Metagame NP: RU Stage 14: The Distance (Abomasite and Sharpedo Banned)

[atomicllamas]

The RU council has brought up Abomasite (Mega Abomasnow) and Sharpedo as being deserving of a suspect test. As always, if you'd like to see some in depth reasoning as to why these Pokemon are being suspected, there are some paragraphs below written about why these Pokemon in particular were chosen. The suspect test will last 2 weeks and the deadline will be at 11:59 PM EST on the 23rd of February, assuming the ladder is up by the end of the night.

The requirements for this test will be the same as last time. The reqs will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0 and the suspect test will end/voting will begin exactly two weeks after the date this post was made. Some sample values are below.

GXE N
100 18
90 25
85 32
80 46
78 58
75 91
72 222

To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula
N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)

Mega Abomasnow Reasoning

Mega Abomasnow is an extremely influential pokemon in the ORAS RU metagame that single-handedly limits the form many teams are able to take by requiring them to run specific archetypes or a handful of Pokemon in order to not be succumb to its raw offensive prowess. The main set that allows Mega Abomasnow to do this and what makes it suspect-worthy in RU is a mixed offensive set consisting of Blizzard / Ice Shard / Grass STAB / Coverage. This set allows Abomasnow to apply strong pressure to defensive cores, as good switch-ins to this set are limited in number, generally lack recovery, or must be wary of certain coverage moves. It remains effective (though less so) against offensive teams, due to STAB Ice Shard and the ability to boost its priority move with Swords Dance. This set gives it an additional layer of versatility that makes the few specially bulky Pokemon capable of switching in on the mixed set weary of taking a strong physical hit prior to knowing which of the two sets it's running. Whichever set it chooses, high base power STABs make Mega Abomasnow capable of breaking through frailer offensive resists, which it can get the chance to do by switching in on and then forcing out Water- and certain Electric-types or use its good bulk to withstand various neutral hits to unleash an attack in return.

Sharpedo Reasoning

Sharpedo's combination of speed and power allow it to double up as an unmatched hybrid sweeper and wallbreaker. With excellent coverage in its STABs and access to Speed Boost, it's capable of 2HKOing every offensive Pokemon at worst while being difficult to revenge kill and tricky to wall. Hydro Pump / Dark pulse / Ice Beam / Protect is Sharpedo's strongest set and what allows Sharpedo to cleave through many offensive teams in RU, forcing them to rely on shaky checks that are easily worn down or beaten by its other sets or mandating the use of a handful of priortity users incapable of switching in. Sharpedo is almost as good as a wallbreaker as it is a sweeper, as its special STAB combination in tandem with Ice Beam leaves it with few reliable defensive checks. These are limited to Poliwrath and Alomomola, the former of which can still lose to Zen Headbutt that Sharpedo is more than capable of employing on less threatening, but still effective physical sets. Sharpedo is also capable of running said physical sets with Aqua Jet in order to bypass priority such as Fletchinder's Acrobatics. Lastly, because of Speed Boost, Sharpedo synergizes with Baton Pass by being a powerful recipient with limited checks capable of putting a boosted Sharpedo to a halt.

tagging The Immortal for a ladder B)

Also here is NP song:

also thanks to Spirit and Nails for helping write the reasoning paragraphs !_!

***PSA: Do not shit post. Posts lacking content are subject to be deleted and/or infracted.

 

[passion]

Hello, ty both of these Pokemon are stupid. Sharpedo makes hyper offense unplayable because it either comes close to or ohkos every pokemon with it's great type coverage (dark/water/ice) as well as outspeed it because of speed boost. Things on offense that "check" Sharpedo such as Virizion, Seismitoad, Abomasnow, and priority users are all easily worn down throughout a game which eventually leaves you to get swept by it. Sharpedo can also break through anything bulky not named Alomomola and Poliwrath with relative ease. Mega Abomasnow causes severe constrictions to teambuilding because of the fact that it only has about 2 decent switch ins one of which is 2hko'd by hp fire (Escavalier). The other being Bronzong which is literally only used because Abomasnow is so stupid that people are forced to bring a Pokemon that is near worthless with out it in the battle. These Pokemon not only make this meta not fun but borderline unplayable and in my opinion should be banned.

 

[Nails]

stupid council keeps making the same mistakes over and over again and never learns

stop letting llamas pick the np: songs

good pokemon decisions though, those guys need to leave

 

[Aberforth]

To be clear, will they be allowed on the ladder or banned on the ladder?

Shark should definitely go. I'm less certain about MegaBoma, and I feel without the shark it would be a lot more manageable because of how good a partner the shark is for it. I kinda feel like its a bit better version of Mega Camel, with extra power and better offensive typing shortchanged by how good some of its checks are in dealing with other stuff as well (steel types for Rantrum, ext) as well as its weakness to rocks.

 

[DiscoDucky]

They will be allowed on ladder during suspect, if it comes to a conclusion that 1 of them(or both of them) gets banned, they wont be usable on ladder. And if they dont get banned, they will stay usable.

I'm pretty sure that's not what he meant.

Anyway, I definitely think that the MegaBoma + Shapedo combo is solely the reason why Mega Aboma seems broken. The two combined wreck most team types. SD wrecks balance and stall (offense if it has 1 SD) and even mixed is effective to some degree. Sharpedo takes advantage of its wallbreaking prowess to the point that the general sequence of Aboma --> Sharpedo can win players an absurd amount of games.

 

[Gorechomp]

Sharpedo: This Shark has got to go. The special set is way too threatening as it has no true counters besides Poliwrath and Cancer fish, and it completely destroys offensive teams lacking priority. Count in the fact that once it gets a Baton Pass boost from Togetic for example; it is almost impossible to stop. All in all, ban this fish.

Abomasnow: As much as Abom has grown on me, I do believe Snow needs to get banned as well. This Pokemon has NO switch ins besides Bronzong (whos only purpose in being on a team is to stop Abom) and AV Escavalier (who gets 2hko'ed by HP fire anyway). That and its incredibly powerful wall breaking capabilities and team building restrictions is why I have to say ban on Abomasnow.

 

[Ramy]

My Opinions on suspect:

Sharpedo: Sharpedo's wallbreaking potential is skyhigh as a combination of hydro pump, dark pulse, and ice beam can nearly sweep the entire tier. The fact that players are intimidated by it and always need to rely on priority moves when sharpedo gets a +2 speed tier is a restricting option when battling. Whats bad about it however is its low defenses and low hp which can cripple a sweeper but with its outstanding attacking potential it doesnt even matter when you cant even touch it or how fast it is. In conclusion Sharpedo is fast, powerful, limits approaches, and can break the tier? No question, this thing needs to get out and get its bottom with the bl2 frens.

Abomasite: Ahh mega aboma, when he came down we thought of him as a slower but more powerful exploud, then came the big bang when people realized that mega aboma was more than it seemed. Its moves of blizzard/ice shard/equake/giga drain/wood hammer/focus blast makes for a deadly combo with its already amazing attack. Oh and you thought it would die? No no friend, this thing has BULK, 105 to be exact to live a lot of things that normal aboma would get creamed on. In fact its movepool is so diverse to the tier, it makes this thing have almost no switch ins (Oh god another pangoro ;-;). The only things that can 100% switch on it is bronzong and escavalier but this thing can carry hp fire making it basically have no switch ins what so ever. But what cripples aboma is its HORRIBLE defensive typing giving a total of SEVEN weaknesses and a bad stealth rock weakness. Mega aboma's 1v1 game is not so good as a lot of threats that its weak to outspeed it and can potentially ko it, except for the things its faster then ofc which isnt much. In conclusion mega aboma is a fierce and powerful pokemon in our tier that has almost no switch ins, limits teambuilding, and gives stall and balanced a scare. This isnt as easy decision to make as sharpedo as you could go ban, no ban, or probably undecided, but dont underestimate this President of snow.

 

[feen]

For a Pokemon to put more strain into building offense than Tyrantrum, Sharpedo is easily one of the most centralising Pokemon in the meta atm. Every team must have a thing for it, and it gets worse for offense. Virizion is by far the best offensive check to Sharpedo, but it can only switch in once and that means you have to let something get KOed and then Sharpedo could switch out on Virizion. Another nice revenge killer is Fletchinder, but weakness to rocks hampers it a lot, as Sharpedo is a late game cleaner. Gurdurr is one of the best checks, but also cannot switch in directly to a Hydro Pump. There's also the fact that Gurdurr is a Pokemon for balance over offense. Therefore, offensive teams does not have a true Sharpedo counter, and have to opt to running checks, which can get worn down, making Sharpedo a massive threat for them. Sharpedo should definitely be banned from this meta, a meta that is already lacking enough Specially Defensive Pokemon.

 

[Funbot28]

Suspect time:

Ya this thing is really broken atm. The fact that it can rip through any moderately offensive team lacking a priority user is pretty absurd, and the ability to run a powerful physical and equally powerful special set or even mixed is what makes it truly devastating imo. You bring in your Tangrowth thinking its physical, and you get bopped by Ice Beam, and ever after thinking it's special, you then bring in something like Mesprit only to get destroyed by Crunch. The strain it puts on teambuilding is really disgusting (even more so than Tyrantrum tbh) and its checks getting easily whittled down makes it more broken in my eyes. Like Arifeen said there aren't many special walls in RU atm, which further enhances Sharpedo's sweeping capabilities, or you can just let wallbreakers such as Mega Abomasnow and Tyrantrum break down teams to let Sharp sweep afterwards. This thing is beyond broken and should be banned.

Speaking of Mega Abomasnow I must admit I am a little torn. Yes we all know you cannot switch into this monster besides bulky Steels such as Brozong and AV Escavalier (which I both believe are mons that are used to specifically check Mega Snow), but in the other hand we have a mon that has incredibly low speed and a bunch of weaknesses to add to this, and there are some other mons that lack sufficient switchins as well (Tyrantrum, Exploud, Specs Meloetta, CB Durant/Emboar). This is really important as Mega Abomasnow is often forced out by many common threats in RU such as Fletchinder, Hitmonlee, Durant and Emboar. Combined with it's SR weakness and it's general reliance of needing to switch in safely in order to get a turn to let your opponent choose witch mon is gonna get 2HKOed can be pretty overwhelming at times. But it does have some nice resistances in Water, Ground, and Grass witch makes switching in not that all impossible, and it too can run a variety of differenet sets ranging from mixed attacker, SD, full physical, full special, growth, etc... Which is the reason why I believe it is being suspected atm. I guess I will need to do a bit more playtesting, but so far I am leaning towards a no ban. But this decision is not final, and I can be swayed.

 

[EonX]

Sharpedo: Man and we thought Tyrantrum was bad to offense. Sharpedo takes it to a whole new level with its versatility. Special sets are by far the best (H-Pump Dark Pulse Ice Beam) but it is by no means the only one. Physical sets are definitely viable (Waterfall Crunch Zen Headbutt) and you can even mix and match for a mixed set that leans physical or special. Because of the unpredictability, it's hard to figure out what you need to save in order to beat it. Poliwrath and Virizion are perfectly viable checks (counter in Poliwrath's case) if Sharpedo is using Ice Beam for coverage, but they are blown back by Zen Headbutt variants. Meanwhile, stuff like Druddigon and Tangrowth fare much better against Zen Headbutt variants, but generally fall flat against Ice Beam variants. It reminds me a lot of Yanmega in that you don't really know what it's carrying until it comes out. Sure Team Preview can sometimes give you a hint, but you very easily could end up saving the wrong response to it and lose the game in spite of playing well in your mind. Now, Sharpedo is ridiculously frail and weak to priority, but it isn't exactly hard to weaken and remove priority users in this tier. Kinda feel like this was all stating the obvious, but it bears repeating imo.

Mega Abomasnow: What Sharpedo is to offense, Mega Abomasnow is to balance. Balance teams loathe seeing this monster on teams. Typical defensive balance mons in Alomomola, Diancie, and Amoonguss are easy switch in opportunities for the snowman to start ripping these teams apart. As someone who uses Balance teams quite often, I usually find myself using Hariyama, Bronzong, or defensive Emboar to make sure Mega Abomasnow can't just have a cakewalk. What a lot of people I don't think realize is that when you're fighting Mega Abomasnow and taking damage from it, you have to add an extra 6% for every hit thanks to the Hail it's always accompanied with. This makes Escavalier about the only reliable switch in that won't be worn down super quickly and it can be destroyed by random HP Fires. For example, Emboar and Bronzong go from taking 33% and 23% from Blizzard respectively and getting to heal 6%-12% passively as they possibly force out Mega Abomasnow to getting none of it back thanks to Hail cancelling Leftovers. Hariyama effectively takes more as, after two round of Hail damage, it takes 31% due to no Leftovers. And this is considering a best case scenario as all of these are absolute minimum rolls and no entry hazards involved. Factor this in and it's highly possible for your so-called switch ins taking 35-50% depending on rolls and entry hazards while Mega Abomasnow has Giga Drain to attempt to outlast these threats. That's not even factoring in the SD set which completely blows back Hariyama and does much better against Emboar due to commonly using EQ. So factor all of this in and Mega Abomasnow effectively has two checks. Escavalier which can quickly be disposed of with HP Fire if the Mega Snow user wishes to carry it, and Bronzong, which is easy Pursuit bait. NEITHER has reliable recovery of any kind and Mega Abomasnow can Giga Drain targets to keep itself healthier than Bronzong and Escavalier. It has issues against offensive teams, but it will still pose a threat due to Ice Shard and some key resistances to Electric and Water moves, often meaning it'll still get a KO in most matches against offensive teams. If there's one knock against Mega Abomasnow, it would be that it's own Hail can make it challenging to support defensively as a lot of its best defensive partners dislike having their Leftovers recovery cancelled out by the Hail. Even still, stuff like Alomomola (Wish Support!) Flygon (hazard control!) and Togetic (Speed control!) can be used easily enough to support Mega Abomasnow due to their reliable recovery. Oh, and don't get me started on this thing with Trick Room. Absolute monster.

 

[Miyami~~]

So one thing that destroys offence and one thing that destroys defence? Let's go.

Sharpedo: This thing. This thing is even more threatening to offence than Tyrantrum, which is saying a lot. Sharpedo has exactly 4 reliable answers: Togetic, Virizion, Poliwrath, and Alomomola, and out of those, only Alomomola actually checks all the sets. Virizion and Poliwrath are both destroyed by Zen Headbutt, and Togetic doesn't reliably take ice beams, [252+ SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Togetic: 146-172 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO], leaving Alomomola as the only extremely reliable check to this thing, and since Alomomola can't do anything back except Scald and pray for a burn, that's not a good sign. With Physical sets or Special sets + Aqua Jet also existing, it can get around some of the usual checks or even priority. Sure, it's as frail as a piece of paper in a hurricane, but that's not enough considering after a few speed boosts it outspeed everything in the tier except priority. We need to ban this.

Abomasnow: Abomasnow is interesting. While defensive teams are suffering, and have been for a while, bulky/Balance teams are on the rise. Most balance teams rely on certain defensive walls, most of which are weak to Ice and/or Grass. I'm undecided, hoping to mess around with it in this test.

 

[Lord Death Man]

In all honesty, I think that Abomasnow, and not Abomasite, should be the suspect. I just don't think the mega offers that much over the regular form (soundproof pre-mega and a lot of bulk on a mon with a bad typing). They're both stupidly hard to switch into, etc. Personally, I don't think having to run life orb is enough of a negative to outway regular aboma's positives. Definately still voting ban on the mega if I get reqs, though.

Both suspects are stupidly restrictive to balance while being good to great versus stall and offense, and I rarely feel that the ways they hurt defensive synergy on teams makes up for their insane offensive prowess, even though neither is actually all that overwhelmingly strong, firing attacks off essentially 95 base special attack (for both; megasnow is a little weaker than sharpedo after LO is factored in), they both have excellent coverage. We also have enough decent voltturn mons that both are somewhat easy to support.

I also want to say that Sharpedo really constrains balance teams and is probably the biggest reason Slowking isn't getting the attention it deserves. Sharpedo's matchup versus balance isn't bad at all, especially if you're using Slowking balance or your bulky water is Blastoise. I think Balance is already very strained to cover every threat and Sharpedo making Slowking and Jellicent massively unappealing is making the situation much worse. Especially since King/Jellicent (especially King though) threaten Abomasnow much more than Toise or Mola could ever hope to and are less of a free switch in for the monster.

 

[Punchshroom]

I have to agree with LDM there that regular Abomasnow should also be looked at when deciding MAbomasnow as the suspect. I'm trying to discern other factors to RU's struggles with MAbomasnow other than how difficult it is to switch into, because Life Orb Abomasnow boasts similiar wallbreaking prowess, and trades a bit of longevity in favor of a better Speed tier that puts it comfortably ahead of things like Tangrowth, Seismitoad, Druddigon, fast Rhyperior, and other potential targets, so balance still kind of has their hands full even should MAbomasnow depart. With that said, the similarities between those two sort of die there, since Abomasnow can't really replicate SD MAbomasnow to nearly as much success, but I doubt the SD set is what people are crying about anyway. Mega Abomasnow may have tremendous wallbreaking power, but its poor Speed and Stealth Rock weakness mean that it's not really the 'end-all-be-all' wallbreaker that ends balance teams. Honestly I don't see Mega Abomasnow being that much more terrifying for balance than say, Venusaur, but that's just me.

For something so explicitly designed to eat offensive teams alive as well as it does, its powerful and diverse coverage makes its matchup against balanced teams not too shabby at all. Of course, Sharpedo still suffers from the presence of priority moves and its need to OHKO its foes. However, Sharpedo resists all priority moves bar Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Gale Wings Acrobatics, and it may use Aqua Jet to snipe down Fletchinder as well as eager Sucker Punch users. Meanwhile, its attacks are still plenty strong enough to net KOes after a small amount of whittling on all but its hardest of counters (of which there are few), which isn't really hard to facilitate considering its role as a late-game cleaner. I wouldn't mind seeing this go.

 

[atomicllamas]

Spirit and meru actually brought up suspecting both abomasnow formes. At the end of the day molk and I decided against testing both because regular abomasnow is (relatively) untested, and to be frank we don't quite trust the average voter to use regular abomasnow during the test (I do trust that a lot would, just not everyone). And unlike sharpedo / mega abomasnow they aren't likely to face it on the ladder themselves. I don't like the idea of a Pokemon being potentially banned on theorymon alone, so while we are open to testing regular after the fact if it continues to be an issue, we aren't gonna test them side by side. Let's stay on topic with the suspects at hand though moving forward, thanks.

 

[complete legitimacy]

sick

 

[Wewtmo]

I have been playing around a with a super hyper offense team since sharpedo, medicham... dropped back to ru. I built the team in +/- 5 minutes (so I didn't really think about checking possible threats like sharpedo) but I don't seem to have any problem dealing with opposing sharpedo. People here are talking about walls in order to keep sharpedo at bay, but they seem to forget there are other options to check sharpedo/make him useless. So on my quick built team I have two focus sashes and sticky web support. To be fair, I must say webs don't fit on every team, but I believe there's always a way to beat sharp. On balance/stall you tangrowth and slowking can take a hit and either kill it or twave it (twave bro can be helpful in a lot of situations) and due to regenerator they can be used later on in the game. Once a bulky water like alomomola burns it with a scald, sharp can probably only kill 2-3 mons because of lo + burn damage racking op (+hazards). Focus sash is a great way for ho teams to stop sharpedo as on a ho team everything should be able to kill sharpedo. Fletchinder is also a really reliable check, since if sharp runs aqua jet, it has to trade much needed coverage for it, in which case it can be easily dealt with by other mons.

So "how to check sharpedo" in short: -sticky web
-focus sash
-whittle with toxic/(scald) burn (+hazards) + lo damage
-twave by slowking who lives any special hit except for crits, even without running any bulk ev's or mega banette or registeel
-av tangrowth and amoonguss live any hit, even without bulk ev's and kill with giga drain
-blastoise lives any hit and can ko with aura sphere or wittle with scald
-fletchinder has 80% chance to ohko sharp at full hp
-hitmontop lives any hit and: defensive ohkoes with cc, offensive ohkoes with mach punch
-aromatisse lives any hit, even withouth bulk ev's and ohkoes with moonblast
-virizion lives any hit and kills with basically every move it has
-seismitoad lives any hit if phys def and doesnt get 2hkoed if spdef and 2hkoes sharp itself w/ earth power
-scarf flygon and rotom-w can check it if sharpedo hasnt gained speed yet (if you run 48hp on rotom you actually never get knocked out from a sharpedo's ice beam without prior damage, i just figured this out myself so I'm gonna start doing that)
-braviary always lives ice beam without prior damage, even without bulk
-escavalier,gallade: same story as before
-...

All the calcs I did assumed no hp, spdef or def ev's (I had crunch as a 4th move with max att and spatt on sharp) and thus worst case scenario. I must say if you run hyper offense, hazard control or strong priority is needed if you don't have a mon that doesn't take 88+% from sharp or you have zero focus sashes (I experience that taunt is usually enough to keep hazards off the field long enough).

I think due to sharpedo's poor bulk (resisted sucker punches from houndoom, emboar and absol deal respectively 37%, 50% and 65%) and it's inability to snag some important ohkoes/2hkoes it should stay in RU, I think it makes the metagame more challenging. As you can see there are a plethora of checks available and I haven't even listed them all if you play around with av's.

This was my first post so sorry if it's a bit hectic, I just felt I needed to add to this discussion.

 

[Gatorboy]

I do not think that either of those pokemon should be banned. Mega Abomasnow is a huge threat, but it also is VERY slow. Yes it has ice shard as priority in ice shard, but ice shard is only 40 base power. Mega Abomasnow has 7 weaknesses, which are common in the tier. Steel is an easy switch, as it resists both of Abomasnow stabs. Bronzong and Durrant can switch in to Snows incoming attack and live, even with its poor special defense. Fletchinder can not switch in on a snow's blizzard, but has a chance to OHKO with Acrobatics, and could cripple it with a burn. Emboar can switch in on a blizzard and blow it up with both of its STAB moves, cuch as flare blitz and super power. Tyrantrum can OHKO with a head smash or a stone edge, and can easily live an ice shard. Aggron is another easy switch in and OHKO back with a head smash. Escavelier is another EASY swap into mega snows incoming attacks, and can OHKO back with a mega horn. Diancie can swap in, and can outspeed and out damage it. Delphox can swap in, as long as their is not an out prediction, and can OHKO back with a fire blast. The hitmons can revenge kill, and Doom can swap on any grass or ice move, and out speed and kill it. Those are some possible Pokemon that can counter Mega Snow. And for Sharpedo, it is a threat, but any priority kills it because of its frailty. A mach punch from a hitmonlee has a chance to OHKO it. Yes it has speed boost, but that does not help it from priority. It does have aqua jet, but that can't out damage any incoming attack. Again, I do not think that they should be banned, as they are great pokemon, but they can be countered. There are many answers to them, and they are not broken.

 

[Ununhexium]

I do not think that either of those pokemon should be banned. Mega Abomasnow is a huge threat, but it also is VERY slow. Yes it has ice shard as priority in ice shard, but ice shard is only 40 base power. Mega Abomasnow has 7 weaknesses, which are common in the tier. Steel is an easy switch, as it resists both of Abomasnow stabs. Bronzong and Durrant can switch in to Snows incoming attack and live, even with its poor special defense. Fletchinder can not switch in on a snow's blizzard, but has a chance to OHKO with Acrobatics, and could cripple it with a burn. Emboar can switch in on a blizzard and blow it up with both of its STAB moves, cuch as flare blitz and super power. Tyrantrum can OHKO with a head smash or a stone edge, and can easily live an ice shard. Aggron is another easy switch in and OHKO back with a head smash. Escavelier is another EASY swap into mega snows incoming attacks, and can OHKO back with a mega horn. Diancie can swap in, and can outspeed and out damage it. Delphox can swap in, as long as their is not an out prediction, and can OHKO back with a fire blast. The hitmons can revenge kill, and Doom can swap on any grass or ice move, and out speed and kill it. Those are some possible Pokemon that can counter Mega Snow. And for Sharpedo, it is a threat, but any priority kills it because of its frailty. A mach punch from a hitmonlee has a chance to OHKO it. Yes it has speed boost, but that does not help it from priority. It does have aqua jet, but that can't out damage any incoming attack. Again, I do not think that they should be banned, as they are great pokemon, but they can be countered. There are many answers to them, and they are not broken.

252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 520-616 (202.3 - 239.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

ill admit bronzong doesnt take much but its also worn down pretty easily and can be pursuit trapped

also burns dont half special attack, so you burn it with fletch and what, die the next turn?

DEFENSIVE emboar still takes over 30% from blizzard on the switch and takes over 40 from earthquake. offensive emboar take over 40

tyrantrum cant switch in on like any move except hp fire

aggron takes over 50% from blizzard and gets smashed by earthquake and focus blast

escavalier, even if av, is 2hkoed by hp fire

diancie takes over 80 from wood hammer and also doesnt like earthquake much

delphox takes over 85 from earthquake and takes over 30 form both stabs

hitmonlee takes over 50 percent from literally every one of its moves except hp fire

houndoom takes over 50 from blizzard and gets nailed by coverage

are you starting to see how hard abomasnow is to switch into? basically every common balance pokemon except like bronzong takes massive damage from its stabs or various coverage moves (yeah it cant run all of them at the same time but until its revealed you cant make a safe switch into it). the fact that it can run any of these coverage moves and pick and chooses what it smashes to tiny little bits is pretty broken imo.

 

[Ramy]

I do not think that either of those pokemon should be banned. Mega Abomasnow is a huge threat, but it also is VERY slow. Yes it has ice shard as priority in ice shard, but ice shard is only 40 base power. Mega Abomasnow has 7 weaknesses, which are common in the tier. Steel is an easy switch, as it resists both of Abomasnow stabs. Bronzong and Durrant can switch in to Snows incoming attack and live, even with its poor special defense. Fletchinder can not switch in on a snow's blizzard, but has a chance to OHKO with Acrobatics, and could cripple it with a burn. Emboar can switch in on a blizzard and blow it up with both of its STAB moves, cuch as flare blitz and super power. Tyrantrum can OHKO with a head smash or a stone edge, and can easily live an ice shard. Aggron is another easy switch in and OHKO back with a head smash. Escavelier is another EASY swap into mega snows incoming attacks, and can OHKO back with a mega horn. Diancie can swap in, and can outspeed and out damage it. Delphox can swap in, as long as their is not an out prediction, and can OHKO back with a fire blast. The hitmons can revenge kill, and Doom can swap on any grass or ice move, and out speed and kill it. Those are some possible Pokemon that can counter Mega Snow. And for Sharpedo, it is a threat, but any priority kills it because of its frailty. A mach punch from a hitmonlee has a chance to OHKO it. Yes it has speed boost, but that does not help it from priority. It does have aqua jet, but that can't out damage any incoming attack. Again, I do not think that they should be banned, as they are great pokemon, but they can be countered. There are many answers to them, and they are not broken.

1. Every pokemon you mentioned for mega aboma except for bronzong and escavalier cant switch into nothing, Durant cant live blizzard+ice shard, aboma can carry equake so emboar, delphox, and houndoom is irrelevant, aboma carries stab giga drain so diancie is out and aboma can live a diamond storm. lol the hitmon family arent taking a blizzard lightly and willo from fletch isnt doing shit when blizzard kos it and with right enough of hp evs you live a acrobatics. You also fail to realize that of the opponent is smart they can just predict and bop them, also have you ever heard of switching, aboma isnt gonna stay in on any of those pokemon in 1v1. Aboma carrries amazing bulk and hp complemented with good mixed attack. As for weakness and stealth rock, i can agree on that, but those doesnt matter when every type its weak too cant switch onto one of its attacks.

2. So your counter to sharpedo not being banned is: priority. So i guess we can neglect the 9/10 of the tier that doesnt carry priority and can get easily swept from sharpedos devasting attack and speed.

You failed to look at the pokemons HUGE advantages they have over the tier and decided to use what was already known or some nitpicks.

Edit: Sniped by Ununhexium :(

 

[Wandering Wobbuffet]

OK since everyone is going ahead and posting their opinions I'm going to go ahead and post mine. However before I do I want to make it very clear that I am a balance-HO player generally leaning more towards HO. My views definitely are very biased from that point of view.

So Abomasnow my have I loved you back in the tier. It definitely helped give offense a huge boost being able to single-handily beat annoying regenerator cores (bar flamethrower slowking who lives a giga and OHKOs in return) that have started to dwindle in usage due to this guy being back. I definitely understand why stall players want this gone but from my perspective it's just not worthy of it. It kinda suffers a similar fate to mega pinsir up in OU. It has very good defensive/offensive stats but it's typing is only good offensively. Ice does nothing useful defensively and grass gives you pretty neat resistances to water, electric, and ground. However that's all it does. Otherwise it's awful defensively and can be quite easily exploited because of it. Sure it has no switchins but that's really the point of a wallbreaker. If you do have switchins then you're honestly a poor excuse for a wallbreaker. It's even weak to stealth rocks to top off it's easily exploitable typing. At least for right now I think don't ban.

Well sharpedo you have been a staple in quite a few of my teams as of late and I have lots of experience in using this guy. To quote something I said in the VR "I literally will look at the team preview, see what needs to be weakened, weaken that thing, and then just finish off the rest of the team with sharpedo". This thing is so powerful with solid attacking stats, decent movepool, speed boost, and great offensive typing. It's pretty easy to get a speed boost late game when stuff is weakened and just clean. However you would be thinking "Oh stall would be able to take care of thing pretty easily." Thing is that isn't true either. As I said it has a great offensive typing letting it OHKO steelix, OHKO diancie, and 2HKO tangrowth. It certainly won't be sweeping stall teams anytime soon (well I guess if you pair it with nastypass then it probably will be) but it can still inflict huge amounts of damage vs stall which isn't easily regained. It forces offense to run priority with fletch or lee and it can even run aqua jet for fletch. Bottom line: I really hope shark gets banned because it's well worthy of it.

 

[MrAldo]

Ive been shouting to the 5 winds since the moment sharpedo dropped that it was broken... few times Ive been happier for being right about something!

Sharpedo needs to go, the amount of consistent responses to all sets sums up to like 2 (defensive poliwrath and assault vest spdef tangrowth), every other potential "response" to this monster gets nailed by a physical variant, special variant or mixed variants with a coverage move it can easily accomodate to whatever the team needs. The amount of pressure this mon puts during the teambuilding phase is absurd and if your best response to this thing is "we have priority" then is something really goddamn wrong here. There is no way to keep the shark in this tier, the fact that is never deadweight against any playstyle really speaks for itself, this needs to go ASAP in my eyes. Shoutouts to Punchshroom with the scarf mach punch hitmonlee!!

Mega Abomasnow is actually a mon that needs to go too. It exerts huge amounts of pressure on teambuilding as well, there are good offensive checks to it that can take an ice shard and retaliate against both mega aboma sets but when your actual responses that can switch into most sets are reduced to like 2 (again) something is really wrong here. Labeling mons as "wallbreakers" is more of a technicality, something to understand that "x" mon excels against teambuilds that relies on have "walls" in their core, or being able to pressure walls really well. Labelling a mon "wallbreaker" doesnt mean it should be able to break through everything just like that. When you combine the fact that it has 2 responses where one is pursuit trappable, bait to like half the tier and shit and the other (escavalier) gets worn down rather easily since, ideally, would need AV to constantly check it and that isnt useless against offense thanks to hail damage racking up pretty easily and ice shard being pretty damn strong even on mixed sets means this mon needs to go as well. Pretty terrible typing is one of the really few cons this mon when the pros are so damn good. Ban this too please.

I dont why people use the "argument" But I dont have problems with it so it must be alright, just use "x" and "y" and that when first, you arent the only one playing this tier; second, disregarding actual points of view with such a tunnel vision that doesnt say anything about the general point of view in this metagame (in fact, grass types arent even responses to sharpedo but thats just me stating the obvious). Like, I dont get it. You are the only one doing eveything right while the rest are doing everything wrong?? I dont understand...

Every tier is challenging, but that doesnt mean we should keep obviously disruptive mons. Whatever, Ill let the boat takes its course and let it be whatever the people want to -_- Ill try to get reqs I guess.

 

[Aberforth]

The discussion with Abomasnow should not be "does this thing have numerous switch ins". Cause it only has one or two counters, and they'll be worn down throughout a game, although it does have a myriad of checks which you can stack to have an ok-ish matchup vs it (ex: hariyama + durant). The question should be, does the fact it has no counters outweigh its downsides, which do exist, enough for it to be broken. Stuff with next to no good switchins have existed for a while in RU and will continue to exist if it does get banned, with Exploud, Tyrantrum, ext all still in the tier, and the checks to these mons tend to not be very solid throughout the course of a game. And thats not even going into the ones with a very select group of checks like Hitmonlee. But they all have enough downsides to be not considered broken. Exploud for example has no switch ins that aren't 2hkod, but its subpar bulk, poor speed and general uselessness vs offense means its not broken. And I think this is very similar to Abomasnow. It's even slower, and has 7 weaknesses (fucking 7) with a weakness to stealth rock and a 4x weakness to fire, coupled with its poor speed meaning its all but incapable of switching in and outspeeding mons, meaning it needs to take two hits to fire off just one and leaves it relatively easy to wear down. Also Ice Shard doesn't make its matchup vs Offense good in any way, neither does hail really. yeah 6% per turn is appreciated damage but offense generally wont care about the extra damage that much, and Ice Shard is so weak. It's ice shard does 60% to Aerodactyl, about 35% to tyrantrum, and these are pokemon that are weak to ice. Ice shard just makes it's matchup not quite as shit as before, but almost everything on offense will be able to 2hko abomasnow, so it will never be switching in on anything (especially when rocks are considered) and it will only manage to get off one kill at most, assuming it even manages that.

I'm not decided on it yet, but looking at it it has a bunch of checks, terrible speed, worse typing and a poor matchup vs probably the most popular playstyle at the moment. That doesn't scream unquestionably broken to me like some of the posts here have suggested.

 

[EonX]

Emboar @ Leftovers
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 224 HP / 216 Def / 68 SpD
Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

As many of you know, I've been using defensive Emboar a fair bit recently and I've been liking it quite a bit. It's really nice for those balance teams that don't like having to use Bronzong to check Mega Abomasnow since it isn't Pursuit trapped. Emboar also has the added benefit of checking Durant and Escavalier as well as non-Zen Headbutt Virizion. The EV spread hits a Leftovers number while giving Emboar ~3% extra special bulk to better handle Mixed Mega Snow, Venusaur, and Tangrowth while still not giving up that much physical bulk when it comes to dealing with Durant, Escavalier, and Virizion.

I still want to stress the fact that none of Mega Abomasnow's switch-ins have reliable recovery, so when you're calculating the damage they take from something, you may as well add an extra 6% due to Hail either causing that damage or keeping Leftovers from giving them the recovery they rely on. The only exception is obviously Escavalier. Also, don't forget that Mega Abomasnow, while having a whopping 7 weaknesses, still has some useful resistances to Water, Grass, and Electric which should be something when considering other wallbreakers like Exploud or Meloetta that either have no useful defensive synergy or are super weak to Pursuit. And just by providing Mega Abomasnow hazard control, you're taking care of at least one of those 7 weaknesses in the process (Blastoise for Fire, Hitmontop for Rock, and Flygon for both)

 

[Miyami~~]

I have been playing around a with a super hyper offense team since sharpedo, medicham... dropped back to ru. I built the team in +/- 5 minutes (so I didn't really think about checking possible threats like sharpedo) but I don't seem to have any problem dealing with opposing sharpedo. People here are talking about walls in order to keep sharpedo at bay, but they seem to forget there are other options to check sharpedo/make him useless. So on my quick built team I have two focus sashes and sticky web support. To be fair, I must say webs don't fit on every team, but I believe there's always a way to beat sharp. On balance/stall you tangrowth and slowking can take a hit and either kill it or twave it (twave bro can be helpful in a lot of situations) and due to regenerator they can be used later on in the game. Once a bulky water like alomomola burns it with a scald, sharp can probably only kill 2-3 mons because of lo + burn damage racking op (+hazards). Focus sash is a great way for ho teams to stop sharpedo as on a ho team everything should be able to kill sharpedo. Fletchinder is also a really reliable check, since if sharp runs aqua jet, it has to trade much needed coverage for it, in which case it can be easily dealt with by other mons.

So "how to check sharpedo" in short: -sticky web
-focus sash
-whittle with toxic/(scald) burn (+hazards) + lo damage
-twave by slowking who lives any special hit except for crits, even without running any bulk ev's or mega banette or registeel
-av tangrowth and amoonguss live any hit, even without bulk ev's and kill with giga drain
-blastoise lives any hit and can ko with aura sphere or wittle with scald
-fletchinder has 80% chance to ohko sharp at full hp
-hitmontop lives any hit and: defensive ohkoes with cc, offensive ohkoes with mach punch
-aromatisse lives any hit, even withouth bulk ev's and ohkoes with moonblast
-virizion lives any hit and kills with basically every move it has
-seismitoad lives any hit if phys def and doesnt get 2hkoed if spdef and 2hkoes sharp itself w/ earth power
-scarf flygon and rotom-w can check it if sharpedo hasnt gained speed yet (if you run 48hp on rotom you actually never get knocked out from a sharpedo's ice beam without prior damage, i just figured this out myself so I'm gonna start doing that)
-braviary always lives ice beam without prior damage, even without bulk
-escavalier,gallade: same story as before
-...

All the calcs I did assumed no hp, spdef or def ev's (I had crunch as a 4th move with max att and spatt on sharp) and thus worst case scenario. I must say if you run hyper offense, hazard control or strong priority is needed if you don't have a mon that doesn't take 88+% from sharp or you have zero focus sashes (I experience that taunt is usually enough to keep hazards off the field long enough).

I think due to sharpedo's poor bulk (resisted sucker punches from houndoom, emboar and absol deal respectively 37%, 50% and 65%) and it's inability to snag some important ohkoes/2hkoes it should stay in RU, I think it makes the metagame more challenging. As you can see there are a plethora of checks available and I haven't even listed them all if you play around with av's.

This was my first post so sorry if it's a bit hectic, I just felt I needed to add to this discussion.

Hi, welcome to the forums!

Anyways, let me look at your thoughts:

Sticky Web is pointless because Sharpedo has speed boost and more often than not carries protect, so they can switch in, protect, and then their speed is back to normal.

Hazards, especially Stealth Rocks, are everywhere in RU, which break your sash every time. Additionally, trying to switch your sash user into Sharpedo will result in it going down to its sash most of the time, and then speed boost activates, and then Sharpedo is now faster most of the time, and then you lose a Pokemon. The only way to reliably get a sash user in is to let something else faint and hope there's no hazards on the field, which means Sharpedo is still taking something out.

The standard (248 HP / 8 SpD) Assault Vest Tangrowth is 2HKOed by Ice Beam, and therefore can't switch in because Sharpedo is faster. Amonguss needs 96 SpD EVs and an Assault Vest to avoid the 2HKO.

Blastoise has a tiny chance to be 2HKOed with rocks up, but it forces you to run Aura Sphere, as scald is a 4HKO and burns don't matter to a special Sharpedo.

Fletchinder can't switch in to Sharpedo so you still have to sacrifice something to get Fletchinder in, meaning Sharpedo has still taken one thing down. Aqua Jet also takes out Fletchinder after rocks if the Sharpedo player goes that route.


Hitmontop is 2HKOed after rocks by Hydro Pump, so it can't switch in unless you have Mach Punch on it.

Aromatisse is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump after Stealth rocks assuming the standard spread.

Virizion is 2HKOed by Ice Beam after Stealth Rocks, and with some speed boosts, Sharpedo moves first, so Virizion can't reliably switch in. Even then, Shark can carry Zen Headbutt.

Seismitoad can switch in (assuming the standard spread), and is 3HKOed by Ice Beam, but Earth Power without Special attack investment is a 2HKO, meaning because you are slower, you can't switch in your Seismitoad on an Ice Beam.

Rotom-Wash isn't in the tier. Scarf Flygon can't switch in and will inevitably lose if you try to send it in once Sharpedo has enough speed, which isn't difficult due to you killing everything and also protect.

Standard attacking Braviary (Choice Band Sets) is OHKOed by Ice Beam, OHKOed by Hydro Pump after Stealth Rocks, and 2HKOed by Dark Pulse after rocks, so it can't switch in unless you're running sub + bulk up with 212 special Defence EVs, which still can't switch in since Ice Beam 2HKOes most of the time or after a Hydro Pump + Rocks.

Gallade (assuming sub + bulk up with the same sort as the above Braviary or Choice Band) is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump after Stealth Rocks, and considering how Spammable Hydro Pump is, that's an issue.

Escavalier with assault Vest has a 71.6% chance to be 2HKOed by Hydro Pump after rocks, making it a very shaky switch-in. Choice Band Escavalier will be 2HKOed every time after rocks.

Specs Slowking can't switch into a Dark Pulse, neither can OTR. You have to run vest to dodge the 2HKO from Dark Pulse, but then you can't use Thunder Wave. Mega Banette dies on the switch from Dark Pulse, and there's a 31% chance you get OHKOed by Hydro pump on the switch as well. Registeel should always work though.

You can't realistically put a vest on everything, either, without getting into sub-optimal sets.

Hope this helps! :)

 

[Highways]

I'm sorry, but if we want to analyse the metagame, we need that Sharpedo and Mega Abomasnow should be banned for RU Suspect Test...