Gen VII: Pokémon Sun and Moon (New info Post #5834)

[Norne]

Even the Pokéwood was fun and entertaining.

B2W2 were simply too good, best games of the entire franchise for SURE.

Yes that's what I meant with thematic battles, turn order, decisions for scripts and a nice spin in how the battle mechanics where played.

It was really fun, a bit tedious when it is first introduced but as optional content it was really fun, also top hat wailord and top hat cane snivy/Jellicent.

Then we had N seasonal battles, the largest amount of superboss battles for daily and seasonal...

Seriously, how on earth people still say gen 2 and it's remakes were better than this freaking post-game masterpiece.

I understand people love for Platinum since that game saved a bland generation filled with ingame mistakes(yeh I know DP gave us wifi but seriously they sucked, and no walking Pokémon and almost as barren Kanto as the original don't save a game even if the e4 rewatchers where good), Platinum made everything better and I can understand the praise it gets as ingame challenges are always fun there with some roadblock trainers and interesting battles happening here and there ruining nuzzies and other like them thanks to the devs giving them actual teams to some route "bosses" players, heck Platinum deserves it's praise as much as the 5th gen since both improved everything we knew about Pokémon but what game is your favorite can be boiled down to personal preferences.

Sigh I seriously hope Alola has some of that magic.

 

[Lady Vader]

It was really fun, a bit tedious when it is first introduced but as optional content it was really fun, also top hat wailord and top hat cane snivy/Jellicent...no walking Pokémon and almost as barren Kanto as the original

Top hat and cane Jellicent is always amazing.
There were walking Pokémon in DP (Amity Square) and it is nowhere near as barren as Kanto. Gen I Kanto had Mewtwo. DP Sinnoh had the Battle Area, the Battle Tower, and a larger number of legends.

 

[Norne]

Top hat and cane Jellicent is always amazing.
There were walking Pokémon in DP (Amity Square) and it is nowhere near as barren as Kanto. Gen I Kanto had Mewtwo. DP Sinnoh had the Battle Area, the Battle Tower, and a larger number of legends.

My bad, it was a statement aside. Punctuation ruined the meaning. I was talking about how people think walking Pokémon in HGSS saved the generation or is the biggest thing every, they also think that the poorsman Kanto from HGSS is superior to 3 side quests Kanto from GSC, they didn't improve it, it's completely the same barren Kanto as GSC.

"No walking Pokémon and almost as barren Kanto as the original"

I worded it poorly but I'm referring to the remakes of gen 2 being objectively inferior to DP as their eye candy and extra region somehow overshadowed the fact that they didn't solve the leveling issues of Jotho nor fixed how barren Kanto is. When compared to PT fixing nearly every issue in DP.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

You should have, they are even better than Platinum for challenge ingame runs, they are the only games that expanded upon post-game leaving GSC and even Platinum cold with content and stuff to do, they where filled with fanservice and continuity nods not to mention the biggest dex for it's time with great ingame distribution and loads of hidden disk one nukes if you choose to explore an area a bit more than usual.

Then it had thematic battles and the hardest E4 challenge of all along an actual competent final boss battle so demoralizing for its intended market they had to nerf his hydreigon in the sequel, taken up to 11 by Iris rematch with epic Gao(her pose is literally pretend she is a dragon Gao is the sound they are supposed to make) music in space on the finale of B2W2 with DD mold breaker focus sash haxorus at higher level than Red.

Seriously, the 5th gen is the gem of the crown of the Pokémon franchise except for non guts flame orb Conkeldurr being a mayor hiccups.

This is the kind of game that spoiled us before the big step down in difficulty and content, yet somehow folks still pretend gen 2 was the big thing or ignore that Platinum was 1upped by gen 5 on every aspect as one could argue that PWT was more accessible than BF and had a bigger sense of accomplishment with 6v6 battles vs nearly every mayor figure in the franchise bar some E4 members.

Seriously, we deserve a B2W2 stuff to happen already, I know the bar is to high but I hope Alola has a bit of Unova for us to rejoice.

Outside 6th gen, I find 5th to be the next easiest. I found it to be lacking in things to do that weren't pointless and that Hydreigon (Cyths Garchomp is a lot harder to deal with, double so in D/P were the mon selection is shitty) wasn't hard to handle lol. PWT was a cute gimmick but ultimately left a lot to be desired, such as replay-ability. So I don't really see how PL was one uped? The battle frontier itself made for more (timewise) end game content. Like you are really trying to over sell are rather blah game.

 

[Codraroll]

If past games are anything to go by, I don't think we should expect too much postgame in Sun/Moon. Game Freak has had an annoying habit of cutting the post-game of the first games of a region to a bare minimum, then re-introducing the features in the next games to have selling points over the base games. Fans would buy any game with a new region and new Pokémon. If neither a new region nor new Pokémon are available, they sprinkle on some "extra features" such as Gym Leader rematches, more battle facilities, an engaging post-game and upgraded movepools. All of those could easily be present in the base games, but that would rob the follow-ups of critical selling points.

I think many of us were slightly disappointed that there was no Pokémon Z. Kalos had a very basic post-game: Visit one city, participate in a generic Battle Tower clone, battle your rival once a day. Also the Looker quest, which was nice, but ultimately a one-time thing. XY didn't have that much "staying power" compared to the plentitude of daily/seasonal events in BW2. ORAS allowed you to catch a bunch of legendaries, but beyond that it copied the Battle Maison wholesale and called that a post-game. There were some daily events in Secret Bases, and I suppose contents could pass for an extra "battle" facility, but ultimately ORAS' postgame didn't hold a candle to that of BW2. We were all hoping for a BW2-esque game that could bring endless replayability to the Kalos region. Something to tie up the loose ends, something to do in the major empty locations (Shabboneau Castle, the Cyllage City racing track, Tower of Mastery, the Dendemille Windmill, Chamber of Emptiness, Kalos Power Plant, and so on), new Formes for more legendary Pokémon, and maybe a small "management" mini-game akin to Join Avenue. Platinum and BW2 showed us what was possible to do in a post-game. Kalos gave us a bunch of locations to potentially do it in. ORAS had a rather small post-game, possibly building up to something big. TPCi didn't follow through. ORAS ended up being the Gen VI generation-ender, with a shelf span of two years, but it wasn't even close to have a post-game to match. Let us hope the follow-up games to Sun and Moon will pick up BW2's legacy.

 

[D_what]

Related news. Idk if anyone on this entire site plays the tcg so I'm gonna take it on myself to post this.

http://www.pokebeach.com/2016/06/magearna-ex-from-xy

Magearna is getting a tcg release, far, far sooner than expected. This is entirely unprecedented. Firstly, the TCG has never released next gen mons outside of movie promos. Secondly, even within a gen, legends tend to be the theme of a later set - hell, Zygarde debuted in XY10, and that's regular Zygarde. It is a movie themed set so there is at least a reason, but something is still really off about the timing. On the other hand, this fits in very nicely with the league themes we found out about months ago.

I will say, discussion on Magearna's ability or signature move based on the card is entirely and emphatically pointless. TCG only rarely uses in-game moves or abilities and most of the time will just make something up based on the attack costs/effects from a card game design point of view or pull it from flavour. That doesn't mean it won't match Mageaena's move/ability in the future, but... what would be the point? We won't have the games (and possibly the Pokemon) to compare it against. So if my word means anything to anybody, please take that particular topic as baseless speculation :V

I'm totes gonna try and pull one. I just finished a steel deck that's situationally immune to status, attacks from Pokemon EX, and attacks from Pokemon with special Energy. Mystical Heart might be redundant, but I'll be damned if I'm not gonna try to use something that pretty.

 

[Taistelu]

I'm actually happy there isn't a Pokemon Z and that were jumping straight to S/M. I'm not a massive fan of 3rd games considering they are the same as the other two but with minor improvements. This generally isn't worth the price of a full game for it. I'm glad they disposed of it in Gen V and added B2W2 which actually had a lot of new content. Going from XY to S/M means I get to have fresh new Pokemon content sooner. This also probably means there won't be a Pokemon Eclipse or something along those lines. S/M look like their going to be really cool so I'm a lot more hyped for this than I was for XY

 

[Axelsaurus]

No one actually thought that Z is still a possibility in some ways? I really don't believe at all to the "we programmed and than dropped it at last" story. Sun&Moon were likely already programmed for the 20th anniversary well before all the marketing about Zygarde formes, and all that would've been plain stupid if there'll actually be a lack of it in the next games. Two are the possibilities imho: we could have a "XYZ quest" in SuMo (and not just "Z", 'cause Zygarde without Xerneas and Yveltal wouldn't make sense) as we had the Delta episode in ORAS, or the XY sequel(s) are just delayed. It's not what they did in the past? Yeah, of course, but we know that GF isn't that predictable anymore, no one expected B2W2 at the time... Maybe they delayed the sequels 'cause they wanted to make something completely new for the anniversary, and than propose a new story for Kalos before eventual DP remakes (I'm hoping they'll be for the next gen console, we already had ORAS for 3ds... Actually I'm hoping they'll stop making first versions remakes and start to improve them with sequels, but I guess that's wishful thinking).

 

[sneaky.]

A bit late to the party

I will drink my own piss if solgaleo and lunala aren't immune to fire and dark respectively. No way game freak pulls this shit without some kinda secret in the back, it just doesn't add up.

The power creep that comes with each generation, the names of the abilities themselves and the fact that game freak said these are NEW abilities further support my theory.

 

[Darth Manaphy]

Related news. Idk if anyone on this entire site plays the tcg so I'm gonna take it on myself to post this.

http://www.pokebeach.com/2016/06/magearna-ex-from-xy

Magearna is getting a tcg release, far, far sooner than expected. This is entirely unprecedented. Firstly, the TCG has never released next gen mons outside of movie promos. Secondly, even within a gen, legends tend to be the theme of a later set - hell, Zygarde debuted in XY10, and that's regular Zygarde. It is a movie themed set so there is at least a reason, but something is still really off about the timing. On the other hand, this fits in very nicely with the league themes we found out about months ago.

I will say, discussion on Magearna's ability or signature move based on the card is entirely and emphatically pointless. TCG only rarely uses in-game moves or abilities and most of the time will just make something up based on the attack costs/effects from a card game design point of view or pull it from flavour. That doesn't mean it won't match Mageaena's move/ability in the future, but... what would be the point? We won't have the games (and possibly the Pokemon) to compare it against. So if my word means anything to anybody, please take that particular topic as baseless speculation :V

I'm totes gonna try and pull one. I just finished a steel deck that's situationally immune to status, attacks from Pokemon EX, and attacks from Pokemon with special Energy. Mystical Heart might be redundant, but I'll be damned if I'm not gonna try to use something that pretty.

To add on to that, we should know a bit more by August because of this product: http://www.pokebeach.com/2016/04/magearna-and-volcanion-ex-in-new-blister-pack

It's a regular Magearna card - not an EX. That means, unless stuff changes, we should have PokeDex info on it.

 

[Taistelu]

No one actually thought that Z is still a possibility in some ways? I really don't believe at all to the "we programmed and than dropped it at last" story. Sun&Moon were likely already programmed for the 20th anniversary well before all the marketing about Zygarde formes, and all that would've been plain stupid if there'll actually be a lack of it in the next games. Two are the possibilities imho: we could have a "XYZ quest" in SuMo (and not just "Z", 'cause Zygarde without Xerneas and Yveltal wouldn't make sense) as we had the Delta episode in ORAS, or the XY sequel(s) are just delayed. It's not what they did in the past? Yeah, of course, but we know that GF isn't that predictable anymore, no one expected B2W2 at the time... Maybe they delayed the sequels 'cause they wanted to make something completely new for the anniversary, and than propose a new story for Kalos before eventual DP remakes (I'm hoping they'll be for the next gen console, we already had ORAS for 3ds... Actually I'm hoping they'll stop making first versions remakes and start to improve them with sequels, but I guess that's wishful thinking).

This is a pretty good point tbh. I don't think XY sequels will happen though. It would be a bit strange to go from Gen VI to Gen VII to a Gen VI sequel, although with all the surprises GF has been giving us lately it isn't impossible, but I'd say it's unlikely. As for Zygarde in S/M, still a bit strange that it hasn't had a game to itself yet so I suppose a (XY)Z style postgame isn't impossible. If it does happen it should be good if they try to try up loose ends in Kalos

A bit late to the party

I will drink my own piss if solgaleo and lunala aren't immune to fire and dark respectively. No way game freak pulls this shit without some kinda secret in the back, it just doesn't add up.

The power creep that comes with each generation, the names of the abilities themselves and the fact that game freak said these are NEW abilities further support my theory.

It's possible their hidden abilities could make them immune to fire and dark respectively or some new forme. Could be related to the story though.

 

[Kurona]

Sun/Moon wouldn't destroy anything.

Zygarde Perfect form will be activated by using the four legendaries of XY and SUMO (Xerneas, Yveltal, Solgaleo and Lunala), The Protector of the Earth, and then we will fight agaisnt Marshadow or whatever the name of the third legendary is, an amenace from the outer space of equal power. As in GSC, we will catch both Solgaleo and Lunala in the games. This will be a post game event like Delta episode.

Sounds cool. What's your source?

 

[Tsaeb XIII]

No one actually thought that Z is still a possibility in some ways? I really don't believe at all to the "we programmed and than dropped it at last" story. Sun&Moon were likely already programmed for the 20th anniversary well before all the marketing about Zygarde formes, and all that would've been plain stupid if there'll actually be a lack of it in the next games. Two are the possibilities imho: we could have a "XYZ quest" in SuMo (and not just "Z", 'cause Zygarde without Xerneas and Yveltal wouldn't make sense) as we had the Delta episode in ORAS, or the XY sequel(s) are just delayed. It's not what they did in the past? Yeah, of course, but we know that GF isn't that predictable anymore, no one expected B2W2 at the time... Maybe they delayed the sequels 'cause they wanted to make something completely new for the anniversary, and than propose a new story for Kalos before eventual DP remakes (I'm hoping they'll be for the next gen console, we already had ORAS for 3ds... Actually I'm hoping they'll stop making first versions remakes and start to improve them with sequels, but I guess that's wishful thinking).

I've been wondering whether GF's third version strategy in general might have changed, and that the third versions going forward might find themselves in the generation after their original games. With B2W2, GF already indicated that they were looking to change up the traditional formula. What better way to do that than to let us revisit the "best of" version of the previous generation with a post game containing a new generation of Pokemon and the general improvements that potentially come from a generation change? That would give us a projected slate of Sun/Moon, Diamond/Pearl remakes and Z for Gen VII (with a hypothetical "Eclipse" third version for Sun/Moon coming in Gen VIII). Don't get me wrong, I was as surprised as anyone when the announcement turned out to be Sun/Moon instead of Z but, given all the factors involved, I feel like there is still a Z version coming in some form, and delaying the third version by a generation would certainly counter the potential perception that third versions are just milking a cash cow by reusing assets.

 

[Flamedood]

I've been wondering whether GF's third version strategy in general might have changed, and that the third versions going forward might find themselves in the generation after their original games. With B2W2, GF already indicated that they were looking to change up the traditional formula. What better way to do that than to let us revisit the "best of" version of the previous generation with a post game containing a new generation of Pokemon and the general improvements that potentially come from a generation change? That would give us a projected slate of Sun/Moon, Diamond/Pearl remakes and Z for Gen VII (with a hypothetical "Eclipse" third version for Sun/Moon coming in Gen VIII). Don't get me wrong, I was as surprised as anyone when the announcement turned out to be Sun/Moon instead of Z but, given all the factors involved, I feel like there is still a Z version coming in some form, and delaying the third version by a generation would certainly counter the potential perception that third versions are just milking a cash cow by reusing assets.

I feel like it is still baseless speculation at this point but considering we haven't seen any Zygarde models or confirmation in the S&M info and that Magearna, a legendary that was announced after Zygardes forms has been tied to S&M, I think it is a definite possibility that we will see Pokemon Z in gen VII as opposed to D/P remakes

 

[Darth Manaphy]

I'm actually starting to wonder if this was all part of Gamefreak's plan from the start with Zygarde and Gen VI and Gen VII. I mean the Strange Souvenir looks a LOT like stuff we'd find in Alola. It would be interesting if there was this grand overarching plot between the two. I doubt it but it'll certainly be interesting.

EDIT: Makes me wonder if it's Marshadow or even more interesting...a corruption of Perfect Zygarde.

 

[Kurona]

The only thing that really prevents me from seeing this side of things is that it is so safe, risk-free and easy to just make a third version and get a ton of money from it. You're practically getting money for nothing since you're just repeating the game you made a few years ago with a few bells and whistles you've had those few years to tack on.
Though one could also argue that because they have so much money they can try and do something a little less risk-free like resolving Zygarde in a new Generation. But I dunno... maybe I'm just a bit too cynical for that. Which is weird, because I like to be optimistic a lot of the time. I guess I save all my cynicism for big companies and franchises in it for the money

 

[Taistelu]

I can't see Pokemon Z being in Gen VII. I just can't. It doesn't make sense for a Gen VI game to be in Gen VII

 

[Flamedood]

The only thing that really prevents me from seeing this side of things is that it is so safe, risk-free and easy to just make a third version and get a ton of money from it. You're practically getting money for nothing since you're just repeating the game you made a few years ago with a few bells and whistles you've had those few years to tack on.
Though one could also argue that because they have so much money they can try and do something a little less risk-free like resolving Zygarde in a new Generation. But I dunno... maybe I'm just a bit too cynical for that. Which is weird, because I like to be optimistic a lot of the time. I guess I save all my cynicism for big companies and franchises in it for the money

I think it's the fact that it was so mind numbingly obvious to just make Z straight up that has people looking for another explanation- BW2 proved that they could innovate the formula to print more money- maybe their sales projections for selling Z after S&M was even greater as more time would have passed since x&y and story elements in Alola may connect to Kalos? It may be one of the longest most well thought out marketing strategies in their history.

Dont underestimate multimillion dollar coorporations and their marketing and business plans. (Although having said all this up until a month ago they still released info via corocoro so maybe they really don't have a clue what they're doing)

 

[Siggu]

I can't see Pokemon Z being in Gen VII. I just can't. It doesn't make sense for a Gen VI game to be in Gen VII

Why not using the Gold/Silver formula, a sequel in another region?

 

[Kurona]

I guess that if Z was indeed cancelled and they left Zygarde's forms until Sun/Moon, they could easily just not explain it and say "screw it, leave it to the anime and manga and whatever". Sure people would complain, but it wouldn't matter because they'd keep buying the games. If they had to drop Z then in that case it's not the biggest loss in the world.

 

[Sirya]

Sounds cool. What's your source?

X'D Just wait!!!

 

[Darth Manaphy]

AKA, pure conjecture bullshit.

Also, does anyone else want to compile a list of all these supposed "leaks" and then we can comment about how true they are after the games come out? I feel like that might be a fun aside.

 

[Codraroll]

AKA, pure conjecture bullshit.

Also, does anyone else want to compile a list of all these supposed "leaks" and then we can comment about how true they are after the games come out? I feel like that might be a fun aside.

I've considered for a while to create a "discussion of speculation" thread, to reminisce about all the silly things people tried to pass off as real during the release period of a new generation. No idea how to frame it properly, though, so I've let it pass.

Also, the Serebii forums keep a list of hoaxes, though it isn't updated particularly often. On Smogon, I think we should stick to the Smogon approach, and just keep leaks away until confirmed by reliable sources.

 

[brightobject]

Hoo-ee, that gave me chicken skin!



Nintendo's localisation team has done it again

 

[The Avalanches]

To add on to that, we should know a bit more by August because of this product: http://www.pokebeach.com/2016/04/magearna-and-volcanion-ex-in-new-blister-pack

It's a regular Magearna card - not an EX. That means, unless stuff changes, we should have PokeDex info on it.

Watch it become a Full Art (but not EX) card and not have the info on it. Calling it right now.