Ladder Mix and Mega

[Jajoken]

Er, what? Gogoat doesn't provide cleric support. (Meganium has Aromatherapy) Its Physical bulk is also noticeably worse (I calced it and everything, both invested and uninvested, and it loses), and MnM is slanted toward Physical threats overall for myriad reasons. Dragon Tail is also useful for forcing out the myriad Magic Bouncers, which are more consistently found than Fairies on teams -stall teams are essentially guaranteed to have a Sablenite abuser, while offensive teams frequently run Diancite or Absolite (Or both), whereas the defensive Fairy Mega Stone (Audinite) has a useless Ability and the offensive one (Altarianite) is in close competition with Pinsirite -and Fairy as a base typing is actually somewhat uncommon, as a lot of Fairies are leaning heavily on their Abilities to be so relevant in Standard and lose out in Mnm as a result. (eg Clefable's access to Magic Guard and Unaware is irrelevant, Azumarill is basically only good with Huge/Pure Power Mega Stones, Gardevoir classically leans on its Mega's access to Pixilate which is now available to fast Boombursters...) Roar as a phazing effect is much less reliable than Dragon Tail in MnM, Accuracy aside.

If you check the calculator, Meganium has an NU set, just like Gogoat.

Meganium fills a unique niche. Whether that unique niche is a relevant and worthwhile one is the question, not whether Meganium has a unique niche or not.

I pulled Gogoat out of a hat because there are a million Grass types and all of them are better than Meganium, but I was unaware I had to find one that was a cleric AND a phazer, so I guess you got me there, Meganium is the only Grass type that fulfills that role. Though I don't know WHY anyone would specifically need a Grass type Heal Bell/Aromatherapy + Dragon Tail user in one slot. If you don't need that, Lickilicky can run Heal Bell + Dragon Tail but also lacks Grass type's many weaknesses, is much bulkier, a little stronger, can Wish pass and can run weird shit like Explosion if you want (literally the only Magic Bounce user on the viability ranking that Meganium does better at phazing that I could find is Calm Mind Absolite Keldeo, and I don't even know if people use that). If you're only looking for Dragon Tail, Goodra and Milotic are better. I won't even name all the better clerics and Grass types.

At this point I have to ask -- is a niche that small all it takes to get ranked? Like if I told you there was a Pokémon that provided a useful Dragon immunity, resists Pinsirite E-speed, has multiple forms of switch priority, can paralyze foes through Magic Bounce without utilizing a Mold Breaker stone, and outpaces any max speed base 100 Pokémon, would you rank it? Because I just described Dedenne, another resident of PU's E rank. Pretty much everything has a "niche" except Unown and NFEs but there's no reason to acknowledge them as niches if they don't actually matter.

 

[FOZ369]

Viability rankings were FINALLY fixed yesterday to reflect a more updated state from last omotm (Ghoul King had started editing outdated rankings). Everything should be up to date now. With that being said:

Changes

Zygarde A+ --> S

Mew S --> A+

Nominations

Mew A+ --> A

Weavile A --> A+

Entei A --> A+

Keldeo A- --> A

Skarmory A- --> A

Latios A- --> B+

Metagross A --> A-

Diggersby A- --> B+

Excadrill A- --> B+

Blaziken B+ --> B

Snorlax B+ --> B

Slowking B+ --> B

Jirachi B+ --> A-


Note that all of these are nominations and up for discussion!

If you want to make other noms, please do, because these rankings need to be a reflection of the community's opinion, not mine or anybody else's.

I believe that Mew is good at A+ right now. Mainly because of Sablenite. It's not a recommended stone for Mew on the VR yet, but I see it so much. In my opinion, it's Mew's best stone. Sablenite Mew with Calm Mind and WoW is cancer (couldn't find a better word to describe it sorry). I put Haze on my Vaporeon initially just to counter this.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Coil and Dragon Dance blow Howl out of the water. Zygarde isn't terrified of Stealth Rock. Zygarde's movepool, though lackluster, is less lackluster than Entei's -I personally run Dragon Tail (to screw with expected switches) and Superpower. (Primarily to beat weakened Blissey that think they can switch in safely, but I also use it to beat myriad Blue Orbs Steel types and the like)

Entei's access to Sacred Fire is nice, but it's hardwalled by

-Blue Orb Ferrothorn

-Red Orb Hippowdon

-Indeed, pretty much any vaguely bulky Red Orber ignores it

-Blue Orb Skarmory (Really, Blue Orb Steel types in general)

etc. Altarianite Entei particularly struggles against literally every Fire type ever, especially Heatran, which is neutral to Stone Edge. Pinsirite Entei doesn't have that problem so much (Still struggles against Heatran, though), but the vulnerability to Stealth Rock is heinous, making it difficult to actually switch Entei in to deal with threats and demanding you provide it a lot of support to keep it relevant.

Zygarde cannot be hardwalled by anything -Latiosite Heatran? Superpower-ed. Blue Orb Ferrothorn? Superpower-ed. Red Orb Hippowdon? Earthquake-ed. Steel/Flying is the only type that really gives Zygarde consistent trouble, and Blue Orb Skarmory is way more of a problem for Entei than Zygarde.

The primary advantages Entei has are both basically anti-meta -that it's not nearly as scared of Glalitite as Zygarde is (Glalitite is run primary to beat Zygarde, in my experience) and it can outright beat enemy Altarianite Pokemon when carrying Altarianite because it resists Fairy and they don't/are vulnerable outright. Sacred Fire is useful, but teams can completely neuter its utility, and Entei's painfully shallow movepool gives it trouble.



Er, what? Gogoat doesn't provide cleric support. (Meganium has Aromatherapy) Its Physical bulk is also noticeably worse (I calced it and everything, both invested and uninvested, and it loses), and MnM is slanted toward Physical threats overall for myriad reasons. Dragon Tail is also useful for forcing out the myriad Magic Bouncers, which are more consistently found than Fairies on teams -stall teams are essentially guaranteed to have a Sablenite abuser, while offensive teams frequently run Diancite or Absolite (Or both), whereas the defensive Fairy Mega Stone (Audinite) has a useless Ability and the offensive one (Altarianite) is in close competition with Pinsirite -and Fairy as a base typing is actually somewhat uncommon, as a lot of Fairies are leaning heavily on their Abilities to be so relevant in Standard and lose out in Mnm as a result. (eg Clefable's access to Magic Guard and Unaware is irrelevant, Azumarill is basically only good with Huge/Pure Power Mega Stones, Gardevoir classically leans on its Mega's access to Pixilate which is now available to fast Boombursters...) Roar as a phazing effect is much less reliable than Dragon Tail in MnM, Accuracy aside.

If you check the calculator, Meganium has an NU set, just like Gogoat.

Meganium fills a unique niche. Whether that unique niche is a relevant and worthwhile one is the question, not whether Meganium has a unique niche or not.



My only personal commentary is that I'm not sure why Keldeo is so high. Red Orb's presence hurts it a lot, and no Mega Stone particularly helps it escape this problem or provides it some other niche. I guess Absolite makes the Substitute/Calm Mind builds better, but it's also vulnerable to 2 out of 3 -atespeeds -the more common two, in fact- and its limited coverage makes it predictable, especially since it can't use a Mega Stone to meaningfully resolve this issue. (It lacks Hyper Voice/a similar -ateable move, among other points)

Keldeo is good because its fast and can 2hko pdon, the main red orb, with Pidgeotite focus blast or Lucarionite secret sword (after rocks/any chip/modest).
It can nuke with blue orb, (which lets it at least revenge red orb), and it can make Victini miserable if it tries to switch in with an hp of your choice.
Personally I like entei, simply because it beats Zygarde. I think it is at least equally good, because not only can Zygarde not beat Entei, it also has an even worse starting type. The movepool and running adamant hurts, though- it really does.

I pulled Gogoat out of a hat because there are a million Grass types and all of them are better than Meganium, but I was unaware I had to find one that was a cleric AND a phazer, so I guess you got me there, Meganium is the only Grass type that fulfills that role. Though I don't know WHY anyone would specifically need a Grass type Heal Bell/Aromatherapy + Dragon Tail user in one slot. If you don't need that, Lickilicky can run Heal Bell + Dragon Tail but also lacks Grass type's many weaknesses, is much bulkier, a little stronger, can Wish pass and can run weird shit like Explosion if you want (literally the only Magic Bounce user on the viability ranking that Meganium does better at phazing that I could find is Calm Mind Absolite Keldeo, and I don't even know if people use that). If you're only looking for Dragon Tail, Goodra and Milotic are better. I won't even name all the better clerics and Grass types.

At this point I have to ask -- is a niche that small all it takes to get ranked? Like if I told you there was a Pokémon that provided a useful Dragon immunity, resists Pinsirite E-speed, has multiple forms of switch priority, can paralyze foes through Magic Bounce without utilizing a Mold Breaker stone, and outpaces any max speed base 100 Pokémon, would you rank it? Because I just described Dedenne, another resident of PU's E rank. Pretty much everything has a "niche" except Unown and NFEs but there's no reason to acknowledge them as niches if they don't actually matter.

I use CM Absolite Keldeo. Also how does Manaphy phaze? Or Hoopa-U?
Still, the point is well taken.




Also I suppose this is an object lesson as to why you do not store replays *in* a thread.

 

[Deck Knight]

Going to make an odd request:

Since Marowak has an unique item that acts like Huge/Pure Power for it (Thick Club), it should have access to Mawilite and Medichamite. What would make Marowak useful in the meta? It would have the best post-Mega Atk out of all users, has fairly good initial defense, a unique typing for an HP/PP user, a competent STAB two-hit attack to break through Substitutes, can set SR, and has a very wide physical coverage movepool.

btw. I've also been having fun using a Manectite Blissey. Intimidating Blissey is funny and has enough durability to switch in many times in a match.

 

[sin(pi)]

Going to make an odd request:

Since Marowak has an unique item that acts like Huge/Pure Power for it (Thick Club), it should have access to Mawilite and Medichamite. What would make Marowak useful in the meta? It would have the best post-Mega Atk out of all users, has fairly good initial defense, a unique typing for an HP/PP user, a competent STAB two-hit attack to break through Substitutes, can set SR, and has a very wide physical coverage movepool.

This was addressed a couple of pages ago, Ghoul King's reply:

Not happening. I like your logic, but the premise is intended to be simple, and that's a complication to open the way for a single Pokemon/Mega Stone combination.

 

[thdhted]

That, and Marowak still suffers from a pitiful Speed and mediocre Sp. Defense. It might wallbreak okay, but I doubt it'll be any good.

i can respect this argument. and i agree after realizing zygarde gets superpower that its def S ranked. i still feel that people fail to realize hazards are pretty easy to avoid in mix and mega as defoggers and bouncers are manditory and subconsiously put in respectively. so yeah, i can respect entei going into A+ so pinsirite entei isnt as nearly bad as it seems. especially when its only 2x weak on switchin. but yeah, i agree, S rank is a bit too much for entei, and im fine with A or A+ for it really.

I'd also like to point out that while hazards are a bit difficult to get up due to magic bouncers, KEEPING them up is actually pretty easy. You underestimate the ability of a highly aggressive team to pressure another to the point where attempting to defog can result in a sweeper setting up safely or just the Defogger dying before getting to remove hazards. The other problem is that people heavily rely on their Magic Bouncer to prevent hazards from going up, and if an opponent removes said Magic Bouncer, hazards become a breeze to keep up.

For example, I have a Sticky Web team that's been reasonably successful, Red Orb Raikou makes it really really hard to get a Defogger in safely, and even if the Defog is successful, Banetite Shuckle can simply come back in a set up more hazards.

I'd also like to point out that speed control playstyles (Sticky Web and Trick Room) as several people have pointed out, are VERY powerful, as many offensive teams rely on fast attackers, and the speed drop/speed reversal of SW/TR makes many slowish wallbreakers terrifying sweepers. For example, Cameruptite Victini and Altarianite Lano-T are frickin' terrifying with speed control, able to demolish unprepared teams with ease.

 

[TheFilthiestCasual]

I feel like Gyaradosite Aerodactyl deserves a ranking. Maybe somewhere around B or B-.

Gyaradosite gives it the fastest Moldbreaker Stealth Rocks in the game, as well as STAB on Crunch and the ability to EQ Latiasite Heatran. The lack of a speed boost isn't a problem since its innate speed is high enough to outpace almost everything pre-mega-evolution and a lot of things post-mega-evolution, while the added attack power, bulk, and loss of SR weakness helps it stay useful after setting up. It also has access to Taunt, Defog, Roost, Tailwind, and STAB Pursuit.

 

[Leavannydewd123]

Banettite Celebi
Celebi@Banettite
adamant
252hp,252atk,4spe
T-wave
recover
seed bomb
zen headbutt
Had a lot of success with this, sure it can be improved

 

[Ghoul King]

I pulled Gogoat out of a hat because there are a million Grass types and all of them are better than Meganium, but I was unaware I had to find one that was a cleric AND a phazer, so I guess you got me there, Meganium is the only Grass type that fulfills that role. Though I don't know WHY anyone would specifically need a Grass type Heal Bell/Aromatherapy + Dragon Tail user in one slot. If you don't need that, Lickilicky can run Heal Bell + Dragon Tail but also lacks Grass type's many weaknesses, is much bulkier, a little stronger, can Wish pass and can run weird shit like Explosion if you want (literally the only Magic Bounce user on the viability ranking that Meganium does better at phazing that I could find is Calm Mind Absolite Keldeo, and I don't even know if people use that). If you're only looking for Dragon Tail, Goodra and Milotic are better. I won't even name all the better clerics and Grass types.

At this point I have to ask -- is a niche that small all it takes to get ranked? Like if I told you there was a Pokémon that provided a useful Dragon immunity, resists Pinsirite E-speed, has multiple forms of switch priority, can paralyze foes through Magic Bounce without utilizing a Mold Breaker stone, and outpaces any max speed base 100 Pokémon, would you rank it? Because I just described Dedenne, another resident of PU's E rank. Pretty much everything has a "niche" except Unown and NFEs but there's no reason to acknowledge them as niches if they don't actually matter.

Let me reframe my point:

If your opinion is that Meganium is sufficiently bad that it's unlikely to be worth using no matter what unique qualities it has, then say that. I'm not disputing that opinion, because it's an opinion, one I have no particular opinion on myself.

Do not say that some other thing does its job better without bothering to check if Meganium has any noteworthy moves the other thing doesn't. I'm disputing your choice of comparison point because they're flat-out ignoring the notable unique traits of Meganium -Meganium can fill a niche that nothing else can beat it out at. Again, the question is whether that niche is worthwhile, not whether it exists.

Additionally, your Dedenne comparison point involves a misleading statement: resisting Pinsirite Extreme Speed is meaningless if your stats are so low you're OHKOed by it anyway.

I will say that I don't know why you'd want Sablenite Meganium -personally, I'd assume Slowbronite would be the logical thing to go for on your Spore-immune wall-y thing that can clear Toxic etc, given that powder immunity is redundant with Magic Bounce outside of Mold Breaker- particularly given Sablenite has so many good things to run it on that it seems a waste to put it on Meganium. Sablenite Meganium does, indeed, seem overall inferior to Lickilicky unless you want, I dunno, Leech Seed too for some reason, but Slowbronite Meganium actually seems potentially uniquely useful to me. Maybe Aggronite, though that's another hotly contested Mega Stone. (Part of why Slowbronite seems notable to me as a Meganium Mega Stone is that it's one of the more niche Mega Stones that isn't actively hampered by a bad trait or an overly specialized Ability eg Sharpedonite is unappealing if you don't have any moves Strong Jaws benefits)

Keldeo is good because its fast and can 2hko pdon, the main red orb, with Pidgeotite focus blast or Lucarionite secret sword (after rocks/any chip/modest).
It can nuke with blue orb, (which lets it at least revenge red orb), and it can make Victini miserable if it tries to switch in with an hp of your choice.
Personally I like entei, siply because it beats Zygarde. I think it is at least equally good, because not only can Zygarde not beat Entei, it also has an even worse starting type. The movepool and running adamant hurts, though- it really does.

Entei beating Zygarde is actually shaky.

252+ Atk Pixilate Entei (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde (Altarianite): 302-356 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde (Altarianite) Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei (Altarianite): 362-428 (97.5 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Dragon Dance Altarianite Zygarde with Earthquake (Or Stone Edge) will beat Altarianite Entei switching in on the Dragon Dance. If it's Pinsirite Entei, Entei can't even get the 2HKO anymore and can be taken down by Stone Edge in one hit or Dragon Claw in two hits, assuming it didn't switch into Stealth Rock. In general, Entei can't really directly switch into Zygarde. (Not that Zygarde is really all that safe at switch into Entei)

In practice, Entei beats Zygarde in only some fairly narrow situations, and it has much more hatred for being forced to switch out -if Stealth Rock is up on both sides, even if we pretend Entei does beat Zygarde outright, if Zygarde has a safe switch (Which is easy) then Entei switching into Zygarde inevitably results in Entei's death well before Zygarde.

Keldeo being able to beat Primal Groudon is noteworthy I guess, but it's also shaky -bulky Adamant Primal Groudon can survive any one hit and has a chance of a OHKO with Precipice Blades. You also are useless against Red Orb Ghost -don't laugh, Red Orb Gourgeist is a thing and actually decent- and just generally run into so many cases where you're useless or close enough, matchup-wise.

I dunno, MnM just strikes me as one of the rare metas where Keldeo suffers far more than it gains, and while I realize it's S-rank in OU (Or was, last I heard) so any rank other than S is a drop relative to OU, I just have difficulty imagining it in A- rank, where the rank of A is described as having "few flaws" and being able to "sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame". It's got serious flaws that apply quite consistently, and frankly everything nice about it I can think of/that's been stated by other people is pretty much directly one-upped by Absolite Manaphy. I guess it resists Stealth Rock and Manaphy doesn't?

 

[Jajoken]

Let me reframe my point:

If your opinion is that Meganium is sufficiently bad that it's unlikely to be worth using no matter what unique qualities it has, then say that. I'm not disputing that opinion, because it's an opinion, one I have no particular opinion on myself.

Do not say that some other thing does its job better without bothering to check if Meganium has any noteworthy moves the other thing doesn't. I'm disputing your choice of comparison point because they're flat-out ignoring the notable unique traits of Meganium -Meganium can fill a niche that nothing else can beat it out at. Again, the question is whether that niche is worthwhile, not whether it exists.

Additionally, your Dedenne comparison point involves a misleading statement: resisting Pinsirite Extreme Speed is meaningless if your stats are so low you're OHKOed by it anyway.

I will say that I don't know why you'd want Sablenite Meganium -personally, I'd assume Slowbronite would be the logical thing to go for on your Spore-immune wall-y thing that can clear Toxic etc, given that powder immunity is redundant with Magic Bounce outside of Mold Breaker- particularly given Sablenite has so many good things to run it on that it seems a waste to put it on Meganium. Sablenite Meganium does, indeed, seem overall inferior to Lickilicky unless you want, I dunno, Leech Seed too for some reason, but Slowbronite Meganium actually seems potentially uniquely useful to me. Maybe Aggronite, though that's another hotly contested Mega Stone. (Part of why Slowbronite seems notable to me as a Meganium Mega Stone is that it's one of the more niche Mega Stones that isn't actively hampered by a bad trait or an overly specialized Ability eg Sharpedonite is unappealing if you don't have any moves Strong Jaws benefits)

The reason I've been assuming Sablenite is that it's listed first in the viability ranking -- no other reason.

Last I'll say on the matter...my original question is: why was this thing ranked? It's phazing capability was brought up which it had over Shaymin, something I didn't consider, so I found other Grass phazers that I felt would do a better job. Then it was brought up that Dragon Tail works better for phazing Magic Bounce users, something I hadn't considered but is a very valid point, and that it was to be a phazer AND cleric, a combination that isn't often seen due to a lack of moveslots. So I found other Dragon Tail users/clerics that could also fit the bill. I'm not ignoring Meganium's traits in the metagame -- I didn't know if it had any traits in the metagame, hence why I asked why it was ranked in the first place. The answers I've been given hasn't swayed my original skepticism of it being ranked, as in each case I found better options.

It's not a question of having no niche, but more of Donphan OU dispute. Even the biggest Donphan haters around acknowledge it has a combination of things that only it can do -- but all those traits are done significantly better individually in other Pokemon (Excadrill, Hippowdown, Mamoswine), so despite having a "niche" of being the only Pokemon with that combination, the combination itself is not especially useful except in poorly built teams that need significant role compression in one slot. That's what Meganium seems like to me: like you already had 5 members but you were missing a Water resist, a way to deal with Magic Bounce setup sweepers and a way to mitigate your weakness to status, just like people would consider using Donphan if they already had a lot of Fighting weaknesses but still needed a Rapid Spinner and Volt Switch blocker along with a way to revenge kill double dance Lando-T after it has taken some damage. The correct option in that scenario is to rework your team, not settle for something like Meganium or Donphan.

tl;dr -- Meganium has a niche, but that niche is irrelevant. D --> Unranked

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Entei beating Zygarde is actually shaky.

252+ Atk Pixilate Entei (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde (Altarianite): 302-356 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde (Altarianite) Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei (Altarianite): 362-428 (97.5 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Dragon Dance Altarianite Zygarde with Earthquake (Or Stone Edge) will beat Altarianite Entei switching in on the Dragon Dance. If it's Pinsirite Entei, Entei can't even get the 2HKO anymore and can be taken down by Stone Edge in one hit or Dragon Claw in two hits, assuming it didn't switch into Stealth Rock. In general, Entei can't really directly switch into Zygarde. (Not that Zygarde is really all that safe at switch into Entei)

In practice, Entei beats Zygarde in only some fairly narrow situations, and it has much more hatred for being forced to switch out -if Stealth Rock is up on both sides, even if we pretend Entei does beat Zygarde outright, if Zygarde has a safe switch (Which is easy) then Entei switching into Zygarde inevitably results in Entei's death well before Zygarde.

Keldeo being able to beat Primal Groudon is noteworthy I guess, but it's also shaky -bulky Adamant Primal Groudon can survive any one hit and has a chance of a OHKO with Precipice Blades. You also are useless against Red Orb Ghost -don't laugh, Red Orb Gourgeist is a thing and actually decent- and just generally run into so many cases where you're useless or close enough, matchup-wise.

I dunno, MnM just strikes me as one of the rare metas where Keldeo suffers far more than it gains, and while I realize it's S-rank in OU (Or was, last I heard) so any rank other than S is a drop relative to OU, I just have difficulty imagining it in A- rank, where the rank of A is described as having "few flaws" and being able to "sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame". It's got serious flaws that apply quite consistently, and frankly everything nice about it I can think of/that's been stated by other people is pretty much directly one-upped by Absolite Manaphy. I guess it resists Stealth Rock and Manaphy doesn't?

Well, I would say the situations in which Zygarde beats Entei is rather narrower, but that is a good point. Still, it should be recognized that even though Entei takes more damage from rocks, Zygarde suffers more (the first time) because it is now ohko'd. Speaking of which, I got this calc:
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 318-374 (88.8 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

screenshot

Entei's sacred fire is not to be underestimated either. If it weren't for blue orb steels, that would be enough fo s-rank easily, but they do exist. As it is, Entei has to rely on the mediocre bulldoze to hit them. If Zygarde is s rank, however, Entei should definitely be A+.

Keldeo does largely lose out this meta, but it had a long way to go. While (nonmega) Jellicent or red orb Gourgeist or what have you do wall you, that didn't stop it in standard. With Absolite, its a Manaphy that beats Manaphy- despite lacking tail glow, it has more starting power, better speed, and can still beat Blissey with secret sword.
With Lucarionite, it hits like a truck and can outspeed the entire unevolved meta (speed ties crobat/jolteon but w/e). You cant switch in, and its almost guaranteed a kill unless they majorly outpredict.
With blue orb, it hits even more like a truck and can even power through resists.
With Pidgeotite, it gets insane power, high bp stabs, and can run amok through their team.

Basically, it can, in fact, sweep/kill a large portion of the meta. Maybe not as much Hoopa or Gengar or Thundy, but its only in A-. In fact, it really even stands out among that rank- its easily better than Mamoswine or Excadril or Diggersby.
While I can definitely see why it isn't higher, its pretty good where it is. At most, I would suggest dropping it to B+.

 

[Funbot28]

Some opinions on the noms:

Disagree

Mew is still one of the most versatile mons in the meta, being able to act as a wallbreaker, stallbreaker, sweeper, hazard setter / remover, etc... There are plenty viable stones that it can run, which makes it so unpredictable and valuable to any team. The introduction of Hoopa-U may of made it lose some viability, but still it is one of the most meta defining pokemon, and it should not drop below A+ imo. The only argument I hear people say that it takes up a mega slot that other mons can run better, but that is very subjective and not true in some cases (Ampharosite, Sablenite, etc..) Keep it at A+.

Agree

Weavile is one of the best wallbreakers in the meta, and I could see it go to A+. Dark/Ice is amazing offensively and it can beat some of the most powerful threats in the tier in Zygarde, Gengar and Mew quite easily. Refridgerate is just that good and it let's it hit soo many mons for much more damage compared to regular OU. The only drawback it has is that it has low defenses leaving it weak to priority and it can't really use Knock Off, and has to suffice with Nigh Slash and Pursuit. Rise to A+.

Agree

Entei is another amazing wallbreaker, that can really destroy offense with -ate speed. It is one of the better wallbreakers in the tier, and can easily face up against certain threats that can trouble your team (however it loses to P-Don and Manaphy). Fire + Fairy or Flying are both great offensively, and it has a niche over other wallbreakers due to it not being able to get burned. Stealth Rock is much more easier to deflect thanks to Diancite, Abssolite and Sablenite everywhere and it can actually sweep with Howl. It's coverage is not the best, but most of the time it's spamming Extreme Speed and Sacred Fire anyways. Rise to A+, but not S.

Agree

I have been using Lucarionite Keldeo for quite some time now, and I think I can say that it is such a huge threat thanks to it's amazing STABs in conjunction with Adaptability. Ya it gets walled by Red Orb users in Victini] and Groudon, but so does Manaphy and Keldeo can at least deal significant damage with STAB Secret Sword. It also deals with Dark-types such as Weavile and Bisharp that can rip through many offensive teams. I feel that it is too powerful to be in A- even though there may be some answers to it. Rise to A.

Agree

It's not to say that Metagross is bad, but I just feel that it's slightly outclassed by other -ate stone users in Landorus-T, Entei and Gyarados. Using up that specific mega stone can really limit your team in terms of not being able to run a more viable replacement (as some of them have good boosting moves that can actually sweep). It's still a huge threat, but I think A is a bit to high for it atm. Drop to A-.

No PMD icon :(

Agree

Diggersby has the potential to be amazing, with Medichamite boosting it's Atk and Spe, but I feel the boosts are not enough to face off against the current meta. 98 Spe is not the best, and it often forces Diggersby to be revenged killed by a handful of offensive pokemon (Gengar, Entei and Thundurus-I to name a few). It is arguably the heaviest hitter of the format (literally 2HKOing everything), but it still remains to be a glass canon with average speed. It's nice against stall and balance, but not offense (which dominates MnM). Drop to B+.

I do not have enough experience with the other noms to have full opinions.

P.S Kllingklang still not ranked and no Manaphy suspect yet.... Me very sad :(

 

[FlameUser64]

Correct behavior.

Actually, according to the premise as is stated in the OP and as was stated in the OP of the original thread, it is not correct behaviour. The rules only say:

— Mawilite and Medichamite may not be held by any Pokémon other than Mawile, Medicham, Azumarill, and Diggersby.

The reasoning given for this is

(all have access to Huge Power/Pure Power in Standard)

but that's entirely separate to the rule itself. Also note that the reasoning only says that those Pokémon can use them because they have access to Huge Power and Pure Power, not that they have to actually have one of those two abilities.

 

[Ghoul King]

The reason I've been assuming Sablenite is that it's listed first in the viability ranking -- no other reason.

I was actually agreeing with you that Sablenite being in the Viability Rankings for it is puzzling.

Last I'll say on the matter...my original question is: why was this thing ranked? It's phazing capability was brought up which it had over Shaymin, something I didn't consider, so I found other Grass phazers that I felt would do a better job. Then it was brought up that Dragon Tail works better for phazing Magic Bounce users, something I hadn't considered but is a very valid point, and that it was to be a phazer AND cleric, a combination that isn't often seen due to a lack of moveslots. So I found other Dragon Tail users/clerics that could also fit the bill. I'm not ignoring Meganium's traits in the metagame -- I didn't know if it had any traits in the metagame, hence why I asked why it was ranked in the first place. The answers I've been given hasn't swayed my original skepticism of it being ranked, as in each case I found better options.

It's not a question of having no niche, but more of Donphan OU dispute. Even the biggest Donphan haters around acknowledge it has a combination of things that only it can do -- but all those traits are done significantly better individually in other Pokemon (Excadrill, Hippowdown, Mamoswine), so despite having a "niche" of being the only Pokemon with that combination, the combination itself is not especially useful except in poorly built teams that need significant role compression in one slot. That's what Meganium seems like to me: like you already had 5 members but you were missing a Water resist, a way to deal with Magic Bounce setup sweepers and a way to mitigate your weakness to status, just like people would consider using Donphan if they already had a lot of Fighting weaknesses but still needed a Rapid Spinner and Volt Switch blocker along with a way to revenge kill double dance Lando-T after it has taken some damage. The correct option in that scenario is to rework your team, not settle for something like Meganium or Donphan.

tl;dr -- Meganium has a niche, but that niche is irrelevant. D --> Unranked

Eeeh, now you're tempting me to try out Slowbronite Meganium and see how well it actually works. Honestly, a phazing cleric that can't be Spored by Banettite Breloom and laughs at its attacks because Slowbronite sounds like a pretty cool 'mon to me. Banettite Breloom is legitimately something of a monster.

I have been using Lucarionite Keldeo for quite some time now, and I think I can say that it is such a huge threat thanks to it's amazing STABs in conjunction with Adaptability. Ya it gets walled by Red Orb users in Victini] and Groudon, but so does Manaphy and Keldeo can at least deal significant damage with STAB Secret Sword. It also deals with Dark-types such as Weavile and Bisharp that can rip through many offensive teams. I feel that it is too powerful to be in A- even though there may be some answers to it. Rise to A.

Er, in what universe is Manaphy walled by Primal Groudon?

+3 252 SpA Manaphy (Absolite) Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 283-333 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy (Absolite): 274-324 (80.3 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Victini is closer, since it has an Ice resist, and for instance Red Orb Togekiss is a pain for it, but Manaphy steamrolls a number of Red Orb users (eg Hippowdon), and Red Orb Togekiss is the only one of the top of my head that has recovery and walls the Scald/Ice Beam/Energy Ball classic trifecta. (In fact, even at +6 Manaphy can't 2HKO it with anything if Togekiss is running Specially Defensive)

Lucarionite Keldeo, meanwhile, is hard-walled by Red Orb Hippowdon (And if you try to Calm Mind it just Whirlwinds you out)

252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo (Lucarionite) Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon (Red Orb): 126-150 (30 - 35.7%) -- 35% chance to 3HKO

which is a very solid wall in MnM, among other things that are not simply "answers" to Keldeo but render it a liability until they are removed -which is itself a difficult feat.

P.S Kllingklang still not ranked and no Manaphy suspect yet.... Me very sad :([/Hide]

We are currently in the process of reworking the council. Have patience.

Keldeo does largely lose out this meta, but it had a long way to go. While (nonmega) Jellicent or red orb Gourgeist or what have you do wall you, that didn't stop it in standard.

In Standard there's one whole Pokemon in the entire meta that hard-walls it, which it can outright run Hidden Power Ghost as coverage for. MnM has several solid Red Orb walls that wall/kill it (Hippowdon, Togekiss, Gourgeist, Venusaur... I'm sure I'm forgetting others), and Talonflame has been replaced with -atespeed for priority murdering it. Keldeo doesn't have nearly the capacity to account for its flaws as it does in Standard, and indeed loses out points like being able to almost universally laugh at "checks" because they can't risk the Scald Burn chance, as Red Orb users eliminate Scald outright. No one Hidden Power lets it push past Red Orbers, either.

Actually, according to the premise as is stated in the OP and as was stated in the OP of the original thread, it is not correct behaviour. The rules only say:

The reasoning given for this is but that's entirely separate to the rule itself. Also note that the reasoning only says that those Pokémon can use them because they have access to Huge Power and Pure Power, not that they have to actually have one of those two abilities.

Been over it with The Immortal, don't see any reason to modify the behavior.

 

[FlameUser64]

Been over it with The Immortal, don't see any reason to modify the behavior.

I do. The current behaviour is in conflict with the premise of the meta. That should be reason enough.

If you want me to get subjective about it for whatever reason, I can point out that Azumarill being able to have Sap Sipper pre-Mega could be very useful for grabbing switch-ins and potentially improve its viability. Also, with the current behaviour, wouldn't that mean that Mawile is incapable of using Medichamite? Whether or not Medichamite Mawile is at all viable (it almost certainly isn't), that's still a Pokémon being restricted from a Mega Stone they are not supposed to be restricted from.

Edit: It's one thing if a suggestion would modify the premise of the meta, as is the case with Thick Club and access to certain Mega Stones, or allowing NFEs to use Mega Stones, or barring a non-Ubers Pokémon from Mega Evolving. But when the behaviour on the sim is in conflict with the meta's premise, that needs to be fixed on principle no matter how inconsequential it may seem.

In this case, barring Thick Fat Azumarill or Sap Sipper Azumarill from using Mawilite or Medichamite is a baseless complex ban. Barring Telepathy Medicham from using Mawilite is a second baseless complex ban. Barring Pickup Diggersby or Cheek Pouch Diggersby from using Mawilite or Medichamite is a third baseless complex ban. The fact that Telepathy is useless in singles and Pickup and Cheek Pouch are inherently useless when holding a Mega Stone is utterly irrelevant to this. If Azumarill's other abilities were inherently useless then it might be irrelevant in practice even if not in theory, but they aren't.

 

[sin(pi)]

On the subject of Manaphy - it beats 252/0 Pdon on a roll (62.5% chance to OHKO) with HP Ground or Grass Knot. HP ground allows you to bop Red Orb 'tini:
+3 252 SpA Manaphy (Absolite) Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 344-406 (100.8 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
while GK gives a stronger hit on most water types (not on opposing Manaphy, though, as its BP is just 20), so it's a question of what worries your team the most.
AllJokesAside might be able to add to this, he's the one who told me about running GK.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Tbh Skarmory should be A+ rank, or atleast the same rank as Blissey. Together they pretty much Blanket check 75% of the Metagame - Skarmory handling most of the -ates, notably Zygarde, Entei, Arcanine and to a lesser extent(and depending on their set) Weavile, Cobalion, Metagross, Archenops and a bunch others, if you want to handle the ladder more effectively than the former, Sablenite is always an option. Tbh, Blissey and Skarmory might be the forth and fifth best pokemon in the tier - after Manaphy, don and Zygarde. So I definitely think they should be A+ or even S. Very effective together, with almost nothing countering them both!

Entei is fine in A+, it shares the same problem that Zygarde does in that it's not horribly difficult to counter but it's still a very consistent pokemon in the tier, usage alone should point you in the right direction. But it's not S, it's very predictable as its best set is Altarinite(A+) or Pinsirite (A). Consistent and good.

Going to make an odd request:

Since Marowak has an unique item that acts like Huge/Pure Power for it (Thick Club), it should have access to Mawilite and Medichamite. What would make Marowak useful in the meta? It would have the best post-Mega Atk out of all users, has fairly good initial defense, a unique typing for an HP/PP user, a competent STAB two-hit attack to break through Substitutes, can set SR, and has a very wide physical coverage movepool.

btw. I've also been having fun using a Manectite Blissey. Intimidating Blissey is funny and has enough durability to switch in many times in a match.

Already been rejected - we do not want to complex ban or unban.

Other than that - Slowbronite(and maybe Sablenite) are both bulkier than Manectite Blissey.

Where was I, oh yeah.

Arcanine should drop... A lot. I don't know how this thing is A, it's a B+ pokemon barely. It's painfully outclassed by Entei, it's weak than Entei meaning it misses out on crucial OHKOs that Entei gets. The only thing Arc has over Entei is recovery, which doesn't matter because it's too frail in mix n mega to even reliably recovery - never mind that its either 2x or 4x weak to rocks. If entei and all these other mons that all compete for ate stones didnt exist it would be a lot better. Right now its bad and shouldnt be used.

 

[xJownage]

I believe that Mew is good at A+ right now. Mainly because of Sablenite. It's not a recommended stone for Mew on the VR yet, but I see it so much. In my opinion, it's Mew's best stone. Sablenite Mew with Calm Mind and WoW is cancer (couldn't find a better word to describe it sorry). I put Haze on my Vaporeon initially just to counter this.

Do you really want to use your sablenite slot on mew for your stall/semi-stall team? I personally would want to pass on that, it's the most highly competed-for stone for bulkier mons and is somewhat wasted on Mew's psychic typing and comparatively poorer bulk. That's why Mew is better with Ampharosite, mostly.

I feel like Gyaradosite Aerodactyl deserves a ranking. Maybe somewhere around B or B-.

Gyaradosite gives it the fastest Moldbreaker Stealth Rocks in the game, as well as STAB on Crunch and the ability to EQ Latiasite Heatran. The lack of a speed boost isn't a problem since its innate speed is high enough to outpace almost everything pre-mega-evolution and a lot of things post-mega-evolution, while the added attack power, bulk, and loss of SR weakness helps it stay useful after setting up. It also has access to Taunt, Defog, Roost, Tailwind, and STAB Pursuit.

Not really sure what to do with this, B or B- sounds good for a starting ranking, as Aerodactyl provides a surprising amount of utility - Tyranitar's typing has its drawbacks, however, and that should be noted. I'll discuss it with a few others before confirming this ranking.

I dunno, MnM just strikes me as one of the rare metas where Keldeo suffers far more than it gains, and while I realize it's S-rank in OU (Or was, last I heard) so any rank other than S is a drop relative to OU, I just have difficulty imagining it in A- rank, where the rank of A is described as having "few flaws" and being able to "sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame". It's got serious flaws that apply quite consistently, and frankly everything nice about it I can think of/that's been stated by other people is pretty much directly one-upped by Absolite Manaphy. I guess it resists Stealth Rock and Manaphy doesn't?

Originally, I didn't know if I shared your desire for Keldeo to move down but this statement just made me realize it shouldn't drop. When you add definitions, Keldeo does have "few flaws", not serious ones, considering many top-tier mons have the same flaws it does. Keldeo is a much harder hitter than Manaphy, and Manaphy sweeps, while Keldeo hole-punches. The two aren't remotely relevant to each other based off of roles alone; I don't even need to add anything about one hitting on the physical side with Secret Sword, allowing it to break common skarmbliss cores - the whole reason it became so good in early xy ou to begin with.

The reason I've been assuming Sablenite is that it's listed first in the viability ranking -- no other reason.

Last I'll say on the matter...my original question is: why was this thing ranked? It's phazing capability was brought up which it had over Shaymin, something I didn't consider, so I found other Grass phazers that I felt would do a better job. Then it was brought up that Dragon Tail works better for phazing Magic Bounce users, something I hadn't considered but is a very valid point, and that it was to be a phazer AND cleric, a combination that isn't often seen due to a lack of moveslots. So I found other Dragon Tail users/clerics that could also fit the bill. I'm not ignoring Meganium's traits in the metagame -- I didn't know if it had any traits in the metagame, hence why I asked why it was ranked in the first place. The answers I've been given hasn't swayed my original skepticism of it being ranked, as in each case I found better options.

It's not a question of having no niche, but more of Donphan OU dispute. Even the biggest Donphan haters around acknowledge it has a combination of things that only it can do -- but all those traits are done significantly better individually in other Pokemon (Excadrill, Hippowdown, Mamoswine), so despite having a "niche" of being the only Pokemon with that combination, the combination itself is not especially useful except in poorly built teams that need significant role compression in one slot. That's what Meganium seems like to me: like you already had 5 members but you were missing a Water resist, a way to deal with Magic Bounce setup sweepers and a way to mitigate your weakness to status, just like people would consider using Donphan if they already had a lot of Fighting weaknesses but still needed a Rapid Spinner and Volt Switch blocker along with a way to revenge kill double dance Lando-T after it has taken some damage. The correct option in that scenario is to rework your team, not settle for something like Meganium or Donphan.

tl;dr -- Meganium has a niche, but that niche is irrelevant. D --> Unranked

Seems like you guys discussed this to a definitive answer, so I will remove Meganium at the next update.

Some opinions on the noms:

Mew is still one of the most versatile mons in the meta, being able to act as a wallbreaker, stallbreaker, sweeper, hazard setter / remover, etc... There are plenty viable stones that it can run, which makes it so unpredictable and valuable to any team. The introduction of Hoopa-U may of made it lose some viability, but still it is one of the most meta defining pokemon, and it should not drop below A+ imo. The only argument I hear people say that it takes up a mega slot that other mons can run better, but that is very subjective and not true in some cases (Ampharosite, Sablenite, etc..) Keep it at A+.

I still feel like you don't cover the main argument that was the reason I was asked for it to drop - It's in a situation where it's MUCH more easily overpowered than it was shortly ago. It should've suffered a significant drop when Zap Cannon and Dpunch were first banned, and now, Hoopa-U is extremely common, as are several mons that rip through it. Further complicating is it's lack of ability to switch in on many threats. It often needs to mega evolve to gain the resistances it needs to preform its role. That is a very steep price for using it. Originally, I shared a similar opinion as you did, but it just doesn't fit the A+ mons.

P.S Kllingklang still not ranked and no Manaphy suspect yet.... Me very sad :(

Do me a favor and nom Klinklang for something, as I'm not generally aware of where it should be ranked. I vaguely recall a conversation about its placement on the thread, but don't remember if there was a verdict or what it was. As for the manaphy suspect, good luck with that.

I do. The current behaviour is in conflict with the premise of the meta. That should be reason enough.

If you want me to get subjective about it for whatever reason, I can point out that Azumarill being able to have Sap Sipper pre-Mega could be very useful for grabbing switch-ins and potentially improve its viability. Also, with the current behaviour, wouldn't that mean that Mawile is incapable of using Medichamite? Whether or not Medichamite Mawile is at all viable (it almost certainly isn't), that's still a Pokémon being restricted from a Mega Stone they are not supposed to be restricted from.

Edit: It's one thing if a suggestion would modify the premise of the meta, as is the case with Thick Club and access to certain Mega Stones, or allowing NFEs to use Mega Stones, or barring a non-Ubers Pokémon from Mega Evolving. But when the behaviour on the sim is in conflict with the meta's premise, that needs to be fixed on principle no matter how inconsequential it may seem.

In this case, barring Thick Fat Azumarill or Sap Sipper Azumarill from using Mawilite or Medichamite is a baseless complex ban. Barring Telepathy Medicham from using Mawilite is a second baseless complex ban. Barring Pickup Diggersby or Cheek Pouch Diggersby from using Mawilite or Medichamite is a third baseless complex ban. The fact that Telepathy is useless in singles and Pickup and Cheek Pouch are inherently useless when holding a Mega Stone is utterly irrelevant to this. If Azumarill's other abilities were inherently useless then it might be irrelevant in practice even if not in theory, but they aren't.

Completely agreeing with this.

On the subject of Manaphy - it beats 252/0 Pdon on a roll (62.5% chance to OHKO) with HP Ground or Grass Knot. HP ground allows you to bop Red Orb 'tini:
+3 252 SpA Manaphy (Absolite) Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 344-406 (100.8 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
while GK gives a stronger hit on most water types (not on opposing Manaphy, though, as its BP is just 20), so it's a question of what worries your team the most.
AllJokesAside might be able to add to this, he's the one who told me about running GK.

Hp Ground is a slightly gimmicky but surprisingly effective move for manaphy, I used it slightly last OMotM with mixed results. I was surprised that there were a couple other KOs that HP Ground got that Manaphy couldn't quite get before, but overall it wasn't worth running over GK or Ice Beam.

Tbh Skarmory should be A+ rank, or atleast the same rank as Blissey. Together they pretty much Blanket check 75% of the Metagame - Skarmory handling most of the -ates, notably Zygarde, Entei, Arcanine and to a lesser extent(and depending on their set) Weavile, Cobalion, Metagross, Archenops and a bunch others, if you want to handle the ladder more effectively than the former, Sablenite is always an option. Tbh, Blissey and Skarmory might be the forth and fifth best pokemon in the tier - after Manaphy, don and Zygarde. So I definitely think they should be A+ or even S. Very effective together, with almost nothing countering them both!

Entei is fine in A+, it shares the same problem that Zygarde does in that it's not horribly difficult to counter but it's still a very consistent pokemon in the tier, usage alone should point you in the right direction. But it's not S, it's very predictable as its best set is Altarinite(A+) or Pinsirite (A). Consistent and good.


Already been rejected - we do not want to complex ban or unban.

Other than that - Slowbronite(and maybe Sablenite) are both bulkier than Manectite Blissey.

Where was I, oh yeah.

Arcanine should drop... A lot. I don't know how this thing is A, it's a B+ pokemon barely. It's painfully outclassed by Entei, it's weak than Entei meaning it misses out on crucial OHKOs that Entei gets. The only thing Arc has over Entei is recovery, which doesn't matter because it's too frail in mix n mega to even reliably recovery - never mind that its either 2x or 4x weak to rocks. If entei and all these other mons that all compete for ate stones didnt exist it would be a lot better. Right now its bad and shouldnt be used.

Skarmory could rise to A+, but I would like to see some support from others.

I told you my opinions on arcanine, and its important that this issue gets attention. I feel that arcanine is a far superior pinsirite abuser to Entei, boasting better coverage and significantly more defensive utility. While Entei gets worn down extremely easily, by hazards and otherwise, arcanine can heal off that damage and continue to tank hits. Intimidate also bloats it's actual bulk to make it significantly more bulky than entei - it can actually check things without KOing them with Espeed, unlike Entei, which can't take chip damage because it will most likely get killed quickly after. Altarianite Entei has less of a coverage problem than Pinsirite does, but Arcanine fixes that issue. Another important check that Pinsirite Arcanine gets is the ability to check Double Dance Pdon, a massive threat to offense that often sweeps teams if it gets the chance (most DD Pdon don't run Stone Edge, in my experience).

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

I'm going to disagree on Arcanine. I've been using it for a while (my two most recent teams both have it) and it's been pretty great. It's got the advantage of being able to run Jolly to outspeed Entei, however I don't run that so I won't go into it. Why I think it is worthy of A Rank is that it can defeat some of the common -ate counters. Close Combat allows it to defeat Heatran, while Wild Charge has a 66% chance to 2HKO Blue Orb Skarm w/ Rocks up (guaranteed after 2 rounds of rocks), which no other -ate can claim (Entei has to predict mega or not to beat Heatran and loses to Skarm, while Zyggy can't beat either period). It also has Fire STAB, which puts it even with the other -ates as far as coverage for Steel-types goes.

 

[Funbot28]

Do me a favor and nom Klinklang for something, as I'm not generally aware of where it should be ranked. I vaguely recall a conversation about its placement on the thread, but don't remember if there was a verdict or what it was. As for the manaphy suspect, good luck with that.

Ghoul King Can you update the second post with Jownage's VR? It seems to be the more updated one

I agree with Hoopa-U to A+, due to it's amazing wallbreaking capabilities with Absolite and Diancite (even Manectite to some extent). Yes it's low Defense leaves it suspectible to -ate speed, but when that's out of the way, it can literally destroy teams not running mons above ~130 Speed. Cameprutite is also amazing on TR teams, really having no switchins at all (Ampharosite Mew gets 2HKO'ed by Psychic). Definitely a top tier mon.

Still gonna bring up Zygarde to S

I also have another nomination:

Klingklang Unranked -> C

So I have been testing out Pinsirite Klingklang recently, and it actually is quite good. You may be thinking "why should I use this instead of Cobalion" well the answer is simple, Shift Gear. Shift Gear boosts Klingklang's Atk and Spe simultaneously, which can become very scary for offensive teams thanks to Steel/Flying being great offensively. It lacks coverage and may be underwhelming at times, but I still feel it deserves to be ranked somewhere on the VR, and D would be too low imo. Altarianite also works, but then you get walled by P-Don.

Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-326735157

P.S Cobalion should also raise to like at least A/A+ for the reasons AllJokesAside mentioned earlier, and some more mega stones should be mentioned for some mons.

 

[xJownage]

I'm going to disagree on Arcanine. I've been using it for a while (my two most recent teams both have it) and it's been pretty great. It's got the advantage of being able to run Jolly to outspeed Entei, however I don't run that so I won't go into it. Why I think it is worthy of A Rank is that it can defeat some of the common -ate counters. Close Combat allows it to defeat Heatran, while Wild Charge has a 66% chance to 2HKO Blue Orb Skarm w/ Rocks up (guaranteed after 2 rounds of rocks), which no other -ate can claim (Entei has to predict mega or not to beat Heatran and loses to Skarm, while Zyggy can't beat either period). It also has Fire STAB, which puts it even with the other -ates as far as coverage for Steel-types goes.

It actually outspeeds altarianite Entei with adamant if running pinsirite. Yet another plus. In my opinion, it is a superior pinsirite abuser.

 

[thdhted]

I actually like Pinsirite Entei more than Altarianite.
Of course, I also run Substitute on my set. Which is actually kind of amazing, considering how many switches Entei forces. Lemme put it this way: Your Entei counter now has to break down a Sub and either risk a burn, or get smashed by a return(This is ESPECIALLY effective against PDon and other Red Orbers) while it's overall less effective against Blue Orb users, Substitute actually allows Entei to work around several things that attempt to wall it.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

See, I'm not disagreeing in that Arcanine does the job of a "bulkier" atespeeder better, what I'm saying is that "bulky atespeeder" isn't a role that the metagame needs. For Atespeeders to work to their best abilities they need to maximise their power as Extreme Speed isn't a very powerful move, especially unboosted. I'm not sure what you're running on Arcanine, if you say it's a "bulkier"atespeeder, Morning sun, CC, Flare Blitz, Espeed? If so you'd rarely get a chance to Morning sun and recovery with the tremendous amounts of threats in the metagame, and if you choose to sacrifice power for bulk you might be able to check an unboosted, stab-attacking Primal groudon, provided it doesn't run any of the following moves: Fire blast, stone edge, Rock slide, SD, Roar or Thunder wave.

Or maybe you could counter dragon dance duel Stab Zygarde, provided rocks aren't up... That's a huge part you're overlooking - PinsiriteCane is 4x weak to Stealth rock, effectively cutting its bulk in half.

And to preface this Pinsirite user can almost always with the exception of steel types be replaced by Altarianite - and these are in very, very short demand haha.

TL;DR for arcanine to preform its niche, bulky espeeder it sacrifices bulk which is sorely needed for crucial situations. If it invests in Attack it's again sorely outclassed and now with added opportunity cost for running Altnite/Pinsirite.

For the record, in my opinion the best ate users are Cobalion, Entei and Zygarde :)

 

[FOZ369]

Arcanine should drop... A lot. I don't know how this thing is A, it's a B+ pokemon barely. It's painfully outclassed by Entei, it's weak than Entei meaning it misses out on crucial OHKOs that Entei gets. The only thing Arc has over Entei is recovery, which doesn't matter because it's too frail in mix n mega to even reliably recovery - never mind that its either 2x or 4x weak to rocks. If entei and all these other mons that all compete for ate stones didnt exist it would be a lot better. Right now its bad and shouldnt be used.

You know Akuzuki right? The guy who has constantly been reaching first on the M&M ladder, and is surpassing you(#2) at the moment by 60 points. If you search his username in the replays, and you watch his 3 most recent battles, you'll find out that he replaced his Entei for an Arcanine. I don't know much about how they compare to each other, but that alone makes me believe that Arcanine is not painfully outclassed by Entei. And based on that, I also believe that bulky atespeeder is a role that the metagame needs.

Do you really want to use your sablenite slot on mew for your stall/semi-stall team? I personally would want to pass on that, it's the most highly competed-for stone for bulkier mons and is somewhat wasted on Mew's psychic typing and comparatively poorer bulk. That's why Mew is better with Ampharosite, mostly.

I've actually only seen Sablenite Mew being used on balance teams so far. Like you said, it would kinda be a waste to use your Sablenite on a Mew for a stall team. And to add, 30-50 percent of Mews I've seen on ladder have been running it. Just an observation. Mono psychic is a good defensive typing in M&M because of the lack of knock off/dark type moves, and Sablenite Mew isn't forced to switch out when an Altarianite Mon comes in, unlike Ampharosite Mew.

 

[Ghoul King]

The council has been updated. unfixable and SpartanMalice's prior contributions are appreciated, but due to their relatively low activity in MnM itself they have been replaced with thdhted and Quantum Tesseract. Welcome aboard.

If anybody wants to push suspect ideas, this is the time to do so.

Entei vs Arcanine

Arcanine's big advantage is Close Combat, which lets it beat a few Pokemon Entei can't, most notably Blue Orb Steel types. The ability to heal itself is worth commentary, too, though it's somewhat flawed as Blue Orb is still going to be a common switch-in to it -Blue Orb Scizor can tank anything it does, for instance- and therefore Morning Sun is particularly unreliable as healing goes, but Close Combat is the main thing. The main question is how popular things Arcanine's Close Combat can knock down actually are -Blue Orb Ferrothorn is something it murders that Entei hates, for instance, but if Blue Orb Ferrothorn isn't that popular it's not that big of a deal.

Regardless, Arcanine isn't "Bad Entei".

I do. The current behaviour is in conflict with the premise of the meta. That should be reason enough.

If you want me to get subjective about it for whatever reason, I can point out that Azumarill being able to have Sap Sipper pre-Mega could be very useful for grabbing switch-ins and potentially improve its viability. Also, with the current behaviour, wouldn't that mean that Mawile is incapable of using Medichamite? Whether or not Medichamite Mawile is at all viable (it almost certainly isn't), that's still a Pokémon being restricted from a Mega Stone they are not supposed to be restricted from.

Edit: It's one thing if a suggestion would modify the premise of the meta, as is the case with Thick Club and access to certain Mega Stones, or allowing NFEs to use Mega Stones, or barring a non-Ubers Pokémon from Mega Evolving. But when the behaviour on the sim is in conflict with the meta's premise, that needs to be fixed on principle no matter how inconsequential it may seem.

In this case, barring Thick Fat Azumarill or Sap Sipper Azumarill from using Mawilite or Medichamite is a baseless complex ban. Barring Telepathy Medicham from using Mawilite is a second baseless complex ban. Barring Pickup Diggersby or Cheek Pouch Diggersby from using Mawilite or Medichamite is a third baseless complex ban. The fact that Telepathy is useless in singles and Pickup and Cheek Pouch are inherently useless when holding a Mega Stone is utterly irrelevant to this. If Azumarill's other abilities were inherently useless then it might be irrelevant in practice even if not in theory, but they aren't.

If you want to talk with The Immortal about it, you're free to do so. I'm just not invested either way, is all I'm saying. You're co-creator, if you care and I don't, you can push the topic with the people who implement these decisions.

Originally, I didn't know if I shared your desire for Keldeo to move down but this statement just made me realize it shouldn't drop. When you add definitions, Keldeo does have "few flaws", not serious ones, considering many top-tier mons have the same flaws it does. Keldeo is a much harder hitter than Manaphy, and Manaphy sweeps, while Keldeo hole-punches. The two aren't remotely relevant to each other based off of roles alone; I don't even need to add anything about one hitting on the physical side with Secret Sword, allowing it to break common skarmbliss cores - the whole reason it became so good in early xy ou to begin with.

Absolite Manaphy can break Skarmbliss, too, thanks to Scald's Burn chance letting it grab the 2HKO on Blissey even though it can't get it on raw damage, unless we're positing some bizarre Red Orb Skarmory build. It's not as reliable as Keldeo, but it also breaks Red Orb Hippowdon paired with Blissey, which Keldeo does not, among other examples of powerful defensive cores that Keldeo can't actually break and Manaphy can. Hole-punching isn't very useful if a team can have a 100% reliable switch-in that will always wall you, seeing as how you don't actually get to hole-punch at that point. That strikes me as "Keldeo hole-punches badly designed teams and certain specific defensive cores that aren't necessarily the most common or best defensive cores". That's useful, but it doesn't strike me as A-rank useful.

Most of the Pokemon in S through A- resist one or more -atespeeds (Specifically Fairy or Flying) without being weak to any of them/only weak to Refrigerate Extreme Speed. The exceptions usually either directly overcome that flaw (Glalitite Weavile revenges into -atespeed and Fake Outs) or aren't anything that's going to go face-to-face with -atespeed anyway -or are able to use a Mega Stone to patch up that flaw, and do so as a legitimately viable build. (eg Pinsirite Terrakion removes the Fairy weakness in favor of an Ice weakness) Tornadus, Keldeo, Latios, and Noivern are the only Pokemon currently in the A- and up range that flat-out hate -atespeed and I'd argue that Pidgeotite Tornadus is largely shunted aside by Pidgeotite Gengar, Noivern is much less powerful than it was first thought to be (I honestly think it belongs somewhere in B, maybe even C, as offensive teams and defensive teams alike aren't scared of it), I'm currently arguing that Keldeo isn't that amazing... which leaves Latios, which I'll admit to not being very clear on what people use it for and why, so I have no idea whether it belongs in A or not. (I will comment I almost never see Latios nowadays, which seems odd for a supposedly A-rank Pokemon)

So that's one flaw I don't think is "common on many top-tier 'mons".

I could go on, but I don't want this to turn into a thing so I'll leave it at that until at least the next post.