[DONE] JOHTO CLASSIC - Post your results!

Hmm, that is... not what I was expecting, to say the least. I just cannot see why you wouldn't run Machamp instead; they're basically the same except Heracross is hella lot more stressful to use thanks to Stone Edge's somewhat unreliable accuracy and because 100% accurate Dynamic Punch > Close Combat imo. The only thing I see it really having over Champ is the ability to beat Espeon and Alakazam thanks to Pin Missile ( 99% of the time just 2 hits are enough) both of which are pretty common sash leads and that just demolish Machamp 1 on 1 thanks to the aforementioned Focus Sash that they're usually holding.

To be honest, though, this is not even that big of a deal. I'm just genuinely curious to know what are people doing with it because I've rarely even seen it in the ladder ( although I haven't played much, if at all, in the last couple of days—maybe it got more popular later on). So yup, I'd love to see those replays if you don't mind sharing.
It busts Sash'd Psychic mons, yes, but a lot of it is that Heracross is much faster (max Speed ScarfChamp hits about 105 base Speed; falling short of Gengar and such), Close Combat hits even harder than Dynamicpunch, and Guts is also a factor. AV Machamp is crushed under WoW, as is ScarfChamp. Lum Champ can eat a WoW, but only once, and loses the bulk of AV and the Speed of Scarf. Heracross, burning it only makes it angry, and a +1 Heracross is very difficult to stomach if you aren't a Granbull. Heracross also smashes down Machamp by virtue of superior Speed and defensive typing. :P
Scarf Heracross is also amusingly good against Rain teams. I ran it a lot in Doubles, but not in this competition yet. Very, very unsure if I want Champ or Hera though. They're both great.
 

Demantoid

APMS Founder
is a Top Tiering Contributor
I used a Heracross with Choice Band for a while. It is one of the most powerful wall breakers capable of 2hkoing Skarmory and Suicune. It also breaks Slowbro/Chansey and other defensive cores. Basically anything offensive gets ohkoed. I think it was part of the team I laddered DemantoidAlt with a while ago.
 
It busts Sash'd Psychic mons, yes, but a lot of it is that Heracross is much faster (max Speed ScarfChamp hits about 105 base Speed; falling short of Gengar and such), Close Combat hits even harder than Dynamicpunch, and Guts is also a factor. AV Machamp is crushed under WoW, as is ScarfChamp. Lum Champ can eat a WoW, but only once, and loses the bulk of AV and the Speed of Scarf. Heracross, burning it only makes it angry, and a +1 Heracross is very difficult to stomach if you aren't a Granbull. Heracross also smashes down Machamp by virtue of superior Speed and defensive typing. :P
Scarf Heracross is also amusingly good against Rain teams. I ran it a lot in Doubles, but not in this competition yet. Very, very unsure if I want Champ or Hera though. They're both great.
Yeah, that makes sense. Lets be real, though; what is even running Will-O-Wisp besides defensive Arcanine? For real. I think Paralysis is far more common since speed control seems to be more valuable from what I've experienced. Btw I swear to god I am really not trying to make a case for Machamp, so lets just put that to rest.
 
Hmm, that is... not what I was expecting, to say the least. I just cannot see why you wouldn't run Machamp instead; they're basically the same except Heracross is hella lot more stressful to use thanks to Stone Edge's somewhat unreliable accuracy and because 100% accurate Dynamic Punch > Close Combat imo. The only thing I see it really having over Champ is the ability to beat Espeon and Alakazam thanks to Pin Missile ( 99% of the time just 2 hits are enough) both of which are pretty common sash leads and that just demolish Machamp 1 on 1 thanks to the aforementioned Focus Sash that they're usually holding.

To be honest, though, this is not even that big of a deal. I'm just genuinely curious to know what are people doing with it because I've rarely even seen it in the ladder ( althou. Pgh I haven't played much, if at all, in the last couple of days—maybe it got more popular later on). So yup, I'd love to see those replays if you don't mind sharing.
I'll post some replays when I get home. Obviously Machamp is great and you're right that relying on stone edge's bad accuracy makes Heracross risky to use against those threats. Machamp also benefits from having a priority move in Bullet punch.

Heracross far out speeds him and can be excused most of the time for lacking priority. He also has higher special defense and very minor deficits in HP and Defense. I find his major threats want to hit him with special attacks anyways so that works out. He also has Guts, which allows him to get a devastating boost to attack when afflicted with very common burn or poison that would otherwise cripple Machamp. Opponents seem to forget about guts all the time and set themselves up to be knocked out by an attack that may not have otherwise on a turn they could have just attack him outright and maybe ko'ed him. In that way he seems to sometimes score an easy 'free knock out' and boost on things that shouldn't have lost to him.

Truthfully I started using Heracross because I already had her fully trained and comp ready. Also Heracross is my favorite Pokemon. I have been overly satisfied with her performance, more so than any other member of my team because I can basically always count on her for at least one ko, usually more after that.
 
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I am spending the day tweaking my team.

I am using


Piloswine
Ability: Thick Fat
Nature: Adamant
Item: Eviolite
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Move-set:
  • Ice Shard
  • Earthquake
  • Avalanche
  • Body Slam

I know most sets are running Icicle Crash, However, Avalanche has more power if Piloswine is hit before using the attack, which at 50 base speed it usually does.

Now I am thinking that Body Slam has 30% chance to paralyze, so Avalanche is back to a base 60 attack.

I like the better accuracy with Avalanche, but if accuracy is my only concern I could just use Ice Fang, 65 base and 95 accuracy, plus 10% to freeze/flinch.

I guess I could have shortened this and just asked, what move-set would be best for Piloswine in this format?
 
Hmm, that is... not what I was expecting, to say the least. I just cannot see why you wouldn't run Machamp instead; they're basically the same except Heracross is hella lot more stressful to use thanks to Stone Edge's somewhat unreliable accuracy and because 100% accurate Dynamic Punch > Close Combat imo. The only thing I see it really having over Champ is the ability to beat Espeon and Alakazam thanks to Pin Missile ( 99% of the time just 2 hits are enough) both of which are pretty common sash leads and that just demolish Machamp 1 on 1 thanks to the aforementioned Focus Sash that they're usually holding.

To be honest, though, this is not even that big of a deal. I'm just genuinely curious to know what are people doing with it because I've rarely even seen it in the ladder ( although I haven't played much, if at all, in the last couple of days—maybe it got more popular later on). So yup, I'd love to see those replays if you don't mind sharing.
Here some of the replays. You can always just look me up on PS and watch a bunch more, I've posted a lot in this tier. Let me know what you think.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377139059 --- Heracross takes a flamethrower to the face and then ko's Nidoking.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377133450 --- Heracross benefits from Guts boost after Gengar burns
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377130164
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377109574 --- Heracross cleans up Zapdos & Dragonite's mess, takes down Dragonite and Machamp.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377086538 --- Heracross counters DD/Outrage Dragonite (many other examples of this)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377082106 --- Heracross counters Belly Drum Azumarill (many other examples of this)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377074211 --- Heracross eats a Discharge + Heatwave and still KO's Zapdos, while paralyzed
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-376899340 --- Heracross saves my butt after bad calls, takes down Lapras + Nidoking and knock off Scizor
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-376892303 --- Heracross checks choice specs Starmie, prevents Weezing from stalling

There are so many more examples but these are pretty good ones I think.
 

Demantoid

APMS Founder
is a Top Tiering Contributor
I am spending the day tweaking my team.

I am using


Piloswine
Ability: Thick Fat
Nature: Adamant
Item: Eviolite
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Move-set:
  • Ice Shard
  • Earthquake
  • Avalanche
  • Body Slam

I know most sets are running Icicle Crash, However, Avalanche has more power if Piloswine is hit before using the attack, which at 50 base speed it usually does.

Now I am thinking that Body Slam has 30% chance to paralyze, so Avalanche is back to a base 60 attack.

I like the better accuracy with Avalanche, but if accuracy is my only concern I could just use Ice Fang, 65 base and 95 accuracy, plus 10% to freeze/flinch.

I guess I could have shortened this and just asked, what move-set would be best for Piloswine in this format?
I actually thought most Piloswine were running Avalanche or Icicle Spear. Avalanche has negative priority so it will still almost always go after opponents.
 
I am spending the day tweaking my team.

I am using


Piloswine
Ability: Thick Fat
Nature: Adamant
Item: Eviolite
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Move-set:
  • Ice Shard
  • Earthquake
  • Avalanche
  • Body Slam

I know most sets are running Icicle Crash, However, Avalanche has more power if Piloswine is hit before using the attack, which at 50 base speed it usually does.

Now I am thinking that Body Slam has 30% chance to paralyze, so Avalanche is back to a base 60 attack.

I like the better accuracy with Avalanche, but if accuracy is my only concern I could just use Ice Fang, 65 base and 95 accuracy, plus 10% to freeze/flinch.

I guess I could have shortened this and just asked, what move-set would be best for Piloswine in this format?
I've seen a lot of people running Ice Shard|EQ|Fissure/Freeze-Dry|Icicle Crash/Stealth Rock. Fissure grabs the the kill on fat 'mons that Piloswine wouldn't otherwise be able to take down; Freeze-Dry is more of a gimmicky to catch Gyarados and Quagsire, both of which just absolutely love to switch into Piloswine thinking they hard wall it ( worth noting that the latter also risks getting KO'd by Fissure ).

---------
Eightfoldpath - I'll be watching those, much appreciated.
 
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Eisenherz

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Here some of the replays. You can always just look me up on PS and watch a bunch more, I've posted a lot in this tier. Let me know what you think.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377139059 --- Heracross takes a flamethrower to the face and then ko's Nidoking.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377133450 --- Heracross benefits from Guts boost after Gengar burns
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377130164
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377109574 --- Heracross cleans up Zapdos & Dragonite's mess, takes down Dragonite and Machamp.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377086538 --- Heracross counters DD/Outrage Dragonite (many other examples of this)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377082106 --- Heracross counters Belly Drum Azumarill (many other examples of this)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-377074211 --- Heracross eats a Discharge + Heatwave and still KO's Zapdos, while paralyzed
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-376899340 --- Heracross saves my butt after bad calls, takes down Lapras + Nidoking and knock off Scizor
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-376892303 --- Heracross checks choice specs Starmie, prevents Weezing from stalling

There are so many more examples but these are pretty good ones I think.
That was a joy to watch, may I ask what your EV spread is? Seeing as it took that Flamethrower really well, I assume it has some defensive investment? I'm currently running a scarfed Heracross myself.

I guess I could have shortened this and just asked, what move-set would be best for Piloswine in this format?
I've been running Avalanche - Ice Shard - EQ - Roar/Stealth Rock/Toxic. Still haven't decided on that last move, all 3 have been useful at times. Roar prevents Azu from belly drumming on you, and will sometimes take the Smeargle pain away. Stealth Rock, while usually not too good in 3v3, really helps to break Dragonite's multiscale and the common sashes. Toxic is wonderful against Quagsire. Fissure is surely viable as well, I'm just not a fan of OHKO moves, too much RNG.
 
I was unaware that Avalanche had a -4 speed priority.

The 4th move slot still looks like a tossup. I do like Roar, since I have another Pokémon with Roar also, was thinking mainly about getting that DD Dragonite or BD Azumarill off the field as much as possible.

So Maybe Stealth Rock would work along with my other Roar user to create synergy.

Thanks guys.
 
I was unaware that Avalanche had a -4 speed priority.

The 4th move slot still looks like a tossup. I do like Roar, since I have another Pokémon with Roar also, was thinking mainly about getting that DD Dragonite or BD Azumarill off the field as much as possible.

So Maybe Stealth Rock would work along with my other Roar user to create synergy.

Thanks guys.
 

cant say

twitch.tv/jakecantsay
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I am spending the day tweaking my team.

I am using


Piloswine
Ability: Thick Fat
Nature: Adamant
Item: Eviolite
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Move-set:
  • Ice Shard
  • Earthquake
  • Avalanche
  • Body Slam

I know most sets are running Icicle Crash, However, Avalanche has more power if Piloswine is hit before using the attack, which at 50 base speed it usually does.

Now I am thinking that Body Slam has 30% chance to paralyze, so Avalanche is back to a base 60 attack.

I like the better accuracy with Avalanche, but if accuracy is my only concern I could just use Ice Fang, 65 base and 95 accuracy, plus 10% to freeze/flinch.

I guess I could have shortened this and just asked, what move-set would be best for Piloswine in this format?
Drop Body Slam for either Stealth Rock, Fissure, or Freeze-Dry. The latter will want a Relaxed nature though.
 
No surprises whatsoever among the top 10, but why is Heracross so high up, and moreover: above Machamp? Could anyone tell me what exactly does it do to justify its usage? I'm guessing Scarf? Breaking subs ( Specially Zam's and Espeon's ) and Focus Sash with Pin Missile? Is that it? If not then I'm at loss here.
Another reason I can see is Machamp is out sped by Smeargle. So unless you run Scarf, you're screwed.

With Heracross, you have the flexibility to run lum berry and blast any Smeargle lead plus you can use Knock Off if you suspect the Espeon switch in.

It also does bad things to most of the bulky normal types in this meta game due to Guts and his great speed tier.

I suppose Machamp is better though if you just must have the confuse hax.
So, let me see if I understand this correctly: Lets say I have a smeargle who uses Quiver Dance to boost his SpAtk, SpDef, and Spe by one stage. He then uses Baton Pass to bring in Espeon, who now has +1 to SpAtk, SpDef and Spe. Lets say the Foe is an Unaware Quag who protects this turn for whatever reason (doesn't really matter for this example). Next turn, Espeon uses Stored Power: Because of the passed boosts, Stored Power has its base power increased from 20 to 80, due to the 3 positive boosts to Espeon's stats (source). Stored power also gains STAB for Espeon. This damage output is what will hit Unaware mons. In the absense of Unaware you would also multiply any boosting modifiers, such as the +1 to SpAtk. Therefore, in summary, Stored Power Espeon can still be considered a threat even against Unaware mon's. Fascinating. This gives the Power Herb, Geomancy build more viability over the Quiver Dance build against Unaware mons. I wonder if Haze or Clear Smog would lower Stored Powers BP. I guess it depends if the game acknowledges that the boosts have been removed, as opposed to simply being ignored, which is what I think Unaware does.
Haze does remove the power from it what I've found on my test battles(as long as you Haze first), but I still have to look into Magic Bounce.

I assume it does in that case as well since it resets the stats of every mon on the field, the only issue then is speed.
 
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How do you counter SubCM Raikou and SubCM Suicune? I'm having a hard time against Subtitute setters :/ what pokes are good with whirlwind/roar against those? Or good at walling/stalling them out, they do have PRessure though which is troublesome.
 
How do you counter SubCM Raikou and SubCM Suicune? I'm having a hard time against Subtitute setters :/ what pokes are good with whirlwind/roar against those? Or good at walling/stalling them out, they do have PRessure though which is troublesome.
QD + Bug Buzz Venomoth rips right through them, Encore / Trick are always funny, and as mentioned before Perish Song is uncounterable; Suicune/Raikou are no exception. I know Heracross already owns an entire page of this thread but it also tears them in half via Pin Missle and Bullet Seed.
Donphan eats Raikou, and Venusaur can generally stall them both. Raichu has Lightningrod for Raikou, and can use Encore while also threatening Suicune.
 
I dare not quote anyone as this discussion has been going on a while, but Confusion (as a status) is worth a bit due to the generally high attack stats of Pokemon in this competition, specifically the top two threats- Dragonite and Azumarill, who will set up.
 
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Eisenherz

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I'm facing a dilemma with my team and I was hoping to get you guys' opinion on it. For most of my preparation, my team ran standard Belly Drum Azumarill and Choice Band Entei. Azu is my only setup sweeper, while Entei can wallbreak through Chansey, Clefable, Porygon2, etc. with banded Sacred Fire.

After reading the praise for banded Azumarill in this format, I decided to try it, and gave an Assault Vest to Entei instead. While I am really loving the banded Azu and do agree it is in general superior, Entei is far less of an asset without that band and it's now struggling to handle Chansey and Porygon2 too well. Azu can do work against them, but it puts a lot more weight on its shoulders.

In any case, my mind is set on using these 2 Pokemon, so my dilemma is really only about the item usage. Is it worth sacrificing some of Entei's power and utility to make Azu even more of a threat? Thanks in advance for your feedback, if any!
 
Hey guys, can anyone prove some last minute advice before the competition gets underway tonight? My Eviolite Pilowine's last move; having a hard time between Stealth Rock and Toxic. The former can break Sturdy/Sashes and negates Multiscale on Dnite but I will then have no recourse against Stall tactics like Quagsire.

If you care to, please look me up on Showdown, I have a few replays up there you can critique (please note that I go by Killerwatt on there). Much appreciated and good luck to everyone tonight!
 
Hey guys, can anyone prove some last minute advice before the competition gets underway tonight? My Eviolite Pilowine's last move; having a hard time between Stealth Rock and Toxic. The former can break Sturdy/Sashes and negates Multiscale on Dnite but I will then have no recourse against Stall tactics like Quagsire.

If you care to, please look me up on Showdown, I have a few replays up there you can critique (please note that I go by Killerwatt on there). Much appreciated and good luck to everyone tonight!
I was told to go with Stealth Rock, but in testing on Battle Spot I found I was missing Roar more than I thought I would.

I had Umbreon max out Double Team and there was nothing I could do because I took Roar off. So many other people setup on me because I had no way to remove those setups.
 

Eisenherz

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I was told to go with Stealth Rock, but in testing on Battle Spot I found I was missing Roar more than I thought I would.

I had Umbreon max out Double Team and there was nothing I could do because I took Roar off. So many other people setup on me because I had no way to remove those setups.
If you have no other way to phaze such setup, I would say definitely go with Roar. I don't know the rest of your team, but stuff like Taunt, Encore and Perish Song could help you deal with that as well.
 
If you have no other way to phaze such setup, I would say definitely go with Roar. I don't know the rest of your team, but stuff like Taunt, Encore and Perish Song could help you deal with that as well.
My team mainly has Roar users, although I noticed getting stalled more after removing Piloswine's Roar. I tend to use Piloswine more than my other Roar users, so the switch to Stealth Rock completely crippled what my Piloswine was doing, which was basically stopping setups since most people seem to think I was setting up Stealth Rocks with Piloswine, so they lead with their setup. When the were Roar'd away it put the battle into my favor.
 
I was told to go with Stealth Rock, but in testing on Battle Spot I found I was missing Roar more than I thought I would.

I had Umbreon max out Double Team and there was nothing I could do because I took Roar off. So many other people setup on me because I had no way to remove those setups.
Good idea. I don't think I ever won against CMCune or Clefable since I no way to negate their setups. Roar might be what I end up going with after all.
 
I'm facing a dilemma with my team and I was hoping to get you guys' opinion on it. For most of my preparation, my team ran standard Belly Drum Azumarill and Choice Band Entei. Azu is my only setup sweeper, while Entei can wallbreak through Chansey, Clefable, Porygon2, etc. with banded Sacred Fire.

After reading the praise for banded Azumarill in this format, I decided to try it, and gave an Assault Vest to Entei instead. While I am really loving the banded Azu and do agree it is in general superior, Entei is far less of an asset without that band and it's now struggling to handle Chansey and Porygon2 too well. Azu can do work against them, but it puts a lot more weight on its shoulders.

In any case, my mind is set on using these 2 Pokemon, so my dilemma is really only about the item usage. Is it worth sacrificing some of Entei's power and utility to make Azu even more of a threat? Thanks in advance for your feedback, if any!
Not worth it. Assault Vest is just a toss up on Entei, really: mediocre SpD at best, so it doesn't do much for it and it'll still get KO'd/2HKO'd by the very same things while missing out on a ton of power. For example, you lose the 1 on 1 against Modest!Nidoking if you're holding Assault Vest instead of Choice Band, unless you're heavily investing in bulk, in which case you might as well just stop using Entei altogether.

With Assault Vest:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 182-218 (95.7 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 108-127 (69.2 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With Choice Band:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 273-322 (143.6 - 169.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 160-189 (102.5 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sure, Azumarill can take it out with a Choice-Band Aqua Jet but at the same time it becomes a liability because if you're locked into anything but, this thing can simply tear your entire core apart. And this is just one example I could think of off the top of my head, there are plenty more I'm sure. Choice Band Azul is nice, but Entei would appreciate it a lot more imo.
 
That was a joy to watch, may I ask what your EV spread is? Seeing as it took that Flamethrower really well, I assume it has some defensive investment? I'm currently running a scarfed Heracross myself.
No defensive investment beyond 31 IV's! That's just his natural bulk! My spread is 252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP. I run Focus Sash myself. I'm glad you enjoyed the replays!
 
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