Arceus-Ground (Special Set)

[Nayrz]

foreshock, mainshock, aftershock

QC 4/3 (Hack | WreckDra | Sweep | Fireburn)
QCR 1/3 (shrang)
GP 2/2 (The Dutch Plumberjack | P Squared)

[SET]
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Judgment
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Toxic
item: Earth Plate
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Ground Arceus can take a different route from the usual Swords Dance sets and utilize its Ground-type Judgment to become more of a support Arceus, similar to the likes of the standard Water Arceus and Dragon Arceus sets. Ground Arceus has to forgo Defog to remain viable, however, as it has no room to fit Defog when its Judgment has a lot of dangerous switch-ins in Ubers, leaving a secondary attack such as Ice Beam necessary. Judgment hits Primal Groudon on its weaker Special Defense stat and does well against all Ground-weak Pokemon. Another bonus to Judgment is that Ground Arceus does not need to fear burns as much from attacks such as Primal Groudon's Lava Plume and Mega Gengar's Will-O-Wisp. This gives this set more of a compressed role in a way to check most Primal Groudon sets, with only the more specially offensive set giving this Ground Arceus set trouble. Ice Beam complements Judgment to an extent and keeps threats such as Mega Salamence and Rayquaza in check. It also hits most Pokemon with a Ground-type immunity such as Giratina-O, Latios, and Latias, but it falls short against Bronzong, Skarmory, and Ho-Oh. Latios and Latias tend to run recovery moves, however, and Ice Beam doesn't deal enough damage to keep them from switching in freely. Recover is a necessity to support Arceus to keep them healthy, and this set is no exception. Toxic puts a timer on many of this set's switch-ins such as Ho-Oh, Lugia, and other support Arceus formes, but it doesn't help against Bronzong and Skarmory—that job belongs to its teammates. An alternative option is to swap out Ice Beam and Toxic in exchange for Stone Edge and Thunder Wave. This can prove to be much better at handling Ho-Oh switch-ins but can make the matchup against Mega Salamence and Lugia much more difficult. Thunder Wave provides an alternative way to cripple incoming Ground Arceus checks, opting to slow them down for a teammate to easily check them, rather than attempting to Toxic stall them itself. Many Pokemon that are immune to Thunder Wave can have trouble taking on Ground Arceus, which is a bonus.

Set Details
========

252 HP EVs give the best overall bulk, a necessity for support Arceus sets. 168 Speed EVs let Ground Arceus outspeed positive-natured base 95 Speed Pokemon such as Rayquaza and Kyurem-W. The remaining EVs go into Defense with a Bold nature to take on the numerous physical attackers in the tier more effectively.

Some alternative EV spreads to consider involve using 124 Speed EVs in exchange for more Defense EVs. 124 Speed EVs let Ground Arceus outspeed positive-natured base 90 Speed Pokemon instead. Ground Arceus can go even slower with just 16 Speed EVs and the rest in Defense to fully maximize its bulk. 16 Speed EVs will still let it outspeed neutral-natured fully invested base 90 Speed Pokemon.

Usage Tips
========

This Ground Arceus set tends to play more or less like your standard support Arceus, meaning the ideal way to play it is to switch into physical threats that pose a threat to any member of the team. This set performs best against Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence and should be switched in without much fear. The immunity to Thunder Wave can prove very useful, as Primal Groudon will potentially try to catch an incoming check with Thunder Wave, giving Ground Arceus a free switch. Watch out for a mixed Primal Groudon set, however, as Fire Blast from such a set can deal up to 75% of Ground Arceus's HP, leaving it in a bad position. Keeping healthy with Recover is key to ensuring protection for your team against Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence. Aim to predict Pokemon such as Skarmory and Bronzong to switch in, as Ground Arceus has very little chance to break past them. A good tactic is to switch Ground Arceus into something it checks and then double switch out to a teammate such as Primal Kyogre to catch out incoming Ground Arceus checks. Double switching can prove to be a useful tactic in general to prevent momentum loss against an offensive team. If Skarmory and Bronzong are not on the opposing team but Pokemon such as Ho-Oh and Latios are, aim to hit them with Toxic on the switch to cripple them. This means that they cannot switch in repeatedly and will lose to attrition in the long run.

Team Options
========

Special Ground Arceus sets require a rather specific set of teammates in order to avoid being outclassed by other support Arceus formes such as Dragon Arceus and Water Arceus. As a result, this set doesn't fit the typical balance teams of the current metagame that build around Ho-Oh, as the lack of Fire- and Water-type resistances from Ground Arceus can leave too many gaps in a build that can be exploited by dangerous threats such as Primal Kyogre and opposing Ho-Oh. This set tends to best fit a "bulky offense" style of team, a team archetype that uses Pokemon with a mix of bulk and power alongside entry hazards to break teams down in a slower and more methodical manner than a hyper offensive playstyle. The lack of Defog also means that Ground Arceus's teammates are better off using their own entry hazards and forcing the enemy to remove the entry hazards, or else they risk losing a war of attrition. An ideal teammate is Primal Kyogre, as it provides backup support against most of Ground Arceus's checks and also helps against mixed Primal Groudon, while Ground Arceus takes care of all other Primal Groudon sets, something that Primal Kyogre appreciates. Another teammate that suits this style of team is Mega Gengar, a Pokemon that can trap and remove annoyances from the enemy team. Primal Groudon can also fit this team well, taking care of opposing Primal Kyogre, being able to set Stealth Rock, and providing a soft check to Ho-Oh. Xerneas enjoys the security that Ground Arceus brings against Primal Groudon, potentially opening it up to a sweep later in the match. Priority users such as Rayquaza and Deoxys-A are welcome teammates due to both of them being good wallbreakers in their own right while also providing some security against opposing Geomancy Xerneas, courtesy of their access to Extreme Speed. Spikes setters such as Klefki and Ferrothorn are good considerations, with each bringing their own niche to a team alongside their Spikes. Klefki is great against Darkrai, Latios, and Xerneas, while Ferrothorn works well against Latios too and also covers Primal Kyogre and opposing support Arceus formes.

Skeleton

[SET]
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Judgment
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Toxic
item: Earth Plate
nature: Bold
evs: 248 HP / 92 Def / 168 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

• Judgment owns Ground weak mons, doesn't have to worry about burns
• Ice Beam owns Ice weak mons and most Ground immunes, but can be very weak vs neutral targets
• Recover keeps ya healthy
• Toxic will pressure Ho-Oh and levitating dragons that take Ice Beam well enough - Gira-O/Latios are 3HKO'd by Ice Beam, but Latios usually has recovery

Set Details
========

• Max hp for bulk, 168 Speed for +Speed 95s, rest in Def to take on Pdon/Mence
• Alternative spread involves 124 Speed EVs in exchange for more Def to hit the +Speed 90s mark instead
• Can go even slower with just 16 Speed EVs to maximise bulk, also outspeeds neutral max Speed 90s

Usage Tips
========

• Set idea is a role compressor and way to check/counter most Primal Groudon while also covering Mega Salamence with just one mon
• Fits more offensively inclined balance teams, usually involving Spikes
• Doesn't really fit typical Ho-Oh balance teams due to lack of fire resist + Kyogre weakness leaving too many gaps in a build
• Pivot off the physical threats that get a free shot vs your team
• Predict Ho-Oh/Ground immune switches and hit em with a Toxic on the switch
• Use Recover to stay near full - Mixed Primal Groudon still deals a shit ton of damage
• Double to Primal Groudon or another teammate on predicted Bronzong/Skarmory switches
• Plays more or less like your average support Arceus

Team Options
========

• Priority (Ray/Deo-A)
• Primal Groudon
• "Bulky Offense" teammates (Xerneas/Mega Gengar/Primal Kyogre)
• Spikers - Klefki, Ferrothorn, Skarmory

 

[Aberforth]

Oh its up already. I'm stupid and unobservant.

I'm still not sold on this as a set. I'm not qc, I cant reject things, but I'd definitely like to hear more about why it should be used at all. Its for a more offensive team, but its pretty bad at giving up momentum and toxic isn't enough to counteract that in my opinion. With this set you're giving free switch ins to Kyogre, Bronzong, the Latis, opposing defogceus and not really punishing things like Ho-oh for switching in much. Toxic does punish the switch in but if its for a more offensive team, its not like ho-oh particularly needs to be at a great amount of HP (unless you're using it as your xern counter, in which case good luck) and it enjoys the opportunity to fire off a free hit in a matchup where it is generally quite poor, and the same goes to the other targets of toxic. The exception I could see would be on mega gengar hex offense build, but even that would generally (imo) prefer something like a Dragceus to offer defog support as well.

As for the things it grants offense, yes it counters Mence and Pdon, however there are things that can do this better on offense (Dialga and mega mence in particular) and while it checks those two, it gives powerful breakers far more opportunities to damage an offensive team than they would otherwise have had. Not only that, I fail to see a way that this set helps offense fulfill it's goal. Approaching an offensive team by looking to pack stuff purely for their defensive attributes is not something I'm a fan of, anything on an offensive team should have a purpose towards advancing that team's win condition. This groundceus set has next to no common counters/checks to other things on offense that you'd want to weaken, and the ones it does share with things like Xerneas dont get weakened enough by it. Not to mention that it is slower than diancie, one of the big things an Arceus-forme normally does for an offensive team.

 

[Nayrz]

i'm not the biggest fan of this myself, but it's been brought up and used by a large amount of people over the oras meta's timeframe and i'd like it to be sorted out if special groundceus is viable once and for all. if it is rejected, i can easily bring this thread to anyone that says its deserving of a set. if its accepted, then sure its deserving of its place on the site. i am personally 50/50 on this set, which helps that im the one writing it as i couldn't honestly decide if i would accept or reject this set.

do what ya will.

 

[Hack]

I would go with 168 speed as the main spread. The alternative is to go even slower for more bulk (16 speed thing).

Looks good otherwise, qc 1/3

 

[shrang]

Is it just me, or does this set look really momentum killing for the kind of team that it belongs on (Ray/Gar offense)? You have what is essentially an HO team, and you plonk a defensive Groundceus in the middle. It's kind of like dropping Lugia onto Deo-S HO lol.

 

[Hack]

No it's not, that was about the most blatantly false I've seen around here in a long time

Lugia on deo-s offense (which is a more defensive mon on a more offensive team) is just not comparable at all. I know you are probably not serious about that opinion but what do I know

Can u explain to me in what gameplay scenario you would drop momentum by using this? Is it when u tox your check or when you threaten to KO pdon? Or maybe when you are preventing a mence set up?

 

[Aberforth]

When you invite in wallbreakers that would normally not be able to find much room to come in on offense (Kyogre, Yveltal) and they get to fire off hits? Threatening to KO a groudon is good and all, but things find it a lot easier to switch in to special groundceus than they do physical ones, and toxicing the check (like Ho-oh) can leave Groundceus in a tough situation later when you're trying to take on a +2 speed Groudon while burnt and weakened. Also inviting in stuff like pre-mega gengar, bronzong and skymin among others can be a momentum drain, and while you do have ice beam to deter the latter from switching in, you're not always going to be in a situation to afford to click ice beam. The offensive pressure this Arceus-Forme puts on a team is minimal compared to options like Physical Groundceus, Ekiller or even special attackers like Iceceus. And yeah those 3 dont check pdon or mence as well, but that's why you have team members supporting them that can check them while also doing stuff from an offensive point of view.

My big problem with the set is that it doesn't do much for the offensive team from an offensive point of view. It doesn't wear down many checks for Gengar/Ray to sweep later, it doesn't share many checks with either of them (with the exception of Ho-oh for gengar and even so that's not a matchup I'd feel comfortable trying to win with Arc-Ground while I might still need it to take hits later) and it doesn't even offer hazard support for the Ray. Putting it on the team makes the team much more like a Balance team... In which case I'd rather use Dragceus or Waterceus because they can also offer defog without being complete Ho-oh bait, and they still deal with pretty much all groudon variants when combined with Ray and Gengar.

 

[shrang]

The Lugia HO was an extreme example. It was an exaggeration, but the point was that this set doesn't do much for offense teams to advance the strategy of what these offense teams are supposed to achieve apart from (quite shoddily) patching up a few weakness.

Pomman covered most of it, but I'll just run through examples if that's what you want. I don't know what exactly the team that you're having this set on you have in mind is since I haven't been playing for a few weeks, but from what I gather, you have this/Ray/Gengar/Xern + what I'm going to assume as P Don + a Toxic Spiking lead (probably Cloyster or maybe Scolipede/Greninja).

Offensive threats this set lets in:
- Latios - this is probably the hardest to deal with, and this Groundceus gives it multiple times to come in and fuck around
- Yveltal
- Kyogre
- Ho-oh - you can Toxic it (I'm going to assume that you don't always predict the switch and Toxic it), but this thing is going to be severely weakened and probably burnt (since nothing else in that team is going to take Ho-oh well) so I can't see how you're going to be able to use this to check the intended targets
- Gengar
- GeoXern - more on the free switch into like Ice Beam or death fodder, but especially stuff like Aroma or RestTalk variants are especially bad for this kind of build
- SD Ghostceus
- SD Groundceus
- Mewtwo
- Iceceus
- Gothitelle
- Palker
- Aurora using Fireceus

Defensive threats this set lets do whatever they want:
- Blissey
- Latias - especially Defog ones, seeing as Toxic Spikers tend to be more suicidal, they get free Defog on Groundceus and waste all of your lovely Toxic Spikes, or even just use the turn to Roost because you just Dragon Tailed them for 50% the last turn, which means you wasted that whole good prediction.
- Giratina-O - you win against this, but can't stop it Defogging, which again wastes the whole point of suicide Toxic Spikes leads, which does weaken them to Donner, but Toxic Spikes is probably a higher priority by this point so they still gained from the whole thing.
- Lugia - you can Toxic this, but you can easily salvage a weakened Lugia on this thing to Roost while eating a Toxic for the possibility to live another day, possibly with Blissey coming in a bit later to Aroma that Toxic away, even. It would be huge shame if you say, pumped like 60%+ into Lugia with Ray, only to have it come into Groundceus and undo all that damage you just did.
- Defog Arceus - like Gira-O, you win vs this but can't stop it Defogging
- Skarmory
- Ferrothorn - Judgement does 0 to this

KOing Groudon is a big thing (even though you can't even OHKO Double Dance Donner at 100% lol), but without "and then what?" it means nothing. Someone could potentially just let you OHKO their Groudon if it means bringing in that GeoXern for free and setting up all over and winning if that's what the situation calls for. Obviously, builds are supposed to cater for this, you can't just say "KOing Groudon" is an example of not losing momentum because it clearly isn't.


ah whatever qc rejected 1/3

 

[Hack]

I mean you do bring up some semi fair points. Then you destroy all your credibility by bringing up mons like yveltal (gets toxic stalled), groundceus/ghostceus (free set ups my ass). Gengar also takes 35 non megad, and dies when it megas. What are you gonna expect a non megad gar to do exactly?

The whole toxic spikes story is cute but no, I don't think those are too great team options with the set (although cloy/groundceus/pdon/hooh/gar/xern is p nice)

 

[shrang]

My God why are you so combative about everything? You can easily counter my points in a perfectly normal fashion. Tbf Ygod is like Ho-oh (although admittedly easier to take hits with), you're not going to expect Groundceus to check any of its intended targets if you're going to depend on Toxic stalling to take it out. Groundceus and Ghostceus aren't having "free" setups, but seriously how are you expecting to wait for them to get Toxic stalled when they're just going to wail on you with boosted EQs and Shadow Forces and what not. As for Toxic Spikes, you don't have to use them on a team, but the point still stands that most of the defensive threats mentioned still do whatever the fuck they want, and the fact that they can Defog or whatever they want is still a testament to losing momentum as soon as this thing comes in.

 

[orch]

because most of your points are retarded or irrelevant. why are you even on qc team anyways? most of your so called flaws/weaknesses are shared by ALL support arceus except for extremely niche ones. in short, these flaws/weaknesses don't diminish groundceus' niche at all. and for the record, i agree that tspikes with this groundceus set is dumb. its best used on bo/balance with continuous (think klefki/ferro) spikes support with no defog support. you use defogless team with spikes to force opposing team to defog and you use these free turns to win and you abuse the attrition to win vs other offense teams.

- Latios - waterceus/drag lets this mon in too anyways! and if you're facing non gk variant, then it gets toxic stalled.
- Yveltal - groundceus wins this match up??
- Kyogre - water/drag loses to some certain sets. but yes, the standard defensive pogre is a threat.
- Ho-oh - toxic -> recover. you're back to full and ho-oh is hilariously crippled by toxic, recoil, and potential sr.
- Gengar - groundceus handles this better than water/drag which is a big favor to it. all supp arc loses to psong set but at least groundceus doesnt lose to hex sets.
- GeoXern - all supp arc gets rekt by this.
- SD Ghostceus - all supp arc gets rekt by this.
- SD Groundceus - all supp arc gets rekt by this.
- Mewtwo - all supp arc gets rekt by this
- Iceceus - how do you slash out goth and expects us to take this "threat" seriously? drag/water flat out loses to this too.
- Gothitelle - all supp arc gets rekt by this
- Palker - all supp arc gets rekt by this
- Aurora using Fireceus - groundceus beats this. do you have a brain?

- Blissey - all supp arc lets it in.
- Latias - toxic wins
- Giratina-O - even you agree that groundceus wins. also, it can freely switch into twave hex set which is awesome.
- Lugia - toxiced lugia is an useless lugia. you CAN'T check anything with a toxiced lugia.
- Defog Arceus - you trade toxic for defog and you win the game bc of attirition!
- Skarmory - only judg waterceus wins this match up.
- Ferrothorn - no other arc does shit vs ferrothorn unless they have wisp

the niche for this groundceus is that it beats ALL pdon and mence at the same time. dragceus and waterceus can't do that.

 

[Hack]

I'm combative since you base your opinion on blatantly false information. It is also insane to think it disfavors the arc ground user to stall out intended checks
via toxic. Trading a ho-oh (or even yveltal) away for keeping something low is rarely ever worth it. Also sforce is a move that takes 2 turns to use. This means that yeah, I expect to stall it out

 

[Inspirited]

Begin Rant:
This set is a mind bender in all the wrong ways but I think I got something (finally :p). The biggest problems I was finding with it was every team-style but one I tried to put it on badly wanted an E-Killer or SD variant just worked better due to its ability to boost its own damage. There aren't many solid endgame mons on bulky offense that also ease Darkrai pressure when your Arceus slot it taken by a bulky Arceus forme that doesn't use Defog. I can live with Giratina-O using Defog for Ho-Oh, but I really don't like it being the Kyogre pivot if I can help it. To make matters worse, most secondary ground / mence checks, that can be used with Drag or Waterceus, bring a good number of other team checkmarks to the table which made justifying this really hard. To make EVEN matters worse, when you try to fix that problem, you open the team up to Darkrai which is never fun. I finally got something that kinda fits my building standard, but it doesn't feel good enough for me to use anywhere outside of fun games. -End Rant

I realize this is entirely personal and people can forget about Primal Kyogre for the most part even though I refuse to sleep on it. That being said this Groundceus does have a place and shouldn't be slept on itself. People need to know that this thing exists because it is rather threatening to face even if you have a Ho-Oh. Other than that, it's really hard for the sampler to break this mon, once Darkrai has been expended, outside of Xerneas who cannot outlast Groundceus. What makes this mon usable is that it is disgusting hard to break safely thanks to its STAB being really good unlike other bulky Arceus formes who can't touch the steels that try and status them. You may not even need a second ground check with this which may be where my own building is off. Either way, I do think it can be used and should have a set (underneath the SD one though), as a result.

As far as the analysis is concerned, I am very skeptical on Cloyster in particular since the time I tried building with this and Cloyster and that team wanted E-killer (or in one case an SD Ghostceus) really, really badly. I am also unsure on Deoxys-A as a partner but if Hack didn't nitpick it, I am sure there is a way to get it on a team.

QC 2/3

Don't expect me to use this mon though. What a pain...

 

[Sweep]

can we please be civil when arguing (referring mostly to Orch's calling Shrang being on the QC team into question)

using a balance team with this Pokemon and it's okay. i tried an offensive team similar to the one Hack mentioned and was thoroughly unimpressed and wished I were using the SD instead 85% of the time. i don't really have anything else to add unless someone wants clarification

QC 2/3 kys wreckdra

 

[Aberforth]

because most of your points are retarded or irrelevant. why are you even on qc team anyways? most of your so called flaws/weaknesses are shared by ALL support arceus except for extremely niche ones. in short, these flaws/weaknesses don't diminish groundceus' niche at all. and for the record, i agree that tspikes with this groundceus set is dumb. its best used on bo/balance with continuous (think klefki/ferro) spikes support with no defog support. you use defogless team with spikes to force opposing team to defog and you use these free turns to win and you abuse the attrition to win vs other offense teams..

Because the point of this mon was to be a supportceus on offensive teams, which generally do not like using pokemon that sap momentum and give free turns to stuff like Geoxern. It doesn't fit the same teams as Waterceus or Dragceus because those two outclass it from that point of view, its meant to be be used on offensive teams, Hack's example being Gengar Ray offense. While I have no doubt he has spikes on the team, the problems intrinsic to giving up momentum on offense do exist, and they are more emphasized here because other supportceus formes would not be used on offense, they'd use an offensive Groundceus.

And Sweep, I dont think being "OK" should be enough here. If on those teams, it would be outclassed by actually having a supportceus with a fire and water resist, it probably should not get an analysis, especially since you said that when you tried it on the team style that it's being brought up for receiving an analysis on it was bad. This isn't some obscure Arceus-Forme that just needs an analysis, it already has the SD set which is better in any situation that you want to use a Groundceus.

 

[orch]

i explained the archetype that i think this arc should be used on (bulky offense and balance) with reliable and durable spiker. You can afford to give up momentum in these type of teams because you'll get it back anyways. and, this set competes with other support arceus in these archetypes, which is why i addressed the overlap in weaknesses.

 

[Nayrz]

due to the debating i'll hold off on writing this up until its run its course

i'll be taking all feedback and i'll try to sort it into the writeup when it comes around - if anyone has ideal team options then hit me with them

 

[Aberforth]

Dragceus and Waterceus cannot beat all the groudon and mence sets at the same time, but in exchange for that you're making yourself significantly weaker to Ho-oh (which you struggle to come in on because Burn + rocks hurts and you dont even resist Sacred Fire while doing so), Kyogre, Skymin, Iceceus (which is not irrelevant and can actually threaten the exact type of team you mention using it on), and because of no fire resist, things like RP special don. Not to mention Salamence 2hkos this on the switch in, so its not exactly the best check (although the same could be said about other supportceus in fairness). In exchange for checking all mence and pdon sets (which Waterceus and Dragceus normally manage to check anyway) you are then compromising the rest of the team with how much worse a defensive typing Ground is than Water or Dragon. And, in the battle of supportceus, while you have the edge over Dragceus if it comes in on you, you outright lose to opposing waterceus.

Also orch the majority of the discussion I've seen on this mon has been as it is on offensive teams as a way to avoid being counterswept, which is why I am focusing on the offensive team aspect rather than a balance team which already can struggle switching in on fire type attacks that I wouldn't remove one of the few fire resistances on those builds with it to handle Pdon and Mence slightly better than teams already do.

 

[shrang]

because most of your points are retarded or irrelevant. why are you even on qc team anyways? most of your so called flaws/weaknesses are shared by ALL support arceus except for extremely niche ones. in short, these flaws/weaknesses don't diminish groundceus' niche at all. and for the record, i agree that tspikes with this groundceus set is dumb. its best used on bo/balance with continuous (think klefki/ferro) spikes support with no defog support. you use defogless team with spikes to force opposing team to defog and you use these free turns to win and you abuse the attrition to win vs other offense teams.

- Latios - waterceus/drag lets this mon in too anyways! and if you're facing non gk variant, then it gets toxic stalled.
- Yveltal - groundceus wins this match up??
- Kyogre - water/drag loses to some certain sets. but yes, the standard defensive pogre is a threat.
- Ho-oh - toxic -> recover. you're back to full and ho-oh is hilariously crippled by toxic, recoil, and potential sr.
- Gengar - groundceus handles this better than water/drag which is a big favor to it. all supp arc loses to psong set but at least groundceus doesnt lose to hex sets.
- GeoXern - all supp arc gets rekt by this.
- SD Ghostceus - all supp arc gets rekt by this.
- SD Groundceus - all supp arc gets rekt by this.
- Mewtwo - all supp arc gets rekt by this
- Iceceus - how do you slash out goth and expects us to take this "threat" seriously? drag/water flat out loses to this too.
- Gothitelle - all supp arc gets rekt by this
- Palker - all supp arc gets rekt by this
- Aurora using Fireceus - groundceus beats this. do you have a brain? - did you not see that I slashed it out and clearly meant it as a joke, lmao

- Blissey - all supp arc lets it in.
- Latias - toxic wins
- Giratina-O - even you agree that groundceus wins. also, it can freely switch into twave hex set which is awesome.
- Lugia - toxiced lugia is an useless lugia. you CAN'T check anything with a toxiced lugia.
- Defog Arceus - you trade toxic for defog and you win the game bc of attirition!
- Skarmory - only judg waterceus wins this match up.
- Ferrothorn - no other arc does shit vs ferrothorn unless they have wisp

the niche for this groundceus is that it beats ALL pdon and mence at the same time. dragceus and waterceus can't do that.

The difference is that you don't use Drag or Waterceus on teams that are advertised to be offensive. They don't care about losing momentum as much as a so-called Ray/Gar offense team would. When you have a team that's advertised as "offense" you don't want shit like Latios coming in for free because you're losing something for free. I'm basing the team on parts that Hack mentioned before, as well as what I logically pieced together as the remnants, but obviously if Toxic Spikes isn't used then that's fine. It doesn't really change how Defog saps a lot of momentum for such a team. As for Lugia, I mentioned how while being Toxiced is a setback, but I'd rather have a 80%+ Toxiced Lugia that I could potentially Heal Bell later with my Blissey that this fantastic Arceus forme provides more opportunities to switch in rather than a 30% Lugia that's going to die to any hit from Ray or Xern later.

I'm combative since you base your opinion on blatantly false information. It is also insane to think it disfavors the arc ground user to stall out intended checks
via toxic. Trading a ho-oh (or even yveltal) away for keeping something low is rarely ever worth it. Also sforce is a move that takes 2 turns to use. This means that yeah, I expect to stall it out

And that gives you an excuse to be hostile? Whatever, It depends on the situation and depending on what the opponent has, but would you be as willing to stall that Ho-oh out if they had a Mence or an RP Donner waiting later, seeing as nothing else is going to take Ho-oh?

 

[Fireburn]

Did some testing with the set tonight. It performed well in the matches I had it in and I can see the set's good qualities, but at the same time I feel like it requires very specific teammates to not be a worse pick than Waterceus or Dragonceus.

For starters, I share WreckDra's sentiment that this set does not work well on highly offensive teams. These types of teams almost always benefit more from using Extremekiller or SD Groundceus (particularly suicide lead teams like Cloyster/Deo-S HO) and get into rather large amounts of trouble when this set cedes a free turn for Ho-Oh/Latios to get a free KO or for GeoXern to have a chance to set up when it ordinarily would not be able to. It would be like trying to use support Water or Dragon Arceus on HO - the change in STAB doesn't make up for the fact that this is a mostly defensive set and gives up momentum to Pokemon that HP teams can't really afford to give free turns to.

I did eventually find success using this set on Klefki balance teams (Ferrothorn sucks lol) with Primal Kyogre. Primal Kyogre was the only partner I could really find that could check mixed PDon/help a bit vs Ho-Oh/provide the necessary 2nd water resist while not overly compromising Groundceus's niche (i.e. if you resort to using a levitating Dragon like Latios/Tina-O or Lugia then you might as well just use Waterceus for the superior Ho-Oh coverage, or using Dragonceus instead if you resort to Lando-T/Bronzong), and POgre in return really likes having Groundceus as a super safe PDon switch.

I would definitely add Kyogre to Team Options and probably drop Cloyster and Ho-Oh. It is difficult to fit hazard removal on teams with this set (Cloyster offense greatly prefers EKiller or SD Groundceus) so Ho-Oh isn't really the best partner. Add Klefki too. Other team options look good.

As for the set's viability itself, the lack of Fire resist really does bite against Ho-Oh, otherwise it's alright and the TWave immunity is nice. Doesn't play much differently to other bulky Arceus formes, but does require a different set of (specific imo) partners to not be outclassed.

 

[Hack]

I mean as much as I have my opinion on what teams the set is best used on, I can definitely respect that other people find different niches for it.

And that gives you an excuse to be hostile? Whatever, It depends on the situation and depending on what the opponent has, but would you be as willing to stall that Ho-oh out if they had a Mence or an RP Donner waiting later, seeing as nothing else is going to take Ho-oh?

Yeah I had to be a bit arbasive since you came here and starting trolling about Lugia HO and whatnot. If you can't stand getting your opinons met with the criticism they deserve then don't post.

 

[Nayrz]

alright the dust has cleared and this has been written up

hit me with the 3rd

 

[Fireburn]

looks bueno

QC 3/3

 

[Hack]

Sorry for the usual late opinion but I figured an alternative setup to be judgment/stone edge/twave/recover. Highly theoretic though so take from it what you will. It should make the match up vs ho-oh more bearable, while twave in general being a good option since immunes have a tough time switching in... Mence match up is worse but not totally unbearable (facade sucks though). Still retains its biggest niche of being the closest to a pdon counter we have obviusly. Some moves mention of this combo might be worthwhile?

 

[Nayrz]

This is already in the GP queue so for the sake of time I added that in. I'll try to gather more opinions on the idea - worst case scenario I simply remove the lines before uploading so no harm is really done either way.