Metagame np: NU Stage 12 - Nevergreen

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boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Is it okay if we use this thread (at this point) to discuss how the NU meta will change/revert/adapt now that Sceptile has been banned from NU? I'd like to see what people think the "new" meta will be like and where the central focuses of the Meta will be. For a start, Gurdurr was pooled up to the RU tier (goodbye old friend. We will miss having you in NU). If one of any of the moderators or co-leaders would prefer not seeing a discussion for thoughts and ideas about the new meta in the thread, let it be known and do whatever seems fit.
(I won't post anything regarding my question until there's some form of confirmation about it. My apologies if I'm out of line here or something.)
In response to the bolded part, yes. Please use this thread to discuss what Pokemon have benefitted from the loss of Sceptile, Sawk, and Gurdurr, metagame trends, etc.
 

Sweet Jesus

Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
Ok so one thing that benefits immensly from less strong figthing types and one less powerful mon outspeeding it is lopunny and I'm totally not joking. I've been using this set to pretty amazing success and it's kind of dumb all the stupid wins it provides you.



Lopunny @ Leftovers
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Encore/Magic Coat
- Cosmic Power
- Substitute
- Baton Pass

Lopunny has the usually usless combination of speed, decent bulk and shitty offense. However, this set uses those traits to perfection and abuses the fact so few people run phazers in this meta. After a single cosmic power which you usualy pull off before your opponent's attack, lopunny already becomes stupidly bulky being 2hko'd by very few non choiced and non fighting moves. After a couple cps, you can pass them to an ally which basically becomes invincible to any standard ways of killing (attacking). Substitute lets you protect yourself from status and the rare dragon tail and can also be passed down to an ally. Encore gives you additional opportunities to set up, stops your opponent from setting up himself and is always useful to play around opponents in general especially when used in combination with substitute. Magic coat on the other hand can help protect you from roar, whirlwind and taunt, 3 moves that will fuck up your enemy as much as they fuck up this set.

Here's all the tips and tricks I got from using this set quite a lot.

-Magic Bounce, suction cups, shell armor and battle armor are great abilities for whatever is recieving your boosts.
-Whatever recieves your boost should either have a combination of 1 boosting move + 1 recovery move + 2 attacking moves or 1 attacking move (preferably knock off for shitting on lefties, because nothing is immune and because 32pp), taunt, toxic or infestation, a recovery move and decent speed (high pp moves are very useful for such mons and outspeeding common heal bell users is essential if you run toxic).
-Things that will recieve your boosts are often prone to the 4 move slot syndrome. Charge beam, stored power, weakness policy and arguably metronome (the item) can be used to overcome that problem (being weak to dark is a plus when you hold weakness policy because your opponent can't knock it off without activating it).
-Don't be shy to use rest on whatever recieves your boosts, if it's bulky enough it'll resist anything and really apreciate healing status too (recycle chesto can be used in combination if you're not prone to 4 mss too badly). Plus, if you get to a point where you have to pp stall an enemy, rest becomes the best move (after spite I guess lol).
-Make sure nothing is fully immune to your recievers (aka don't run stored power alone)
-Have something for circle throw (a ghost type reciever) or throh and poliwrath might punish you hard
-If you use this set, it's probably gonna be the core of your strategy so having healing wish can help you use it again if your first attempt fails (although lopunny becomes so bulky it doesn't even need it that often for a second try)
-Don't fool around for too long. If you've boosted enough, your opponent will just be waiting for a crit to end your sweep, the longer you fool around, the more likely he is to get one. This also means an attack boosting reciever should have a good 2 move coverage so nothing threatening an ohko'ing crit stays alive for too long.
-Your reciever being immune to freeze is nice although it souldn't be your priority
-Sub can be a great asset to prevent crits, status and leech seed
-Watch out for taunt and encore(both for lopunny and your reciever)
-Have multiple strategies on multiple recievers
-Recievers should not have a 4x weakness preferably
-If your reciever is boosting it's attack, don't forget to equip it for quag
-Memento and sleep are good ways of giving lopunny it's first boosts



Now, although this set is gimmicky, I believe it should be lopunny's main set because it's not as if lopunny was doing much with another set bar passing shitty items. I'll let you guys get familiar with it and will probably nom it to go higher in rankings eventually because it works rather well.

Ps: Loppuny is PU, so this set also works in the lower tier


Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Wrap
- Taunt
- Synthesis


Dusknoir @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Power-Up Punch
- Taunt
- Rest

Dusknoir is practically as good as it gets. With more than uninvested base 50's, he taunts a plethora of annoying things, his only 2 weaknesses usualy don't hit that hard and if they do, they're stabbed meaning dusknoir is hitting them for super effective (except for skunk which usualy doesn't run taunt anyway these days). Anything it does not kill with it's shitty stab moves, it taunts to stop recovering or pp stalls with pressure, rest and high pp moves). It can snipe with a hopefully boosted shadow sneak before getting encored although liepard does resist it, it can't switch in on p-up punch or taunt and encoring rest will just quickly run out of pp). Finaly, it's immune to circle throw and taunts whirlwind and roar leaving dragon tail as only effective phazing move.

Samurott @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Razor Shell
- Dragon Tail
- Swords Dance
- Rest
 
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With Sawk and Gurdurr leaving and Archeops, Tauros, Lilligant, and Kangaskan all getting more popular due to the Sceptile ban, there has been a really cool mon that has flown under the radar more then it really deserves. Today I'd like to talk about that mon.



So miltank has actually been really good for awhile, but in this meta it's really shining. With great speed for a wall, amazing move pool, and the ability to wall threats such as Kangaskan, Tauros, Archeops, Lilligant, and Shiftry. It can even come in on the likes of Barbarcle and chew a +2 razor shell and fire off a twave to cripple it if they don't sub. Miltank really has become a staple for me on any balanced or defensive team just because of how much it can blanket check along with the support it offers from twave and rocks.

Miltank @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave
- Milk Drink


252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 147-174 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 146-173 (37 - 43.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- 40.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 103-121 (26.1 - 30.7%) -- 4.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 29.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 213-252 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


one of the other seeling points is that it's also extremely fast. With only 20 speed investment you're able to out speed Samurott and AV Magmortar which keeps you from being revenge killed from these powerful wall breakers if they're weakened. It also means that if you have to you can fire off a twave before taking the hit to cripple them. Over all Miltank has found itself to be an amazing glue mon in this meta because it fills so many roles all in the same set and really can take pressure off other parts of your team. I highly recommend trying this mon if you haven't already!
 
sj's lopunny post reminded me of smth that i've been meaning to discuss in this thread, and that is the rise in the number of BP shenanigans that i've been seeing lately. i'm not entirely sure what's been contributing to this spike in BP strats, but I know that it's been getting some high level tournament recognition (see: kiyo vs teddeh in SPL) as well as a ton of ladder usage (see: the combusken pass team that's been going around lately). Obviously, combusken's the best abuser of Baton Pass due to the fact that its a strong cleaner that can also provide tremendous team support, but it's been in back in the tier for a while so it's interesting to see that it's support passing set is only really gaining recognition now.

this is just something I noticed and I wanted to get your guys' opinion on it, cause i'm still not sure if it's a growing metagame trend or just smth i'm blowing out of proportion atm.
 

quziel

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Honestly, I feel like a lot of the reason behind the rise in BP strats is due to the fact that we just have two really solid passers in the tier, thanks to busken and mush. Mush loves to throw a BP boost onto either swellow, where it can clean like crazy, or onto something like Poliwrath, which really appreciates the boost in power and bulk, while covering Mush's weaknesses. It doesn't hurt that Mush will often run BP to avoid skunk's pursuit.

That said, one of the main reasons we're seeing a rise in BP strats is, at least in my opinion, due to the sheer strength of Swellow, and how amazingly it benefits from special attack boosts, especially with a few teams abusing its strength posted somewhat recently.
 

Punchshroom

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Manectric should certainly shake things up, most likely operating as a 'less bullshit' version of Heliolisk. Overheat lets Manectric completely toast Grass-types (including Abomasnow) and Steelix, allowing it to afford Hidden Power Grass which OHKOes Quagsire + offensive Rhydon and do some damage to Lanturn. Hell, Hidden Power Water may be used to catch Camerupt while still hitting most Ground-types. Already this seems like an amazing addition to the tier thanks to its perfectly neutral coverage combined with the fast and strong Volt Switch. Switcheroo even allows Choice sets to be consistent as well.

I predict that Manectric's strong presence in the tier combined with its Speed bracket would reduce the viability of Choiced Rotoms, as well as hinder Charizard slightly while cementing Pyroar as the best offensive Fire-type, and one of the best offensive mons in general, in the tier. I can foresee Manectric + Spikes to be a popular playstyle, probably even moreso than Kanga + Spikes. Most airborne targets detest eating Volt Switches, whereas Spikes damage would allow Manectric to obliterate Steelix (and Vileplume) with LO Overheat even after Leftovers recovery.
 
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Manectric @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
  • Thunderbolt
  • Overheat / Flamethrower
  • Hidden Power Grass
  • Volt Switch
This is the set that will most likely be the most common one for Manectric, I think it will be a very good balance breaker as it can do one thing that no other fast electric type in the tier could do, which is hit almost all Electric immune mons super effectively while having enough speed to not be deadweight against offense (unlike E-Vire)

Here are some calcs:

Overheat:

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Overheat vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 380-447 (107.9 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 364-429 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 346-408 (97.7 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO


HP Grass:

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Claydol: 127-151 (48.4 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 177-211 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 148-177 (36.6 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 416-494 (105.5 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 250-296 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Speed:
Now let's talk about its speed tier, while it could have been better (outpsed by Pyroar, Archeops, Tauros..) it's still pretty good, speed tying with Mismagius and Scyther and outspeeding common offensive threats such as Charizard, Haunter, Jynx and Xatu and OHKO'ing them.

Other nice options:

. Signal Beam can be used to break SpDef Malamar. (also has the bonus of hitting bulky Psychic types harder than any other move)

. Switcheroo with Specs or Scarf seem like cool options but I think Manectric prefers the ability to switch moves and there are probably better scarfers around.

. Sleep Talk could work as a nice Vivillon check/lure! With a set of Tbolt, Overheat, Volt and Sleep Talk it could come in on Vivilloon's Sleep Powder and click Sleep Talk and OHKO it with any move the RNG pulls out.

. Hidden Power Water can be used to hit Camerupt while still retaining the X4 SE damage on Rhydon.

Speaking of Camerupt, now I could be wrong but I think it will get more popular as there is more of a reason to put it in your team as it acts as a SR setter and a counter to Manectric, Rotom and most Special Zard sets in one slot.
 
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Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life

Carracosta @ Life Orb
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 28 Atk / 228 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shell Smash
- Stone Edge
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

This thing got a LOT better with the Sceptile ban, as it lost a check to it that could outspeed it after +2 and kill it. Now Carracosta still has some problems, mainly the competition from Barbaracle and Omastar as a Shell Smasher, but the mixed Shell Smash set is still an amazing wallbreaker and sweeper that can surprise a lot of the typical physical Carracosta checks, like Weezing and Gourgeist, with it's special moves. Stone Edge is still pretty strong even with lesser Attack investment, being able to OHKO neutral targets like Samurott after a boost and having a good chance to OHKO defensive Lanturn after Stealth Rock. I feel like Carracosta is really underrated in this meta as it has really nice set-up opportunities on mons like Tauros (Solid Rock lets it take Earthquake better, and it completely walls Work Up variants that don't run EQ), and while it can't outspeed Swellow and Floatzel, it still outspeeds the base 110 Speed tier after a boost, which is really nice. Carracosta's defensive set isn't bad either, and while it does receive competition from Steeli as a defensive Stealth Rocker, it can check Fire-types (Not very well, but it at least checks non-HP Grass Pyroar well) and has stuff like Scald, which is always broken nice. Overall, Carracosta may receive competition in some of it's roles, but it's unique advantages make it a good and underrated choice in this meta imo.
 

So I thought I would post my thoughts on Manectric since me and a couple friends were testing it out, seeing what it does and how well it suits against current NU. I think I can safely say that Manectric isn't very good at all, not only is it incredibly frail which makes it suffer from priority, it's just not that strong in general. Punch said it all in one line, it's a bad version of heliolisk, it's weaker, slower and has a worse ability and weak coverage. 105 speed just isn't that good since most teams runs at least one thing to outspeed that and chances are, they can ohko it. At the moment, I wouldn't use it over zebstrika or even raichu simply because they act as better revenge killers due to higher speed, even with the large special attack difference, it still fails to ohko things which you would expect it to, making it a reliability in games. It does have some cool niches like switcheroo which is cool however. It deserves a ranking of B-/B in my opinion for now.

Stuff that is cool right now ;
Hitmonchan - This thing can be devastating, and strong priority is one of the most useful things in the tier right now being able to hit archeops, tauros, and other fast troublesome mons.
Abomasnow - Again, people still don't bring ice type counters, and when they do, they take a wood hammer to the face.
Camerupt - Waters got me using this and I really like it, nice lead being able to get rocks up and burn/toxic something, soft fire check as well as grass and just overall really decent. It also counters manectric.
 
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Deej Dy

Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
One thing I think has been overlooked with Manectric is its ability in lightning rod which basically allows it to be a volt switch-absorber that punishes people for even considering clicking an electric move.
I think that this is a huge plus for (hyper) offensive teams which use faster SRs like lead Archeops and can't afford to run a bulky VS absorbing rocker like Rhydon/Steelix. Although I'll probably use static for the hax 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
Overall I think Manectric is definitely going to push the meta to be more offensive.
 

erisia

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Manectric seems like, for all intents and purposes, a stronger, faster version of Electivire that lacks Earthquake. I think it'll generally be a lot better as Overheat just roasts Steelix and most Grass-types, while most other Ground-types are vulnerable to the Hidden Power of your choice. While AV Magmortar and Hariyama beat it more easily, it can just Volt Switch out of them. Obviously judging a Pokémon without having seen it in action is flawed but I think the only other main difference is that Manectric can run viable Choice sets with Switcheroo and better Speed/Power, and maybe even a Lightningrod boost. I think it'll probably settle around B+/B due to its complete lack of bulk / defensive merit outside of its immunity and its improved offensive presence. It'll absolutely be a staple of VoltTurn teams, of course.

Electivire is going to have to mix up its sets even more now to avoid being outclassed by this thing. It absolutely needs to take advantage of its Attack stat to have a niche, and an uninvested Earthquake is only going to go so far to convince you to use it instead of Manectric (I guess the improved matchup against Lanturn is handy?). Imo we're probably going to see more physically based sets now, using Wild Charge or even Focus Punch to nail SpD tanks like Hariyama and Magmortar as they switch in, then using a mix of Flamethrower / Hidden Power / Earthquake / Volt Switch to fill in the gaps. I'm curious as to whether people will find a niche for this guy or whether it'll just drop down to PU (oh how the mighty have fallen). Who knows; Manectric + Electivire Electric-spam could become the next best thing.
 
I wanted to wait until I got my hands on it, but I think I'll just post now to address Adaire post.

So obviously I haven't got my hands on Manectric yet so this is going to be limited to my first impressions, but I feel Manectric will have a large impact on our meta. You compared it to Helioisk quoting punchshroom, but one thing I want to point out is that "a worse Helioisk" means we don't have to ban it, not that the mon isn't good. Base 105 Sp.A is very threatening for a lot of mons, and bar lanturn all the specially bulky things like AV Magmortar that would normally switch into it just get pivoted on, and it has the coverage to break common ground types like Rhydon or Steelix so stopping its momentum takes either something Lanturn or bold predictions.
There is no way this thing is worse then Zebstrika or Raichu. Unlike Zeb it actually has the power to leave dents in teams with a huge jump in 25 Sp.A, and it has the coverage that Raichu lacks as it has the strong fire coverage in Overheat to hit Steelix. This thing is the perfect mix of the two ones in one mon.

As for your bottom posts about how no one is preparing for Fighting or Ice types, I don't think that's exactly a meta trend. Mesprit is currently holding the most usage in NU, and things like Rotom, Xatu, Mega Audino, Garbodor, Musharna, and even Scyther are still both extremely good and commonly seen. Fighting resists are still a staple on teams so I struggle to agree with you on that. As for ice resists, people still go out of their way to add in ice resists but I agree with Aboma messes with a lot of them so meh.


To keep this from being a complete call out post I want to talk about one meta trend I've been noticing. There isn't anything that stands out as "this is the best thing NU has to offer". We've always had metas in the past where we could point out where the meta kinda circles. Things like Sawk, Typhlosion, Sneasel, and Mega Camerupt have been past things where you could look at it and see their effects on the meta and see how the tier circles them. But right now we don't have anything that stands out as king of the meta it's all jsut kinda up in the air. "this is good, that's good, oh yeah that mon is good too." there is no best mon in the tier which I think is extremely interesting and it makes for a really open and fun to play meta.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I mean I would argue that Tauros is pretty meta defining at the moment (and maybe Normal Spam in general), but not to the degree of stuff like Sawk and Typhlosion obviously.

Kinda bummed that Dugtrio and Aggron didn't drop, but was kinda surprised that Manectric did. I feel it will be a solid special pivot/sweeper thanks to its great Sp.Atk and pretty good Spe. Fire coverage is also very nice for Grass types like Vilepume and Steel types like Steelix. I just get agitated when people compare it to Heliolisk though and calling it out to be "centralizing" and "broken". First and foremost, it's move pool isn't as vast as Helio's missing out on key moves such as Focus Blast, Surf, STAB Hyper Voice, U-Turn, Grass Knot, etc.. Heliolisk also pretty much checked many water types with Dry Skin and could be more diverse within its sets. All this combined let it be such a overbearing offensive presence in the tier , something I can't say Manectric could be based off my initial observation.
 
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All of my thoughts of Manectric have been explained by other's, so I won't add something that contributes nothing to this thread, but I can really see an offensive core of Manectric + Abomasnow being a very juicy core indeed. Abomasnow beats a majority of switch ins to Manectric, such as Lanturn and Sliggoo (The two most significant ones), and Manectric being able to toast most steel types with Overheat, allowing Abomasnow to spam it's absurdly strong Blizzard. This core also puts a ton of pressure on Hariyama as it's easy af to wear down, but if you're Wood Hammer Snow then you 2HKO it anyway (I prefer Giga Drain though).
 

Manectric @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
  • Thunderbolt
  • Overheat / Flamethrower
  • Hidden Power Grass
  • Volt Switch
This is the set that will most likely be the most common one for Manectric, I think it will be a very good balance breaker as it can do one thing that no other fast electric type in the tier could do, which is hit almost all Electric immune mons super effectively while having enough speed to not be deadweight against offense (unlike E-Vire)

Here are some calcs:

Overheat:

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Overheat vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 380-447 (107.9 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 364-429 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 346-408 (97.7 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO


HP Grass:

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Claydol: 127-151 (48.4 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 177-211 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 148-177 (36.6 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 416-494 (105.5 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 250-296 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Speed:
Now let's talk about its speed tier, while it could have been better (outpsed by Pyroar, Archeops, Tauros..) it's still pretty good, speed tying with Mismagius and Scyther and outspeeding common offensive threats such as Charizard, Haunter, Jynx and Xatu and OHKO'ing them.

Other nice options:

. Signal Beam can be used to break SpDef Malamar. (also has the bonus of hitting bulky Psychic types harder than any other move)

. Switcheroo with Specs or Scarf seem like cool options but I think Manectric prefers the ability to switch moves and there are probably better scarfers around.

. Sleep Talk could work as a nice Vivillon check/lure! With a set of Tbolt, Overheat, Volt and Sleep Talk it could come in on Vivilloon's Sleep Powder and click Sleep Talk and OHKO it with any move the RNG pulls out.

. Hidden Power Water can be used to hit Camerupt while still retaining the X4 SE damage on Rhydon.

Speaking of Camerupt, now I could be wrong but I think it will get more popular as there is more of a reason to put it in your team as it acts as a SR setter and a counter to Manectric, Rotom and most Special Zard sets in one slot.
This is all fine and dandy but I just have a nitpick: I don't feel like expert belt is ever going to be on the best set of a pokemon unless it is a very very very underused set considering that the point of ebelt is to bluff a choice set. which is presumably the most popular set if you're trying to bluff it.
Personally I feel like a choice set is going to be its best set considering how switcheroo cripples switchins like piloswine so much. Also I feel like hp water is really close in viability to hp grass since you hit so many of the same things but hp water hits things like camerupt and cheeky archeopses(archei?) at the cost of lanturn which is a big cost but still, also hp ice isn't too far behind considering that it destroys sliggoo, which is possibly this thing's best counter. Also something like magnet rise could be really really gimmicky but it is super cool vs ground types. If a life orb set is popular I feel like it will consider running magnet rise even though manectric is pressed for moveslots. Again magnet rise is beyond gimmicky but it might end up being ok. I personally feel like manectric could be around a rank but only time will tell. Also yama is pretty good vs manectric
252 SpA Choice Specs Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 136-162 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 90.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric: 306-360 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In other news, day 343 (damn that's crazy) still miss you increasingly more day by day seismitoad, even if manectric runs hp grass I would still love to have you back to recreate the hundreds of teams I put you on, aka literally every one of my nu teams. :pirate: Neverforget

Edit: To elaborate a bit more of why I think choice sets are better, I feel like the potential is nearly endless considering that if you predict well choice items have basically no downside unlike something like life orb which almost always has a downside. Like I know that life orb is better in a lot of cases but especially on a mon where you are going to be clicking volt switch like 60% of the time it's good.
 
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cyanize

Mantra Good I Casted So Many Spells U Idiot
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Personally I feel like a choice set is going to be its best set considering how switcheroo cripples switchins like piloswine so much. .
I disagree. Manectric doesn't quite have the slot freedom to run Switcheroo if it's going to be choiced. which literally ruins the whole point of it being choiced, since specs doesn't nab it any essential KOs (252 SpA Choice Specs Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 144 SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 120-142 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock as opposed to 252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 144 SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 104-125 (26.5 - 31.9%) -- 54.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock for example.) If you were to put a Specs on Mane and run Switcheroo, what can you reasonably get rid of? Do you get rid of Tbolt, your main STAB? Volt Switch, your momentum move and one of the main reasons for your existence? Do you get rid of OVerheat/Flamethrower, your main niche over other Electrics? Or do you leave out Hp Grass/Water, your only method of hitting most resists? Obviously, none of these is a very appeasing choice.
Another problem is the actual usefulness of Switcheroo. The more common switchinns to Manectric are going to be Lanturn, Magmortar, Camerupt, Audino, Piloswine and Manectric itself (note: this is not taking into account how effective these checks are, it is solely based off of what people will do from my experience. This also doesnt account for the moveslot you lose by running Switcheroo in the first place.) Of those, 4 don't actually mind having Specs, 3 commonly run AV causing you to permanently lose a moveslot, and 1 cannot be tricked. So at the end of the day, only two of Manectric's checks actually detriment from receiving Specs, and one can function by clicking one move at a time; it usually does anyways. That's a considerable lack of reward for so much lost utility.


tl;dr Specs doesn't get any kills, makes you lose a move, and doesn't even really affect most checks if they are given it.

e: spelling
 
Manectric seems like, for all intents and purposes, a stronger, faster version of Electivire that lacks Earthquake. I think it'll generally be a lot better as Overheat just roasts Steelix and most Grass-types, while most other Ground-types are vulnerable to the Hidden Power of your choice. While AV Magmortar and Hariyama beat it more easily, it can just Volt Switch out of them. Obviously judging a Pokémon without having seen it in action is flawed but I think the only other main difference is that Manectric can run viable Choice sets with Switcheroo and better Speed/Power, and maybe even a Lightningrod boost. I think it'll probably settle around B+/B due to its complete lack of bulk / defensive merit outside of its immunity and its improved offensive presence. It'll absolutely be a staple of VoltTurn teams, of course.

Electivire is going to have to mix up its sets even more now to avoid being outclassed by this thing. It absolutely needs to take advantage of its Attack stat to have a niche, and an uninvested Earthquake is only going to go so far to convince you to use it instead of Manectric (I guess the improved matchup against Lanturn is handy?). Imo we're probably going to see more physically based sets now, using Wild Charge or even Focus Punch to nail SpD tanks like Hariyama and Magmortar as they switch in, then using a mix of Flamethrower / Hidden Power / Earthquake / Volt Switch to fill in the gaps. I'm curious as to whether people will find a niche for this guy or whether it'll just drop down to PU (oh how the mighty have fallen). Who knows; Manectric + Electivire Electric-spam could become the next best thing.
Inspired by this post, I've been trying this myself.


Manectric @ Expert Belt
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Timid
-Thunderbolt
-Volt Switch
-Overheat
-Hidden Power Water/Signal Beam


Electivire @ Life Orb
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Nature: Jolly/Hasty
-Wild Charge
-Earthquake
-Ice Punch
-Cross Chop/Flanethrower/Psychic/Toxic/other

These two sets cover a shocking amount of ground. Manectric's Expert Belt lets it bluff a choice item. Thunderbolt is STAB, Volt Switch is for pivoting (I use this with a Mesprit carrying U-turn), Overheat is for Grass, Bug, and Steel types, and HP Water is largely filler but I use it to hit Rhydon and Golem. Signal Beam could be run in this slot also, if you want to target Grumpig. Electivire uses a full physical set to distinguish itself from Manectric. Again, Wild Charge is STAB and gets fully invested. Earthquake hits things like Garbodor, Muk, and Fire-types. Ice Punch hits Ground-types such as Golurk, and even more so Torterra, with the 4x Ice weakness. Cross Chop is primarily for Piloswine, I suppose you could put a special coverage move here instead, but this is personal preference. I know Electivire often runs special moves but it's physical coverage is fantastic.

Feel free to give thoughts or suggestions.
 

Shadestep

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I want to give my two cents about Manectric here, mainly because I don't think people give it enough credit and because I am a bit bored.

what is your guys' opinion on the best item pick for Manectric? I've tried all three options; Choice Specs, Life Orb, and Magnet. all of them perform well but have their own flaws which make them annoying to use, and I am still unsure as to what others find.
- Choice Specs. Specs Manectric is nothing to laugh at. it's superstrong, gets a 1.5 x boost on HP Grass which is very very useful for dealing with Lanturn, and has stronger Overheats to deal with Sp. Def Vileplume and Piloswine, i guess.. the main drawback of this set tho, is that it forces prediction every time you send it in. literally all teams have a Volt Switch immunity (atleast they should have) which makes it hard to pull the trigger on clicking Thunderbolt / Volt Switch. I feel like whenever I use Manectric, people are more focused on keeping their ground-type / Lanturn alive throughout the match. This makes Choice Specs Manectric very hard to play with, needing a lot of prediction to work out the way you want it. one big plus about Choice Specs > Life Orb / Magnet is the fact that it can 2HKO Malamar after SR with Thunderbolt, meaning it can serve as a secondary Malamar 'check' I guess. Specs + Switcheroo is cool too, but you may end up crippling yourself with it just as much as you cripple your Switcheroo-target.
- Life Orb. Life Orb Manectric is I think the most common one, at least as far as I have seen. LO boosted HP Grass still hurt non-AV Lanturn a lot and it helps clear the way for teammates like Pyroar to sweep later on in the game. the 10% HP loss every turn, combined with continuous switching into SR, Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes seeing as Manectric has to switch out quite often vs. faster mons, makes it so Manectric wears itself down superfast. Now for Pokemon like Zangoose who are mainly used as a one-time-nuke, this isn't that big of a problem but for Pokemon that are supposed to come in multiple times, deal some damage, and switch out, it is a problem. I see myself sacking off Manectric quite early in the game whenever I use Life Orb as it gets down to like 40-45 % HP rather quick, making it next to useless in the rest of the battle.
- Magnet. Magnet or Zap Plate Manectric still hits decently hard with its STAB, but loses a lot of power on Overheat and HP Grass. Magnet is mainly used to make your opponent think you are Specs and locked into Thunderbolt as they switch in their Lilligant or Vileplume. the calcs are very similar so your opponent might just think you got an extremely low roll or something. Overheating the switch-in can give you a really nice kill, but it's still pretty weak and it needs support from teammates or spikes to really work to its fullest potential. I like this set, I don't think it's too common and it can definitely catch some people off-guard. It's not as strong as you'd like, though, which can make it a sub-optimal pick, depending on the team.


Lastly, some Other Options for Manectric that can be used: Substitute + Pokemon that pressure Lanturn can work as you can Sub up on the switch and proceed to kill the weakened Lanturn. is also very nice vs. WispHex Rotom, as you beat that more easily. Specs Signal Beam has a 80% chance to OHKO Malamar from full, so it's a really nice lure if your team is weak to it. can also be used with Life Orb but I wouldn't recommend it with Magnet, as the damage output is really weak and most of the time you'd just with you had a different coverage move on your Mane.

anyways, thanks for reading and I hope this can spark some new discussion because I hate seeing the np thread being dead :(
 

erisia

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So this is kind of a rebuttal for my previous post but I actually don't think Electivire has gotten any worse with Manectric entering the picture. Sure Manectric is faster and has stronger special attacks, but Electivire can reliably beat Lanturn, Magmortar, and even Hariyama to a degree with Earthquake. This is a big difference that I think actually makes Electivire a bigger threat to teams in general. Electivire's Speed tier is still decent for an offensive Pokémon, and unlike Manectric it can potentially mitigate this with Motor Drive and suddenly gets a much better matchup against Archeops, Floatzel, and Swellow, all mons that Manectric would really like to force out. Just a quick note tbh.

As for Manectric, I think Life Orb is probably the best item because its HP stat is basically just a timer and isn't actually relevant for taking attacks, and the extra power for Overheat / HP Grass is great. Choice Specs could also be decent but I haven't actually seen it tbh.
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

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Specs seems like a horrible option. Being locked into an electric type move in this meta is trash with steelix, other ground types on ths rise, as well as lantern loses you a lot of momentum which is what manectric wants so that it can keep pressuring teams. Switcheroo seems cool but manectric needs double electric stab as well as overheat + hidden power but that's more of a gimmick than anything else.

Just use life orb or magnet or even e-belt
 
| 60 | Trevenant | 3.47764% | 9833 | 5.634% | 7444 | 5.551% |
| 61 | Gastrodon | 3.46025% | 10461 | 5.994% | 8115 | 6.051% |
| 62 | Aggron | 3.11686% | 8990 | 5.151% | 7042 | 5.251% |
| 63 | Smeargle | 2.92780% | 8468 | 4.852% | 7417 | 5.531% |
| 65 | Gurdurr | 2.27461% | 2283 | 1.308% | 1784 | 1.330% |

Trevenant and Gastrodon have a chance to drop, Aggron and Smeargle will likely drop, and Gurdurr might be returning.
 
My thoughts on the potential drops


Trevenant I think will have a hard time establishing himself in NU with all the fire pokemon running rampant, and half of the common spin blockers either carrying coverage for him or straight up beating him, which makes his role as a spin blocker questionable. The defensive set he could pull off is probably done better by Gourgeist, but I like the fact his abilities either make him one of the best non-water absorb non-storm drain Scald switch ins or at least leave a looooot of freedom for creative team building with Harvest. Choice Band will probably be fire and be good at breaking slower teams, but again, has too many fast and common counters in the tier. Just looking at the top tier, Taurus can come in on Shadow Claws, Garbo, Jynx, Kanga, Magmortar, Pyroar, Rotom, Shiftry give him loads of trouble, Modest Samurott has a chance to OHKO after rocks with Ice Beam. I like using Trev in RU, where he's mediocre at best too due to mons like Virizion or Venusaur, but I have a hard time seeing him having the biggest impact in the tier, just because he loses too hard to stuff that is too common.



Gastrodon would be interesting as his niche is currently being fulfilled by Quagsire. Gastrodon packs a bit more of a punch, has more HP, more special and less physical bulk. I think this might find it's way on stall team that has different ways of dealing with set up sweepers than Unaware Quagsire, but other than that, I don't see it being to common. Probably ranked aroun somewhere B. It's a new Memento user too, which is cool I guess, but I don't think it's going too matter too much in the long run. It's a pokemon that was made for stall, and I don't see stall as a very common, albeit strong arche type right now.



Aggron I am genuinely excited about. Having options for stealth rockers is always nice, and I imagine you can pull some tricky stuff with Sturdy, Custap Berry, Endeavor and Head Smash, though that is probably done better by lead Archeops. What I am really excited for is banded Aggron, as it has a good attack stat, a HUGE move pool and clearly defined strengths and weaknesses. I think we will see this a lot, probably being paired with stuff like Scyther. I think physical Swellow would make for an amazing partner for banded aggron, too. We'll see how this goes, but I am a fan.



Smeargle I have no real opinion about since I don't know too much about it. I know it's supposed to be a suicide lead 99% of the time, and I know it's doing a good job at that in RU. I hope sticky web doesn't get viable as an archetype because of him, because I really dislike playing against it. Other than that, the dude obviously has a giant move pool, but in reality I think the most common set we'll see will be along the lines of Stealth Rock / Status move / Hazard move / Filler based on what the team needs. Maybe someone comes in and does a sick Sub Belly Drum Baton Pass set - but I doubt it.



Gurdurr I am genuinely not excited about, he was one of the reasons I stopped playing NU because he was sooooo god damn common. The meta back then was better equipped to deal with him, still having Uxie and Fletchinder readily available to bring a stop to this guy's cleaning capabilities. Gurdurr is just a bitch, you can't status him, if he comes in with any sort of momentum you're basically fucked because you're sure as hell seeing that guy click bulk up, and he has access to a recovery move + priority + the strongest move in gen 6 to make use of these newfound stats. Maybe I remember it wrongly, and I sure as hell was a much worse player back then, but I still think Gurdurr would be really oppressive for the tier.

These are my thoughts, I am mainly sharing them to get a discussion going about what the tier will shape up to be after these drops, but also because I want to know if there are any major oversights.​
 
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Ren-chon

Lifesbane, 36 layers. How does it look?
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Lol at people ignoring Smeargle's best movepool, Belly Drum / Extreme Speed / Water Shuriken / Sacred Fire.

Well, now just some random thoughts on the possible drops since it seems people are starting to think about them. If that's not allowed, redirect this post to the trashcan!:
  • Trevenant: Meh, outclassed by Gourgeist defensively and we have better Ghosts offensively. It still get a good niche in being an amazing Scald sponge as well as having a respectable attack. Not many things will be willing to switch on it (Audino and Weezing being obvious counters to offensive sets), but well it also can't really come in easily lol. As for the above post, I kind of disagree on Garbodor being a nuisance, since Earthquake is a clean 2hko (maybe even a KO if band, too lazy to calc things). The optimal set will probably be LO or CB with Grass STAB / Shadow Claw or Sneak / Earthquake / Rest, WoW or the leftover Ghost STAB. The cool thing I can see about it is that it can actually deal a huge chunk of damage to CM Psychics regardless of how many boosts they have on their back already with Shadow Sneak, and Claw in Mushy's case. All in all, won't change things too much specially when Shiftry is getting more and more common and Darumaka can clearly OHKO it, but drops are always welcome unless you're Abomasnow :]
  • Gastrodon: No, RU. We wanted the OTHER Water/Ground... Anyway, this is actually a cool drop. Can check Skuntank, Steelix, Tauros (errr kinda), Kangaskhan (refer to tauros), Barbaracle, Omastar, special Samurott... Anyway, can check some cool things, but it's hard to justify it's use out of balance or stall. It gets a sick LO offensive set too though which is pretty amazing now that I think about it. It also can actually check Darumaka, which will probably be its main niche in the tier.
  • Aggron: Lol Darumaka does actually outdamages it. Will be a cool SR setter even though I'd rather use Steelix 90% of the time honestly. It's main niche will probably be of abusing Head Smash obscene power, maybe with even some Rock Polish shenanigans. A fearsome wallbreaker for sure, but too slow unfortunately. And as said by De[...]rpz, Swellow would make for an amazing duo with offensive Aggron. Personally I'd still use specs, but that's just my preference really. Also while writing about Gurdurr I noticed that it does actually make a good pair with him too.
  • Smeargle: Meh, not much to say. Tagging cute user dEnIsSsS so he can start thinking about some cool BP teams to use here. Did you know that Darumaka's Superpower can OHKO Smeargle 3 times? This means that he'll reincarnate as an abortion. Two times.
  • Gurdurr: Oh boy, finally. With Sawk having left the tier, Gurdurr will be even better. Tauros is once again on the spotlights, Barbaracle is still common, Shiftry usage skyrocketing lately, choiced Kabutops getting more love, Vileplume being forgotten every time more... The scenario is just perfect for him right now. The Bulk Up set with either Knock Off or Rock Slide will shine even more than before specially if we get Aggron whom can deal with the majority of Gurdurr's checks. Won't make another Darumaka joke. You guys already know that Flare Blitz does 71 min to Gurdurr anyway.
 
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