CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[Korski]

I think the core idea behind pivoting in general and specifically via Parting Shot is the idea of control (control, here, meaning easing prediction by giving your opponent a narrow window of options on how to proceed). To be a good pivot, this CAP should be able to reliably switch into and threaten out particular common archetypes (with its attacks or its utility/support moves or with Parting Shot itself) and also draw in specific archetypes that can be taken advantage of with lowered stats (again, with only a small range of options on a given opposing team). Instead of wearing down switch-ins with damage, Parting Shot essentially makes the opponent weaker, so the majority of these predictable checks and counters ought to be greatly frustrated by having their attacking stats lowered as they enter the field of battle. This is harder to explain than I thought it would be, but that's sort of the gist of my thinking on the matter.

Along that line of thinking, the first typing I thought of before this thread kicked off was Fire / Steel, precisely because of how obvious it is to send in a Water-type to counter it and how screwed many Water-, Fire-, and Ground-type Pokemon are by attack drops (on top of being screwed by losing the switch advantage). Obviously, the comparison will be made to Heatran, but Heatran is already a fantastic pivot even without speed or a pivoting move, and this CAP will get both of those things. I'd say it's definitely worth consideration.

Fire / Steel

4x: Ground
2x: Fighting, Water
1x: Dark, Electric, Fire, Ghost, Rock
1/2x: Dragon, Flying, Normal, Psychic
1/4x: Bug, Fairy, Grass, Ice, Steel
0x: Poison

Oh, god, another Ground-weak CAP. Hear me out:

• resistance or neutrality to Stealth Rock: check
• Bisharp doesn't want to switch in: check
• Aurumoth doesn't want to switch in and can't set up one-on-one: check
• Cawmodore doesn't want to switch in and can't set up one-on-one: check (also w/4x Bullet Punch resist it can RKO Caw if it's naturally faster)
• Fairy check: check
  
• targeted offensive STABs that threaten common types (Steel and Fairy as a baseline): check
• broad defensive typing that provides switch-in opportunities and limits opponent's response options (building blocks for pivoting strategy): check
• can't be Burned or Poisoned: hey that's neat
• generically threatening STAB: Lava Plume (Burn then Parting Shot for maximum shenanigans)
• plays well with others: Mega Altaria, Azumarill, Breloom, Celebi, Mega Charizard-Y, Dragonite, Mega Gallade, Gyarados, Heracross(-M), Landorus-T, Lati@s(-M), Malaconda, Necturna, Mega Pinsir, Rotom-W, Serperior, Slowbro(-M), Thundurus-I, Togekiss, Tornadus-T, Venusaur(-M), Zapdos

Many Water and Fire-types in CAP, including non-Belly Drum Azumarill, Keldeo, Mega Charizard-Y, Mollux, Talonflame, Volcanion, Volkraken, Starmie, Krilowatt, Swift Swimmers, and Victini are much less effective after switching into Parting Shot, and many teams rely on these Pokemon to check opposing Fire-types without a whole lot of backup (as they are normally highly effective, not so easily worn down, or are otherwise absurdly powerful enough to compensate for their shortcomings, all of which can be mitigated by Parting Shot and a good switch-in).

Ground-types like Landorus-T, Colossoil, and Garchomp will probably be able to switch in, but again they are greatly diminished by Parting Shot's stat drop and switch advantage (not yet factoring in Burn chance or Rebound self-Phazing). Cyclohm is in the same boat as the Ground-types, leaving Prankster Taunt/Nature Power Tomohawk as really the only thing I can think of that really truly messes with this CAP. But then again, the practical effects of using Parting Shot make it so that nothing is really a great switch-in so long as your prediction is on-point. As with the other pivoting moves, this all relies entirely on good prediction; I do believe, though, that Fire / Steel really leans into the purpose of this concept and makes these predictions easier on the player than the other proposed typings.

 

[Billy the Uncle]

I too don't think that Fairy type suits CAP22.

While Fairy is an amazing type by itself, and has amazing neutral coverage along with Ghost or Ground, it doesn't excel at super-effective coverage. With CAP22 being a fast pivot that forces things out, it must threaten a lot of stuff. Looking at CAP's usage stats, Fairy neutralities/resists outnumber weaknesses at the top. Strong neutral hits aren't usually enough to knock down an opposing Pokémon, so I think we should aim for a combo of STABs that gives us wide super-effective coverage.

Priority is of course an issue, since we want CAP22 to outspeed stuff. However, we shouldn't rule out every typing that gives a weakness to any priority. Take Fighting/Flying for instance. It's weak to Ice Shard, but the only user at the top is Syclant, which is not going to like a Flying attack in the face. Also, unless we make CAP22 Deoxys-Attack level of frail, it should be able to live an Ice Shard from Syclant from full HP and retaliate for the OHKO. Of course CAP22 would die if it's weakened but we're not trying to make an immortal wall. Of course Fighting/Flying is going to have a problem with Talonflame, but if CAP22 is vulnerable to priority then of course Priority Bird is going to be a problem. Fighting/Flying s also neutral to Rock and immune to grounded hazard which is nice for a pivot.

Ice/Ground is another typing I find interesting. It would give CAP22 one of the best super-effective STAB combinations (if not the absolute best, I can't recall) and Mamoswine can vouch for how awesome of a STAB combo Ice/Ground it is. It gives us less protection from hazards, priority, and generally less defensive utility, but I believe it should be looked into.

I also like Korski's proposition of Fire/Steel, that gives us a more defensive approach without sacrificing the offensive side too much.

 

[Deck Knight]

I've had two dueling thoughts on typing for this CAP. I'll start with the more controversial one first and move to an alternate consideration second.

The first is Grass/Steel. Why this seemingly counter-intuitive type?

• High residual damage resistance. It's immune to Toxic, Sandstorm, Leech Seed, spore moves, and it resists Stealth Rock.
• Steel and Grass aren't that spammable, but the targets they *do* hit are worthwhile. Donking Fairies and Bulky Water types are great things for a pivot to be able to do. For many other threatening Pokemon, you can Parting Shot out.
• Largely Priority Neutral - It's weak to Fighting, but it resists Prankster Nature Power, Aqua Jet, and Bullet Punch without being weak to Gale Wings Brave Bird, Ice Shard, or Sucker Punch.
• Draws in predictable attacks - There's no priority Fire moves and an entire type immune to Fighting, so CAP22 can serve as an excellent offensive pivot. It has the same natural synergy with Rotom-W as Ferrothorn does, although based on discussions it will serve as fast support rather than slow.
• STAB on draining moves and general longevity. Having STAB on Horn Leech/Giga Drain as potential options allows CAP to switch in and threaten its targets repeatedly.

Cons include a nasty 4x Fire weakness and limited super-effective coverage potential. Hitting Fairy, Ground, and Water for SE is great, but Cyclohm hard walls the combination and you'll have to Parting Shot before its predicted Flamethrower. Cawmodore could also be problematic without Fire coverage or Foul Play. Tomohawk would be difficult, but not impossible for Special-based sets to overcome as Tomohawk only runs Aura Sphere around half the time and has no offensive presence at -1. Additionally, Grass/Steel/Fairy isn't bad for 3 move coverage, hitting Water/Rock/Ground/Fairy/Ice/Dark/Dragon/Fighting, almost all of which are metagame relevant. Other Steel types resist it, but Parting Shot weakens most of them significantly. In the case of Bisharp you use your Fairy coverage, since it can't hit you SE with its standard set either.

The second typing I think is useful based on the thread is Fairy/Fighting.

• What's a Dark attack? - 4x resistance is great.
• Stealth Rock resistance - always helpful in a pivot.
• Strong Super-Effective coverage - can hit Dark/Dragon/Fighting/Ice/Rock/Normal/Steel SE. Kitsunoh resists the combination, but adding Dark coverage adds Psychic and Ghost types to the target list.

Cons include a weakness to Bullet Punch and Gale Wings Brave Bird, and susceptibility to Tomohawk's Air Slash or Hurricane. That said, this typing can go either Physical or Special offensively and has competent options for each.

 

[Alfalfa]

Anonymouse Bug/Fighting is 4x weak to Talonflame's Brave Bird, which is considered to be priority. Fairy/Fighting is also weak to Bullet Punch. Steel / Fighting is also weak to Mach Punch, but that is less common and you never said that Steel was not weak to any prioriy. You may want to reword your post so as to take account of these things.

 

[snake]

I too don't think that Fairy type suits CAP22.

While Fairy is an amazing type by itself, and has amazing neutral coverage along with Ghost or Ground, it doesn't excel at super-effective coverage. With CAP22 being a fast pivot that forces things out, it must threaten a lot of stuff. Looking at CAP's usage stats, Fairy neutralities/resists outnumber weaknesses at the top. Strong neutral hits aren't usually enough to knock down an opposing Pokémon, so I think we should aim for a combo of STABs that gives us wide super-effective coverage.

We see to be focusing on While Fairy isn't the best offensive type ever, it's still very good in the CAP Metagame, as it allows CAP22 to take on certain VoltTurn stoppers that VoltTurn teams can have trouble with and has some defensive utility. Tomohawk (commonly carries Rocky Helmet to punish U-turn), Cyclohm (4x resistant to Volt Switch and can risks the opponent to activate Static), Colossoil (most common Ground-type, consequently the most common stop to Volt Switch), and Garchomp (particularly hazardous to VoltTurn as it is both immune to Volt Switch and able to punish U-turn through Rough Skin alone or in combination with Rocky Helmet) are all hit super effectively with Fairy-type moves. Ice-type coverage achieves the same goal, but if we were to assume Ice typing is the answer to these Pokemon, I ask, "Why hasn't Syclant been able to take out these Pokemon with extreme success?"

I believe the answer is not just Syclant's less-than-average defensive stats but moreso its defensive typing. Syclant also has some shortcomings in handling these Pokemon, as if it holds a Life Orb, it gets worn down very quickly and if it holds a Focus Sash, the user has to play so carefully around Garchomp so not to break it on a predicted U-turn. I do think CAP22 needs to be a little bit sturdier than Syclant, but Fairy-type helps it out immensely from the start. First, it resists Colossoil's Dark-type STAB. Second, it's not weak to any of these four Pokemon's coverage moves, namely Aura Sphere and Fire Blast.

I still support Ground-type as a secondary type, as Paralysis hurts our fast CAP22, and Ground typing helps out with that. The only matchup of those that I mentioned before that's made worse is being weak to Cyclohm's Hydro Pump and Garchomp's Aqua Tail, which are uncommon. It also gets great coverage alongside Fairy.

tl;dr: For fast VoltTurn teams (an archetype that a fast Parting Shot user will probably excel in), Fairy is good for not only its offensive but also its defensive utility, and Ground-typing is effective in similar ways.

 

[Project_Mars]

I think people seem to be focused more on "Super Effective STABs vs a wide variety of Pokemon" when "Super Effective STABs vs most top Pokemon" would probably work out a bit better for the concept since it being more specialized can help give it a better defined niche. If we are going to put more emphasis on the former, we may as well give it Ice/Electric since its coverage is legendary, does cover important things like Tomohawk and Cyclohm and an immunity to paralysis on a 'mon that likes to go fast is pretty good.

But there is more to forcing switches than just offensive prowess, although those other methods are in other parts of the CAP process and can't be discussed right now. (Unless pointing them out isn't poll jumping. Then I could say the other ways I think there are.) Regardless, I do believe that we can set ourselves up for that now by also making sure that PS'mon is able to come in fairly easily and be scary to certain types/pokemon that also happen to be fairly common. Fairy/Ground (and Fairy/Electric with Fire/Steel having merit) seems to be a good way to go.

 

[420LegitShucks]

I agree with the post that we need a Dark/Fairy type. Dark is already an amazing type offensively, and Fairy type would allow it to be the ultimate counter to both Latis. Dark/Fairy also 4x resists Dark attacks, meaning it cannot be Pursuit trapped or Sucker Punch'd. It is also hit by Mach Punch for neutral, meaning it has an easier time against Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave users. It also can switch in on anything Ghost, too, making it a pseudo-check to Kitsunoh/Gengar. Entry hazards are sometimes not that big of a deal because of the amout of Defog users and sometimes Rapid Spin users. If the main point of the CAP is to be able to avoid being Pursuit trapped, then a Dark/Fairy type is the best offensive and defensively. Case closed.

 

[Tmi489]

Hm....

Fire - Takes out Auru, Syclant, Caw, Necturn, but is weak to ground.
Flying - Takes out Tomo, Ground Weakness. But it double stealth rock'd.

Only problem, against Cruci/Strata/Cyclom, but don't they get harmed hard by P. Shot? Execpt Cyclom...

Fire/Fairy seems good to go, and I agree with whoever said that. If it's faster than Colo, then Sucker Punch won't hurt it hard. It has neutral coverage V. Bullet Punch, resistsMach Punch, and is neutral again to Bird/Flame. It beats out steel types like Cawmadore. It also beats Auru, decent against Tomo, etc.

 

[Alfalfa]

I'm going to further add to this argument, since I also heavily support Ground/Fairy as typing. So the first thing we need to address what mon Parting Shot is absolutely no good at addressing. Firstly, if we're using this as a Fast Pivot, any slow pivot can have free reign to turn on us and completely dodge consequence. In this way, having a mon that resists U-Turn and is immune to Volt Switch heavily punishes this sort of strategy from a slower mon, as they take a bunch of unnecessary damage for a bad prediction. The second mon Parting shot doesn't impact are walls. Things like Cyclohm, Fidgit, or a Sableye that has yet to Mega Evolve are very unlikely to be bothered by the stat drop, as they still serve the purpose they need to serve even with the stat drop. Therefore, this CAP needs to be really good at stallbreaking, and there aren't many better stallbreaking typings in this format than Ground/Fairy, with Ground ripping through the defensive Steel and Poison types that litter CAP like a Pittsburgh gas station, and Fairy dealing with the Big Three.

The stated assumption that our CAP needs to be really good at stallbreaking is most likely just going to translate into proposed typings that hit common stall mons super effectively and less so a stallbreaker. We are trying to tailor our CAP to be a pivot, and our pivot is most likely going to be tailored to be a pivot and less of a stallbreaker. We can hit these mons super effectively, but our main target should be covering the largest plethora of offensive and defensive threats with as much power as possible, preferably through super effective hits (I am referring to defensive targets that do not care about Parting Shot). The time this CAP is created and we go into testing, stall teams can simply pack an answer to a Ground / Fairy CAP with a mon that does not mind its dual STABs + whatever coverage it might have. Ground / Fairy might be more viable than anything / Fairy in terms of threatening relevant Pokemon without possessing critical weaknesses (vulnerability to Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, etc.), but it also has exploitable weaknesses defensively that need to be taken into consideration before we bandwagon on Ground / Fairy.

What on earth are you talking about? Fighting is terrible at getting super effective hits in this metagame. Literally the only two mons in top 20 usage that actually take a super effective hit from Fighting type moves are Colossoil, Stratagem, and Syclant, and Syclant takes super effective damage from everything. You don't get super effective coverage on Steel types, because the Steel types that get used are Metagross, Jirachi, Scizor, Skarmory, and Kitsunoh, none of which take super effective hits. You can hit Heatran and Ferro with it, but neither of these are as common as the Steels listed here. Rock is pretty much relegated to Stratagem and Tyranitar, the latter of which isn't seeing much play at all right now. Colossoil has pushed every other Dark type outside of Sableye and T-Tar out of the metagame, so you aren't getting much leeway there, as Sableye takes no damage. Ice typing gets you Kyurem-Black and Syclant, which both have a plethora of abusable weaknesses. Normal types you can hit are Chansey and Mega-Lopunny, but Chansey almost always gets paired with Sableye , which makes spamming Fighting moves somewhat awkward. In fact, the format is generally oversaturated with Ghosts, which get a free switch-in.

Fighting alone is terrible at getting super effective hits because there are a plethora of reliable Fighting resists and immunities. However, Fighting / secondary typing that targets relevant mons / non-STAB coverage, in terms of the metagame, will hit a large number of Pokemon super effectively if its attacks have good enough power. I concede that I overstepped a bit in saying that we should be aiming to hit most of the metagame super effectively, but our main threats to the teams that CAP 22 ideally fits on are threatened by Fighting / coverage / coverage if you think about the most ideal coverage moves and do not try to counter this by spinning it towards Fighting / mediocre coverage for the sake of countering an argument.

 

[Scoopapa]

I'm a little worried about the emphasis on "spammable" in this thread. We obviously need to leave room for Parting Shot in the moveset but we also need to leave room for it in the strategy. "Spammable" isn't required for "good" and it also makes it a lot easier for this CAP to run Choice sets that only need to worry about choosing between two moves. Choice sets would hurt this CAP's ability to fulfill its concept because it removes our ability to use it basically every time we switch out. If the primary goal of this CAP is to spam Dark- Fairy- or Flying-type moves when it's counters are broken down then we may end up with a pokemon that puts Parting Shot in it's moveset but rarely ever uses it. A pokemon with amazing coverage is also going to lure out the bulky walls that Parting Shot isn't so good against.

What I would recommend is that we should leave some gaps in our STAB coverage, but choose them strategically so that they include pokemon that Parting Shot can disrupt. Focus on hitting the pokemon Parting Shot is useless against rather than taking out the most top threats. We can make sure the pokemon doesn't suck in future stages, so we are better off focusing on Parting Shot specifically than general strongness of two-move coverage. Merely good will suffice.

Edit: An example of what I'm thinking, I took a look at the Moveset Viability Ranking thread to make a judgement on what pokemon would care less about Parting Shot. These are pokemon that are bulky and make use of hazard control / status rather than direct attacking. I'm came up with Fire/Ground as a combination that seems to target these pokemon. Both are good offensive types, but both are punishable if you are locked in. It gives us an advantageous matchup against a majority of support pokemon above C-rank. I'm basing this on the viability thread; I'll list good, bad, and neutral matchups versus support/defensive pokemon to show what I'm talking about. These lists may include pokemon whose better sets are offensive, but those are not what I'm talking about here.

lists

The "good matchup" list is: Aurumoth, Clefable, Charizard-X, Sableye, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Jirachi, Mollux, Skarmory, Fidgit, Necturna, Excadrill, Klefki, Celebi, Kitsunoh, Amoongus, Dragalge, Malaconda, and Tyranitar. Support sets which Fire/Ground has a bad matchup against are: Garchomp, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Starmie, Slowbro, Hippowdon, and Alomamola. Neutral matchups are: Tomohawk and Pyroak.

Some of those bad matchups would be easy to patch up with an ability, or with a certain coverage move (one move in the game hits all of them SE). Many of them are 3-attacks 1 support pokemon against whom Parting Shot still isn't useless. Fire/Ground also hits the "liability mons" people were worried about such as Aurumoth, Cawmodore, and Bisharp.

 

[snake]

I'm a little worried about the emphasis on "spammable" in this thread. We obviously need to leave room for Parting Shot in the moveset but we also need to leave room for it in the strategy. "Spammable" isn't required for "good" and it also makes it a lot easier for this CAP to run Choice sets that only need to worry about choosing between two moves. Choice sets would hurt this CAP's ability to fulfill its concept because it removes our ability to use it basically every time we switch out. If the primary goal of this CAP is to spam Dark- Fairy- or Flying-type moves when it's counters are broken down then we may end up with a pokemon that puts Parting Shot in it's moveset but rarely ever uses it. A pokemon with amazing coverage is also going to lure out the bulky walls that Parting Shot isn't so good against.

What I would recommend is that we should leave some gaps in our STAB coverage, but choose them strategically so that they include pokemon that Parting Shot can disrupt. Focus on hitting the pokemon Parting Shot is useless against rather than taking out the most top threats. We can make sure the pokemon doesn't suck in future stages, so we are better off focusing on Parting Shot specifically than general strongness of two-move coverage. Merely good will suffice.

I disagree. We need good neutral coverage on our STAB moves. Otherwise, CAP22 could opt to run 4 attacking moves to get the coverage it wants instead of running Parting Shot. By getting good coverage with 2 or 3 moves, we encourage users to run Parting Shot on CAP22. If we get really good neutral coverage on our STAB moves, CAP22 /could/ run a status move alongside Parting Shot.

 

[Scoopapa]

I disagree. We need good neutral coverage on our STAB moves. Otherwise, CAP22 could opt to run 4 attacking moves to get the coverage it wants instead of running Parting Shot. By getting good coverage with 2 or 3 moves, we encourage users to run Parting Shot on CAP22. If we get really good neutral coverage on our STAB moves, CAP22 /could/ run a status move alongside Parting Shot.

I never said that we shouldn't have good coverage. I just said we are going overboard, and that "spammable" is not something we want. You are also making assumptions about the movepool; one easy way to ensure the pokemon doesn't run 2 coverage moves is not to give it the 2 coverage moves we are afraid of.

 

[Project_Mars]

The way I am seeing us wanting to build CAP is two STAB moves + Parting Shot + a move to help force switches, since the role is to come in, scare something out, then tag out. The last move on the list could be multiple things, like another coverage move, status moves like Wisp, or somthing that would disrupt the opposing pokemon's plans, like Taunt. Again: I don't think we need as wide an umbrella of STAB coverage some are arguing for, we just need good relevant STAB coverage and to make sure that it doesn't have a hard time switching in. We should probably make it desirable for a couple of types of pokemon to want to switch in, sure, since that will help ouy with the stated goal of forcing switches. (As long as Bisharp stays out.)

Which is probably partially why Fairy/X and Fighting/X combos are common suggestions. They have coverage against some relevant things while being fairly stellar from a defensive standpoint. They have benefits that a pokemon who wants to switch out multiple times would enjoy (both resist dark type attacks and fighting resists SR) while providing decent attacking capabilities. (Arguably fairy more than fighting) So they do have their attractive qualities, it is just that they fall short on Super Effective coverage. This doesn't really pose a problem, imo, since I think we can make up for that later in a way that would stick with the moveset plan.

I'll go more indepth on my thoughts on the submitted typings after work, may suggest another typing as well.

 

[snake]

I never said that we shouldn't have good coverage. I just said we are going overboard, and that "spammable" is not something we want. You are also making assumptions about the movepool; one easy way to ensure the pokemon doesn't run 2 coverage moves is not to give it the 2 coverage moves we are afraid of.

Except what happens is: "hey's give CAP22 coverage move 1 for a, b, and c threats!"
Then: "how about we give CAP 22 coverage move 2 for X, y, and z threats!"

What stops both moves being run? Unless you want to give it one coverage move, which forces CAP22 to be severly one dimensional. Not that this is bad, but I don't think this is favorable, especially when we have the tools to make a diverse Pokemon.

The way I am seeing us wanting to build CAP is two STAB moves + Parting Shot + a move to help force switches, since the role is to come in, scare something out, then tag out. The last move on the list could be multiple things, like another coverage move, status moves like Wisp, or somthing that would disrupt the opposing pokemon's plans, like Taunt.

Honestly this is what I'd like to see on CAP22, but that's just me.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

-Moderator Announcement-

I just want to take a time to briefly say that our primary course of action should NOT be purposely limiting our coverage in order to "get parting shot on a moveset." We should be building a Pokemon that wants to fairly regularly use Parting Shot because it is a good move, not because it's the only option it has. Furthermore, excessively talking about Non-STAB moves (coverage types) is Poll Jumping and should not be done. I don't think anyone has fully crossed the line of this, but there have been some borderline cases already.

I would also very much like more posts here to deal with how a proposed typing helps out our specific concept. Having great STABs in the metagame is a generically helpful attribute. I'm not saying it shouldn't be considered, but don't post lists of "X STABs help against X mons" if you're not going to relate it back to parting shot specifically.

Lastly, I've deleted multiple posts that show inadequate or inaccurate knowledge of the CAP metagame and several others that just don't say anything useful for the discussion. So uhh.... Don't make these kinds of posts.

 

[sparktrain]

I'll chip in with my thoughts.

Ground vs Fighting: So I'm grouping these two together. Why? Because in many ways, they're really quite similar in how they support the concept, and I think it's important to distinguish the more unique defining traits between the two. Looking at the posts in the thread so far (not to mention the discussions on PS), both of these typings have been paired with several other typings (they're both been paired with Ice and Fairy for example), and upon a brief inspection, it's not too hard to see why. Both offer a resistance to Stealth Rock, which is certainly nice for a Pokemon that's going to be pivoting around with Parting Shot. Both offer a super effective hit against certain Steel-types; however, the specific targets are what vary between these two, and I think that's perhaps the most important distinguishing factor to consider moving forward. Fighting gets a SE hit against Ferrothorn, a problem for VoltTurn teams due to its typing, bulk, and ability. Ground on the other hand offers some neat benefits, notably an Electric immunity, which blocks Volt Switch and provides CAP 22 with an opportunity to switch in and grab momentum, not to mention it has some nice two-move coverage with some of the other proposed typings so far. So again, we should definitely look more into specific targets with these two typings and analyze how well they synergize with other primary/secondary typings.

Fairy: Alright, something I keep hearing from multiple people in this thread is that "Fairy doesn't get good super-effective coverage, just neutral coverage in tandem with [x]-type" or something along those lines, and I'm actually genuinely confused by this sentiment, so I'm going to address it. Even if you're unfamiliar with the metagame, if you're willing to do just a small bit of research, you'll find that a quick skim of the CAP VR, usage stats, or even just watching some CAPTT replays shows that there are plenty of top Pokemon that are weak to Fairy. As a result, I'm not really buying into the argument that Fairy + (secondary type) is only good for neutral coverage and/or wouldn't be able to force switches very well; I'm inclined to believe the opposite. That being said, I think the next step here is to consider the unique threats that Fairy does offer strong coverage against in comparison to the other types being suggested. Are VoltTurn teams already capable of sufficiently pressuring said threats? Are there other threats that are a bigger issue that would be better addressed by a different typing?

Ice: Ice, like Fairy, is also a really nice offensive type to consider, hitting Ground-types like Colossoil, Garchomp, and Landorus-T super effectively, all of which threaten to put a damper on Volt Switch users, not to mention it gets good SE coverage overall. That being said, it does introduce a weakness to Stealth Rock (though this can be neutralized with a secondary typing, as seen in some of the type pairings suggested so far). Also, as a (presumably) speedy Ice-type pivot, it would naturally face competition from one of the top Pokemon found on CAP VoltTurn teams, Syclant. For example, if we went with Ice/Ground, that mirrors Syclant's existing coverage pretty closely. If Syclant is able to force roughly the same switches as CAP 22, as well being able to force switches with STAB U-turn (which Parting Shot obviously cannot do by itself), it becomes more difficult to justify CAP 22's inclusion on a team. Of course, there are plenty of other opportunities CAP 22 will have to differentiate itself later on in the creation process (ability, stats, AND movepool), but it's just something to keep in the back of our mind as we move forward.

Lastly...

On Bisharp: I've brought this up both on PS! and on IRC, and I'll bring it up again here. I feel like some people are overstating the importance of "beating Bisharp" with the typing. Of course, the risk of using Parting Shot on Bisharp switch-in is kind of a big deal since you have to deal with the threat of a +3 Sucker Punch the next turn, so creating a Pokemon that just lets Bisharp in for free really isn't the best way to address the concept. However, the way we should be addressing it should be just that: making sure Bisharp doesn't get in for free. We don't necessarily have to be able to switch into Bisharp reliably, and there are many ways we can ensure it's hesitant to switch into CAP 22. Having SE STAB is obviously one of them; but there are other methods that can also be explored later (namely during the movepool stage with coverage/utility, not gonna go in-depth here since typing is our sole focus at the moment).

Now, this isn't meant to imply that Bisharp isn't an important factor for us to consider, it just shouldn't be our main focus-- there are a multitude of other variables for us to be considering. Think along the lines of common stops to prevalent VoltTurn Pokemon and strategies, as well as how this Pokemon is going to synergize with its presumed teammates. Which kinds of Pokemon will CAP 22 be drawing in with its typing and using Parting Shot on? Which specific teammates would benefit from the Atk/SpA drops provided by this move? Any particular setup sweepers? Any additional momentum grabbers?

This is all the time I have right now, and there were plenty of typings I didn't touch on, so I'll probably be commenting more later. Think about the questions above when it comes to making or arguing for or against typing suggestions-- and don't be afraid to take it a step further either! We'll be able to understand and analyze the benefits and drawbacks of each typing more deeply this way, which will hopefully lead to a more informed final decision when it comes time for the poll.

 

[SHSP]

A few more of my thoughts:

On what Parting Shot helps set up- talking on PS with a few people last night, a couple of ideas came up about this. A big idea we had was substitute users and set up mons like BD Azumarill, where mons that could normally break a sub or kill from 50% might not at -1, which could be massive for those mons. I haven't thought much on this line, but im sure frailer set up sweepers like Hawlucha, M-Pinsir and (albeit rare compared to other sets) SD Breloom all appreciate a nerfed attack coming their way as well.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

While I like the number of different typings I've seen thus far, I'm going to agree with HeaLnDeaL that there really hasn't been enough discussion on how many proposed typings synergize with Parting Shot. Korski's post on Fire/Steel is an excellent example of the type of post I'd like to see, explaining how specific threats are affected by the typing and how that in turn affects use of Parting Shot.

Furthermore, I'm going to springboard off of sparktrain's post and elaborate on a few trends I've seen.

Fairy: I'm pretty much in agreement with sparktrain here. Considering that the most ubiquitous Pokémon in the metagame (Tomohawk, Colossoil, Cyclohm) are all weak to Fairy, I'm really not sure where the argument that Fairy doesn't have sufficient super effective coverage is coming from. Specific targets and synergy with other typings and Parting Shot should be the next step.

Fire: So far, this type has been seen coupled with another type to negate its weakness to Stealth Rock. Offensively, it's effective against many common Steel-types, such as Bisharp and Cawmodore, and Bug-types, such as Aurumoth. Defensively, I'm mainly seeing burn immunity and resistances to Fairy, Bug, and Steel being touted. As sparktrain pointed out in his post, it should be elaborated what threats Fire typings can deal with the others cannot. Generally speaking, it would also be helpful to elaborate on if/how existing VoltTurn cores may not be able to deal with the threats that a Fire-type (or any type, for that matter) CAP 22 could hypothetically handle.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

I didn't intend to post here, simply because I don't feel experienced enough in the CAP process.


After some thought, I decided I might have be able to contribute.
I'm going to touch on some prominent suggested typings:

Fairy/Ground: As an offensive mon this typing would tear CAP asunder, however we are leaning more towards a utility mon that can threaten selected targets from my understanding. This would be an incredible typing for a set-up sweeper or wall breaker; but as a pivot, I'm just not sure on this one. It does resist U-Turn and stops Volt Switch, but we want a good pivot that fits Volt-Turn not a counter to Volt-Turn. This typing could have a negative effect on the meta IMO.

Grass/Steel: I like this typing as a pivot and DK brought up some very good points about this typing, read his post. Being able to handle residual damage is a big thing for a pivot and Grass/Steel does this very well. Having Grass Stab is actually good here because we can threaten the ground types that prevent Volt Switches and usually eat up U-Turns. Grass/Steel also has the benefit of luring in a distinct group of Pokemon since it is a very good typing defensively. It would pair extremely well with water types.

Fire/Steel: A lot of what I mentioned for the Grass/Steel typing is applied to this typing. In fact, I actually suggest making a mon with a 4x weakness. It makes CAP22 a much more efficient lure, giving more opportunities to actually use Parting Shot.


Fairy/Fighting: Is a good typing offensively, but again we want a pivot that can threaten selected threats and not the entire meta. However, this typing does pressure enough things and will force switches. While not being too potent like Fairy/Ground.

I support almost anything Steel because of its resistance to residual damage which is important for something that wants to switch a lot. Ideally we want a mon that can switch in multiple times without worrying about hazards and being resistant to other forms of residual damage is a plus. As for what typing this should be, I am not decided. Just trying to get some conversation going. There are three types that are resilient to Stealth Rocks: Fighting, Ground, and Steel. This is where we should begin looking for a primary typing, just my opinion.

 

[Scoopapa]

I'll make a positive argument for a type I think would be good and we'll see if my principles for choosing are really that hopeless and tragic.

I think that Fire/Ground would be a great type for this CAP to have. It specifically targets most of the pokemon that like to wall offensive threats and set up hazard support or inflict status. Both are strong offensive types, and cover some of each other's weaknesses, but at the same time neither one is ideal for a Choice set. By targeting support mons we ensure that almost every situaton that will force us to switch is one that Parting Shot will be useful in. The last thing we want to do is get a hazards disadvantage or let our switch-in get statused while we uselessly click Parting Shot. We want to be using Parting Shot on switches and attacks as much as possible.

Taking a look at the CAP Role Compedium, Fire/Ground hits every Spikes and Toxic Spikes user on that thread. The best Sticky Web user gets hit ( Necturna ) and the other is Shuckle. Stopping every Stealth Rock user is a pipe dream, but about half of them are weak to Fire or Ground. Of the rest, only one rare one can't be hit neutrally upon switching in. So a Fire/Ground CAP22 is not likely going to have hazards set up on it for free. Some Ground-type SR setters could still get in after a kill, on a good predict, or if they are EV'ed to take the side we are attacking from.

When it comes to hazard removal Fire/Ground hits about half of Defoggers and Spinners super effectively, but only Lati@s actually walls Fire/Ground and removes hazards. So there is a low chance that a Fire/Ground CAP would let your hazards get removed for free. There are some Water-types on this list that would force Fire/Ground out, but they aren't walls that can necessarily take two strong neutral STAB hits.

Fire/Ground is immune to Burn and Paralysis, the latter of which is very important for a fast pivot. Walling or threatening all status users is also a pipe dream. Immunity to two of them is a nice, though. Furthermore, Spore/Sleep Powder users all don't like Fire. Fire/Ground would allow CAP to shut down or threaten users of a majority of support moves that could otherwise be used as a free turn against Parting Shot. This makes it very strong for our concept.

Fire/Ground also doesn't suck. As far as S-rank mons go, we beat Aurumoth, are advantaged defensively against Clefable, and are neutral against Tomohawk. About 43% of A and B rank mons are hit super-effectively by Fire or Ground, according to the Viability Ranking Thread. This means Fire/Ground can definitely force switches. The gaps in this coverage include Levitate users and Flying-types with types that resist Fire, such as Gyarados, Lati@s, and Stratagem, all of whom Parting Shot is effective against.

Defensively we have:

Resists: Poison / Fire / Steel / Bug / Fairy
Immunities: Electric
Weaknesses: Ground / Water (4x)

Not bad. This discourages slow U-turn or Volt Switch, another tactic that messes with a fast Parting Shot. It also pairs great with Rotom-W (Volt Switch) and recieves U-turns from the likes of Scizor and Mega-Beedrill. Fire/Ground isn't the ideal TurnSwitch partner, but it isn't terrible either. Landorus-T can take Ground but not Water, and Volt Switch users can threaten Water-types but don't like Ground.

In summary, Fire/Ground is a typing that will be hard for pokemon who don't mind Parting Shot to deal with. It's strong and metagame relevant enough to force switches. The counters that switch in won't be laughing at a drop to their attacking stats. It's resistances outnumber it's weaknesses significantly so it should be easy to fit on a team and also find some opportunities to switch in.

 

[snake]

I'm going to go off of sparktrain's post for my thoughts now that I'm on my computer (though my points will be in a different order). This post is not to dismiss other typings.

Fairy vs. Ice:
I've touched on this one in an earlier post, but here's a quick summary of my thoughts. While both Fairy and Ice hit common VoltTurn punishers (Rocky Helmet Tomohawk, Static Cyclohm, Tank Garchomp, and Colossoil), Fairy offers better defensive utility, boasting resistances to Knock Off and common coverage moves from these Pokemon like Aura Sphere and Fire Blast. In addition, it differentiates CAP22 significantly from Syclant, as another offensive, pivoting Ice-type will give CAP22 competition. With Fairy typing, we get a Pokemon that can be run alongside Syclant competing for a teamslot.

To answer sparktrain's question of:

Are VoltTurn teams already capable of sufficiently pressuring said threats?

The most notable example of a Pokemon that fits on a Voltturn team that is capable of taking out all of these threats is Syclant. However, it is extremely frail and has to choose between Life Orb or Focus Sash. The former gives it great power, but it cuts into its longevity, which may not seem too important at first, but one has to keep in mind that it only takes 3 round of Life Orb damage before Colossoil and Tomohawk hve a very good chance of taking it out with priority Sucker Punch a Nature Power, respectively. The latter item gives it a chance to survive an attack but makes it very difficult to use U-turn effectively in fear of Rocky Helmet and Iron Barbs/Rough Skin. Thus, especially because some combination of those 4 Pokemon often appear together as teammates, Syclant is unreliable at fully pressuring these threats, as it will normally be able to take out one VoltTurn punisher, but not the other.

Ground vs. Fighting
Both help with Fairy's Steel-type checks and counters and offer a resistance to Stealth Rock, but they are very different all the same. However, Fairy/Fighting is much more pro-concept than Fairy/Ground:

Ground, in conjunction with Fairy, attains mostly neutral coverage, a near immunity to paralysis (important because CAP22 will be a fast Pokemon), and stops opposing Volt Switch from Mega Manectric if we end up being slower than it. These are great pros. However, it really doesn't lure in anything by its typing. We want CAP22 to force switches in order to use Parting Shot optimally, and if we end up with a type that doesn't lure in a specific type and set of Pokemon, we fail this concept. Fairy/Ground is a "generically good typing" and doesn't fit this concept exactly.

Fighting, on the other hand, in conjunction with Fairy, lures in Poison-types, Mega Charizard Y, Talonflame, and Scizor, which we can then use Parting Shot on to switch to teammate. It is important that CAP22 lures in a defined list of Pokemon into the battlefield in order to use Parting Shot most optimally as a FPS. It also gets great coverage alongside Fairy and offers CAP22 a 4x resist to Dark-type moves. Fighting-type also hits Ferrothorn, a less common VoltTurn punisher.

Fairy/Fighting is my favorite now. It has excellent neutral AND super effective coverage. It punishes many common and relevant VoltTurn punishers. It has useful resistances to Dark, Bug, Fighting, and most importantly, Rock and an immunity to Dragon. Though it has some very relevant weaknesses in Fairy, Psychic, Flying, Poison, and Steel, it can pivot out of these Pokemon and has great offensive coverage otherwise. This typing is also very pro-concept given a defined set of switch-ins, particularly Poison-types.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Ground, in conjunction with Fairy, attains mostly neutral coverage, a near immunity to paralysis (important because CAP22 will be a fast Pokemon), and stops opposing Volt Switch from Mega Manectric if we end up being slower than it. These are great pros. However, it really doesn't lure in anything by its typing. We want CAP22 to force switches in order to use Parting Shot optimally, and if we end up with a type that doesn't lure in a specific type and set of Pokemon, we fail this concept. Fairy/Ground is a "generically good typing" and doesn't fit this concept exactly.

Fairy/Fighting is my favorite now. It has excellent neutral AND super effective coverage. It punishes many common and relevant VoltTurn punishers. It has useful resistances to Dark, Bug, Fighting, and most importantly, Rock and an immunity to Dragon. Though it has some very relevant weaknesses in Fairy, Psychic, Flying, Poison, and Steel, it can pivot out of these Pokemon and has great offensive coverage otherwise. This typing is also very pro-concept given a defined set of switch-ins, particularly Poison-types.

This is a confusing sentiment. The mons in the CAP megagame that Fighting hits super effectively are Colossoil, Stratagem, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Kyurem-Black, Mamoswine, Chansey, and Mega Lopunny. Of those, Stratagem, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Mamoswine, and Chansey are the only ones that weren't already weak to Fairy. Fairy/Fighting is absolutely terrible at securing super effective coverage. It's actually not significantly better than Fairy with no coverage moves. Compare this to the "neutral" option of Ground, which adds not only the Heatran, but Volkraken, Krillowat, Mollux, Plasmanta, Kitsunoh, Jirachi, Mega-Diancie, Mega-Metagross, Mega-Manetric, Charizard-X and more. That's already double the added super effective coverage Fighting gets.

I would say that that, in fact, Fighting/Fairy is actually the typing that goes only for neutral coverage, but that's not really true either. Fairy/Fighting gets hard walled by Poison types, which is a solid chunk of the metagame right now, not even getting into things like Kitsunoh which inflates the number of mons this typing is awful against.. In fact, I'd argue your point on Fairy/Fighting is completely backwards. It has bad neutral coverage, and super effective coverage not that much significantly better than mono-Fairy.

 

[Deck Knight]

I think my biggest problem with Fire/Ground is how bad it is at handling Colossoil (this applies to any type with Soil problems, really). One of the most common Colossoil sets is AV Colossoil which will easily wall a specially-oriented CAP, and physically-oriented CAP will lose an EQ war and Flare Blitz will drain CAP fast due to Soil's high HP.

It's crazy, but if you look at the usage stats one of the best things you can throw in front of Colossoil is Bug/Fairy because it doesn't run Stone Edge enough to break out of "Other." Of the "Big 3" in CAP of Tomohawk, Cyclohm, and Colossoil I think Soil should be our top concern. Every Soil set is offensive in nature. Even the AV Set runs Max Attack Adamant. Tomohawk and Cyclohm's sets are more split. I think where Fairy/Fighting edges out Fairy/Ground is that Cyclohm runs Ice Beam, whereas Fairy/Ground is all around better at dealing with Tomohawk because all hawks run Flying STAB. Fairy/Ground is also better at handling Crucibelle by being weak to Un-STABBED Wood Hammer instead of STAB Gunk Shot. Tomohawk sets are more split, Cyclohm sets are mostly defensive.

There's only one more type I want to bring up before I switch more to focusing the discussion Steel/Fairy.

We all know Steel/Fairy is fantastic typing on paper and in practice. Something with no offensive presence and only the ability to be annoying in Klefki manages to break into OU with this typing. Mega Mawile of course had it and was banned from play. For this Pokemon it provides the offensive edge it needs to threaten Cyclohm/Tomohawk and Colossoil even though it is weak to their common coverage and STAB respectively. It's not nearly as strong offensively as its counterpart Ground/Fairy, but the change in weaknesses is certainly welcome.

I don't think we should shy away from a typing like this just because it might be considered to outshine the concept. It is good for aiding our concept in doing what we want it to do, provides nearly all of the things we want typing to provide, and clearly has precedent as being an effective metagame typing. If anything with Mollux and Pyroak around it is distinctively weaker than in OU and it does have issues facing those two Pokemon. Notably though, Steel/Fairy/Ground coverage exceeds at threatening at least Mollux, and having Pyroak as a defensive counter is my no means bad for our concept. Pyroak almost never invests offensively and will lose the ability to break many sweeper Substitutes at -1.

What I ultimately want to bring this down to is focusing not on describing the types but assessing how they best aid the concept. I think a multitude of out Fairy type concepts do this, I think it's a matter of debate whether to go pure offensive, which I think Fairy/Fighting does, go more neutral like I think Fairy/Ground does, or go more defensive which I think Fairy/Steel and Steel/Grass do.

 

[jjay554]

I'd like to further explain why I still think Ice/Ground is a fantastic typing for CAP 22. While it's no secret that ice has been a great offensive type since it's introduction, I'd like to focus on why it's so great for the concept of CAP 22 specifically. Ice will allow our new pokemon to hit colossoil for super effective on the switch, which would otherwise love to take a parting shot. Ground is in a similar situation where it can nail diance (an underused but amazing mon in CAP) for super effective on the switch. For those who are also worried about defiant users the stab combination hits both of the viable users in the tier for super effective.

Now, with all these fantastic things that the typing does for pairing offensively with parting shot, there is also a few other benefits it provides. In a similar vein to landorus ground allows our pokemon to switch into an electric move to ease when it can come in and pivot, without the nasty x4 weakness to ice. Lastly, I think the reason so many of us are worried about having a pokemon with superb coverage all comes down to one thing: momentum. Having an unresisted stab combination allows you to force your opponent more often than other type combinations would. The reason this is so great for our pokemon specifically is because with so much offensive pressure, you can pivot out and gain even more momentum. This would allow you to be in control of the game and make parting shot a great strategy in the metagame.

 

[Alfalfa]

While Ground / Fairy may hit a lot of Pokemon super effectively, Imanalt brought up a good point how a Ground / Fairy CAP would have to compete heavily with Landorus-T. I find that most people overlook this point, for while the Fairy typing does help offensively against threats to VoltTurn teams, having to compete with Landorus-T is not an easy battle to win. In reality, we can all talk about how most mons are weak to the dual typing, but having to compete with one of the common Pokemon on VoltTurn is not a drawback our CAP should even have to deal with. We have fully discussed the offensive potential about Ground / Fairy, but we also need to discuss whether or not hitting all of these mons super effectively is worth competing against a staple on the teams our CAP is supposed to fit on.

I think many of our proposed typings are based on two different metrics; hitting most of the metagame super effectively, or hitting common threats to VoltTurn super effectively. Let me take the typing I proposed, Electric / Fighting, for example. I was fully aware that there were going to be a handful of Pokemon that could resist the dual STAB combo, but I was also aware that it was not completely set in stone that our CAP was going to be walled by these mons at this point. It is true that I intended towards targeting the metagame rather than targeting threats to VoltTurn, but I was focused on being able to beat Tomohawk and Bisharp and being able to bait in and hit Landorus-T with Parting Shot, though having solid matchups against Ferrothorn and Colossoil are pretty important for a mon that is going to fit on a VoltTurn team (and the only mons that resist Electric / Fighting that do not care about Parting Shot are Fidgit and Amoonguss, who we still have other CAP stages to work on to beat them). Defensively, I was focused on resisting Bisharp's STABs while resisting Stealth Rock, being neutral to Flying-type attacks to deal with Tomohawk and Talonflame, and being completely immune to Paralysis, all of which I considered valuable for CAP 22. Yes, I knew there were many holes offensively, but those holes were not difficult to fill in and the possession of the defensive traits it has and the important threats it covers were the primary reason why I chose Electric / Fighting as my typing.

Now take a metric like Ground / Fairy, for example. CAPwise, it hits every threat to VoltTurn super effectively except for Ferrothorn, and hits many other important Pokemon super effectively. However, defensively, it also has a number of exploitable weaknesses, and may have difficulties fitting on the teams we want it to be used on because it is very similar defensively to Landorus-T. Yes, it resists both Sucker Punch and Stealth Rock, and has key resistances, neutralities, and immunities, but being weak to Bullet Punch and Scald is also of concern to me, though our CAP is likely not going to be staying in long on any Pokemon that carries Scald. This typing focuses more on threats to VoltTurn, but also has defensive capabilities that make it compete with the most common threats on VoltTurn. You can argue about the offensive volatility, but I would at least to see some discussion on the possibility of our CAP having to compete with Landorus-T for a teamslot, for Lando-T is a fairly important Pokemon and we cannot dismiss this possibility as simply not going to occur without considering it.