Hearthstone [IRC Channel #Skillstone]

[Matthew]

Eh I'm struggling this season on my climb. I really enjoy control paladin but I think my list is too over the place and the "normal" list is way too slow. I also like Miracle but Shamans, Shamans everywhere. I remember when Miracle preyed on Shaman. Oh the memories

 

[Acklow]

What's your control pally list so we can compare? I've been playing a lot of control pally too but I've done quite well with my decklist. I have a screenie saved on my laptop but I'll probably wait till tomorrow after work to post it up...

 

[Matthew]

I shouldn't say it's over the place, it's gotten me to rank 3 tonight. I Honestly don't know what exactly is wrong with the deck. Acolyte is bad in faster matchups (which Harvest Golem has been amazing), and I have a lot more DRs to get off of N'zoth. I think it's a piloting issue, and I'm doing really well tonight with thinking all my turns through. I might cut an Infested Tauren for a second Kodo but double Kodo feels so bad given that there is nothing good on five anyway. I considered Harrison but I take my games slow enough that my hand is generally full, and if my hand is empty I've essentially won.

edit: I also feel six 4 drops for Paladin is pretty reasonable. I don't need the other Keeper for control matchups since Justicar will win those for me alone. Early game seems fine so the more I look at this list it's just a piloting issue. That's more than fair since it's not a curve deck and there's a lot to think about. My weaker matchups are for sure Shaman and Rogue but I think I'm favored against everything else (zoo is a 50/50 in my experiences and stats). I'd put Shaman at 30/70 in the Shaman's favor and Rogue at 20/80. I have not lost to a Warrior or Priest.

 

[Acklow]

No keepers of uldaman? Also have you tried running crazed alchemist?

Also I run double kodo because of the pivot it provides.

Senjins over Tauren maybe?

 

[Nova]

Ya this season been tough, don't really feel comfortable with any deck. I guess nzoth pally has been the deck that feels the best for me. This the list I use. Maybe you can use one Swamp Ooze, good vs shaman without having to fear Harrison overdrawing and I guess rogue but that matchup is so bad lol

 

[phil]

dis my list yo, which is still unchanged from last month (legend again today yo)

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Dragon Egg is pretty good. Ideally, if I could be assed to change it I would probably use Gormok over one of the Sea Giants or Doomguards (Leeroy is scrubshit yo) and probably figure out where to fit ye ol' Skill Juggler (Knife not Flame) back in there. Probably over the Elven Archers but it's fun with Egg/IGB, pretty good in the mirror for raw board control (takes care of IGB tokens, second half of Villager/Squire, etc.), and so on. I wouldn't mind my own Crazed Alchemist either, Doomsayer is everywhere right now and it also beats the Frost Nova combo since it doesn't require swinging in.

Even without the Archer synergy Egg is still good on its own though. It's deathrattle-esque in that it protects your board from damage-based AoE, especially the one-damage variety like new asshole on the block Ravaging Ghoul, and leaves a body behind if you buff it to trade into something. On average it's not better than our departed friend Nerubian Egg, but honestly if you get more than one whelp from it from bumping 1/x dudes or getting an Argus on it the power level isn't far off. You can bump the 0/2 for free and it doesn't trade so efficiently then, but most opponents won't bother because it's slow to do and they'd rather force you to have the buffs to make use of it. There's also a ton of 1/x one-drops in the metagame right now that can't bump it in one go either; 2/1 doods are almost extinct outside of Abusive Sergeant and occasionally Fiery Bat.

The problem I have with Dragon Egg (and Archer) is that it's a ridiculous tempo sink in a deck which really needs to start racing out of the blocks because almost every other deck has either early-game minions that instantly need to be addressed (mirror match, Shaman) or lategame minions so good that you need to kill or almost kill them before they come down (Hunter, Warrior, Paladin, Renolock). Nerubian Egg's upside is a 4/4, which is huge especially since you can put the egg on board turn 2 (or coin it out turn 1) and crack it the next turn which brings out a minion above the curve while really punishing AOE with something that needs another full spell to be addressed. Dragon Egg's upside is 4/2 worth of stats, which kinda is "far off" what Nerubian Egg gives you and that's not even guaranteed, since you can't get value by POing it in the same way you can out of Nerubian Egg, plus since it's only a 2/1 people will be much more inclined to ram into the egg and deal with the dragon straightaway, just making it a Voodoo Doctor. It's good at blocking Ravaging Ghoul, I'll give you that, but Ravaging Ghoul kicks your ass anyway and even a 2/1 won't move mountains against it.

I also find the interactions with Elven Archer that you described pretty mediocre. Pinging your own Imp Gang Boss just gives you a couple of 1/1s while pinging 1 health off a pretty impactful minion that really wants to be leveraging its health to get the best trades possible, and while pinging Dragon Egg is good it's still essentially a Bilefin Tidehunter with a 0/1 Dragon Egg sitting around. I realise it's versatile and stuff like that but nothing it does is spectacular and it's an awful turn 1 play. Something like Knife Juggler has a far, far greater upside.

For the record, I cut a Dwarf, the Flame Juggler and the Alchemist (it wasn't quite cutting it) for a Sea Giant, a Gormok and a Soulfire which were all amazing and got me down to rank 84, where I am now.

Control Paladin-wise, I'm really not a fan of "junk" Deathrattles like Infested Tauren and Harvest Golem. Golem is borderline ok to play for mana, but Infested Tauren is kinda really bad unless it's coming out of N'Zoth but realistically you shouldn't be reliant on N'Zoth in control matchups (that's Justicar's job) and just getting back one or two deathrattles, specifically Tirion, will cut it against Midrange, and you rarely even summon N'Zoth against aggro. I don't actually own a Lightrag or a Cairne, but I played the deck at a friend's and went something like 12-1 or 13-1, admittedly between rank 14 and rank 9, with this list which I can't screenshot-

2x Forbidden Healing
1x Humility
2x Equality
2x Doomsayer
2x Wild Pyromancer
1x Acolyte of Pain
2x Aldor Peacekeeper
2x Truesilver Champion
2x Consecration
2x Keeper of Uldaman
1x Corrupted Healbot
1x Harrison Jones
2x Stampeding Kodo
1x Cairne Bloodhoof
1x Justicar Trueheart
1x Sylvanas Windrunner
1x Lay on Hands
1x Ragnaros, Lightlord
1x Ragnaros the Firelord
1x Tirion Fordring
1x N'Zoth, the Corruptor

Healbot is really incredibly good at controlling the midgame, Justicar is a win condition against control, Keepers... idk, I just like them - it's not bad against Aggro to buff up a 1/1 and with Truesilver you have another removal for big threats which is important. Harrison is just good at reloading a bit - you're never really in fear of fatiguing before the opponent outside of matchups like Control Warrior where you're normally just hitting Gorehowl for one. I concur with Matthew about the matchups, though - Warrior is extremely hard to lose to, and Rogue is extremely hard not to lose to. You'll also lose to the mirror match if they play junk Deathrattles, particlarly Faceless Summoner which seems to be a popular choice at rank 11, but you'll have a better matchup against other decks.

 

[astroboy]

No keepers of uldaman? Also have you tried running crazed alchemist?

can atest for crazed alchemist Acklow said, crazed alchemist is great. its got such natural synergy with the deck (think equality, kodo, eadric the pure)

also, what are some decks you all have used to combat zoo? i've found the recent dragon priest deck floating around a really solid counter to it, and warrior gives it a damn good run for its money imo, but i wanna see what you guys think o3o

 

[phil]

I've been playing only Zoo so I haven't been trying to combat it myself but I've found that by far my toughest matchup is Tempo Warrior, purely because of how good Ravaging Ghoul is. Control Warrior isn't great because its AOE isn't cheap enough, but Tempo has 2/3 super cheap AOEs which just eat Zoo up, not to mention board control cards like Weaponsmith and Fierce Monkey. Dragon Priest's probably a good choice too - I only played it once but kinda got smashed, too many taunts.

 

[Acklow]

Gonna be honest I don't run Doomsayers in control pally because they suck lol. With alchemist becoming prevalent as a counter, and sayers being counterintuitive to how pally wants to control the board (i.e. Via strong pivots that answer your opponents plays by neutering threats), I find it impossible to include them in any given match-up. I'm more inclined to run senjins and uldamans. Even a steward for the justice upgrade synergy. I'll try harvest golem to see if it works though.

 

[Matthew]

I included the junk-rattles because it really does give me a chance at beating heavy aggro, specifically I added the Tauren and Golem to counter Shaman and giving me more board other than the 1/1s. I wouldn't say they're incredibly useful in other matchups but I do think they help against Tempo Warrior as well.

 

[Mr.E]

The problem I have with Dragon Egg (and Archer) is that it's a ridiculous tempo sink in a deck which really needs to start racing out of the blocks because almost every other deck has either early-game minions that instantly need to be addressed (mirror match, Shaman) or lategame minions so good that you need to kill or almost kill them before they come down (Hunter, Warrior, Paladin, Renolock). Nerubian Egg's upside is a 4/4, which is huge especially since you can put the egg on board turn 2 (or coin it out turn 1) and crack it the next turn which brings out a minion above the curve while really punishing AOE with something that needs another full spell to be addressed. Dragon Egg's upside is 4/2 worth of stats, which kinda is "far off" what Nerubian Egg gives you and that's not even guaranteed, since you can't get value by POing it in the same way you can out of Nerubian Egg, plus since it's only a 2/1 people will be much more inclined to ram into the egg and deal with the dragon straightaway, just making it a Voodoo Doctor. It's good at blocking Ravaging Ghoul, I'll give you that, but Ravaging Ghoul kicks your ass anyway and even a 2/1 won't move mountains against it.

I also find the interactions with Elven Archer that you described pretty mediocre. Pinging your own Imp Gang Boss just gives you a couple of 1/1s while pinging 1 health off a pretty impactful minion that really wants to be leveraging its health to get the best trades possible, and while pinging Dragon Egg is good it's still essentially a Bilefin Tidehunter with a 0/1 Dragon Egg sitting around. I realise it's versatile and stuff like that but nothing it does is spectacular and it's an awful turn 1 play. Something like Knife Juggler has a far, far greater upside.

For the record, I cut a Dwarf, the Flame Juggler and the Alchemist (it wasn't quite cutting it) for a Sea Giant, a Gormok and a Soulfire which were all amazing and got me down to rank 84, where I am now.

Dragon Egg is no more of a tempo sink than Nerubian Egg or any of the other sticky minions of the past. Arguably less since it only costs one mana, granted everything except the other Egg has an actual Attack stat. Zoo has never really been about "racing out of the blocks," despite sometimes being able to and needing to try in certain matchups. It's a board control deck that relies on minions buffing each other to build an overwhelming board presence. That requires keeping something on the board, which Dragon Egg does in a similar vein to deathrattles. Dragon Egg isn't Nerubian Egg, of course, but NE doesn't exist in Standard so sacrifices must be made. DE does only cost 1 mana, so general best-case ("4/2 worth of stats" that punishes 1-damage AoE) is arguably better than NE.

Elven Archer I'm not going to seriously defend, although it's not horrible, but pinging Dragon Egg is a one-mana (the important part) Murloc Tidehunter that also leaves the Egg intact. It's pretty sick at enabling early Sea Giant plays too since on Egg/IGB it literally gains you mana. The ping is pretty strong in aggro matchups though.

On N'Zoth, Infested Tauren may be "junk" (although I think it's better than people are giving it credit) but it's one of the only taunts you can pull out of the graveyard with N'Zoth. Tirion is obviously Paladin-restricted and, well, it's better than Chillmaw outside of a Dragon deck.

 

[Nova]

I was actually playing the list Chakki won Dreamhack with and swapped out Justicar and Spellbreaker for the 1 Harvest Golem and 1 Infested Tauren after spectating Matthew for awhile and got inspried. The list felt strong except I was getting overrun by aggro decks if I didn't draw early Pyro/Equality/Consecration. Having those cards gave me a little more fight on the board early. The deck feels so strong on paper and almost unbeatable (except v Rogue) but when I actually play it, it just feels a little bit off. Maybe I'm just not good at piloting decks that actually require skill BrokeBack

 

[Acklow]

While this list is a little outdated to what I currently run, this is a rough outline of how my deck is built. Currently I run 2x Forbidden healing over A Light In The Darkness and N'Zoth over 1 Argent Squire. While running 3x 1-drops may seem contradictory to control, they actually fare pretty well as a way of maintaining early board control. While Heroes may seem kinda bad vs Mage or vs Hunter/Zoo, they actually act as a great deterrent leading into the Turn 2 play of tapping and sacking the Hero to gain basically a free Argent Squire and momentum going into turns 3-4. They also stack with Steward, allowing for a solid turn 4 play, AND they can revive w/Nzoth, guaranteeing you that if the opponent decides to clear Slyv or Tyrion - not shown along w/Nzoth because big deck is big- (the only 2 deathrattles I run in this deck other than stewards), you gain back any lost momentum. I actually have yet to see a strong N'zoth play with this deck, as most of the time I can do well without, so you could probably run one of A Light In The Darkness, Argent Squire, Humility, Argent Protector, or even Stand Against the Darkness (for the lols).

I am also testing out Matthew's build with a little twist of my own: i.e. 2x Humility's over 1x Squire and 1x Steward, 1x Crazed Alchemists instead of 1x Harry Ford, and 2x Harvest Golems over 2x Heroes. I don't see any reason to run Rag Firelord because while he is a great minion in his own right, he just doesn't fill any particular niche that my deck wants to fill, though with this update, he may be more legitimate than Nzoth. I do see some combos w/Steward and Golem though (sacking golem to activate steward's ability in order to make an extremely sticky board) so I may toss her back in, drop the humilities and bring back the two heroes.

 

[Matthew]

Alright after losing a lot today playing Freeze Mage I went back to my Paladin list and the more I play it the more I'm almost still thinking it's a piloting issue. There isn't anything wrong with my list, and for the most part I'm curved right, have an end-game plan, can handle mid-game, and aggro. I think the deck really struggles with not getting early game removal (though you don't really want to use Conc or EQ early), but that just furthers my placement of Doomsayer. I mean when you think about it this deck survives the early game, can heal for 40+, and wins late game. It might be the best deck in the game if there is a good pilot to it.

On the other-hand it might be trying to do so much that it's inconsistent and that's really it's folly. I'm more on the side of the piloting issue; when I'm on point with this deck I do not lose. Simple as that.

edit:
I'm speaking to all control paladin lists (as there is no refined list at the moment and there might not be) about being the best and hardest deck to play.

 

[TheValkyries]

Matthew I really like your list but I feel like what you're talking about with consistency is why most lists carry 1 or even 2 solemn vigils. If I were to tinker I'd look at maybe dropping 1 of either harvest golem or infested Tauren for 1 vigil or dropping Trusticar even? While good I'm not in love with the hero power buff and the draw power might be more necessary given that otherwise your only other draw power is a turn 8 lay on hands.

 

[Omega-Xis]

Ranger Mike

Are you feeling it now, Mr. Krabs?

]

Had me like

Also trying out this crazy Reno N'Zoth Hunter concoction with Sir Finley, been cool playing Control Hunter with a Control Hero Power rather than an Aggro one. Just testing, haven't tried it out on Ranked yet but it's went alright so far.

 

[Acklow]

Try maly hunter. Willing to provide updated decklist if you would like.

 

[Acklow]

Here's decklist. Maly is at the very bottom. At this point, only tech card in here is Hogger. Every other card is ABSOLUTELY necessary in order to win (arguably Lock n Load can be taken out for Flare, but that's only if you start seeing Secret Paladin going rampant for some odd reason or if Secrets Hunter takes off and becomes superpopular or smth). Ideally you want to have Maly and an Arcane Shot/On the Hunt/Quick Shot or two in your hand (best case scenario you get three arcane shots/on the hunts via locknload which I got one game hehe). Lock n Load can be used in combination w/thaurissan or without tbh. Sometimes even two procs of LnL is enough to get what you need. You could probably drop one copy of UtH for another Powershot or even Explosive trap for the Maly synergy, but I think 2 copies is necessary to keep up with aggro and also gives you extra damage in the case that one hound lives. Call of the Wild is great, but I don't think 2 copies are necessary due to the steep curve of the deck and a lack of card draw (this is why Hogger is there, since he can be pulled by Elekk pretty easily). While I did contemplate putting Reno in there, I just don't think he works well in this deck as you need multiple copies of spells in order to efficiently set up board clears (which hunter has plenty of). I suppose you could put Baron Geddon in instead of Hogger (I don't own him), so that you can clear whenever you drop him or even throw a Dreadscale in, though if you do put the latter in, you risk losing Elekk pulls, which you want to be always winning with the high-cost minions in the deck bar Finley/other Elekks. You could also tech in Auctioneer for card Draw, but after testing it myself in a couple games, it just didn't hold up well enough in a deck demanding efficiency.

Mulligans are a little harder. I would recommend holding onto Thaurissan if you have Coin and you are up against a control matchup/druid. If you are up vs Mage or Aggro, you want Finley, an Elekk, or Bear Trap in your opening hand. Eaglehorn Bow is good too, but do not waste charges of it if you can help it and especially be careful playing around high damage minions because you do not want to be taking a lot of face damage, since Alex is literally your only form of surviving. This deck has a lot of boardclear potential, so if you are up against a warlock deck or a shaman deck, you want to hold onto your Powershot/Explosive Trap/UtH. Don't be afraid to use Arcane Shots or On the Hunts to kill off weak minions/combo with hunter's mark to clear big minions, but make sure to have at least two of these 1mana spells available if you did not get Thaurissan off successfully.

Ultimately, this deck shines in the Mirror vs Midrange/Aggro hunter, as it has the tools to deal with it. It has a harder time vs. Control Pally/Freeze Mage, as those have tools to delay the lategame or to prevent lethal with Maly spells. It's a fun deck to play though, and especially satisfying to take out an opponent sitting confidently at 20 HP in a single turn.

 

[the pugilist]

why are you not running tracking? seems insane in this deck - if ur looking for something specific its more or less a one mana draw 3 and is really good with lock and load (can you not afford a second copy or something). would probably cut the honker for sure since he seems so out of place, the deck CAN trigger him but it doesnt look amazing at it. Plus ur other targets (besides the 2nd elekk) seem super important for comboing off and having a random honker kidna dilutes that.

 

[Acklow]

Yeah, my only issue with Tracking is that you could draw into Malygos and thaurissan when you need both for the combo and only drawing a specific card from those 3 without resetting the deck really hurts its potential. I suppose you could run it without actually playing it until you get one of those two in your hand. I'll do some testing to see how good that is.

 

[Oopa]

Does anyone play miracle/malyrogue? Been having fun around rank5 getting the best deals anywhere, and also cos i'm a rogue fanboy who can't complete many other decks.

 

[Acklow]

You can never have too many Highmane.

 

[ryan]

I saw dog playing sjow's miracle nzoth list, looks really strong. more mid-range-y than leeroy lists, which makes it overall more consistent. trading out the burst is ok because a huge nzoth turn isnt much different except for brawl and eq conc rly. eq conc clears hard tho bc all the deathrattles have draw attached to them (xaril, tomb pillager, cuckster) except for journey which still doesnt guarantee to leave anything behind. still, pally isn't too common, and warrior is split on tempo/control. don't have the list handy, but it was basically standard miracle with double pillager + xaril, huckster, journeys, and nzoth over burst package. gadget is still good even though you arent drawing into burst combo because your deathrattles lend themselves very well to drawing off it. seemed a lil weak to tempo warrior if they rip war axe but generally strong outside of that.

 

[SgtWoodsy]

WHY DIDN'T YOU BUY A FUNNEL CAKE, MAGE

 

[astroboy]

dont really got the time for a long, detailed post but heres some general thoughts ive got

control warrior is amazing tbh.
has a good matchup versus patron and freeze mage, and if u opt for more board control cards like geddon or cleave you have a pretty good matchup vs zoo aswell (which is huge in this meta)

also geddon is a great anti-meta card. stops totem shaman from getting out of control, helps take the board back from zoo and discourages warlock from tapping too much. also really benefits from the lack of removal in the meta.

also: pls run alchemist on zoo so u can punish those people who rely on doomsayer to control board early game !_!