Resource VGC 16: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

[Psynergy]

Usually when you have a Ferrothorn weakness, Rayquaza swaps out its special move for Overheat/Flamethrower instead of running two of them. A case could be made for running both special moves if you're running Ray/Xern but you generally don't need to run both. Physically based LO Rayquaza typically does a better job due to OHKOing 0 HP Kyogre and being able to OHKO standard Xerneas after minor chip damage (or with no chip damage if you're an RNG god and get the ~20% rolls every time). Extreme Speed is also such a useful priority for being able to bypass redirection and offering reasonably strong chip damage in an emergency, and since Rayquaza hates Trick Room unless it's like up against +2 Xerneas or a Mega Salamence the utility that Extreme Speed offers is usually too good to pass up (we're talking about an ESpeed that's only ~5% weaker than the same ESpeed from Ekiller Arceus).

For the special slot I'm a bigger fan of Draco Meteor since it's arguably the best general use move there though if you really need the Ferrothorn answer, I'd drop Draco Meteor for Overheat/Flamethrower. Alternatively consider adding another Ferrothorn check like Talonflame, Infernape or some other Fire and/or Fighting type, but otherwise remember that Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent still does 75% minimum to common Ferrothorn (252 HP / 0 Def) because Mega Ray is stupid strong.

 

[Misdreavus]

Usually when you have a Ferrothorn weakness, Rayquaza swaps out its special move for Overheat/Flamethrower instead of running two of them. A case could be made for running both special moves if you're running Ray/Xern but you generally don't need to run both. Physically based LO Rayquaza typically does a better job due to OHKOing 0 HP Kyogre and being able to OHKO standard Xerneas after minor chip damage (or with no chip damage if you're an RNG god and get the ~20% rolls every time). Extreme Speed is also such a useful priority for being able to bypass redirection and offering reasonably strong chip damage in an emergency, and since Rayquaza hates Trick Room unless it's like up against +2 Xerneas or a Mega Salamence the utility that Extreme Speed offers is usually too good to pass up (we're talking about an ESpeed that's only ~5% weaker than the same ESpeed from Ekiller Arceus).

For the special slot I'm a bigger fan of Draco Meteor since it's arguably the best general use move there though if you really need the Ferrothorn answer, I'd drop Draco Meteor for Overheat/Flamethrower. Alternatively consider adding another Ferrothorn check like Talonflame, Infernape or some other Fire and/or Fighting type, but otherwise remember that Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent still does 75% minimum to common Ferrothorn (252 HP / 0 Def) because Mega Ray is stupid strong.

My team is M-Rayquaza / Primal Kyogre / Thundurus / Landorus-T / Ferrothorn / Cresselia. I like Draco Meteor though because it's so good against Primal Groudon. What Ray moveset would you recommend for my team? Could you see Protect possibly being dropped so that I could run all 4 attacks?

 

[Psynergy]

My team is M-Rayquaza / Primal Kyogre / Thundurus / Landorus-T / Ferrothorn / Cresselia. I like Draco Meteor though because it's so good against Primal Groudon. What Ray moveset would you recommend for my team? Could you see Protect possibly being dropped so that I could run all 4 attacks?

That team can afford to give up Draco Meteor since you're not really weak to it. The combination of Kyogre + Rayquaza support can already handle Groudon without Draco Meteor, and Landorus can also take a good chunk off it since you have plenty of teammates you can EQ next to safely. Draco Meteor is still definitely good for times when you have Kyogre alongside it and sun is up but otherwise you don't necessarily need it (although hitting other Dragons for SE damage is definitely worthwhile too). I'd say the decision between Draco Meteor and Overheat hinges on whether you want something to OHKO Groudon and other Dragons or a reliable way to OHKO Ferrothorn. You can consider Talonflame over one of the other team slots for another option though.

Also Rayquaza generally wants to have Protect unless it's running Choice Band since Ray tends to often be targeted due to how immediately threatening it is without boosts. Being able to avoid being completely open all the time is something Ray wants, so unless you're running Focus Sash or Choice Band, dropping Protect is too risky.

 

[Pyritie]

Why isn't mega metagross used more often? Is it too weak to common pokemon, or is the opportunity cost of using it over something else the problem?

 

[nightwolf]

Why isn't mega metagross used more often? Is it too weak to common pokemon, or is the opportunity cost of using it over something else the problem?

I would assume it would be the former instead of the latter, with primal groudon running around with things like earth power and percipice blade, one would think m-metagross doesn't do too well against it.

 

[Albus]

Why isn't mega metagross used more often? Is it too weak to common pokemon, or is the opportunity cost of using it over something else the problem?

A combination of both if you ask me. Some of the biggest threats in the metagame can easily take a hit from it and severy damage, if not outright destroying it in return (PDon obviously, POgre hits it like a truck with OP/Scald, Yveltal can easily pick it off with a Sucker Punch if it doesn't have a Sub, and so on...) and the opportunity cost of it taking a slot over a more relevant Steel type AND a Mega Slot makes it feel more of a niche outclassed pick than anything else.

 

[Misdreavus]

After reading this, is there any reason why a lot of Cresselia don't run 252 HP?

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Why isn't mega metagross used more often? Is it too weak to common pokemon, or is the opportunity cost of using it over something else the problem?

Because it's "one of those things that only Titan actually uses".
It's killed by Pdon, but so is 98% of the fucking metagame, so that's not really a reason to completely dismiss it. Yveltal, Ho-Oh and Giratina smash it, and there's very little it can do in return. Dialga and Metagross wall each other, but Dialga has Earth Power. Aegislash also exists. That is, imo, the reason you don't see it.
It is however, quite good against Xern, Landog, Rayquaza, Mega Mawile, Cresselia, Mega Salamence, Crobat, Mewtwo, etc.
Even at +2, it can tank Xern's Moonblast and fire back with the second-most brutal Iron Head there is. Kyogre, you can tank 252+ Origin Pulse 75% of the time with no investment, 44 HP / 12 Sp. Def will tank the hit 100% of the time and not detract much Atk. Zen Headbutt usually 2HKO's back unless it's stupidly bulky.

After reading this, is there any reason why a lot of Cresselia don't run 252 HP?

Ah, complicated to explain, but basically because of Cresselia's high HP, you can minimize the damage it takes more efficiently* by investing in Def / Sp. def, than HP alone.

* using less EVs overall

 

[Misdreavus]

Ah, complicated to explain, but basically because of Cresselia's high HP, you can minimize the damage it takes more efficiently* by investing in Def / Sp. def, than HP alone.

* using less EVs overall

Thanks. Do you have a good, maximally-efficient EV spread for Sassy Cress? 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD was suggested to me. I do have Intimidate on my team, but how often I'll use Landorus-T and Cresselia together remains to be seen.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Thanks. Do you have a good, maximally-efficient EV spread for Sassy Cress? 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD was suggested to me.

Would you believe me if I said "No, and I run a 252 HP Cress in doubles despite my previous post"? lol.
That spread I've seen a few times; tanks Specs Hydreigon, Aegislash, and a few other things. Its a BSD / VGC15 spread iirc.
Should be fine for '16 though.

 

[nicholascookie]

Why isn't mega metagross used more often? Is it too weak to common pokemon, or is the opportunity cost of using it over something else the problem?

Can't KO Xerneas

the end

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Can't KO Xerneas

the end

One does not need math to call BS, but I did it anyway.

math

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xerneas: 204-242 (87.5 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xerneas: 102-122 (43.7 - 52.3%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 110-130 (70.5 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 140-166 (89.7 - 106.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (not exactly great odds, plus MegaGross can run bulk)

Definetly kills Xern, even on a bad day.

 

[Misdreavus]

Going back to the Cresselia EVs question, I was going to run 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD, which is what was originally recommended to me (and is conveniently exactly the amount of Defense that is needed to survive a Helping Hand + Life Orb Dragon Ascent from Jolly M-Rayquaza), but someone on NuggetBridge suggested I might want to invest enough Defense to survive Jolly M-Kangaskhan's Double-Edge + Adamant Talonflame's Life Orb Brave Bird. That would be 252 HP / 188 Def. Is that worth it or not?

 

[nicholascookie]

One does not need math to call BS, but I did it anyway.

math

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xerneas: 204-242 (87.5 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xerneas: 102-122 (43.7 - 52.3%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 110-130 (70.5 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 140-166 (89.7 - 106.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (not exactly great odds, plus MegaGross can run bulk)

Definetly kills Xern, even on a bad day.

No 100% = can't KO, don't play with the dice that's fucking retarded

Standard xern:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 44 Def Xerneas: 194-230 (96 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Only 100%s 4 HP but only bad players run that piece of shit spread

 

[ProjectTitan313]

No 100% = can't KO, don't play with the dice that's fucking retarded

Standard xern:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 44 Def Xerneas: 194-230 (96 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Only 100%s 4 HP but only bad players run that piece of shit spread

Would you set up or even leave Xerneas in against a Mega Metagross, knowing:
1) it's a 75% chance you'll outright die in one turn to Iron Head at full HP
2) It may know Meteor Mash instead, to pick up the KO that Iron Head may or may not pick up.
3) If you live, there's a very reasonable chance it could run Bullet Punch and can just priority KO you before you do anything.
4) If it doesn't know Bullet Punch, you can't KO it without a crit or significant chip damage and WILL die to the retalitory, 100% accurate hit.
5) If you do get extremely lucky, you have a 4% HP Xerneas at best.
6) It has a partner that probably knows something other than Splash + 3 Dragon type moves that will pick off that last sliver of 4% HP if you live, or do something productive in the 2 turns Xerneas needs to even tickle MegaGross.

In 99% of cases, MegaGross will win. I don't see what the issue is here. Xern only ever comes out ahead if you miss Meteor Mash -> Geomancy -> Critical Moonblast or a high damage roll HP Ground on uninvested MegaGross. I'm not rolling dice. Iron head alone is virtually guarenteed to win, Meteor Mash is an even greater chance, and Iron Head + Bullet punch is abolutely 100% guarenteed to crush Xern before it ever does anything productive.

Going back to the Cresselia EVs question, I was going to run 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD, which is what was originally recommended to me (and is conveniently exactly the amount of Defense that is needed to survive a Helping Hand + Life Orb Dragon Ascent from Jolly M-Rayquaza), but someone on NuggetBridge suggested I might want to invest enough Defense to survive Jolly M-Kangaskhan's Double-Edge + Adamant Talonflame's Life Orb Brave Bird. That would be 252 HP / 188 Def. Is that worth it or not?

imo 252/188 sounds good, with the rest in Sp. def.

 

[Unbreakable]

I'm going out for my first VGC format tourney, a dinky little local thing at a Gamestop.

What are some general tactics and strategies I should know so I don't lose to some snot-nosed preteen? I could teambuild until the Miltank come home, but I only have a month. That's not long enough to "git gud."

 

[Misdreavus]

I'm going out for my first VGC format tourney, a dinky little local thing at a Gamestop.

What are some general tactics and strategies I should know so I don't lose to some snot-nosed preteen? I could teambuild until the Miltank come home, but I only have a month. That's not long enough to "git gud."

I don't know if you can expect high-level competition at a small GameStop tournament, but be familiar with double battles and the very general strategies of doubles (Earthquake + Protect, etc.). If you want to enhance your knowledge of the VGC metagame, learn about the most popular team - the "standard 6" team (Primal Groudon, Xerneas, M-Kangaskhan, M-Salamence, Smeargle, Talonflame), read some RMTs on here and on NuggetBridge, and test for yourself on Battle Spot special ranking matches. Good luck!

 

[antronach]

I had an idea about using Pickpocket Shiftry to counter Simple Beam + Geomancy Xerneas. Problem being; would Shiftry's usage be too niche to include? I've seen the Simple Beam + Geomancy combo fly around here a few times and I thought that it'd be a bit too dominating. The only Simple Beam users Shiftry would have a problem with would be Mega Adunio, who would take up a Mega slot, and Genesect, who would take up a Uber slot. However, if Shiftry were on you team and the opponent didn't have a Simple Beam user, it'd be deadweight. So I'm a little stuck weather or not I should include it.

 

[Psynergy]

I had an idea about using Pickpocket Shiftry to counter Simple Beam + Geomancy Xerneas. Problem being; would Shiftry's usage be too niche to include? I've seen the Simple Beam + Geomancy combo fly around here a few times and I thought that it'd be a bit too dominating. The only Simple Beam users Shiftry would have a problem with would be Mega Adunio, who would take up a Mega slot, and Genesect, who would take up a Uber slot. However, if Shiftry were on you team and the opponent didn't have a Simple Beam user, it'd be deadweight. So I'm a little stuck weather or not I should include it.

Genesect is actually banned along with all the Mythical Pokemon so that's not a concern, and Mega Audino is a waste when other Mega options include monsters like Rayquaza, Kangaskhan and Salamence. However, Simple Beam + Xerneas actually isn't very common. All Simple Beam users are too niche or outright bad so I wouldn't worry about trying to counter that. The issue with it is that while Xerneas may be incredibly dangerous once it sets up, it needs Fake Out and redirection support or it risks going down before accomplishing anything. Trying to give Xerneas Simple is often not worth the effort since the regular boost is usually more than enough, and after it sets up you want the partner to be handling any obstacles that may come up to try and stop Xerneas, which Simple Beam doesn't really accomplish.

 

[Misdreavus]

Is it true that the amount of CP required for a Worlds invite is yet to be determined? If so, what was it last year, and was that number considered too high, too low, or moderate?

I thought it was 300, same as TCG.

 

[rcade216]

Is it true that the amount of CP required for a Worlds invite is yet to be determined? If so, what was it last year, and was that number considered too high, too low, or moderate?

I thought it was 300, same as TCG.

http://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/worlds/2016/vg-competitor-information/

Depends on your location and age group.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Does Xerneas often run 252 EVs + Modest or does it generally run Timid?
Does Mega Ray often run 252 EVs + Naive, or are Naive sets mostly physical with little to no Sp. Atk investment?

 

[Psynergy]

Does Xerneas often run 252 EVs + Modest or does it generally run Timid?
Does Mega Ray often run 252 EVs + Naive, or are Naive sets mostly physical with little to no Sp. Atk investment?

The vast majority tend to run Timid Xerneas with a standard 252/252 spread, outspeeding Primals and Rayquaza before it Mega Evolves is super important in the current state of the metagame because they're all massive threats that Xerneas wants to avoid being vulnerable to (especially Rayquaza who would outspeed and has a roughly 20% chance to OHKO Xerneas if it's Modest with no bulk).

Rayquaza also generally runs no special investment on mixed sets, base 180 SpA is still huge without investment. Any of its special coverage options do stupid damage with just the LO boost and just the leftover 4 EV investment, notably OHKOing Primal Groudon with Draco Meteor (assuming no bulk Groudon). Both Naive and Hasty are used but Naive is more common on ladder, depends on if you want to take Primal spread moves better or stuff like Kang Double-Edge and priority in general.

 

[Pyritie]

I'm going to a UK MSS in two weeks, and from what I've seen, the UK loves rayogre.

What are some things rayogre struggles with?

 

[Namikaze]

I'm going to a UK MSS in two weeks, and from what I've seen, the UK loves rayogre.

What are some things rayogre struggles with?

Im not 100 percent sure, but i think that TR palkia is good for that match up. Dialga is even better.
Paralysis really screws with the core as well.