1. When I say "I want a suspect" not sure about ban I mean I haven't sat down and thought fully about the topic. I haven't fully developed my thoughts / haven't seen a meta with no rachi in it.
2. I haven't yet
3. I suck
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np: Doubles OU Stage 4 - Infamous | Jirachi (Stays in DOU) | Swagger is Banned
- Thread starter Arcticblast
- Start date
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2. I haven't yet
3. I suck
CorruptedOmega
Banned deucer.
Do you all think Volcanion is gonna have any substantial impact on the effectiveness of THALK teams? It can hit at least three members for super effective damage and can heavily damage the others, while also theatening a burn. Personally I've been running Washtom over Thundurus in order to have a safer switch in against opposing Volcanion. Thoughts?
Jirachi needs a suspect, but I definitely won't go for the ban.
Since I started treating this like a suspect thread when it's really not supposed to be ppl started posting suspect posts but now I'll start some actual discussion on Volcanion instead of theorymonning since it's been out for a bit
Volcanion influences the viability of a lot of mons which is actually really good because it sort of says "down with THALK sorts of teams" and "up with the shitmons". A very good case you can see this with is Mega Sceptile which I have been trying for a bit before coming to the conclusion that it's p cool now, considering some of the things people have tried to use to fend off Volcanion. The synergy is actually phenomenal tbh
Edit: Yellow Paint fucked me over with Scarf Abomasnow and Mega Diancie and it looked like a semiroom team ;_; the reign ends
I would say that Mega Sceptile would be like Tier 3 or higher in this new meta, it partners well with Volcanion and co but (for obvious reasons pertaining to bulk/power) probably won't deserve higher than that.
Volcanion influences the viability of a lot of mons which is actually really good because it sort of says "down with THALK sorts of teams" and "up with the shitmons". A very good case you can see this with is Mega Sceptile which I have been trying for a bit before coming to the conclusion that it's p cool now, considering some of the things people have tried to use to fend off Volcanion. The synergy is actually phenomenal tbh
- Steam Eruption can burn pretty much any switchin
- Fire/Water STAB coverage hits basically everything but dragons and waters for at least neutral damage
- Its stronger STABs bar Overheat and Surf (lol surf) have a burn chance
- Hits as hard as Heatran with its Heat Waves/Overheats
- Really good bulk and resists steel, ice, and fire 4x and resists Sylveon Hyper Voice which can be detrimental to some teams
- Rain is fucked when it sees this, really only has electrics to worry about
- Has a higher defense stat to take things like Talonflame and Mega Kangaskhan better than most
- Has problems with genies, as Landorus-T outspeeds and EQs it and Thundurus can KO it with Thunderbolt (Volcanion can't take Life Orb Thunderbolt unless it invests a ton lol)
- Doesn't take hits from dragons so well due to an easily exploitable special defense stat
- Liability to a team against Mega Diancie
- Leaf Storm/Hidden Power Ice OHKOs Landorus-T before it decides to rudely U-turn out on it
- OHKOs Hydreigon and Salamence with Dragon Pulse, but misses it if they're bulky or if it's Latios/Kyurem-B
- It hits waters really well, outspeeding and OHKOing Keldeo with Energy Ball/Leaf Storm while also chunking the others like Suicune
- Outspeeds and OHKOs Mega Diancie don't use Giga Drain ._.
- Redirects Thundurus Thunderbolt and Thunder Wave and gets a boost from it (fucked up font stuff here lol)
- RIP Politoed and electrics on rain lel
- Really frail and sucks ass against Talonflame
- Hits lots of things neutrally which makes it good for late game stuff, but can't lead well
Edit: Yellow Paint fucked me over with Scarf Abomasnow and Mega Diancie and it looked like a semiroom team ;_; the reign ends
I would say that Mega Sceptile would be like Tier 3 or higher in this new meta, it partners well with Volcanion and co but (for obvious reasons pertaining to bulk/power) probably won't deserve higher than that.
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I also have to make the recommendation that nobody use Kanga+Lando-t+Thund+.... because it really just sits there as free af wins everytime, having big problems with either Hoopa+Volc tr or Volcanion hyper offense (esp with sceptile, it's a good mon :() or Jirachi+Diancie which is cancerous af
Jirachi+Azumarill is largely dampened by Volcanion being added to the tier, but Jirachi+Diancie, which also is known to stomp THALK-y things which I just said not to use at the beginning of the post, is extremely cancer. There are few if any (I sure as fuck haven't found any yet and I would be surprised to see more than 1 or 2) real ways to deal with Jirachi+Diancie now while trying to deal with other teams like hyper offense and tr given the new asset both of those have.
Using the team I put in my last post as an example, that team faces opposing hyper offense and tr pretty well and has a 100% winrate easily against THALK-y teams, but I have to dedicate 4 highly unreliable checks to beat 2 mons, and most of how I have to do that involves legitimate suicide.
I would prefer if we just went with a quickban on jirachi but ppl would be pissed off as fuck if we went without a suspect ._.
Also can we please ban Jirachi from oras in dpl :[ no amount of meta development will find a convenient way of dealing with both Jirachi and volcanion and jirachi was cancerous in the first place
Jirachi+Azumarill is largely dampened by Volcanion being added to the tier, but Jirachi+Diancie, which also is known to stomp THALK-y things which I just said not to use at the beginning of the post, is extremely cancer. There are few if any (I sure as fuck haven't found any yet and I would be surprised to see more than 1 or 2) real ways to deal with Jirachi+Diancie now while trying to deal with other teams like hyper offense and tr given the new asset both of those have.
Using the team I put in my last post as an example, that team faces opposing hyper offense and tr pretty well and has a 100% winrate easily against THALK-y teams, but I have to dedicate 4 highly unreliable checks to beat 2 mons, and most of how I have to do that involves legitimate suicide.
I would prefer if we just went with a quickban on jirachi but ppl would be pissed off as fuck if we went without a suspect ._.
Also can we please ban Jirachi from oras in dpl :[ no amount of meta development will find a convenient way of dealing with both Jirachi and volcanion and jirachi was cancerous in the first place
Stratos
Banned deucer.
do they really? volcanions good on tr but it also super owns it. I don't think full TR is seeing a net gain from this drop.
dat bein said. totally agree that guest is retarded with the "dont use kang and genies" line, though i also think that the "every team must have genies now" people are also overreacting to volcanion dropping. This mon is pretty consistently great (its like if rotom-w had good stats), but I don't think it picks on anyone one team archetype more than any other.
A Follow Me user is only as good as the mon it is supporting. Do you think Jirachi is the main offender of the pair? Granted, Jirachi is a killer FM user. I've always considered Jirachi to be the superior FM user, even during the earlier stages of XY where Togekiss was preferred by most players. However, the metagame isn't exactly kind to Jirachi, with the two most common spread moves being Earthquake and Heat Wave. With the recent additions of Volcanion and Hoopa-U in combination with top threats like Aegislash, Heatran, and Thundurus, we have even more ways of shutting down Jirachi. Meanwhile, I personally find Jirachi's ability to dampen the effects of Kangaskhan, Diancie, and Talonflame's Brave Bird in a match as a boon to the metagame rather than a burden.
My main beef would be focused more at Azumarill. This cheese is too strong. Note the infamous bunny team that new people ripped off of TGMD to perform decently. That team doesn't even use Jirachi to support Azumarill, and the cheese will remain cheese even without its star shield. Azumarill pairs nicely with so many prominent threats. Kangaskhan, which is the best mega, can easily support Azumarill to BDrum (although leading with the two will probably not work against most people). Mega Gengar, an underrated Pokemon, can easily set a field that is best suited for Azumarill's Belly Drum. Then you have stuff like Fake Out + Transform Mew to double the trouble. Talonflame + Azumarill is a potent offensive pair that snipes each other's checks with their respective priority except for Rotom-W.
Even if Jirachi leaves, Azumarill sets up so efficiently that practically any inferior and moderately bulky FM user can take its place and guarantee the cheese to ripen. It doesn't take much skill to use Azumarill imo, whereas there's a high learning curve at the beginning to learn how to defeat Azumarill (aka Azumarill lets less skilled player to win games against a stronger player). Azumarill is not necessary a steal, but I do believe it cheapens the game.
That's not to say I want Azumarill out of the tier, but I certainly find this bunny a lot more deserving of the suspect status than Jirachi
My main beef would be focused more at Azumarill. This cheese is too strong. Note the infamous bunny team that new people ripped off of TGMD to perform decently. That team doesn't even use Jirachi to support Azumarill, and the cheese will remain cheese even without its star shield. Azumarill pairs nicely with so many prominent threats. Kangaskhan, which is the best mega, can easily support Azumarill to BDrum (although leading with the two will probably not work against most people). Mega Gengar, an underrated Pokemon, can easily set a field that is best suited for Azumarill's Belly Drum. Then you have stuff like Fake Out + Transform Mew to double the trouble. Talonflame + Azumarill is a potent offensive pair that snipes each other's checks with their respective priority except for Rotom-W.
Even if Jirachi leaves, Azumarill sets up so efficiently that practically any inferior and moderately bulky FM user can take its place and guarantee the cheese to ripen. It doesn't take much skill to use Azumarill imo, whereas there's a high learning curve at the beginning to learn how to defeat Azumarill (aka Azumarill lets less skilled player to win games against a stronger player). Azumarill is not necessary a steal, but I do believe it cheapens the game.
That's not to say I want Azumarill out of the tier, but I certainly find this bunny a lot more deserving of the suspect status than Jirachi
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I really like Volcanion and what it brings to the table. I would like to see more comments on the third move, I see people assume sludge bomb instantly, but I think it's interesting to consider earth power, since it's the best way to dispose of enemy Volcanion, should you desperately need it in your team, even though it's probably preferable if you had other means to deal with it (Rotom-W, a dragon) rather than use a subpar move. Still worth a mention, imo.
It is quite good both against TR and in a full TR team, but a Tailwind team with both it and Hoopa-U can be really outstanding, having such an offensive pressure your only problem would actually be TR (which you can defeat, just don't click "tailwind" until setter is taken care of).
Re. Azumarill: I think it is very good, but not bannable. After all you have spread moves, Taunt, etc.
It is quite good both against TR and in a full TR team, but a Tailwind team with both it and Hoopa-U can be really outstanding, having such an offensive pressure your only problem would actually be TR (which you can defeat, just don't click "tailwind" until setter is taken care of).
Re. Azumarill: I think it is very good, but not bannable. After all you have spread moves, Taunt, etc.
Both of the third moves seem pretty lackluster to me, as they literally only cover 1 mon each (azu and volcanion) unless you count sludge bombs ability to hit crap like rotom and dragons neutrally, which, again, lackluster. I've been playing with substitute and have been liking it a lot (topped the ladder with a sub volcanion team for whatever thats worth). My impression of it is that it looks like a heatran and plays like a kyub in that while neither volcanion or kyub have the amazing defensive typing that heatran has (though neither are bad in their own rights), the amount of offensive pressure that volcanion, like kyub, can put on a team generates free sub opportunities. Seeing as volcanion can pull of subs, especially since it appears to be getting partnered with tailwind and TR, which encourage the opponent to protect as much as possible to stall out the respective field conditions, makes me think that the general usefulness of subs outweighs the highly situational sludge bomb or earth power.
I personally don't like substitute in the 3rd slot as I like to ev my volcanions to live certain hit, which is obviously harder if you are using 25% of your health to make a sub. I also think its necessary to have a coverage move in the 3rd slot, as it makes you less easily walled and it is easier to support volcanion in terms of removing threats. I like earth power over sludge bomb for the volcanion mirror, but I can definitely see the appeal of sludge bomb to hit fairies. Heat wave is decent too as a STAB spread move along with the more powerful overheat/fire blast.
Who the hell actually voted "Suspect-worthy" or "It's Really Bad"
People that want rain to be viable again (mega pert sucks ass) and/or want amoongus to be viable again.
CorruptedOmega
Banned deucer.
Volcanion doesn't make Rain any less viable since, sure, Volcanion doesn't mind taking Water attacks, but it can't really hit back in return. Even still, Mega Swampert and Kingdra (two rather common Swift Swimmers) can deal with it with their other STAB pretty easily.
Volcanion can only OHKO Amoonguss from full with a single target Fire-type move, which you can run if you want, but with Heat Wave it seems redundant. Just by adding a strong new Fire-type to the meta doesn't mean Amoonguss will become completely unviable. It'll still go on being as just effective as it always has been.
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CorruptedOmega
Banned deucer.
however, you have to factor in that Togekiss is literally utter ass
I've seen some Volcanion teams lately that look a lot like the builder just swapped Heatran for Volcanion and called it a day. This doesn't necessarily mean you've got a bad team though, you just really need/should remember to cover for the absent Steel typing. I know that when I build a DOU team I consider having the valuable resistances that come with a Steel type just as important to have on my squad as an Intimidate user, Fake Out, or Redirection. With that in mind, here are some Volcanion + Steel combinations that I've enjoyed using lately. If you're just swapping Volcanion for Heatran, consider swapping another member on your team with one of these steel types. You don't need to take an entirely new approach to team building with Volcanion if you don't want to, you can just move around a couple of the roles that your team needs.
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The most popular (at least in my experience) steel type to be paired with Volcanion has to be Aegislash. This combination was the first one I went for when Volcanion was released. Most commonly you'll see Volcanion paired with Wide Guard Aegislash to protect Volcanion from Rock Slide and Earthquake. If you're swapping a Substitute Heatran for a 3 attacks Volcanion you might also be able to get away with using a Substitute Aegislash set that offers less support to its teammates, but becomes a stronger stand alone Pokemon who's offensive role shifts from often trading with a key threat to setting up a win condition.
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Another really common Steel for Volcanion teams is Jirachi. Jirachi can offer much needed speed control support to Volcanion with Trick Room, Icy Wind, and Thunder Wave. It can also use Follow Me + Safety Goggles to free up Volcanions item slot for a leftovers + Substitute set or Life Orb.
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A combination that I've been using lately and absolutely love is Volcanion + Bronzong. The obvious benefits of a Trick Room teammate for Volcanion go without saying, but Bronzong also offers a unique partnership with Volcanion: it can switch safely into Rock, Ground, and Electric attacks due to levitate and its respectable bulk (67/116/116), and it can support Volcanion when both mons are on the field. The Bronzong set I've had the most success with so far has been Trick Room / Gyro Ball / Rock Slide / Sunny Day with Colbur Berry, Rock Slide is great for putting standard bulky Mega Charizard Y in range of a Steam Eruption in the sun besides letting Bronzong dent some Pokemon it otherwise couldn't and of course fish for flinches. Cool mon, give it a try.
Fun Fact: Hydreigon destroys these combos.
The most popular (at least in my experience) steel type to be paired with Volcanion has to be Aegislash. This combination was the first one I went for when Volcanion was released. Most commonly you'll see Volcanion paired with Wide Guard Aegislash to protect Volcanion from Rock Slide and Earthquake. If you're swapping a Substitute Heatran for a 3 attacks Volcanion you might also be able to get away with using a Substitute Aegislash set that offers less support to its teammates, but becomes a stronger stand alone Pokemon who's offensive role shifts from often trading with a key threat to setting up a win condition.
Another really common Steel for Volcanion teams is Jirachi. Jirachi can offer much needed speed control support to Volcanion with Trick Room, Icy Wind, and Thunder Wave. It can also use Follow Me + Safety Goggles to free up Volcanions item slot for a leftovers + Substitute set or Life Orb.
A combination that I've been using lately and absolutely love is Volcanion + Bronzong. The obvious benefits of a Trick Room teammate for Volcanion go without saying, but Bronzong also offers a unique partnership with Volcanion: it can switch safely into Rock, Ground, and Electric attacks due to levitate and its respectable bulk (67/116/116), and it can support Volcanion when both mons are on the field. The Bronzong set I've had the most success with so far has been Trick Room / Gyro Ball / Rock Slide / Sunny Day with Colbur Berry, Rock Slide is great for putting standard bulky Mega Charizard Y in range of a Steam Eruption in the sun besides letting Bronzong dent some Pokemon it otherwise couldn't and of course fish for flinches. Cool mon, give it a try.
Fun Fact: Hydreigon destroys these combos.
I would like MGard alongside these two as well, as MGard also covers for Aegi and has become greater as the use of Dragons have increased. I'd prefer it over MDiancie tbh.I've seen some Volcanion teams lately that look a lot like the builder just swapped Heatran for Volcanion and called it a day. This doesn't necessarily mean you've got a bad team though, you just really need/should remember to cover for the absent Steel typing. I know that when I build a DOU team I consider having the valuable resistances that come with a Steel type just as important to have on my squad as an Intimidate user, Fake Out, or Redirection. With that in mind, here are some Volcanion + Steel combinations that I've enjoyed using lately. If you're just swapping Volcanion for Heatran, consider swapping another member on your team with one of these steel types. You don't need to take an entirely new approach to team building with Volcanion if you don't want to, you can just move around a couple of the roles that your team needs.
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The most popular (at least in my experience) steel type to be paired with Volcanion has to be Aegislash. This combination was the first one I went for when Volcanion was released. Most commonly you'll see Volcanion paired with Wide Guard Aegislash to protect Volcanion from Rock Slide and Earthquake. If you're swapping a Substitute Heatran for a 3 attacks Volcanion you might also be able to get away with using a Substitute Aegislash set that offers less support to its teammates, but becomes a stronger stand alone Pokemon who's offensive role shifts from often trading with a key threat to setting up a win condition.
is basic even good? I feel like CHALK and basic Diancie/CharY teams are not good options. Everyone has fought them before, good players build teams that counter them, and you dont see them so much late in seasonals and top tour matches - top players know how to build solid teams that are not something we have seen a million times before
average players use basic. good players dont use basic. y/n?
if yes then imo we should probably tell people looking to improve to build good around mawile, sceptile, aerodactyl, and other "anti-meta" mons. rather than sending them a basic sample team or telling them to pluck 6 mons from tier1, 1.5, 2, and 2' of the viability rankings and be done
average players use basic. good players dont use basic. y/n?
if yes then imo we should probably tell people looking to improve to build good around mawile, sceptile, aerodactyl, and other "anti-meta" mons. rather than sending them a basic sample team or telling them to pluck 6 mons from tier1, 1.5, 2, and 2' of the viability rankings and be done
In order to really get a grasp on the meta, it's important to start out with using those tried and true builds and styles. If you can't find some success with a simple THALK-esque team, then your issue probably isn't in your teambuilding, but in your play.
Also, Mawile and Sceptile are kinda bad and Aero was only really anti-meta when Skymin was around.
Also, Mawile and Sceptile are kinda bad and Aero was only really anti-meta when Skymin was around.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
what? no, foh with that retarded shit. maw and scept arent even anti-meta theyre just ass. and theres nothing wrong with building a team w/ popular mons. i agree u cant just bring the same thalk or diancie talon team to every game or youll get counterteamed and i find a lot of fun in making new creative teams but even like looking at my list of "creative" teams: http://puu.sh/ozyu3/057dd3d456.png, even tho they feel really fresh and innovative to me none of em (except the TR) have more than 1 mon below tier 2, like there are infinite combinations to create without having to build with total ass mons, and building with total ass mons is not how you improve and we should not encourage people to do it.
sforz
[22:14] sforz: i love memes
they are good enough options and many people see success using basic thalk-type cores, and other similarly popular cores.
eventually variety in your teambuilding is required in an attempt to not get blatantly counterteamed in a tournament format. However, standard teams are standard because they can generally see some degree of success unless explicitly counterteamed. as long as you aren't painfully predictable and keep bringing same teams with same counterteam leverage, there's no need to mess around with much less viable mons. yes you can make mawile work, probably. but you don't have to use any of those stuff to be successful.
I actually went to the DOU Seasonals thread to see if your claims were true:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-364023411
p2 brings a very standard looking diancie bish talon keldeo core.
checkmater also brings the standard mega gardevoir tr core consisting of volcanion, scrafty, amoonguss, etc.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-364016497
checkmater brings standard™ kanga azu jirachi core team
p2's team doesn't exactly fall under super standard archetypes but these are all pokemon that you wouldn't be surprised to see on any team, feel free to point out if im missing something here ofc
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-363383503
dawg brings kanga double genies amoonguss. if it's not standard idk what is lol...
samvgc uses diancie hydreigon lando amoonguss which makes for a very standard core. if you don't think this is standard...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-363388530
now dawg uses basically the same team which kind of is a testament to how standard a core this is. sets are diff but ofc w/e lol
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-363392774
this time samvgc again uses a very similar diancie hydrei lando rotom core, and mind you rotom was on the previous 2 diancie teams too, everything looks quite similar here. that's because they're standard.
i could go on but it'd just be wasting our time. I do understand the benefit in letting new players mess around with their new gimmicks and teams and underused Pokemon. It gives a lot of johnnies large amount of motivation and gets them invested in the game, and you'll see why some stuff just work with less effort. but you don't have to use them, and they certainly aren't straight up better than standard™
eventually variety in your teambuilding is required in an attempt to not get blatantly counterteamed in a tournament format. However, standard teams are standard because they can generally see some degree of success unless explicitly counterteamed. as long as you aren't painfully predictable and keep bringing same teams with same counterteam leverage, there's no need to mess around with much less viable mons. yes you can make mawile work, probably. but you don't have to use any of those stuff to be successful.
I actually went to the DOU Seasonals thread to see if your claims were true:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-364023411
p2 brings a very standard looking diancie bish talon keldeo core.
checkmater also brings the standard mega gardevoir tr core consisting of volcanion, scrafty, amoonguss, etc.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-364016497
checkmater brings standard™ kanga azu jirachi core team
p2's team doesn't exactly fall under super standard archetypes but these are all pokemon that you wouldn't be surprised to see on any team, feel free to point out if im missing something here ofc
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-363383503
dawg brings kanga double genies amoonguss. if it's not standard idk what is lol...
samvgc uses diancie hydreigon lando amoonguss which makes for a very standard core. if you don't think this is standard...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-363388530
now dawg uses basically the same team which kind of is a testament to how standard a core this is. sets are diff but ofc w/e lol
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-363392774
this time samvgc again uses a very similar diancie hydrei lando rotom core, and mind you rotom was on the previous 2 diancie teams too, everything looks quite similar here. that's because they're standard.
i could go on but it'd just be wasting our time. I do understand the benefit in letting new players mess around with their new gimmicks and teams and underused Pokemon. It gives a lot of johnnies large amount of motivation and gets them invested in the game, and you'll see why some stuff just work with less effort. but you don't have to use them, and they certainly aren't straight up better than standard™
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