Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

[Mowtom]

The Pokemon has intimate knowledge of the opponent's held item and ignores any item-based increases or decreases in damage, BAP and STAB from the opponent's item. This will not block the increase in BAP moves like Acrobatics and Knock Off that incur when an item is or isn't held. Item-Based increase in ranks (Such as from Rare Candy) are not negated by Frisk. The Pokemon will not be affected by Fling or Natural Gift.

When struck directly by a super-effective attack, the Pokemon's Attack, and Special Attack are increased by two (2) stages (adjusting the natural stages).

I remember some confusion about whether Frisk ignores the Weakness Policy boost but can't find anywhere the discussion happened. Can we add a sentence to one of the descriptions explicitly stating how the two interact?

 

[Its_A_Random]

Frisk should not be ignoring Weakness Policy under any circumstances for two reasons:

1) Weakness Policy does nothing until the trigger (hit by SE Attack) is met and disappears after that condition is met, which is clearly not blocked by Frisk.
2) Weakness Policy's boost applies to Attack and Special Attack stages and because of its very nature, is not considered an item-based increased boost/drop in damage.

This is also clear enough in Frisk's description because of the reasons above.

 

[acidphoenix]

can we please clarify a. megazam and trace and when it happens and b. whether mega'ing on sendout is acceptable

on the former i've been told conflicting things, and on the latter it never says in the handbook you can anywhere and it explicitly says that the time to megaevolve is when you order, before the first action of the round and yet we somehow have a heavy consensus you can do so on sendout?

 

[Dogfish44]

Trace occurs on Mega Evolution. Mega Evolution occurs within your actions. Yes, 'Zam is fairly powerful because it gets an ordering-second Trace, it also has 90/3/3 bulk.

 

[JJayyFeather]

Hmm contradiction as everyone keeps saying its mevo trace on sendout. But what Dogfish44 said makes total sense based on in-game stuffs.

Edit at below: Yeah but these are people I generally listen to. The point is that my sources are contradicting one another

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

"Everyone" (5 people?) =/= logic

 

[deadfox081]

Very minor one here but Skull Bash's energy cost is far too low. Enough different situations have proved it to be very effective. It should cost 10 EN base ala Overheat and Sky Attack since it is on par with either. 8 EN is, once again, far too low.

 

[Someoneelse]

"If a referee is subreffed at request of the battlers, the incoming subref will be entitled to full UC payment for the match and the original referee will not get any credit for the match."
Can we clarify the interaction of this with the ref payouts in roleplays (Hall, Pike etc.) which countradict this? If the roleplay payouts take precedence in this case, it could be as simple as adding "Unless otherwise specified" at the start of the phrase.

 

[Frosty]

RPs' rules precede. If the RP wants to use that general rule, they will need to specify that.

 

[FMD]

The current wording of Magic Guard technically gives Pokemon with it immunity to certain forms of direct damage, such as combos involving Spikes/SR and a damaging move, as the damage would count as coming from Spikes/SR.

Current Description

This Pokemon is infused with a powerful psycho-electric energy that makes it immune to damage from Spikes, Stealth Rock, Hail, Sandstorm, Leech Seed, Poisoning, Burn, and Partial Trapping moves. It can still attack itself in confusion, and will still take damage from it. Additionally, the energy protects the Pokemon from its own reckless recoil attacks. Toxic still increases in damage each round, although if Magic Guard is in effect, the Pokemon will not suffer any damage. Life Orb recoil is negated.

Proposed Change

Pokemon with this ability are immune to damage from entry hazards as well as residual damage not caused by Future Sight or Doom Desire. It can still attack itself in confusion, and will still take damage from it. Additionally, the energy protects the Pokemon from its own reckless recoil attacks. Toxic still increases in damage each round, although if Magic Guard is in effect, the Pokemon will not suffer any damage. Life Orb recoil is negated.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

related irc conversation

Hide

[16:06:54] <FMD> Is Future Sight blocked by Magic Guard since it counts as residual damage?
[16:07:10] <Skyla> yes
[16:07:18] <Skyla> in ASB at least it is
[16:07:21] <Skyla> i would think
[16:07:27] <Skyla> !asbmove freezedry
[16:07:46] <FMD> Texas, can you answer?
[16:08:10] <Alakazam> @asbility magicguard
[16:08:11] <ASBot_> Magic Guard | Type: Passive | Mold Breaker-affected: No
[16:08:11] <ASBot_> This Pokemon is infused with a powerful psycho-electric energy that makes it immune to damage from Spikes, Stealth Rock, Hail, Sandstorm, Leech Seed, Poisoning, Burn, and Partial Trapping moves. It can still attack itself in confusion, and will still take damage from it. Additionally, the energy protects the Pokemon from its own reckless recoil attacks. Toxic still increases in damage each round, although if Magic Guard is in ...
[16:08:11] <ASBot_> ... effect the Pokemon will not suffer any damage. Life Orb recoil is negated.
[16:08:29] <Alakazam> it specifies things and future sight is not one of them
[16:08:36] <Skyla> !asbmove pinmissile
[16:09:27] <FMD> Huh... Would that mean it would prevent the 5 BAP version of Stealth Rock in Roark's gym?
[16:09:41] <Alakazam> quite possibly yeah
[16:09:44] <Skyla> mhm
[16:09:56] <FMD> And I assume it would also block Spikes + Spike Cannon completely because of the wording...
[16:09:59] <Texas> i dont think it block future sight
[16:10:36] <Texas> FMD considering stuff like twave+thundershock gets around taunt, i'd assume spikes takes on the attacking quality of spike cannon and gets through MG
[16:11:44] * Alakazam has quit (Quit: Alakazam used Teleport!)
[16:11:49] <FMD> But that would be because the combo as a whole is a damaging move, which Taunt doesn't stop. I see it more like a sub that triggers on Toxic also triggering on Toxic + Venoshock.
[16:13:19] <Skyla> From the handbook but slightly paraphrased, a combination has the characteristics of both moves involved
[16:13:34] * Toon has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[16:13:45] <FortClasses> !asbmove spike cannon
[16:14:27] <FortClasses> mg doesnt stop you from using spikes
[16:14:37] <FortClasses> It prevents the user from taking spikes dmg
[16:15:12] <FMD> Rock Slide + Stealth Rock would still count as Stealth Rock, so it wouldn't deal damage from the move as it is considered damage from Stealth Rock... at least the way it's worded now.
[16:15:33] * smashlloyd (~androirc@E6790CEC:54DD5538:2E58CACF:IP) has joined
[16:15:41] <smashlloyd> Hi asb
[16:16:18] <smashlloyd> !asbmove dig
[16:16:30] <Texas> FMD i can say this much with total certainty
[16:16:55] <Texas> Magic Guard would only block that which it would ordinarily block
[16:17:08] <Texas> you'll never see MG blocking what would typically be direct damage
[16:17:55] <smashlloyd> !asbtype flying
[16:17:59] <Texas> also I'm finding it alarming that every day I look in this chat and find you discussing a new potential exploit you've found from potential differences of rule interpretations
[16:18:02] <Texas> shades of TDRS
[16:18:04] <Texas> i dont like it
[16:18:08] <FMD> It would count as Stealth Rock damage which, as it's worded, Magic Guard prevents.
[16:18:09] <Texas> means more work for me >_>
[16:18:30] <Texas> Uh
[16:18:41] <Texas> No i don't see any way that is a reasonable interpretation
[16:18:47] <smashlloyd> !asbmove avalanche
[16:18:57] <smashlloyd> Oookay
[16:19:00] <Texas> to be clear, you're suggesting that rock slide+stealth rock would be considered SR damage for the purposes of magic guard
[16:19:11] <Texas> SR damage is inflicted only on switch in
[16:19:17] <Stratos> what no it wont
[16:19:21] <Stratos> that would be RS damage for sure
[16:19:34] <Rainman> we must make every rule explicit
[16:19:45] <Rainman> because the entirity of ASB has lost all critical thinking skills
[16:20:53] <FMD> The combo would explicitly count as both moves do to combo rules, so the damage is considered to come from both Rock Slide and Stealth Rock.
[16:21:32] <Rainman> ffs
[16:21:40] <FMD> Would Magic Guard block the 5 BAP version of Stealth Rock in the Roark sim?
[16:21:51] <smashlloyd> Hmm
[16:22:18] <Skyla> I would think so
[16:22:24] <Rainman> ask IAR
[16:22:27] <Texas> I'm not familiar with the Roark sim to comment
[16:22:30] <Rainman> hes teh one that codified it
[16:23:13] <FMD> All it does is make the move 5 BAP instead of non-damaging. How would you personally rule that?
[16:23:33] <Texas> As for the other, the combo may take on the properties of both moves, but you can also argue that that applies to how they deal damage, in that damage is dealth directly from the rock slide base and indirectly from the SR base
[16:23:56] <Texas> if SR has been codified as an attack that deals direct damage with a codified BAP, if it's functionally equivalent to scratch
[16:24:01] <Texas> then magic guard will not block it
[16:24:14] <Skyla> But magic guard singles it out
[16:24:25] <Skyla> As opposed to saying its regular text
[16:24:27] <Texas> Magic Guard is desgined with standard pokemon rules in mind
[16:24:32] <Skyla> Of blocking residual damage
[16:24:53] <Texas> This is a simple matter of extending the logical process that if SR is no longer codified as residual damage
[16:24:58] <Texas> then magic guard cannot block it
[16:25:09] <FMD> In Earthquake + Earth Power against a Pokemon using Counter, how do you calculate the damage Counter reflects?
[16:25:15] <Rainman> my ruling is you guys are overthinking this
[16:25:25] <FMD> That's not what the ability says, Texas.
[16:25:33] <Skyla> All since it is both FMD
[16:25:41] <Rainman> physical side
[16:25:54] <Skyla> Wait just one side?
[16:26:08] <Texas> FMD I don't really care
[16:26:25] <Texas> You can be an obsessively literal individual and try and argue every niggle if you like
[16:26:28] <Texas> I prefer to use common sense
[16:26:28] <FMD> But in that combo's damage, what part of it is physical?
[16:26:51] <Texas> the ability was designed with a standard game in mind
[16:27:01] <Texas> the sim has gone outside of th game to chagne mechanics
[16:27:10] <Texas> the definition of the ability cannot be expected to account for that
[16:27:33] <Skyla> Tbh im having a realization that this game has an anti-pedantic clause, but we argue pedantically over everything
[16:27:51] <Rainman> you know we cleared up the NDA descriptions because people complained theyre too long
[16:27:59] <Rainman> and now we have people complaining its not explicit enough
[16:28:41] <Skyla> I call that a no win situation
[16:29:07] <FortClasses> lmao
[16:29:12] <FMD> Or you could reword it to be both concise and clear.
[16:29:41] <FortClasses> and yet to be concise, you need to reword stuff
[16:29:43] <Rainman> we tried that and people still complained its too long because "It should be obvious"
[16:29:48] <FortClasses> And omit stuff
[16:29:59] <Texas> I have an idea
[16:30:32] <Rainman> stop overthinking shit?
[16:30:40] <Texas> Instead of pointing out every possible flaw you can to people to whom it doesn't matter, why not take the initiative and attempt to reword the aforementioned concisely and clearly of your own volition
[16:31:09] <Skyla> Ooh nice idea
[16:31:50] <Rainman> !asbmove magnetic flux
[16:31:59] <smashlloyd> Fort I found another hole
[16:32:00] <smashlloyd> Zzz
[16:32:02] <Rainman> goddam this move is useless
[16:32:40] <Skyla> !asbmove magneticflux
[16:32:55] <FortClasses> smashlloyd
[16:32:57] <FortClasses> ;_;
[16:33:02] <FortClasses> just sub for 3/5 things
[16:33:09] <FortClasses> and hope i dont catch thenother two
[16:33:17] <FortClasses> or just rely on your massive af bulk
[16:33:27] <FortClasses> and not care about it
[16:33:35] <FortClasses> dig does 1.5 damage
[16:33:36] <FMD> Pokemon with this ability are immune to damage from entry hazards as well as residual damage not caused by Future Sight or Doom Desire. It can still attack itself in confusion, and will still take damage from it. Additionally, the energy protects the Pokemon from its own reckless recoil attacks. Toxic still increases in damage each round, although if...
[16:33:37] <FMD> ...Magic Guard is in effect, the Pokemon will not suffer any damage. Life Orb recoil is negated.
[16:33:41] <FortClasses> so just like yeah....
[16:34:05] <FortClasses> Thats not concise
[16:34:34] <Texas> !magic guard
[16:34:37] <Skyla> Actually thats very cleat
[16:34:49] <FMD> Compared to listing out 5 moves, a class of moves and two statuses, it is.
[16:35:29] <Texas> So what I would recommend you to do FMD, is when you notice an issue as such, post the original and your revised version in the feedback thread, and provide a brief commentary on the differences between the two and why the change is relevant, in this case the aformentioned interactions with combos and RPs

 

[Frosty]

IMO Combos involving SR don't have SR doing the damage. It has been ruled before that the damage is done entirely by Rock Slide and the rocks simply stay. The same being valid to spikes and what-not.

So I would say the current version already contemplates what you want. But we can revise the writing. Since it doesn't mean any change we can do it directly via fiating. IMO.

I can't do that right now. But if any mod feels like rewriting it before I can do so, feel free. Or if you disagree with me then fu say so.

 

[Dogfish44]

09:56:43 ~ <&afkfish44> http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-8-final-product.55547/ - Petition to give Cyclohm Swagger in ASB because it canonically actually learns it =|
09:56:47 ~ * afkfish44 is now known as dogfish44
09:58:04 ~ <Alakazam> fire punch cyclohm
09:58:20 ~ <Alakazam> and vacuum wave
09:58:34 ~ <&dogfish44> ... when did they fix cyclohm lol
10:06:26 ~ <&dogfish44> ugh, seriously, nobody bothered to check for TM-mandated movepools when they let one single person update Cyclohm as a mon basically completely? -_-
10:06:59 ~ <FMD> Swagger? <.<
10:07:27 ~ <&dogfish44> Yep, apparently in the update it got cut. And didn't get mentioned.
10:07:31 ~ <Alakazam> where were the updates?
10:07:44 ~ <&dogfish44> http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/movepool-revisions-cyclohm.74951/

---

Can we do the thing we do where we occasionally realise that CAP enjoys tap-dancing on flavour's grave, and update to be sensible please? :|

 

[Frosty]

Zystral did mention he removed some status/support moves "such as" (which denotes that the actual list is longer). He probably didn't mention Swagger literally because lol swagger. But it was there on the old movepool he pasted and isn't on the new one and his reasoning make it seem that it was hard to remove moves, which makes it likely that he has to resort to removing universal moves to make ends meet...everything makes me believe it was something he did on purpose, even if without solid justifications. And the community or at least the leadership agreed so the fact that one person did it is moot.

I don't mind disagreeing with CAP, but we gotta treat it the same way as the canon mons. GF only recently added Flare Blitz to Flareon's movepool, even though it had every reason in the world to learn it from gen IV when the move was introduced. We have a thousand instances where GF "tap danced on flavour's grave", but they are the ones that decide things, not us. Heck, one of the pillars of how the metagame works is that we don't usually mess around with what the game (canon or cap) gave us. There is even a big pinned topic yelling at the community for trying to mess with cap votes.

overriding GF or CAP is extremely exceptional (no including sig items, because one thing is to give a move as a boost and another is saying mon X is supposed to have move Y by default) and, as far as moves are concerned, it has been done only once in ASB's history in a very dubious move that was fortunately corrected by GF itself when gev VI came (I am talking about camouflage kecleon btw). I'd rather do this only with very very very very very very very very very very very very (you get it) good reasons. And frankly I see no reason to add Swagger. Other than to put cyclohm at the lovely 90-move count. For me it is clear that, regardless the lack of sure justification or the actual merit of the change, the removal of swagger was by design and not an error in copying and pasting and, as such, it must be respected if we want to be coherent to what we do with GF. IMO.

 

[JJayyFeather]

Alright this needs to be addressed.

NDA Protect

The Pokemon erects a barrier that prevents any move that targets the user from taking effect for the turn it is used in. Attacks will not miss when used on the Pokemon but will not have any effect. Attacks targetting the field will succeed as normal. This move fails if used on successive actions, or after Detect, Agility (Evasive), Teleport (Evasive), or the Dodge Command. In a multi-battle, Protect may be shifted to an ally, but it then has zero (0) priority and uses the target's typing, defenses, and stage boosts for purposes of calculating extra energy cost. Protect will only protect the user if used in a combination such as Protect + Light Screen, Reflect, and Safeguard. Whilst a Pokemon is under the effect of Protect it is immune to critical hits.

In-Game Protect

Enables the user to evade all attacks. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession.

From Bulbapedia
Further reading of the page on Bulbapedia mentions that only consecutive, successful uses reduce the success chance.

So here's the problem: Protective/Evasive moves and Dodge Command in ASB all have the same generic failure condition text (This move fails if used on successive actions, or after [list of other P/E moves and Dodge Command]). But I have now been a part of two instances where the ruling on how it is to be ruled has been different.

Case 1: My first Anime Style Simulator battle in which I used Teleport (Evasive) and failed, but then also failed on the next usage based on the NDA description of the move
Case 2: Frosty's current Simulator in which Protect was forced for an additional 2a, but he claims that the last one should have worked based on the way that it works In-Game.

Here's what I think about this. I'm not sure if the writing of the ASB version of Protect was intentionally done to leave out that part of the Protect description. However, I do think that the NDA needs to be a concise location with all the proper wording in order to specify what constitutes a fail. Because while I thoroughly agree that Frosty's opinion is correct (and hence why I ordered that way in my Sim), I also get that ASB has quite a few deviants from in-game and that this could be one of them.

Solution Proposition
If we are going to leave this as is, then that means we are going with the interpretation from Case 1, and as thus need to continue using that.
However, if we are going to interpret it as in Case 2 from Frosty, then the descriptions of all of the P/E moves and the Dodge Command need to be updated appropriately to say "This move fails if it was used successfully on the previous action, or if [List of P/E moves and Dodge Command] was used successfully on the previous action"

I don't really care which way this goes, but I need this to be cleared up so I do not make any more "mistakes" because of faulty interpretations.

EDIT @ Below: Yeah go fix the NDA

 

[Mowtom]

Supporting the in-game version. As does the Handbook. Someone should probably fix the wording of the NDA.

Q: What happens if I Encore a Pokemon on action 2 that used Protect on action 1 and I go before that Pokemon on action 2?
A: The Pokemon is forced to use Protect on actions 2 and 3. Since it successfully used Protect on action 1, the attempt on action 2 fails. Because that attempt fails, the one on action 3 succeeds. The Pokemon then cannot be affected by Encore on action 1 of the next round.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Healing Wish is a terrible, terrible move

[19:16:16] -ASBot- Healing Wish - Psychic | Other | User | -- BAP | -- Acc | 22 EN Cost | -- Eff% | Contact: No | 0 Prio | Combo Type: Passive | Snatch: Yes | Magic Coat: No
[19:16:17] -ASBot- The user funnels all of its energy into a pink glowing orb, launches it at an ally, and faints. The pink orb infuses itself into the ally, restoring 20 HP and curing all status ailments. In a switch battle, this move can be applied to the Pokemon that switches in after the user of Healing Wish, and the user's option.

20 HP is nothing. It's barely an attack for most Pokemon. That the move doesn't even heal EN means there is no reason to ever this move. And it costs 22 EN to use.

In order to positively balance this move, I recommend the HP healing be increased to 35, and HW also heal for 20 energy of the recipient.


The end result being a 22 EN move that causes the user to faint in exchange for +35/20 of a partner.


To my eyes, this results in the move becoming balanced, not something you'll ever use often, but something worth considering in a pinch. As compared to its current status of never in a million years usage.

edit: fwiw lunar dance currently heals +25% to both HP and EN

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

I may give more thoughts on this in the future, but seconding Texas.

21:56 Exclaimer Wish seems like a better alternative lol
21:56 YAS it does
21:57 YAS wish oftentimes heals for more HP
21:57 YAS and doesn't kill anyone

For reference, assuming an average mon with 100 HP, Wish costs 14 EN and heals for 25 HP. For those keeping count at home, that's 5 more HP for 8 less EN. Also nobody dies.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

After some irc discussion we've revised my proposal to the following:

HP healing: 20 --> 25
EN healing: 0 --> 20
EN cost: 22 --> 15
Add clause: requires full EN to use


(side note, we should consider adding "must have enough en" to all self-ko moves possibly excluding final gambit. i think that began to be convention with explosion etc but never got extended because literally no-one uses the self-ko moves. also side note, we should drop mementos En cost to really low, considering how bad its effect is 15 is a bit silly. ALSO side note, lunar dance doesn't currently heal from status in ASB, but it does in-game, we should fix)

 

[JJayyFeather]

Problem: Substitute has an excessively lengthy description for how it works in regards to blocking damage and other things.

Solution: Just say that Substitute functions as it does with the exception of the selectable HP values

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

Problem: Substitute has an excessively lengthy description for how it works in regards to blocking damage and other things.

Solution: Just say that Substitute functions as it does with the exception of the selectable HP values

I for one don't see much of a problem with this? First of all, ASB sub works a fair bit differently from in-game sub, with spillover damage / damage rounding to determine when the sub breaks / maybe some other things I'm forgetting. I feel the current description just saves everyone some time by avoiding all the inevitable "how does HP rounding work on subs? / how does Bulldoze work if I'm behind a sub / what happens if I use Wood Hammer on a mon behind a sub?" posts in the feedback thread. In my opinion, that's more desirable than saving the five seconds of your time that it would take to read the full description.

I could be wrong tho.

 

[JJayyFeather]

Well there are some distinguished differences, but mostly I mean removing the list of moves and things blocked by Substitutes when Bulbapedia and Veekun have full lists of it, and people referencing the NDA for that are misled by the short list.

 

[Mowtom]

So then add "For a full list of effects blocked by Susbtitute, go to [link]"

 

[Dogfish44]

Items are too expensive. Like, there's a reason that people tend to get a shitton of mons, and that's because for the cost of 1 Expert Belt you could get 3 Fire/Water/Grass starter sets, and an Eevee to boot.

Can we consider cutting prices down a lot? Like, 50%?

 

[Frosty]

I'd be more inclined to widen our choices of items tbh. 20CC on the 20CC isn't worth it because most 20CC items sure aren't worth that much. I feel we could use better items in that regard, so we aren't too centralized on sig items (like we are now).

That being said, I agree with that due to one simple reason: Everstone/Rare Candy cost 15CC. And they are the best items there is easily. IMO we could put like Expert Belt at that range and then rework all the other items to either cost less or be better.