Laxpras
One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
this is why you run mr.mime
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Metagamiate!
- Thread starter Pikachuun
- Start date
Talonflame doesn't get get dual STAB priority as Gale Wings takes first effect. Nice Try though.
Dual stab. Ie, fire quick attack and brave bird.
Can I just ask why Excadrill isn't on the viability rankings? When I played this OM I noticed that almost everyone runs offense and excadrill breaks offense in two under sand. Also it gets unblock able steel rapid spin and extremely powerful
Steel-ate return
And the list goes on an on down the viability rankings. There are some checks that you can't get around like rotom-w and skarmory...
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 175-208 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nvm, you can get through it after an SD. Not only does it 2hko a lot of the meta it outspeeds a lot too. Under sand it outspeeds everything without a scarf (and you still need a really high base speed on top of a scarf to outspeed it)
I reckon it should go for at least A- IMO.
Steel-ate return
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Noivern: 374-441 (120.2 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 265-313 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 338-400 (112.2 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 374-442 (125 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 207-244 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 265-313 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 338-400 (112.2 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 374-442 (125 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 207-244 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 192-227 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 164-192 (42.9 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 164-192 (41.6 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 231-274 (55 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 192-227 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 196-231 (51.5 - 60.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 164-192 (42.9 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 164-192 (41.6 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 231-274 (55 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 192-227 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 196-231 (51.5 - 60.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And the list goes on an on down the viability rankings. There are some checks that you can't get around like rotom-w and skarmory...
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 175-208 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nvm, you can get through it after an SD. Not only does it 2hko a lot of the meta it outspeeds a lot too. Under sand it outspeeds everything without a scarf (and you still need a really high base speed on top of a scarf to outspeed it)
I reckon it should go for at least A- IMO.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Oh yeah forgot to add him in. I will put exca in a- for now, Really good mon vs offense.
So what happens when you run Forest's Curse?
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Huh? WHATTT???? Literally the singlehandedly most splashable pokemon in the tier is in A+???? Honestly, I can't speak for the validity of these rankings due to my lack of experience in the tier, but from everything I've played, Zygarde is probably the single best mon in the entire metagame. I'm not gonna sit here and make some huge argument about it, but seriously, this HAS to be explained.A+
Zygarde
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Tbh, I originally placed it in S as well because I felt the same sentiments as you. The VR team addressed that Steels and Fairies that resist or are immune to Ground (ie: Skarmory, Togekiss) completely wall it, which questions its placement in the top tier. But I too still believe that it can be placed in S due to the previously mentioned Pokemon being worn down quite easily and are not super revelant atm. Maybe other team members can explain the reasoning better :0
I don't know if this has been mentioned anywhere else, but it seems as if this metagame has breathed new life into weather teams, with how offense-oriented it is. I've had some success in particular with Sun and Sand (moreso Sand), probably because they have more available Pokémon with setup abilities and powerful ESpeed users (Arcanine and Entei for Sun, Lucario for Sand). Sand has some easy answers to Pokémon like Noivern, what with the Sp. Def boost the Sand gives, and I do think it is the superior option in terms of a weather team. I have seen Politoed around here and there, but it and the teams it's on haven't really given me much trouble.
Some Stuff:
Physical walls are good because every physical attacker gets STAB return, ESpeed, or Fake Out (Porygon-2, Slowbro)
-Porygon-2 also have a powerful Tri-Attack
This means you should have special attackers (Noivern, Magnezone, Togekiss)
-For Togekiss, use Hyper Voice unless you want some status
Double Edge is for suicidal physical attackers
Physical walls are good because every physical attacker gets STAB return, ESpeed, or Fake Out (Porygon-2, Slowbro)
-Porygon-2 also have a powerful Tri-Attack
This means you should have special attackers (Noivern, Magnezone, Togekiss)
-For Togekiss, use Hyper Voice unless you want some status
Double Edge is for suicidal physical attackers
I don't think I ever made a statement about Zygarde regarding its rank, however I would be inclined to side with S because of how well it can setup and sweep. It handles most of the metagame with only DragonSpeed and EQ, however Skarmory and Togekiss and quite useful in this meta and can destroy Zygarde pretty easily. Since those are the only two, though, I would be okay with a bump up to S.
It's held back by susceptibility to Shiny Weavile's Fake Out/Feint, considerably restricting its attempts to set up against offense, while stall will probably be carrying Unaware and laugh at it. The fact that Skarmory and Togekiss severally hurt it is an additional flaw, but not the only one, and its mediocre base Speed means that other Extreme Speeders can often get in damage if it's not Dragon Dance. (And Dragon Dance is more fragile, returning to susceptibility to Fake Out etc)
It's really really good, but I'm of the opinion it doesn't cross over into "meta-defining", as the things that handle it tend to be run anyway, unrelated to Zygarde's presence in the meta.
It's really really good, but I'm of the opinion it doesn't cross over into "meta-defining", as the things that handle it tend to be run anyway, unrelated to Zygarde's presence in the meta.
I made a visual chart of Pokemon that can learn various useful Normal type moves separated by type, which should make it easier to identify new niches. I left off Normal type users despite the Regulate boost, because they'd be using those moves anyway. I also didn't make lists for moves like Return/Facade due to their high distribution. If a Pokemon isn't on the list, it a) was NFE with having a real purpose, b) it already has the specific -ate ability (Mega Glalie) or c) I missed it.
Body Slam:
While you lose 17 BP from using Body Slam over Return, you also gain a 30% Paralysis chance. This makes it a similar move to Scald, and might be worth using on more defensive Pokemon.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fairy:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Steel:
Water:
Boomburst:
Boomburst is one of the strongest special moves in the game. If you're using one of these Pokemon, use this move.
Dragon:
Flying:
Ground:
Double-Edge:
Double-Edge has lower distribution than Return, but a significant power increase. In return, you have to stomach the additional recoil.
NOTE: Every Gen 1-3 Pokemon that can use move tutors can learn Double-Edge in FRLG, so those cases will not be listed here. Note that this means you'll also be unable to use hidden abilities with these Pokemon.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fairy:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Steel:
Water:
Explosion:
Explosion isn't seen much in standard because a) nearly nothing gets STAB on it and b) you faint after use. This meta doesn't solve the second issue, but it still gives you an incredibly powerful STAB attack that can even occasionally OHKO Pokemon that resist the attack.
Bug:
Dark:
Electric:
Fairy:
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Steel:
Water:
Extreme Speed:
Extreme Speed out-prioritizes nearly every other move, with a solid BP to boot. Use it if you can.
Dragon:
Electric:
Fairy:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Steel:
Water:
Fake Out:
Fake Out does damage and stalls out a turn. It has several uses, but any Pokemon appreciates high-priority damage.
Dark:
Electric:
Fairy:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Water:
Quick Attack:
Most priority stays at 40 BP, and is limited to a few select types. Quick Attack not only surpasses that threshold thanks to the -ate boost, but its also available in a variety of flavors.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Steel:
Water:
Rapid Spin:
Rapid Spin doesn't especially benefit from STAB due to its low BP, but different types are harder to block. Note that some "Unblockable" types can still be stopped by abilities, like Storm Drain or Flash Fire.
Blockable:
Unblockable:
Tri Attack/Nature Power:
While 80 BP is a far cry from the 140 BP Boomburst, Tri Attack is still solid for special attackers that lack good special STAB. Nature Power calls Tri Attack and gets the -ate boost, which is good because otherwise Tri Attack has terrible distribution.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fairy:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ground:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Steel:
Water:
While you lose 17 BP from using Body Slam over Return, you also gain a 30% Paralysis chance. This makes it a similar move to Scald, and might be worth using on more defensive Pokemon.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fairy:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Steel:
Water:
Boomburst:
Boomburst is one of the strongest special moves in the game. If you're using one of these Pokemon, use this move.
Dragon:
Flying:
Ground:
Double-Edge:
Double-Edge has lower distribution than Return, but a significant power increase. In return, you have to stomach the additional recoil.
NOTE: Every Gen 1-3 Pokemon that can use move tutors can learn Double-Edge in FRLG, so those cases will not be listed here. Note that this means you'll also be unable to use hidden abilities with these Pokemon.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fairy:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Steel:
Water:
Explosion:
Explosion isn't seen much in standard because a) nearly nothing gets STAB on it and b) you faint after use. This meta doesn't solve the second issue, but it still gives you an incredibly powerful STAB attack that can even occasionally OHKO Pokemon that resist the attack.
Bug:
Dark:
Electric:
Fairy:
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Steel:
Water:
Extreme Speed:
Extreme Speed out-prioritizes nearly every other move, with a solid BP to boot. Use it if you can.
Dragon:
Electric:
Fairy:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Steel:
Water:
Fake Out:
Fake Out does damage and stalls out a turn. It has several uses, but any Pokemon appreciates high-priority damage.
Dark:
Electric:
Fairy:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Water:
Quick Attack:
Most priority stays at 40 BP, and is limited to a few select types. Quick Attack not only surpasses that threshold thanks to the -ate boost, but its also available in a variety of flavors.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Steel:
Water:
Rapid Spin:
Rapid Spin doesn't especially benefit from STAB due to its low BP, but different types are harder to block. Note that some "Unblockable" types can still be stopped by abilities, like Storm Drain or Flash Fire.
Blockable:
Unblockable:
Tri Attack/Nature Power:
While 80 BP is a far cry from the 140 BP Boomburst, Tri Attack is still solid for special attackers that lack good special STAB. Nature Power calls Tri Attack and gets the -ate boost, which is good because otherwise Tri Attack has terrible distribution.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fairy:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ground:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Steel:
Water:
Last edited:
bp scrub
rub a dub dub one scrub in a tub
Small nitpick i guess, but both of the S tier megas (Metagross and Medicham) get Double Edge, and Zygarde cannot have ground-ate due to being shiny locked
Thanks a bunch for this, it's pretty awesome and will help quite a bit when building.
Thought there are a few things that you could take off like lucario on the quick attack list.
You also missed charizardX on double edge and quick attack.
Thought there are a few things that you could take off like lucario on the quick attack list.
Feint:
+2 priority enabling it to outpace extremespeed and an effective base power of 39 after the -ate boost giving it the same power as most priority. Also has a different distribution than quick attack.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Steel:
Water:
Hyper Voice:
Special move, goes through sub, yada yada.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fairy: Altaria-Mega, Audino-Mega
Fighting:
, Lopunny-mega
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Water:
+2 priority enabling it to outpace extremespeed and an effective base power of 39 after the -ate boost giving it the same power as most priority. Also has a different distribution than quick attack.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Steel:
Water:
Hyper Voice:
Special move, goes through sub, yada yada.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fairy: Altaria-Mega, Audino-Mega
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Water:
You also missed charizardX on double edge and quick attack.
Last edited:
I added a note on Double-Edge -- forgot it was a Gen 3 tutor, but it seems like pretty much everything learns it. May add them later, but for now I just added a disclaimer. I also removed Zygarde from the "Ground" list on Extreme Speed.
I'll keep totally outclassed moves (Quick Attack Lucario) just because I want it to be a comprehensive list. Some of these Pokemon should never be used, with or without this moves, in the meta (or most other metas lol).
Don't know how I forgot Hyper Voice. :P Thanks for picking up the slack. I purposefully left out Feint because I got the impression that I was running out of space, but it has its uses so I'm glade you covered it.
I'll keep totally outclassed moves (Quick Attack Lucario) just because I want it to be a comprehensive list. Some of these Pokemon should never be used, with or without this moves, in the meta (or most other metas lol).
Don't know how I forgot Hyper Voice. :P Thanks for picking up the slack. I purposefully left out Feint because I got the impression that I was running out of space, but it has its uses so I'm glade you covered it.
Maleovex
Lt. Col. of The Kyergrzstan Killer Beez
Feint is 30 BPThanks a bunch for this, it's pretty awesome and will help quite a bit when building.
Thought there are a few things that you could take off like lucario on the quick attack list.
Feint:
+2 priority enabling it to outpace extremespeed and the same 40 base power as most priority. Also has a different distribution than quick attack.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fighting:
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Steel:
Water:
Hyper Voice:
Special move, goes through sub, yada yada.
Bug:
Dark:
Dragon:
Electric:
Fairy: Altaria-Mega, Audino-Mega
Fighting:, Lopunny-mega
Fire:
Flying:
Ghost:
Grass:
Ground:
Ice:
Poison:
Psychic:
Rock:
Water:
You also missed charizardX on double edge and quick attack.
With the -ate boost it's 40.
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
If we're nitpicking, it's actually 39 after -ate, and the original post used the original base powers (ie Tri-Attack as an 80BP move).
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
This kinda thing should go on his wall to not clutter up the thread (and if you look I VMed him this yesterday)
This too tbh
So this isn't completely bad, here's something fun I've been using: physically defensive Snore Keldeo. !_!
Why would I use such a shitty-sounding (haha get it cuz Snore is a sound move? I'll leave now) gimmick you ask? Well first of all it's fun, and secondly, it actually counters so many of the common mons in the meta it's unreal. Arcanine, Entei, Weavile, Tyranitar, Bisharp, Cloyster, Mega Sharpedo, and Crawdaunt are all hard-countered and bopped by either Secret Sword or Water Snore (obviously you have to use Rest first, but the flinch chance is nice and it destroys the Fire -atespeeders). It can also check Excadrill, Zygarde, Mega Lopunny, and Terrakion. Funnily enough, I've never found it to be dead weight when I used it (mostly cuz Arcanine/Weavile/TTar in particular are so common haha), and while I had really low hopes for it, it by far surpassed my expectations. The Speed control is also really nice allowing you to bash stuff with slower, more powerful mons. Here's the set I used:
Keldeo @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Secret Sword
- Snore
- Rest
- Icy Wind
A fun and surprisingly decent set that you should all try before the month is done imo :)
Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
I've seen a few mentions of stall in several posts, but none really discussing it in depth, so I wrote up some of my thoughts about it from running it on the ladder. Think of this kind of like a guide to stall in metagamiate :P
Altaria has a great typing both offensively and defensively. It provides a counter to threats like Zard-X/Y and Arcanine. It also provides a stall team with offensive presence and a solid win condition. Altaria has reliable recovery in Roost and can also support its team with Heal Bell. The main problem with Altaria is that it is pretty terrible before mega evolving, and it is hard to find good opportunities to mega evolve in such an offensive metagame (Protect can help with that).
Sableye is generally seen as the face of gen 6 stall because of the extreme value of denial that comes from its ability. Sableye itself counters less threats than it does in OU (it still counters some like Medicham), but the sheer value it brings to your team makes it worth considering. Sableye also has other support options like Knock Off, Will-o-Wisp, and Toxic. STAB Foul Play is an often unexpected move that can help to check physical threats.
Scizor provides a lot of good uses for a stall team, including defog support, countering threats, and providing an offensive win condition. Scizor can also help revenge kill using either Quick Attack (more power) or Feint (priority + going through protect).
Not a very common choice, but still worth considering. It can still counter many of what regular Slowbro counters, it just can't use Rocky Helmet to wear down opposing threats. Slowbro-Mega trades that for higher bulk and offensive stats, as well as resistance to Knock Off. It is also a decent win condition for stall teams.
Another uncommon choice. It doesn't provide much direct support for the team, instead it acts as a tank. Does need more team support than other megas though, so this would definitely not be my first choice.
Feel free to try other megas too, although these are probably the most viable ones.
Ah, the quintessential pink blob, blanket counter to 90% of special attackers. Provides team support in the form of Wish, Heal Bell, and Stealth Rocks. Not much to explain here.
A good answer to many physical and special attackers due to its unique typing. Ferro is also one of the best hazard setters in the game.
Landorus-T provides Stealth Rocks as well as a check / counter to many physical attackers. Its attacks are also really strong even when uninvested.
One of the best physical walls in the game. Skarmory can both set hazards or remove them (or both if you're brave enough). It can also run Return over Brave Bird so it doesn't break Sturdy from recoil. One move that people don't use much (and should) is Counter, as it can defeat many physical attackers that Skarmory would otherwise have no way of defeating, like Metagross-Mega.
In my opinion this is probably the best defensive pokemon in the meta. It counters almost every Extreme Speed user and wears them down with Rocky Helmet, and Regenerator allows it to do this again and again throughout the game.
Arcanine is a really good physical tank as it has the bulk and ability (intimidate) to take hits, and it can revenge kill with Extreme Speed. It also has Morning Sun for decent recovery and Will-o-Wisp to cripple physical attackers.
Sheer power is more of a threat than set up in this meta, so Quagsire is not as useful as it is in other metas. It is a good counter to Lucario though as it doesn't fear the Swords Dance.
Stall is pretty uncommon on the ladder, but it's not as bad as some people think it is, and it is definitely viable. If you're interested you should at least give it a try before the OMotM period ends. I promise it's not as boring as people make it to be (but it's definitely as evil as people make it to be >:D). We need more stall players in OMs anyways :P
Probably the most important part of stall is making sure you have a hard counter to all of the major threats, and at least a soft counter / check to less common threats. Here are some of the major offensive threats in the metagame:
(Pokemon with a * next to them can only check / counter one of the -ate versions of a threat and cannot counter both the shiny + non-shiny versions)
(Also, this is not a comprehensive list of all the threats, just the major ones. The counters listed aren't all the counters either, just the more viable ones and the ones that fit on stall teams)
-Ate boosted return from Azumarill hits extremely hard with Huge Power boost, and it has solid coverage for both shiny / non-shiny variants. The extra boost from -Ate also helps it get past some of its usual OU counters like Skarmory (water -ate) and Amoonguss
Counters:
(*)
(*)
(*)
Checks:
Breloom is not very common in Metagamiate due to how it fares poorly against most offense teams, but it is extremely threatening to stall. Just to put it in perspective, boosted Facade has the same power as Boomburst, and Breloom even has a strong attack stat and Swords Dance to back that up. Combine that with Spore and you have a pokemon that is very difficult to counter.
Counters:
(*)
(*)
(*)
Checks:
Charizard-Mega-X is extremely dangerous to stall in this meta because its boosted power and multiple setup moves allow it to force its way past the very few stall counters it had in OU. In Metagamiate, its only true "counter" is defensive Altaria-Mega, and even that is a very shaky counter because Altaria is very pressured to find an opportunity to mega-evolve without getting wounded in the process. Dragon -ate is most common on Zard-X because it already has strong Fire STAB in Flare Blitz, and Dragon -ate allows it to have high power without resorting to using Outrage.
Counters:
Checks:
Landorus is very common on both offense and bulkier teams due to its powerful dual STAB, ability to check many threats, and pivoting ability. Landorus-T is basically always seen with Aerilate because it lacks other Flying STAB and Earthquake is already a very powerful Ground STAB. Although not particularly difficult to wall on stall, it is difficult to get rid of because it can easily pivot out with U-Turn.
Counters:
Checks:
Medicham-Mega has the highest effective attack stat in this meta. It has solid STAB priority in Fake Out for revenge killing, and it also has good coverage in the form of elemental punches. It has a lot of counters due to bad STAB typing and lower power coverage, but it is still a force to be reckoned with.
Counters:
(slowbro should watch out for thunderpunch, though it is somewhat uncommon)
Checks:
Metagross-Mega has insanely high attack with -ate and Tough Claws, as well as good speed and high bulk, making it very threatening for both offense and stall.
Counters:
Checks:
Weavile is a powerful and fast sweeper with two very strong STABs along with Swords Dance to boost. Although Refrigerate is more common due to having solid Dark STAB in Knock Off, Dark -Ate is also viable and deceptively hard to wall.
Counters:
(*)
Checks:
(low kick 2HKO)
Aerodactyl-Mega gains two very viable STAB options to abuse with the Return + ate + Tough Claws combo. Double-Edge can also be run for a ridiculously powerful but suicidal attack. Aerilate is more common due to already having decent STAB in Stone Edge.
Counters:
(*)
(*)
(*)
Checks:
Extremely (lol) strong late game sweeper due to Swords Dance, Extreme Speed, and good coverage. It's basically impossible to counter all variants of Lucario in one pokemon, which makes it even more threatening. Both Fighting and Steel -ate have their merits but from what I've seen Fight -ate is more common. I'd advise to be extra careful when facing this as in the late game it is very easy for the opponent to have weakened your team to the point where Lucario cleans the game.
Counters/Checks:
(Counter/Check could go either way with this due to varied coverage and whether or not it is shiny.
We all know this one. Classic Aerilate Boomburst. Normally would be walled by Chansey, but Switcheroo makes switching in very risky, and U-Turn allows it to eventually wear down Chans with chip damage.
Honorable Mentions:
Counters:
Checks:
(be careful about Switcheroo. Nothing much you can do about that though.)
Honorable Mentions:
Still pretty low power, more of a problem for offensive teams.
Countered by Skarm lol.
Apparently a big problem for offense teams, but stall handles it very easily.
Easily countered by Slowbro, although Will-o-Wisp is annoying.
Big pain in the ass, but mostly countered by Skarm / Slowbro / Ferro, and not that common.
Hoopa is always a big threat, but it's strange that I've never actually seen it yet. Can be revenge killed pretty easily though.
(Pokemon with a * next to them can only check / counter one of the -ate versions of a threat and cannot counter both the shiny + non-shiny versions)
(Also, this is not a comprehensive list of all the threats, just the major ones. The counters listed aren't all the counters either, just the more viable ones and the ones that fit on stall teams)
-Ate boosted return from Azumarill hits extremely hard with Huge Power boost, and it has solid coverage for both shiny / non-shiny variants. The extra boost from -Ate also helps it get past some of its usual OU counters like Skarmory (water -ate) and Amoonguss
Counters:
Checks:
Breloom is not very common in Metagamiate due to how it fares poorly against most offense teams, but it is extremely threatening to stall. Just to put it in perspective, boosted Facade has the same power as Boomburst, and Breloom even has a strong attack stat and Swords Dance to back that up. Combine that with Spore and you have a pokemon that is very difficult to counter.
Counters:
Checks:
Charizard-Mega-X is extremely dangerous to stall in this meta because its boosted power and multiple setup moves allow it to force its way past the very few stall counters it had in OU. In Metagamiate, its only true "counter" is defensive Altaria-Mega, and even that is a very shaky counter because Altaria is very pressured to find an opportunity to mega-evolve without getting wounded in the process. Dragon -ate is most common on Zard-X because it already has strong Fire STAB in Flare Blitz, and Dragon -ate allows it to have high power without resorting to using Outrage.
Counters:
Checks:
Landorus is very common on both offense and bulkier teams due to its powerful dual STAB, ability to check many threats, and pivoting ability. Landorus-T is basically always seen with Aerilate because it lacks other Flying STAB and Earthquake is already a very powerful Ground STAB. Although not particularly difficult to wall on stall, it is difficult to get rid of because it can easily pivot out with U-Turn.
Counters:
Checks:
Medicham-Mega has the highest effective attack stat in this meta. It has solid STAB priority in Fake Out for revenge killing, and it also has good coverage in the form of elemental punches. It has a lot of counters due to bad STAB typing and lower power coverage, but it is still a force to be reckoned with.
Counters:
(slowbro should watch out for thunderpunch, though it is somewhat uncommon)
Checks:
Metagross-Mega has insanely high attack with -ate and Tough Claws, as well as good speed and high bulk, making it very threatening for both offense and stall.
Counters:
Checks:
Weavile is a powerful and fast sweeper with two very strong STABs along with Swords Dance to boost. Although Refrigerate is more common due to having solid Dark STAB in Knock Off, Dark -Ate is also viable and deceptively hard to wall.
Counters:
Checks:
Aerodactyl-Mega gains two very viable STAB options to abuse with the Return + ate + Tough Claws combo. Double-Edge can also be run for a ridiculously powerful but suicidal attack. Aerilate is more common due to already having decent STAB in Stone Edge.
Counters:
Checks:
Extremely (lol) strong late game sweeper due to Swords Dance, Extreme Speed, and good coverage. It's basically impossible to counter all variants of Lucario in one pokemon, which makes it even more threatening. Both Fighting and Steel -ate have their merits but from what I've seen Fight -ate is more common. I'd advise to be extra careful when facing this as in the late game it is very easy for the opponent to have weakened your team to the point where Lucario cleans the game.
Counters/Checks:
(Counter/Check could go either way with this due to varied coverage and whether or not it is shiny.
We all know this one. Classic Aerilate Boomburst. Normally would be walled by Chansey, but Switcheroo makes switching in very risky, and U-Turn allows it to eventually wear down Chans with chip damage.
Honorable Mentions:
Counters:
Checks:
(be careful about Switcheroo. Nothing much you can do about that though.)
Honorable Mentions:
Altaria has a great typing both offensively and defensively. It provides a counter to threats like Zard-X/Y and Arcanine. It also provides a stall team with offensive presence and a solid win condition. Altaria has reliable recovery in Roost and can also support its team with Heal Bell. The main problem with Altaria is that it is pretty terrible before mega evolving, and it is hard to find good opportunities to mega evolve in such an offensive metagame (Protect can help with that).
Sableye is generally seen as the face of gen 6 stall because of the extreme value of denial that comes from its ability. Sableye itself counters less threats than it does in OU (it still counters some like Medicham), but the sheer value it brings to your team makes it worth considering. Sableye also has other support options like Knock Off, Will-o-Wisp, and Toxic. STAB Foul Play is an often unexpected move that can help to check physical threats.
Scizor provides a lot of good uses for a stall team, including defog support, countering threats, and providing an offensive win condition. Scizor can also help revenge kill using either Quick Attack (more power) or Feint (priority + going through protect).
Not a very common choice, but still worth considering. It can still counter many of what regular Slowbro counters, it just can't use Rocky Helmet to wear down opposing threats. Slowbro-Mega trades that for higher bulk and offensive stats, as well as resistance to Knock Off. It is also a decent win condition for stall teams.
Another uncommon choice. It doesn't provide much direct support for the team, instead it acts as a tank. Does need more team support than other megas though, so this would definitely not be my first choice.
Feel free to try other megas too, although these are probably the most viable ones.
Ah, the quintessential pink blob, blanket counter to 90% of special attackers. Provides team support in the form of Wish, Heal Bell, and Stealth Rocks. Not much to explain here.
A good answer to many physical and special attackers due to its unique typing. Ferro is also one of the best hazard setters in the game.
Landorus-T provides Stealth Rocks as well as a check / counter to many physical attackers. Its attacks are also really strong even when uninvested.
One of the best physical walls in the game. Skarmory can both set hazards or remove them (or both if you're brave enough). It can also run Return over Brave Bird so it doesn't break Sturdy from recoil. One move that people don't use much (and should) is Counter, as it can defeat many physical attackers that Skarmory would otherwise have no way of defeating, like Metagross-Mega.
In my opinion this is probably the best defensive pokemon in the meta. It counters almost every Extreme Speed user and wears them down with Rocky Helmet, and Regenerator allows it to do this again and again throughout the game.
Arcanine is a really good physical tank as it has the bulk and ability (intimidate) to take hits, and it can revenge kill with Extreme Speed. It also has Morning Sun for decent recovery and Will-o-Wisp to cripple physical attackers.
Sheer power is more of a threat than set up in this meta, so Quagsire is not as useful as it is in other metas. It is a good counter to Lucario though as it doesn't fear the Swords Dance.
Stall is pretty uncommon on the ladder, but it's not as bad as some people think it is, and it is definitely viable. If you're interested you should at least give it a try before the OMotM period ends. I promise it's not as boring as people make it to be (but it's definitely as evil as people make it to be >:D). We need more stall players in OMs anyways :P
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A post about stall and not a mention of mr mime?I've seen a few mentions of stall in several posts, but none really discussing it in depth, so I wrote up some of my thoughts about it from running it on the ladder. Think of this kind of like a guide to stall in metagamiate :P
Probably the most important part of stall is making sure you have a hard counter to all of the major threats, and at least a soft counter / check to less common threats. Here are some of the major offensive threats in the metagame:
(Pokemon with a * next to them can only check / counter one of the -ate versions of a threat and cannot counter both the shiny + non-shiny versions)
(Also, this is not a comprehensive list of all the threats, just the major ones. The counters listed aren't all the counters either, just the more viable ones and the ones that fit on stall teams)
-Ate boosted return from Azumarill hits extremely hard with Huge Power boost, and it has solid coverage for both shiny / non-shiny variants. The extra boost from -Ate also helps it get past some of its usual OU counters like Skarmory (water -ate) and Amoonguss
Counters:(*)(*)(*)
Checks:
Breloom is not very common in Metagamiate due to how it fares poorly against most offense teams, but it is extremely threatening to stall. Just to put it in perspective, boosted Facade has the same power as Boomburst, and Breloom even has a strong attack stat and Swords Dance to back that up. Combine that with Spore and you have a pokemon that is very difficult to counter.
Counters:(*)(*)(*)
Checks:
Charizard-Mega-X is extremely dangerous to stall in this meta because its boosted power and multiple setup moves allow it to force its way past the very few stall counters it had in OU. In Metagamiate, its only true "counter" is defensive Altaria-Mega, and even that is a very shaky counter because Altaria is very pressured to find an opportunity to mega-evolve without getting wounded in the process. Dragon -ate is most common on Zard-X because it already has strong Fire STAB in Flare Blitz, and Dragon -ate allows it to have high power without resorting to using Outrage.
Counters:
Checks:
Landorus is very common on both offense and bulkier teams due to its powerful dual STAB, ability to check many threats, and pivoting ability. Landorus-T is basically always seen with Aerilate because it lacks other Flying STAB and Earthquake is already a very powerful Ground STAB. Although not particularly difficult to wall on stall, it is difficult to get rid of because it can easily pivot out with U-Turn.
Counters:
Checks:
Medicham-Mega has the highest effective attack stat in this meta. It has solid STAB priority in Fake Out for revenge killing, and it also has good coverage in the form of elemental punches. It has a lot of counters due to bad STAB typing and lower power coverage, but it is still a force to be reckoned with.
Counters:
(slowbro should watch out for thunderpunch, though it is somewhat uncommon)
Checks:
Metagross-Mega has insanely high attack with -ate and Tough Claws, as well as good speed and high bulk, making it very threatening for both offense and stall.
Counters:
Checks:
Weavile is a powerful and fast sweeper with two very strong STABs along with Swords Dance to boost. Although Refrigerate is more common due to having solid Dark STAB in Knock Off, Dark -Ate is also viable and deceptively hard to wall.
Counters:(*)
Checks:(low kick 2HKO)
Aerodactyl-Mega gains two very viable STAB options to abuse with the Return + ate + Tough Claws combo. Double-Edge can also be run for a ridiculously powerful but suicidal attack. Aerilate is more common due to already having decent STAB in Stone Edge.
Counters:(*)(*)(*)
Checks:
Extremely (lol) strong late game sweeper due to Swords Dance, Extreme Speed, and good coverage. It's basically impossible to counter all variants of Lucario in one pokemon, which makes it even more threatening. Both Fighting and Steel -ate have their merits but from what I've seen Fight -ate is more common. I'd advise to be extra careful when facing this as in the late game it is very easy for the opponent to have weakened your team to the point where Lucario cleans the game.
Counters/Checks:
(Counter/Check could go either way with this due to varied coverage and whether or not it is shiny.
We all know this one. Classic Aerilate Boomburst. Normally would be walled by Chansey, but Switcheroo makes switching in very risky, and U-Turn allows it to eventually wear down Chans with chip damage.
Honorable Mentions:
Counters:
Checks:
(be careful about Switcheroo. Nothing much you can do about that though.)
Honorable Mentions:
Still pretty low power, more of a problem for offensive teams.
Countered by Skarm lol.
Apparently a big problem for offense teams, but stall handles it very easily.
Easily countered by Slowbro, although Will-o-Wisp is annoying.
Big pain in the ass, but mostly countered by Skarm / Slowbro / Ferro, and not that common.
Hoopa is always a big threat, but it's strange that I've never actually seen it yet. Can be revenge killed pretty easily though.
Altaria has a great typing both offensively and defensively. It provides a counter to threats like Zard-X/Y and Arcanine. It also provides a stall team with offensive presence and a solid win condition. Altaria has reliable recovery in Roost and can also support its team with Heal Bell. The main problem with Altaria is that it is pretty terrible before mega evolving, and it is hard to find good opportunities to mega evolve in such an offensive metagame (Protect can help with that).
Sableye is generally seen as the face of gen 6 stall because of the extreme value of denial that comes from its ability. Sableye itself counters less threats than it does in OU (it still counters some like Medicham), but the sheer value it brings to your team makes it worth considering. Sableye also has other support options like Knock Off, Will-o-Wisp, and Toxic. STAB Foul Play is an often unexpected move that can help to check physical threats.
Scizor provides a lot of good uses for a stall team, including defog support, countering threats, and providing an offensive win condition. Scizor can also help revenge kill using either Quick Attack (more power) or Feint (priority + going through protect).
Not a very common choice, but still worth considering. It can still counter many of what regular Slowbro counters, it just can't use Rocky Helmet to wear down opposing threats. Slowbro-Mega trades that for higher bulk and offensive stats, as well as resistance to Knock Off. It is also a decent win condition for stall teams.
Another uncommon choice. It doesn't provide much direct support for the team, instead it acts as a tank. Does need more team support than other megas though, so this would definitely not be my first choice.
Feel free to try other megas too, although these are probably the most viable ones.
Ah, the quintessential pink blob, blanket counter to 90% of special attackers. Provides team support in the form of Wish, Heal Bell, and Stealth Rocks. Not much to explain here.
A good answer to many physical and special attackers due to its unique typing. Ferro is also one of the best hazard setters in the game.
Landorus-T provides Stealth Rocks as well as a check / counter to many physical attackers. Its attacks are also really strong even when uninvested.
One of the best physical walls in the game. Skarmory can both set hazards or remove them (or both if you're brave enough). It can also run Return over Brave Bird so it doesn't break Sturdy from recoil. One move that people don't use much (and should) is Counter, as it can defeat many physical attackers that Skarmory would otherwise have no way of defeating, like Metagross-Mega.
In my opinion this is probably the best defensive pokemon in the meta. It counters almost every Extreme Speed user and wears them down with Rocky Helmet, and Regenerator allows it to do this again and again throughout the game.
Arcanine is a really good physical tank as it has the bulk and ability (intimidate) to take hits, and it can revenge kill with Extreme Speed. It also has Morning Sun for decent recovery and Will-o-Wisp to cripple physical attackers.
Sheer power is more of a threat than set up in this meta, so Quagsire is not as useful as it is in other metas. It is a good counter to Lucario though as it doesn't fear the Swords Dance.
Stall is pretty uncommon on the ladder, but it's not as bad as some people think it is, and it is definitely viable. If you're interested you should at least give it a try before the OMotM period ends. I promise it's not as boring as people make it to be (but it's definitely as evil as people make it to be >:D). We need more stall players in OMs anyways :P
Also heatran doesn't switch well on specs focus blast and chansey loses to taunt / roost.
I really like SpeDef diancie as my noivern switchin especially combined with sand.
Also none of these lucario counters can switch on mixed lucario.
Thought tbh I haven't tried altaria stall yet but it seems incredibly good on paper, finally having an answer to zardX and just having a dark resist to switch on daunt / gyara sounds pretty good.
I've also seen someone running doublade and think it's definetely a pokemon worth considering, being able to comfortably switch on mega metagross, mega medicham and mega aerodactyle to threaten them all with a ko. Requires support but can be good, also seems to have great defensive synergy with mega altaria.
Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
Added Diancie and Doublade (and mr mime)
Totally forgot about mixed Lucario. I think Arcanine might still be able to barely counter it if Arcanine is at full health. What else would serve as a better counter?
Just peeking in on the metagame :]
Anyway, I think Arcanine is a bit overhyped atm. This meta has given us a nice tool with fire typed extremespeed on arcanine. This, however, does not immediately turn it from a don't-use-in-ou mon to an S/A+ threat.
Arcanine still suffers from the same problems: predictability, being rather weak and no real role.
If there's an arcanine on the opposing side you'll know what it has: espeed, cc, and a combination of will-o, moonlight and wild charge. With its below average speed it relies on espeed to actually beat mons that outpace it, which is next to not being too strong (252+ Atk Arcanine Espeed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew (41 - 48.5%)), also very easy to predict and resist. Many top tier mons such as noivern, slowbro, gliscor and zygarde fear at most a wisp (with zygarde even carrying lum more often than not) and can fire off a free boomburst/whatever on the switch. Even coverage doesn't ko the mons it needs to (BANDED 252+ wild charge doesn't ko gyarados lmao).
I'm not denying that fire speed can come in clutch late-game against mons like lucario and weavile, but it's simply too weak to really break through teams, and not bulky enough to be a wall/good pivot. This, combined with a weakness to all entry hazards, means it's not one of the best pokemon in the meta at all in my opinion. I'm seeing more of an A- rank, instead of an A+ rank because there's been a succesful team with arcanine on it as a lucario check. (pick gyarados/slowbro/azu imo)
Anyway, I think Arcanine is a bit overhyped atm. This meta has given us a nice tool with fire typed extremespeed on arcanine. This, however, does not immediately turn it from a don't-use-in-ou mon to an S/A+ threat.
Arcanine still suffers from the same problems: predictability, being rather weak and no real role.
If there's an arcanine on the opposing side you'll know what it has: espeed, cc, and a combination of will-o, moonlight and wild charge. With its below average speed it relies on espeed to actually beat mons that outpace it, which is next to not being too strong (252+ Atk Arcanine Espeed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew (41 - 48.5%)), also very easy to predict and resist. Many top tier mons such as noivern, slowbro, gliscor and zygarde fear at most a wisp (with zygarde even carrying lum more often than not) and can fire off a free boomburst/whatever on the switch. Even coverage doesn't ko the mons it needs to (BANDED 252+ wild charge doesn't ko gyarados lmao).
I'm not denying that fire speed can come in clutch late-game against mons like lucario and weavile, but it's simply too weak to really break through teams, and not bulky enough to be a wall/good pivot. This, combined with a weakness to all entry hazards, means it's not one of the best pokemon in the meta at all in my opinion. I'm seeing more of an A- rank, instead of an A+ rank because there's been a succesful team with arcanine on it as a lucario check. (pick gyarados/slowbro/azu imo)
Depends really, sableye mega can take in on most of the time if it's not packing flash canon (which it isn't since it has espeed), and tentacruel can take it almost all the time.
Zapdos also is a really good switchin, and chansey can actually switch on most sets that don't have
I disagree, actually I stand on the complete opposite side of the fence, in my personal experience arcanine has been the most successful espeeder I used and I can't seem to really build a team without it.
Offensively arcanine is actually better than you make it out to be. Noivern can't even switch on espeed without being 2hkoed, gliscor is easily 2hkoed by double edge and slowbro is easily 2hkoed by wild charge and gyarados is definitely killed by wild charge unless it's a max defence gyarados that switched IN without rocks in which case it's easily 2hkoed.
But really I think arcanine's best set is the defensive set as it's able to check so much while providing intimidate support which is incredibely usefull for pivoting, wisp support and having reliable recovery.
It's a great check to most of the big threats of the meta including medicham, megagross, lucario, scizor, weavile, hoopa, scarf lando, band azumarill, breloom, itself, mega lop, pikachu, excadrill every fairy type, even ttar.
Sure his bulk might sometimes be lackluster but weather I build offence, balance or stall I very rarely have any reason not to put it on my team. And think it's the best mon of the metagame.
(Maybe with megaBro too, I agree with aja that iron defence megaBro is one o the best wincon in the meta against offensive teams)