Doubles OU Sample Teams

[Idyll]

Hi

Im new here so excuse the noob-like request. But i have been searching around for a while now trying to find a forum/ ppl who i can ask their help for designing a doubles team. I just would love someone to chat to throw ideas off and that way i can also learn how doubles teams work and so i can eventually design good teams by myself.

Im trying to make a doubles team that is more unique than most (hopefully). My aim is to use Moltres with its HP in a doubles team.

I had the idea of: Heatran, Moltres, Weavile, Lucario, Swampert and Blastoise (maybe follow me Jirachi?) though looking at it i feel it has no real synergy to work in doubles (i love syngery with things all linking together as part of a plan, rather than just atk and atk)


Im gratefull for anything as right now i feel i have nothing. Please help!!

Yo, this isn't really the place for this :( If you want help from someone with regards to your team, you should def go to the Doubles Room on Pokemon Showdown!, which is where most of the Doubles regular players hang. You can also go to the Battling 101 section of the site, which is where you can get personal tutoring in order to help you with improving your Doubles skill, but you'll have to wait until sign-ups @_@

I'm gonna make some comments on what you have now though n~n. While Moltres is a decent mon, there are just some things in the metagame that are better than it, like Heatran and MegaZard Y. Your team also lacks any synergy and in general uses a questionable combination of picks. You would be better off scrapping that team, in all honesty :( Building a decent Moltres squad isn't impossible, but there are better ways of going at it.

 

[SmithyRC]

turns out i want to make a vgc team and not a smogon team and the ppl on the smogon doubles room couldnt help me

Im useless and alone... i just want to make a team i can call mine :(

 

[Checkmater]

Why is Qsns' Kang team not a sample? I thought it was a simple case of "oh that thread that I forgot about, sorry about that let me do the thing I'm supposed to do" but I talked to KyleCole about it on PS (http://pastebin.com/S4SPQcgW snippets of that conversation) and frankly I'm not hearing a good reason it's not a sample yet.

Jirachi suspect possibility just goes to show that Jirachi is a dominant force in this meta, which should be represented in the samples. Just because we're about to suspect Jirachi doesn't mean a Jirachi sample can't exist.

The Kang team represents a full-out HO style which isn't being represented in the current list of samples... Maybe it's just me but when I tried getting into a few singles metas I just looked for the most blatantly HO teams I could make/find and used them to get a grip on how the meta worked.

And I shouldn't have to say this because everyone knows it but the team has had enormous success in tours, what with Qsns himself using it quite a bit in that seasonal he was successful in, along with it being cross-used (is that a word? idk) by several players including in SPL and Grand Slam.

 

[deoxys speed]

No one is wondering why you didn't include the Mega-Blastoise or Mega-Lopunny teams(no disrespect to those teams but they aren't the most optimal choices) so no you don't have to explain why you haven't added every team that's been posted. I would think it's obvious that only the teams that have performed well in tournaments and really show what's good in the meta game at the moment get added. So I think check isn't wrong to ask why a team that has done well in seasonals, open, and spl made by the amazing qsns I might add didn't get added. Also I don't know why you seem so upset about having to write something being a moderator of this forum and in charge of this thread.

 

[Idyll]

Those are my personal experiences with the team. As for why I really haven't included any HO teams in the samples list, it's because HO teams are not consistent.

Looking at SPL the two players who consistently used HO teams were Deoxys-Speed and Checkmater, both of whom finished with negative records. The one week in which I used an HO team I was met with just about the worst matchup I could've hoped for and lost. HO teams don't win games. HO is super easy to use it's true, but against a good player they will consistently under perform. There's a reason my rain team won 18 tournament games in a row but lost the one time it was in SPL.

When I go to include a sample team, I look to see that the team can win games. Then I look at my experience with the team and then carefully look at the team post to see if the team has any massive flaws. This team failed on all accounts.

This team doesn't look to have any insane gaps; you can just point to Kang/Talon/Deo for any threat and say "Look that mon gets OHKOd by one of mine". In practice however I was not impressed by the performance of the team.

Wouldn't it make sense to at least add one HO team though? As much as you say that it's inconsistent, it's still a very much present playstyle in the DOU metagame. The sample teams thread isn't simply just for having good teams teams that win, it's also for helping new players get into the metagame by showcasing numerous teams that represent the many playstyles and archetypes we have available, one of them being HO of course.

FTR I'm not really pushing for the qsns team in particular. I just didn't particularly feel good about not including a spot for HO specifically.

 

[Checkmater]

I really shouldn't respond to this part, but I care too much about healthy meta discussion on the forums to just let this bullshit slide:

So I'm left with either ignoring checkmater (incredibly tempting) or going through every team equally.

^I'm upset because Check already asked me on showdown why I didn't include the team as a sample to which I replied with my reasons which I felt were more than fair, but despite that he felt the need to "call me out" and post about it instead of realizing that just because I don't share every tidbit of my thoughts with him that I must be in the wrong.

Alright buddy, let's get some things straight:

You gave an incomplete answer to me on PS. It's that simple. I wanted an explanation, didn't get one, moved the discussion to the forums. Why are you actively trying to discourage forum discussion? My post is civil, and asking for you to elaborate on an opinion you gave. It's not some cocky post about how I'm so right or how KyleCole is so wrong; it respectfully states reasons I think Qsns' team should be a sample and asks you to elaborate on your opinion. If this sets you off and makes you both uncivil and angry then I don't know what to tell you. The forums aren't a place for personal attack and condescending language. You can't just tell me "it's not a good team" then not elaborate when I ask you to, and then get pissed/salty for whatever reason when I move the discussion to forums when you log off. If posting on this thread and explaining yourself feels like a chore then maybe you should turn this thread over to someone else.

-----------------------------

Your analysis of the team hasn't provided anything to the table: you bring replays in without discussing aspects the replays show, you don't highlight particular weaknesses, you don't state what would be a "good" HO team in your eyes and why Qsns' team doesn't meet the criteria other than to be bitter about your own rain team. At the same time you neglect several points already made, such as its rampant usage among multiple different players, many of whom were completely new to the tier (practically the target group of sample teams) or its success in tours, which I bet was probably a hell of a lot better than 18 wins in early rounds of seasonals.

The argument you bring to the table is little more than anecdotal and doesn't establish real reasons the team shouldn't be included. Personal distaste of a team is an insane obstacle to put on entry.

While I'm at it the OP still has Mega Salamence in all the importable tags from the April Fools thing

 

[kaori]

ok anyway friends let's talk about a team Stratos and Kylecole told me to post

The Tale of a Boy

Gardevoir (M) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psychic
- Encore
- Protect

Amoonguss @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 220 HP / 212 Def / 76 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Giga Drain
- Spore
- Rage Powder
- Protect

Gyarados @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Dance
- Protect

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Thunder Wave
- Protect

Landorus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 164 Atk / 92 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
- U-Turn

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Protect

So this is the team I've used for a couple rounds of seasonals and people seem to have liked it so here you go n_n You can play around with it if you want, for instance Stratos suggested e-belt Lando as opposed to AV. Spreads are pretty basic but that's probably the goal for a sample team? Idk I play VGC

have at it folks

 

[Taliheim]

First person to get angry loses

The big thing kale brought up is consistency:

Looking at SPL the two players who consistently used HO teams were Deoxys-Speed and Checkmater, both of whom finished with negative records. The one week in which I used an HO team I was met with just about the worst matchup I could've hoped for and lost. HO teams don't win games. HO is super easy to use it's true, but against a good player they will consistently under perform. There's a reason my rain team won 18 tournament games in a row but lost the one time it was in SPL.

He also blatantly states that once an HO team provides consistent results in high level tours, he'd be more than happy to post it. The entire reason he had his reason team up there wasnt just shameless team promotion, it had gone 18-0 at the time, which fit the bill for consistency.

Uh, he did discuss the replays? Game 1 he states it only won due to hax, game 2 it got an insane hax lead early game but was unable to capitalize on it. Though I will say having only two replays isn't near enough of a big enough sample size to base an opinion completely off of.

The team doesn't have any weaknesses on paper, which is why none are mentioned. It pretty much comes down to the players in HO imo, which is why it wrecks worse players but falls short against good players. You basically need a skill advantage to get consistent wins, at least for the current HO builds.

Bad teams can be popular. And if you can prove the high success in tours, by all means do so.

 

[Idyll]

The qsns team did have some consistent results in high level tours though since, according to deo-s, the team "has done well in seasonals, open, and spl." The rain team was a different case entirely which I don't really want to delve upon. Also, using those two replays is p much cherrypicking lol like, you beat it (or should've) wow congratulations? Looking at individual results isn't really the way to go about this as the quality of team isn't the only factor to a game, there's also the plays and matchup on a given game. The best way we can judge a team is through its on-paper matchups against the meta as a whole and consistent results; if we are discounting teams because it lol lost, we might as well take down Team Glennn, Ponymon Sun, checkroom (it lost in a Seasonal Finals even when it had favorable hax!!!), and the Diancie team which I find funny that it's there. Any team can inevitably lose once or twice, but that shouldn't necessarily disqualify it for consideration on this thread.

The team doesn't have any weaknesses on paper, which is why none are mentioned. It pretty much comes down to the players in HO imo, which is why it wrecks worse players but falls short against good players. You basically need a skill advantage to get consistent wins, at least for the current HO builds.

Bro? You need a skill advantage to win with any team. The skill of a user = / = quality of a team. For example, I can use Team Glennn and win, while coolnerd351 can use it and lose; that doesn't necessarily mean Team Glennn is a good team or a bad team. But, going back to what I said earlier, we all know that Team Glennn is a good team on paper and on consistent results...

I reiterate: I don't really care whether qsns HO gets added or not. I just like posting : D

Seriously though, you guys should get a committee on this tbh. If anything, I'm more likely to take the agreed opinion of 5-7 high-level players than the sole opinion of user: KyleCole in a matter like this (nothing against you but you're the mod lol).

 

[KyleCole]

SO when Volcanion is released this weekend I'm going to scrap the sample teams currently posted. A couple are out of date anyways but with a new meta we need new teams. I've made a list of things you need to make sure your sample team post has if you want it to get posted. This goes beyond the standard importable and explanation which of course are still required:

1. NO IMMEDIATELY IDENTIFIABLE WEAKNESSES TO ONE THREAT. This is a pretty easy one. If I can eyeball your team and notice that you "just lose" to something popular (tier 1-3 on the VR is a good list to check) then I'm not adding it.
2. REPLAYS. New teams in a new meta need some evidence to support them and unfortunately we haven't seen any tournaments with Volcanion yet so you better back up your team with some hard evidence
3. DON'T GET OWNED BY ME. I will NOT put a team up when I have 100% evidence in front of me that the team isn't good. Following this logic, don't let me see you get owned using your team. I'm not so incapable of watching a game that I can't tell the difference between a flaw in a team and a misplay but it sure won't help your case if I see you get 6-0'd. This goes both ways though, if you beat me with your team or I see you beat someone else with your team I will be impressed and more likely to post it.

If none of you post teams that meet this criteria I will have to post one of mine which I'm sure people won't like because for some reason that is bad. If I have to do this I will of course give you guys replays and such because it's fair. If you would be outraged to see me post one of my own good teams in a thread (gasp) then take the initiative and post a good team of your own.

 

[Arcticblast]

I think you're being a little too hard on qsns's team dude, like maybe just a smidge, but if team glennn isn't there heads will roll

KyleCole edit: I'll keep glenn

 

[Stratos]

heres a good volcanion team if u want one

Hide

Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 208 Atk / 48 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Protect

Volcanion @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Heat Wave
- Protect
- Sludge Bomb

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tailwind
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
Modest Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Shadow Ball
- Wide Guard
- King's Shield

Amoonguss @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Giga Drain
- Protect
- Spore
- Rage Powder

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Hyperspace Hole
- Hyperspace Fury
- Focus Blast

not gonna write a description because i know it wont get used because 'i just saw majorbowman own that team dude'

also my sun team has a really good volcanion matchup so im not sure why volcanion dropping equals remove it??

 

[Arcticblast]

also my sun team has a really good volcanion matchup so im not sure why volcanion dropping equals remove it??

Venu sun isn't what it used to be regardless of Volcanion tbh

 

[Big_Danny_Mason]

The sun team with earth power hydreigon over kyub is really good in the meta right now imo

 

[Stratos]

Venu sun isn't what it used to be regardless of Volcanion tbh

while true, it still won me 2 of the 3 seasonal matches i used it in this spring and probably woulda won the third without a double crit flinch rock slide

 

[Checkmater]

fwiw venu sun is still some hot stuff... like just slapping a general statement of something not in the meta doesn't count as an explanation of some flaw/weakness/inconsistency of the team. Particularly with the inclusion of Volcanion it's easy to see how Sun teams benefit a lot.

 

[Checkmater]

[13:04] Checkmater: do you actually
[13:04] Checkmater: still run bulk kang
[13:04] Checkmater: and 188 hp heatran
[13:04] Checkmater: on glenn
[13:06] +Memoric: uh
[13:06] +Memoric: the tran spread
[13:06] +Memoric: is fake
[13:06] Checkmater: how about kang?
[13:06] +Memoric: kang still has some bulk
[13:06] +Memoric: -

update plz :)

 

[KyleCole]

Sick thanks. I guess I'll change them to

EVs:¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Idyll]

the team's in the rmt archive @_@