Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[Deej Dy]

B->B
With Sceptile gone, prominent pokemon like tauros/archeops became great again, and regirock having ability to check some of the top tier threats without difficulties makes it a great stealth rocker in this metagame. Its rock typing, titanic defense stat, and a really solid spdef makes it a great physical wall while also providing a good check to Special sweepers like Swellow,vivillon, and fire types like Zard,pyroar,magmortar. It competes with steelix and rhydon for a stealth rock user, but having a greater spdef stat, not having a crippling X4 weakness to grass(which most fire types have as coverage move)like Don,being able to have passive recovery in leftovers, and having access to thunder wave to support team is pretty useful.

B->B
Quagsire is a pokemon that fits best on defensive teams(particularly stall teams) because its a great addition to stall and it does great job there,it hardly finds its use outside of more defensive builds because its somewhat passive, Stall archetypes arent that common from what ive seen but Stall definitely has the good potential in right hands and a lot of people are not prepared for it. Quagsire also walls a lot of threats in this meta,from SD rott/tops/malamar to pokemon like DD rhydon/SD scyther and even the bigger threats like tauros which makes it a good physical wall with nice bulk and Unaware ability.

A>A-
While I can agree why Vivillon is a good sweeper(having the ability to fire off a strong hurricanes without really being afraid to miss since its good ability in compound eyes, having the access to Sleep powder,quiver dances) ,its bad bulk/horrible defensive typing/4x stealth rock weakness and relying on sash is downside of using it, also now that Steelix is one of the best stealth rocker in tier being able to check it pretty decently, lanturn rise in usage also hurts it,and regirock is another thing i can see in future being used more that walls it, a lot of offensive threats like floatzel/archeops/tauros and fire types can check it offensively and priority can pick it off, and Id say it needs more support than it used to have in previous metagames.Its still a great pokemon,dont get me wrong,its really threatening to face but I think its at least nomination worthy.

I think Endeavor Viv is still pretty heat as it gets past Steelix or severely weakens it and other mon like Klingklang can come in and do its thang. Quag makes sense it has always been a little underrated. No comment on Regirock.

Here's the set I use which tears apart teams pretty well and at least gets something to sleep:

Viv w da focus sash
252 spc attack 252 speed
Timid
Quiver Dance
Sleep Powder
Hurricane
Endeavor

 

[col49]

oh wow, u always talk like that. tho if could throw some skepticism (note: I like viv), is endeavor not utilized enough for the proper sequence lix should take vs it to almost always be tox -> heavy slam? legit q, i personally am very accustomed to playing w/endeavor in mind

 

[Deej Dy]

oh wow, u always talk like that. tho if could throw some skepticism (note: I like viv), is endeavor not utilized enough for the proper sequence lix should take vs it to almost always be tox -> heavy slam? legit q, i personally am very accustomed to playing w/endeavor in mind

ye bruh alwys tlk like dis lmeo.

Anyway assuming that lix does go for Toxic (which isn't too uncommon) you still have put one mon to sleep rendering it less effective and you can double out to something else. It is worth noting Lix is also not the only victim of Viv, as Lanturn/other slow checks can also get bopped once Viv is it 1 hp or it just has a lot of from damage accrued from SR.

Overall: Worst case scenario something goes to sleep, perhaps allowing something later (i.e Shiftry/Samurott) to sweep. Better case scenario something is asleep and another mon is significantly damaged/Quiver dance does work.

 

[col49]

ok, I think you are misconstruing my argument here. ur initial sentiments would suggest that endeavor would, under the parameters of neutral field (both dudes at full, unstatused) and post-sleep powder, net a kill. I assume as much given that, if we are to assume the powder is still an option in this hypothetical, then endeavor wouldn't be coming into play in the first place. that said, I feel as though endeavor does not make viv any more effective at softening up teams than any given alternative, based off the typical fly resists; rotom and lanturn shouldn't be volt switching unless they've got priority in the back (otherwise, being the primary fly resist in this context, it'd be best they look to take one for the team), steeling goes through the aformentioned tox sequence, regirock would similarly this status first, and rhydon would supersede any of that via rock blast. the only exception I see here is dubdance rhydon, and I'm rather confident eball is notably better for that. so, in summation, I am exclusively arguing the point of endeavor being a significant enough boon to bind an argument for viv to stay where it is, drop, w.e . apologies if I came off hostile (except w/the vernacular thing, I earnestly feel you would be better if scrapping that), I'm not particularly eloquent as is and it doesn't help tryna compose a statement between sorting one package to the next >_<

e: so I am agreeing that sash civilian is very capable of disrupting stuff and crippling 1-2 mins, albeit not in the fashion you describe* (in a realistic setting where the opp has a fundamental understanding of how viv plays)

 

[Take Azelfie]

C- ---> D
This Pokemon is way too hard to use effectively is going to be statement surrounding this drop. You have to provide switch ins to pretty much any physical attacker if you want to preserve Flareon which is already extremely hard to do. It has to take recoil and potential rocks damage making it hard to last for more than 1 turn. Its bulk and speed is pretty bad meaning it is often forced to switch out. There are also three Pokemon which this fares better against than other Fire-types, yep that is right only THREE. Regirock, Cradily and Mega Audino, and while Mega Audino is a very prominent there are a lot of other Pokemon in this tier who can also handle it more reliably. The fire immunity also seems cool at first untill you try it out in practice. Flash Fire barely helps it break its checks by a little bit. Ultimately I find hardly any reason to actually use this Pokemon.

C- ---> C/C+
I had talked about this Mon before and I think my point still stands. It is a nice utility in its Sub sets (either being LO Pain Split or Lefties Will-o-Wisp) due to the Ice resist and good offensive pressence because of Scarf. Although it relies on a move with shaky accuracy (Blizzard) it still is nice (we have been relying on Focus Blast, this can't be too hard to ask for) Not to mention you have about a 7.3% chance to come across Abomasnow or Aurorus with Snow Warning (according to statistics) which means you'll be able to get 100% Blizzards anytime they come in. Another thing is that Rotom-Frost is DEFINATELY better than anything in C- and is way more comparable to the likes of Lapras and Clefairy.

 

[erisia]

A > A-: Disagree: Probably a bit late to the Vivillon discussion but my stance on Vivillon hasn't really changed. Sure it's not the most splashable of mons and sure its Speed tier is a little disappointing at first, but you can't underestimate a 97.5% accurate Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance. Bring Vivillon into anything slower than it with a slow pivot and it's guaranteed to at least put something to sleep, if not KO a mon with Endeavor or sweep outright with Quiver Dance. I also firmly believe that Substitute + Leftovers is the best set at the moment as it doesn't rely on SR being removed on it to be effective and it lets Vivillon basically 1v1 any slower mon with ease so long as it lacks a multi-hit move or Hyper Voice or something. The Endeavor set is also great and really chunks stuff that expects to beat it. It's probably a little worse than it was before due to AV Lanturn becoming more common but not enough to drop to A- imo.

C- > D: Agree: I used to think that Flareon was a decent option because Flash Fire Flare Blitz was so ludicrously powerful, but this is really moot when this tier has some of the sturdiest 4x Fire-resists in the game, like Omastar, Carracosta, and even Barbaracle, and while Flareon can get past them with Superpower it then gets forced out pretty much immediately. If Flare Blitz does land, it does like 50% to Flareon (especially if you use it against the aforementioned Mega Audino) and makes it super easy to revenge kill with almost anything. If Flareon had a better Speed tier (like 80 or 85) then I might consider it but as it stands this is just a liability. I haven't used the defensive set but it seems like a good fit for certain stall teams so that's my main reason for letting it stay in D rank tbh. If this gets unranked then maybe unrank Frillish too for consistency's sake.

C- > C: Disagree: While it's true that Hail has become more common with Abomasnow gaining some popularity, I think the opportunity cost of running this over Rotom (or even Rotom-Fan) on a non-hail team should be considered when they offer so much more defensive utility. I've even been tempted to run Rotom-Fan over this on Hail teams due to its Fighting and Steel-type resists and lack of stacking weaknesses; Ice is such a good attacking type in NU but it sort of offers diminishing returns as Aurorus + Abomasnow is usually enough to break through teams. However, it's still a good revenge killer in those contexts if you want a fast Blizzard user. Also comparing Blizzard to Focus Blast isn't really valid because every Ice-type gets Ice Beam while nothing gets Aura Sphere for coverage; if they did they certainly wouldn't be running Focus Blast.

 

[ryan]

if you guys unrank flareon i will return from the abyss and take half of you motherfuckers down with me so help me god

 

[ryan]

i swear to god ill do it too

 

[Punchshroom]

ryan While you're at it, can you also take down the people who think Vanilluxe is still C worthy?

B- to B

For starters, lemme just say that Curse is pretty much mandatory on Quag, as it allows it to actually beat down Malamar, Cro Mega Audino, and non-Psychic / Stored Power Musharna, as well as allow it to gain some actual leeway against immediate hard-hitters such as Tauros, Kangaskhan, and even Choice Band Primeape, threats which Quag is either forced to Toxic then spam Recover, or outright lose against if it doesn't get t1 Scald burn. However, even with its free moveslots restrained to two, I find Quag actually has some decent customizability going on for it. I've toyed around with Toxic + Earthquake, Curse + Waterfall, and even Infestation + Waterfall / Earthquake; Infestation allowing the Quag user to evade having to predict double switches against Quag's checks / counters, as well as trap some unfortunate physical attacker foolhardy enough to stay in. These move combinations give Quag a decent amount of variability and do not hinder its overall success, although Quag still has enough limits for me to hesitate to nom it higher (without Scald, Quagsire fails to pressure Grass mons immune to Toxic, and Infestation + EQ leaves it open to Scyther). Still, B Rank is respectable enough for Quagsire to work with.

D to C-

Metang has many useful resistances to Ice, Grass, Flying, Normal, Psychic, and Fairy, and it has the bulk to be able to stomach these hits. This makes Metang one of the tier's best counters / checks to things like Jynx, Abomasnow, Vivillon, Swellow, Musharna, and Mega Audino, which is a niche plenty solid enough for C-. Something I've experimented with is Power-Up Punch > Earthquake in order to solidify the Mega Audino matchup, in exchange for weakening the matchup against the Aftermath Pokemon in Garbodor and Skuntank as well as hitting grounded Fire-types on the switch, though those matchups have been shaky for Metang in the first place.

probably remain in C+

I've had some good fun with offensive Mawile as of late, but I have to say that its stats very noticeably hinder it for any role it chooses. Offensive Mawile has some terrific coverage that can prove difficult to stomach and is boosted for free thanks to Sheer Force + Life Orb, but its bulk is far too low to take advantage of its typing / salvage its bad Speed, and its Sucker Punch is not strong enough to make a substantial difference, especially since it can't really afford Swords Dance anymore. Defensive Mawile is both held back by its unimpressive bulk (unable to fully make use of its special resists) and competition from Steelix and even Metang, the former boasting decent offensive presence and the latter being able to capitalize on its resists more effectively, which sadly overshadow Mawile's decent supportive movepool.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

So, as I posted here, I created a lopunny set I believe is fully viable and actually deserving of a decent rank. I'd throw an unranked => C+ as I've actually won some games against a couple of great players using this set. For those who don't feel like reading the linked post, lopunny basicaly cosmic powers it's way to ridiculous bulkiness, subs against anything trying to status/seed/trick it (although it doesn't even need to for t-wave because of limber) and baton passes all that fun stuff to whatever can use it properly. Encore is to get more set up opportunities although magic coat can be used to bounce back taunt, roar and whirlwind (roar and whirlwind being pretty uncommon in NU frankly).
Now it's not that easy to use bulk boosts to help you sweep and often requires creating special sets that do so, but it's still very possible and can work pretty consistantly if used correctly. Handicaping fighting types with burn, memento or simply killing them is mandatory if you want to get more than a single boost out of loppunny, but even a single boost can help you sweep if used properly. Other than hitmonchan, ape, throh and yama, there's really not that much threatening loppunny immediatly since it's decently bulky and so fast it will nearly always set up it's first cosmic power before taking a hit. By experience with this set, trust me, setting up is not the hard part, I often do it twice in the same game, sweeping with your reciever and not getting crit is the hard part. Anyway I won't repeat what I alraedy wrote in the linked post so you can go read that for more input on how to use it.

I'm pretty sure I'm one of the very few players to acutally have used this set and therefore it'll be hard to start a discussion about it's rank, but I encourage you guys to try it out real quick. Even if your team is not optimized to use it's boosts correctly, you will witness how easy it is to set this up and pass it's boosts and just go with your experience of the game to know how imposing a mon with +3 in both defences can be although it's far from meaning you've already won.
Some of you might want to see it go lower than C+ and who knows, maybe some will want it higher, but it definately should not stay unranked (although I understand evidence of this set is basicaly nowhere and people new to the tier probably won't guess for what reasons it's there).

 

[Deeerpz]

So, as I posted here, I created a lopunny set I believe is fully viable and actually deserving of a decent rank. I'd throw an unranked => C+ as I've actually won some games against a couple of great players using this set. For those who don't feel like reading the linked post, lopunny basicaly cosmic powers it's way to ridiculous bulkiness, subs against anything trying to status/seed/trick it (although it doesn't even need to for t-wave because of limber) and baton passes all that fun stuff to whatever can use it properly. Encore is to get more set up opportunities although magic coat can be used to bounce back taunt, roar and whirlwind (roar and whirlwind being pretty uncommon in NU frankly).
Now it's not that easy to use bulk boosts to help you sweep and often requires creating special sets that do so, but it's still very possible and can work pretty consistantly if used correctly. Handicaping fighting types with burn, memento or simply killing them is mandatory if you want to get more than a single boost out of loppunny, but even a single boost can help you sweep if used properly. Other than hitmonchan, throh and yama, there's really not that much threatening loppunny immediatly since it's decently bulky and so fast it will nearly always set up it's first cosmic power before taking a hit. By experience with this set, trust me, setting up is not the hard part, I often do it twice in the same game, sweeping with your reciever and not getting crit is the hard part. Anyway I won't repeat what I alraedy wrote in the linked post so you can go read that for more input on how to use it.

I'm pretty sure I'm one of the very few player to acutally have used this set and therefore it'll be hard to start a discussion about it's rank, but I encourage you guys to try it out real quick. Even if your team is not optimized to use it's boosts correctly, you will witness how easy it is to set this up and pass it's boosts and just go with your experience of the game to know how imposing a mon with +3 in both defences can be although it's far from meaning you've already won.
Some of you might want to see it go lower than C+ and who knows, maybe some will want it higher, but it definately should not stay unranked (although I understand evidence of this set is basicaly nowhere and people new to the tier probably won't guess for what reasons it's there).

I second this recommendation. I've played around with Lopunny a bit after your original post and it fits loads of teams quite nicely, as it has so many good receivers. I've combined it with a multitude of Pokemon and it seems like it works with a LOT of stuff. Receivers I have tried and found to be helpful are Life Orb Power up Punch Hitmonchan, Nasty Plot Draining Kiss Jynx, Double Dance Rhydon, Lilligant, Rampardos. It's a cool set and definitely fills a niche we haven't being seen used super sucessfully yet. One thing I have noticed throughout my experiments is that often times Barrier CM BP Musharna would fulfilll a similar role while also threatening a sweep itself, but Encore/Magic Coat definitely give Lopunny a certain degree of uniqueness.

 

[Blapperl]

I support a lopunny rise, this thing fulfills it's role better than anything else in the tier. I've been experimenting with an all in Dual Screens BP Team and the ease with which it sets up is scary.
Encore>Magic coat denies Setup sweepers that do not Boost speed, which makes it the go to Option imo as you are more free in teambuilding.
Taunt or phaze is annoying, but most of the mons that get that are Beat by stored power xatu which happens to be an excellent Receiver.
Certainly a mon to give a Chance.

 

[Punchshroom]

C- ---> C+
Scarf ramp is really good, it has good speed while still maintaining phenomenal attack. Has great coverage and the surprise factor is nice. Also unlike most scarfers, ramp enjoys being locked into its rock stab 90% of the time. Scarf allows it to outspeed key things like archeops, tauros and anything below. It also differs from most scarf pokemon as it still has the power to OHKO certain things.

Also unlike most Scarfers, Rampardos only manages to outrun unboosted threats, and not even all of them too (it only barely outspeeds base 110s, so it won't be outrunning the likes of Floatzel and Swellow). Meanwhile, if I wanted to revenge stuff like Archeops, Tauros, and other such offensive Pokemon, other Scarfers are still on the table. Scarf Primeape in particular can pick off many of the offensive mons Scarf Rampardos wants to revenge, while having the benefit of outrunning boosted threats such as +1 Lilligant, +2 Rhydon, and +2 Omastar. There are even other potential Rock-type Scarfers to consider, namely Kabutops and Barbaracle who possess additional STAB and even utility in Rapid Spin and Switcheroo, respectively.

probably C, wouldn't object to C+

CosmicPass has always been one of Lopunny's eye-catching niches, especially considering its Speed and diverse disruptive / supportive movepool. However, its complete lack of resistances and offensive presence gives me hesitation to give it a generous ranking, plus the fact that it realistically only pulls off the Pass once. Moreover, since purely defensive boosts rarely get anyone anywhere, you better ensure Lopunny's recipients can pick up the slack, which also limits the range of effective partners for Lopunny. With that said, I concur that Lopunny does have some tools to help it in its task. Being blessed with high natural Speed and not-terrible bulk allows it to ensure a fast Cosmic Power or two and Pass them off without too much hassle. Limber also prevents paralysis, which is easily the most detrimental status ailment for Lopunny, greatly easing its task and lessening the need for Substitute. It's also the fastest Healing Wish user in the tier, so even if it cannot Pass anymore, it can still remain relevant by quickly revitalizing a teammate. Lopunny does suffer a slight case of 4MSS though, as it wants Cosmic Power, Baton Pass, Encore, Healing Wish, and Magic Coat, so that may hold it back from C+.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

probably C, wouldn't object to C+

CosmicPass has always been one of Lopunny's eye-catching niches, especially considering its Speed and diverse disruptive / supportive movepool. However, its complete lack of resistances and offensive presence gives me hesitation to give it a generous ranking, plus the fact that it realistically only pulls off the Pass once. Moreover, since purely defensive boosts rarely get anyone anywhere, you better ensure Lopunny's recipients can pick up the slack, which also limits the range of effective partners for Lopunny. With that said, I concur that Lopunny does have some tools to help it in its task. Being blessed with high natural Speed and not-terrible bulk allows it to ensure a fast Cosmic Power or two and Pass them off without too much hassle. Limber also prevents paralysis, which is easily the most detrimental status ailment for Lopunny, greatly easing its task and lessening the need for Substitute. It's also the fastest Healing Wish user in the tier, so even if it cannot Pass anymore, it can still remain relevant by quickly revitalizing a teammate. Lopunny does suffer a slight case of 4MSS though, as it wants Cosmic Power, Baton Pass, Encore, Healing Wish, and Magic Coat, so that may hold it back from C+.

I don't meen to be rude, but a couple of things seem wrong in what you said and you should maybe try lopunny before commenting on it. First off

CosmicPass has always been one of Lopunny's eye-catching niches

I don't want to look like I'm boasting the fact I posted that set, but just this intro comes out of nowhere, lopunny hasn't been in the tier for very long, cosmic passing is not even mentionned in it's PU description (NU being non existant), it's got way better things to do than cosmic passing in OU and it didn't even learn cosmic power in last gens...

it realistically only pulls off the Pass once & ensure a fast Cosmic Power or two

What the 3 comments of people above who've actually used lopunny are saying is that it's actually a lot easier to set up than one might think. Plus, as I said in my original post (in evergreen thread), you can always use healing wish mesprit to get back your lopunny if your team's strategy heavily relies on it. I've managed to set up my lopunny twice with HW help and win against realistic waters even though he had a frost breath cryo and he's one of the best NU players out there.

Lopunny does suffer a slight case of 4MSS though, as it wants Cosmic Power, Baton Pass, Encore, Healing Wish, and Magic Coat

Those are all good moves on lopunny, but it doesn't mean lopunny really feels the need to have them all. Encore is generally superior to magic coat because roar and whirlwind are pretty rare in this meta and so are the taunt users that outspeed lopunny (not the actual mons, but the mons with taunt, like floatzel and archeops don't carry it that often). Besides I don't know if you forgot to include substitute or consider it not that useful because of limber, but it is far more essential to lopunny than healing wish or having both magic coat and encore. Subsitute (in combination with encore) is what protects you from all other status making practically every wall so bad against lopunny it has an extremly good chance of being able to set up more than once if it starts doing so against a wall. It also protects you from a couple of things that would otherwise be baton passed to your reciever like leech seed, stat drops and confusion. Substitute is exaclty what let's you baton pass more than one or two stat boosts as it protects you from scald burns and sludge bomb poisons and after one or two cps, there's a great chance a wole lot of those moves won't even be KO'ing your sub. Finaly, substitute can even be baton passed itself which is very useful for whatever receiver to set up it's attack or sp.a.
Anyway, I could understand lopunny rising only to C, but you clearly haven't tried it and I think it's well deserving of a C+.

 

[Machineae]

Low effortish post but- What recipients have you guys been using? Passing offensive boosts is a lot more simple and I'm not quite sure what I'd appreciate the defensive boosts on besides something like Xatu maybe. Bulky wisp Zard also? Not looking to detract from any point you've made I'd just like an idea of what kind of teams you're using Lopunny with.

 

[erisia]

I can imagine basically just anything with a solid defensive typing, a way to boost its offenses, good coverage, and possibly recovery. Nasty Plot / Shadow Ball / Dazzling Gleam / Pain Split Mismagius jumps out at me. Double Dance Rhydon is also definitely a good one, and I think something with Substitute + Swords Dance / Nasty Plot would also be a good fit (maybe even Pawniard idk).

Unranked > D: As for Lopunny's rank I think D is a good place to start it; it seems like a potentially good way to set up a sweep / fast Healing Wish user but it's basically competing with Memento users that can provide some extra support options without KOing themselves (such as Mismagius, Skuntank, and Jumpluff). I think Lopunny does have a niche but we shouldn't overhype it until it becomes more popular / actually used.

 

[Punchshroom]

I don't meen to be rude, but a couple of things seem wrong in what you said and you should maybe try lopunny before commenting on it. First off I don't want to look like I'm boasting the fact I posted that set, but just this intro comes out of nowhere, lopunny hasn't been in the tier for very long, cosmic passing is not even mentionned in it's PU description (NU being non existant), it's got way better things to do than cosmic passing in OU and it didn't even learn cosmic power in last gens...

Now this comment here enlightens me on how long you've been playing this tier, or at least the metas you haven't played, because Lopunny was present in the NU tier during XY, before ORAS. So yeah, Lopunny has set foot in Gen 6 NU a good long while ago, and I've been toying with CosmicPass Lopunny during that period. Also certain niches not being mentioned in different meta analyses may be due to the meta being too different or simply being outdated: that piece of shit ice cream Vanilluxe is an example of this, as its PU analysis does not bring up Explosion at all, and while Explosion is literally the only thing keeping Vanilluxe being barely relevant in NU, its current NU analysis makes no mention of this as well.

What the 3 comments of people above who've actually used lopunny are saying is that it's actually a lot easier to set up than one might think. Plus, as I said in my original post (in evergreen thread), you can always use healing wish mesprit to get back your lopunny if your team's strategy heavily relies on it. I've managed to set up my lopunny twice with HW help and win against realistic waters even though he had a frost breath cryo and he's one of the best NU players out there.

See if you're so invested in the whole setup wincon strat, it probably seems a bit more sensible to Healing Wish the wincon instead of Healing Wishing the mon that only sets up the wincon (kind of like a weather setter / weather sweeper relationship), because this seems somewhat roundabout. Alternatively, since Lopunny has Healing Wish itself, it could CosmicPass to the recipient the first time around, and Healing Wish it the second time around and rev it up that way.

Those are all good moves on lopunny, but it doesn't mean lopunny really feels the need to have them all. Encore is generally superior to magic coat because roar and whirlwind are pretty rare in this meta and so are the taunt users that outspeed lopunny (not the actual mons, but the mons with taunt, like floatzel and archeops don't carry it that often). Besides I don't know if you forgot to include substitute or consider it not that useful because of limber, but it is far more essential to lopunny than healing wish or having both magic coat and encore. Subsitute (in combination with encore) is what protects you from all other status making practically every wall so bad against lopunny it has an extremly good chance of being able to set up more than once if it starts doing so against a wall. It also protects you from a couple of things that would otherwise be baton passed to your reciever like leech seed, stat drops and confusion. Substitute is exaclty what let's you baton pass more than one or two stat boosts as it protects you from scald burns and sludge bomb poisons and after one or two cps, there's a great chance a wole lot of those moves won't even be KO'ing your sub. Finaly, substitute can even be baton passed itself which is very useful for whatever receiver to set up it's attack or sp.a.

We can agree to disagree that we value certain moves much more than the other regarding Substitute and Healing Wish, and I'm not saying SubPass is bad for Lopunny. However, I do see Sub as the second most expendable move for it, preceded by Magic Coat (Xatu is a decent recipient anyway). Sub does help block status, but Lopunny is already immune to the one most likely to impede its job (paralysis); burn and poison are honestly just minor annoyances that mildly shorten the amount of time it has to boost, but realistically you only need like 1 or 2 Cosmic Powers before you're set to go anyway. Also are debilitating stat drops and confusion even common lol? Substitute provides decent insurance against status-inflicting attacks like Scald or Sludge Bomb, but only if the Sub survives the hit, and in the moment when you're Cosmic Powering to beef up your Substitute, you may end up getting statused anyway. And yes, I am still accounting the benefit of being able to pass a beefy Substitute to your recipient safely, at Lopunny's expense.

Perhaps you like your CosmicPass strategy to be a bit on the safer / secure side. I, on the other hand, like Lopunny to remain useful / relevant even if it is unable to Pass anymore, and play it in a less conservative manner as a result. After all, when I forgo Substitute on Lopunny and expose it to damaging status, it is replaced by Healing Wish, so it's meant to kamikaze anyway. Lopunny's longevity is really not as big of a deal as you made it out to be.

Evan Edit: Removed the last part of this post because it was unnecessary. I hope im clear when I say DO NOT TRY AND COMMENT ON / DISCREDIT OTHER USERS IN YOUR POST. STICK TO THE OBJECTIVE FACTS

Edit: Evan. ok so I don't actually understand at all why only this particular bit required editing out when it actually contained some of my thoughts and objective facts, whereas some of Sweet Jesus's and my own posts that also jabbed at each other were left in, so I'm just going to repost rephrase this.

Anyway, I could understand lopunny rising only to C, but you clearly haven't tried it and I think it's well deserving of a C+.

Yeah you shouldn't immediately assume someone hasn't used a mon that you've experimented with, since you never know if someone has used it way earlier than you did; 'always a bigger fish' and all that humility stuff and whatnot. Anyway, Lopunny is definitely a unique mon, but it hasn't really changed enough from the last time I used it (which is ages ago) for me to renew my expectations for it.

 

[Deeerpz]

Low effortish post but- What recipients have you guys been using? Passing offensive boosts is a lot more simple and I'm not quite sure what I'd appreciate the defensive boosts on besides something like Xatu maybe. Bulky wisp Zard also? Not looking to detract from any point you've made I'd just like an idea of what kind of teams you're using Lopunny with.

Nasty Plot Jynx with Draining Kiss works wonders (I like being able to recover damage), Life Orb Power Up Punch Hitmonchan is good, I've actually done bulky Power up Punch Zard too, which works if you make an effort out of killing anything that might have rock coverage. Lilligant is also a really obvious one, and I personally like it on Sub Vivillon, though it has no recovery other than Roost which I didn't run cause I wanted Sub/QD/Coverage. Shell Smash Carracosta is hilarious with +6/+6 defenses, too. Xatu honestly works the best in my opinion, having access to Stored Power, Giga Drain, Roost, Calm Mind, and a plethora of useful coverage one can chose to run. If you wanna be cheeky you can run Rampardos who greatly appreciates the artificial bulk while sporting insane attack from the get-go.

Edit: that's only what I've tried so far and what I've come up with in a short amount of time. I'm sure there are superior recipients.

 

[Hootie]

Unranked -> C+

This is a Pokemon that's slept upon so much in this meta. Previously Leafeon was overshadowed by Sceptile as a Swords Dance sweeper, but now it has a niche again and it's a surprisingly good balance breaker with Natural Gift Psychic (Starf Berry), which after a boost and a little prior damage, breaks through common cores such as Garbodor + Steelix, Lanturn + Xatu, Vileplume + Hariyama and so on. It matches up fairly well against certain stall-archetypes too, thanks to being one of the few set up sweepers that can care less about Quagsire. High physical bulk also gives it quite a few opportunities to set up on common 'Mons with little issue, unlike Shiftry, which has to rely on forced switches most of the time. Being self-sufficient is a nice boon as well because it only needs at most a few hazards put up to break past the likes of Weezing / Garbodor. Here's a replay of the Swords Dance set doing work. It has another cool tech option in Baton Pass + Substitute to sacrifice sweeping potential in exchange for being good offensive support that takes advantage of its typing and bulk to get many opportunities to pass a Swords Dance boost possibly a Substitute to ensure the recipient receives the boost unscathed, which gives it some surprise value as well. Given these all of these traits, Leafeon should be ranked reflecting this.

 

[Deeerpz]

I wanna nominate Lanturn for A+/S Rank.
Lanturn in my opinion is and has been one of the most splashable mons in NU for a while. I imagine Sceptile made it a little less of an auto include, but I wasn't around to witness that and it's gone anyway, so Lanturn is free to reign again.
Its just a really, really good mon all around in my experience. Really good typing, superb bulk, the ability to run a stupid amount of viable sets in standard defensive Leftovers, offensive Leftovers, AV, Shuca Lure, Specs, Whirpool Variants, it can be a cleric, run multiple status moves and it's never REALLY going to be a momentum suck because you can either Volt Switch out immediately, cripple opposing mons or hit whatever wants to block volt switches for super effective damage. It's weaknesses are also really, really easily alleviated by proper teambuilding without really being restrictive at all. The above facts make it one of the best and most versatile mons all around. You can fit it into any archetypes and you can never be sure what you're gonna get with a lanturn, while other, higher ranked pokemon usually have more confined options.

Just my 2 cents on the fish, but I think he deserves at least A+

 

[Shadestep]

I wanna nominate Lanturn for A+/S Rank.
Lanturn in my opinion is and has been one of the most splashable mons in NU for a while. I imagine Sceptile made it a little less of an auto include, but I wasn't around to witness that and it's gone anyway, so Lanturn is free to reign again.
Its just a really, really good mon all around in my experience. Really good typing, superb bulk, the ability to run a stupid amount of viable sets in standard defensive Leftovers, offensive Leftovers, AV, Shuca Lure, Specs, Whirpool Variants, it can be a cleric, run multiple status moves and it's never REALLY going to be a momentum suck because you can either Volt Switch out immediately, cripple opposing mons or hit whatever wants to block volt switches for super effective damage. It's weaknesses are also really, really easily alleviated by proper teambuilding without really being restrictive at all. The above facts make it one of the best and most versatile mons all around. You can fit it into any archetypes and you can never be sure what you're gonna get with a lanturn, while other, higher ranked pokemon usually have more confined options.

Just my 2 cents on the fish, but I think he deserves at least A+

hey Deeerpy, I can see where you're coming from with your nomination, but I do have to disagree with you. While Lanturn is a really great Mon in NU, being super splashable, giving a Volt immunity and providing Heal Bell support, it definitely does not fit the criteria of an S-Rank Pokemon.

Threat Level: Lanturn has literally 0 offensive presence at all. The only offensive presence it has is hoping for a scald burn, or doing just a bit over half vs Malamar with Signal Beam. hell, it's not even strong enough to 2HKO Standard 252 / 128 SDef Steelix without a Scald burn, which is not something you should rely on (lol). Lanturn is so weak that things that its supposed to check, like AV Magmortar, can beat the defensive Lanturn set as Scald barely 3HKOs, and if you count in Lanturn switching into a Fire Blast for 25%, then taking 2 EQs while only being able to get of 1/3rd of HP from Magmortar, that definitely doesn't fit the criteria.

As said by NU newest Tier Leader, 'Lanturn only exists to beat other Lanturns.' Now I don't 100% agree with that since Lanturn is a really great and splashable mon, but it doesn't have a strong effect on the metagame and it's definitely not that consistent in checking the things it's supposed to check. Being thoroughly annoyed by hazards + being pressured to Volt Switch out to maintain momentum rather than healing up itself or teammates with Heal Bell, make Lanturn not as efficient as it should be.

anyways, Lanturn is a really solid Pokemon, but I think it fits perfectly in the A_ Rank. I don't mean to flame your post or disrespect your opinion as I really don't and I can understand where you're coming from, but Lanturn's just been kind-of underwhelming to me lately.

e: I know this nom might sound controversial since I nommed Lanturn for A_/A+ before but A_ seems like the right place for it after all

 

[cyanize]

About the Lanturn nomination: I actually intended to post one this weekend , but I was beat to it by Deeerpz. So instead, I'll just build on what's already stated.

Threat Level: Lanturn has literally 0 offensive presence at all. The only offensive presence it has is hoping for a scald burn, or doing just a bit over half vs Malamar with Signal Beam. hell, it's not even strong enough to 2HKO Standard 252 / 128 SDef Steelix without a Scald burn, which is not something you should rely on (lol). Lanturn is so weak that things that its supposed to check, like AV Magmortar, can beat the defensive Lanturn set as Scald barely 3HKOs

I disagree with this statement. You are completely ignoring the increasingly common offensive tank AV set, which even disregarding Scald burns (which in and of themselves can't be counted out that easily) is considerably less passive than you're making it out to be. Even if you consider the Lefties wall set to be vastly superior -- which it isn't -- being able to instantly paralyze and/ or grab momentum on threatening mons such as Abomasnow, Pyroar, Magmortar, Charizard, Samurott, Jynx, Swellow, etc. is far from passive. By this train of thought, practically every wall in NU would be terribly passive, which isn't very true.

it doesn't have a strong effect on the metagame and it's definitely not that consistent in checking the things it's supposed to check.

I'd say that causing Rotom (one of the best mons in the tier) to run a completely different set or forcing Magmortar to run -Def Nature so it can run EQ or causing special LO Samurott to run Megahorn (because what else does it hit besides Jynx and SDef Musharna) or making EVire a viable Electric type choice solely because it has EQ and a high attack stat specifically for Lanturn (let's be real, what does it really do outside of that?) among other things is a considerable effect on the metagame. Lanturn is fully capable of stopping over half a team all by itself due to its excellent typing and movepool, and I think that actively having to have a burn absorber/Lanturn check on my team when building doesn't constitute having no effect on the metagame.
Lanturn not consistently checking what it wants to check is not exactly true (or, in some cases Lanturn's fault as, like previously stated, the meta has adapted specifically TO check it and it STILL 1v1's most of the mons it's supposed to). It flat out beats non-EQ Magmortar, Samurott, Pyroar, Rotom (Normal and Fan), Swellow, non-EQ Zard, Rhydon, Combusken, Floatzel, un boosted Omastar alongside non-Epower variants, Manectric, Poliwrath... being able to 1v1/gain momentum on all of these viable offensive threats and more is definitely A+ rank worthy.

Another thing about Lanturn that hasn't been stated is how much pressure the threat of Scald puts on players. To be honest, it's more so the move itself than the Mon, but since Lanturn gets it there's not harm in putting it out there. Most things in this tier that switch into Scald in this tier are either
-in no way a switchin to Lanturn ( Magmortar, grass types not named Lilligant, Ludicolo, Shiftry, or Cradily)
-weak to Electric (every water type except Quag and Lanturn itself)
-or scared of being burned (physical AV mons, Shiftry, Ferroseed)
This spread of coverage on a supposed passive wall is absolutely ridiculous. This isn't even taking into account the fact that it can click TWave 100% safely since nothing excluded from that list likes TWave except for Ferro, Quag, and Lanturn itself, and the mons that CAN switch into TWave are terrified of Scald.

tl;dr: Lanturn is a very good candidate for A+. It's not passive in the slightest, walls a huge portion of the meta, is ridiculously splashable, causes quite a few things to run moves just to beat it, and on top of that has an extremely low risk/high reward move that it covers almost perfectly.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Check out the new art for the OP by Bummer!

Also, update is coming tomorrow :o

 

[Ren-chon]

Slowpoke from Unranked to C-/C
This might sound like a joke, but damn if this thing can be good in the right circunstances. I've built a team with him mostly as a meme (it had darumaka too, whose Flare Blitz, with +Atk nature and Choice Band, hits as hard as LO Rampardos Head Smash!) and it actually proved to be pretty good at checking random things. The set I'll be covering is the SDef one with Scald / TWave / Slack Off / Filler, as it lets Slowpoke's resists shine as well as its utility, and most of the physical hitters have Knock Off anyway. First of all, the godly Water/Psychic typing coupled with an actually good bulk. It alone lets it at the very least soft check things from the A-Ranks like Tauros, Kangaskhan, Subsless Jynx, Magmortar (TBolt isnt a guaranteed 2HKO), Megahornless Rhydon, Pyroar, Megahornless Samurott, Steelix, Swellow, Archeops, Barbaracle (tanks a +2 SEdge and can para), Zard, Combusken, Floatzel, Ludicolo, Vivillion, Aurorus, Thunder Punchless Hitmonchan, and Omastar. Well, quite an extensive list (there are some "Xless" conditions here and there, I know, but welp).

While Slowpoke SAtk is terrible, meaning it might give some momentum to your opp, it compensates for it to some extent with the dreaded Scald/Thunder Wave combination that can also be coupled with Toxic. Now, why even would I use it over, say, Mantine or Pelipper? 2 reasons: two forms of reliable recovery, and the lack of a SR weakness (I could argue about TWave being a 3rd reason too). It's by no way an overall better choice than these two, but it's a niche pick that can really prove itself, specially since it can tank both Physical and Special hits, unlike the one-sided Water/Flying kacaw duo. Well... I dont have much else to say, so I'll just provide two replays to prove some of my points about slowpoke:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-368655819 Slowpoke crippling Ludicolo, Piloswine and Mesprit
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-nu-154997 Slowpoke being an overall nuisance, as denis' team couldn't even 2HKO it (and he had a specs zard, vileplume and lanturn)

Unfortunately I dont really play this game as much as I'd like to, so I dont have a good amount of replays. Can provide more later tho, will do anything to protect my pink baby :]

Also did you guys know that Darumaka can 2 hit Manaphy with Flare Blitz lol

 

[boltsandbombers]

Rises

Rampardos C- -> C
Metang D -> C-
Mawile C+ -> B-
Lopunny Unranked -> D
Leafeon Unranked -> C

Drops

Flareon C- -> D

The nominations for Quagsire and Rotom-F were both fairly close, so use those two as discussion points for the next round. As usual, the above nomination will be voted upon in the the next update. If you're particularly curious, we did not follow through with the Regirock, Lanturn, Lilligant, and Vivillon nominations.