CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

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At this point we should probably be looking at prioritizing what goals we want this typing to accomplish.
Obviously we want it to switch in and force Pokemon out, but beyond that what are some goals that we should look for our typing to do, or not do, to help the goal? I think some goals we should be looking at:

- Preventing Bisharp from coming in easily.
- Clear defensive faults that can ease predictions
- Able to help VoltTurn deal with current issues
- Immunity to at least one type
- Immunity to at least one status
- Resistance to Stealth Rock
- Resistance to most priority
- Resistance to Pursuit
- Able to keep common Hazard Setters from switching/staying in
- Able to keep common set-up Pokemon from switching/staying in.

Honestly, this list is not meant to be something that covers ALL of what PS'mon's typing should do, just what I think we should look at when deciding what it can accomplish. We still have a while to go in building this CAP, and most things mentioned in that list are things that could be handled just fine at another point in the process.

I think typings involving Fairy and Steel typings are fairly pro-concept since they do afford for several safe switch-ins, especially depending on the secondary typing. Type combos listed so far that I do think are good are: Fairy/Ground, Electric/Fighting, Fairy/Electric, Fairy/Steel, and Fire/Steel
 
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I'll chip in with my thoughts.

Ground vs Fighting: So I'm grouping these two together. Why? Because in many ways, they're really quite similar in how they support the concept, and I think it's important to distinguish the more unique defining traits between the two. Looking at the posts in the thread so far (not to mention the discussions on PS), both of these typings have been paired with several other typings (they're both been paired with Ice and Fairy for example), and upon a brief inspection, it's not too hard to see why. Both offer a resistance to Stealth Rock, which is certainly nice for a Pokemon that's going to be pivoting around with Parting Shot. Both offer a super effective hit against certain Steel-types; however, the specific targets are what vary between these two, and I think that's perhaps the most important distinguishing factor to consider moving forward. Fighting gets a SE hit against Ferrothorn, a problem for VoltTurn teams due to its typing, bulk, and ability. Ground on the other hand offers some neat benefits, notably an Electric immunity, which blocks Volt Switch and provides CAP 22 with an opportunity to switch in and grab momentum, not to mention it has some nice two-move coverage with some of the other proposed typings so far. So again, we should definitely look more into specific targets with these two typings and analyze how well they synergize with other primary/secondary typings.

Fairy: Alright, something I keep hearing from multiple people in this thread is that "Fairy doesn't get good super-effective coverage, just neutral coverage in tandem with [x]-type" or something along those lines, and I'm actually genuinely confused by this sentiment, so I'm going to address it. Even if you're unfamiliar with the metagame, if you're willing to do just a small bit of research, you'll find that a quick skim of the CAP VR, usage stats, or even just watching some CAPTT replays shows that there are plenty of top Pokemon that are weak to Fairy. As a result, I'm not really buying into the argument that Fairy + (secondary type) is only good for neutral coverage and/or wouldn't be able to force switches very well; I'm inclined to believe the opposite. That being said, I think the next step here is to consider the unique threats that Fairy does offer strong coverage against in comparison to the other types being suggested. Are VoltTurn teams already capable of sufficiently pressuring said threats? Are there other threats that are a bigger issue that would be better addressed by a different typing?

Ice: Ice, like Fairy, is also a really nice offensive type to consider, hitting Ground-types like Colossoil, Garchomp, and Landorus-T super effectively, all of which threaten to put a damper on Volt Switch users, not to mention it gets good SE coverage overall. That being said, it does introduce a weakness to Stealth Rock (though this can be neutralized with a secondary typing, as seen in some of the type pairings suggested so far). Also, as a (presumably) speedy Ice-type pivot, it would naturally face competition from one of the top Pokemon found on CAP VoltTurn teams, Syclant. For example, if we went with Ice/Ground, that mirrors Syclant's existing coverage pretty closely. If Syclant is able to force roughly the same switches as CAP 22, as well being able to force switches with STAB U-turn (which Parting Shot obviously cannot do by itself), it becomes more difficult to justify CAP 22's inclusion on a team. Of course, there are plenty of other opportunities CAP 22 will have to differentiate itself later on in the creation process (ability, stats, AND movepool), but it's just something to keep in the back of our mind as we move forward.

Lastly...

On Bisharp: I've brought this up both on PS! and on IRC, and I'll bring it up again here. I feel like some people are overstating the importance of "beating Bisharp" with the typing. Of course, the risk of using Parting Shot on Bisharp switch-in is kind of a big deal since you have to deal with the threat of a +3 Sucker Punch the next turn, so creating a Pokemon that just lets Bisharp in for free really isn't the best way to address the concept. However, the way we should be addressing it should be just that: making sure Bisharp doesn't get in for free. We don't necessarily have to be able to switch into Bisharp reliably, and there are many ways we can ensure it's hesitant to switch into CAP 22. Having SE STAB is obviously one of them; but there are other methods that can also be explored later (namely during the movepool stage with coverage/utility, not gonna go in-depth here since typing is our sole focus at the moment).

Now, this isn't meant to imply that Bisharp isn't an important factor for us to consider, it just shouldn't be our main focus-- there are a multitude of other variables for us to be considering. Think along the lines of common stops to prevalent VoltTurn Pokemon and strategies, as well as how this Pokemon is going to synergize with its presumed teammates. Which kinds of Pokemon will CAP 22 be drawing in with its typing and using Parting Shot on? Which specific teammates would benefit from the Atk/SpA drops provided by this move? Any particular setup sweepers? Any additional momentum grabbers?

This is all the time I have right now, and there were plenty of typings I didn't touch on, so I'll probably be commenting more later. Think about the questions above when it comes to making or arguing for or against typing suggestions-- and don't be afraid to take it a step further either! We'll be able to understand and analyze the benefits and drawbacks of each typing more deeply this way, which will hopefully lead to a more informed final decision when it comes time for the poll.
Why exactly are we building this for a voltturn team? Is there any particular reason this has to cater to voltturn cores? Haven't we done cores enough already? I apologize if this is not what you intended to say, but in the section about fairy you state we should talk about how fairy type benefits voltturn.

As for Bisharp, as long as CAP22 isn't Bisharp bait it'll be fine. So as long as it isn't weak to it, and as long as it has any move, STAB or coverage, that can deal a decent enough chunk of damage to Bisharp, Bisharp won't want to come in.

Which kinds of Pokemon will CAP 22 be drawing in with its typing and using Parting Shot on?

I'll answer this with my proposals Water/Fairy and Electric/Fairy.

Cawmodore is a potential switchin to Water/Fairy, unless CAP22 is special attacking, and especially not if it is scald spamming. Cawmodore has Volt Absorb, so switching into Electric/Fairy isn't a big deal for it either, but the benefit of this is you can easily pivot to your Skarmory/Quagsire/etc. The thing is, whether they switch into cawm or not, whether they switch out of cawm or not, you still gain momentum.

Mollux is fine switching in to either with its water immunity, 1/4 fairy resistance, and high bulk. Mollux will definitely be an answer. If choice specs mollux, that special attack drop will hurt it's damage by a lot, and you can easily switch to your sweeper. Most Mollux sets are pretty offensive, so this is an easy way to cripple it until it switches, and the utility sets are mostly setup bait for your sweepers.

Landorus-Therian would like to pivot into Electric/Fairy, and as annoying as Landorus-t can be, hampering its damage and allowing yourself an easy switchin to your Landorus check is a huge help. Even shaky checks can be full counters with the damage reduction from parting shot.
If Water/Fairy Landorus won't want to switch in, but baiting Landorus-Therian isn't too important, but it is helpful.

Krillowatt wouldn't mind coming in on either set. It has electric moves for water, and ground moves for electric, so with either combo, it's easy shrimp bait. Krillowatt's damage was never that impressive in the first place, even with a life orb, but the parting shot debuff makes the threat value extremely low, allowing for an easy setup on your sweeper.

Necturna wouldn't mind coming either, and necturna sets can vary so much, having a pivot to bait it and switch out is pretty helpful.

Volkraken (volcanion too tbh) is pretty bulky and wouldn't mind coming in on Water/Fairy CAP22, and Volkraken boasts a high special attack stat that's hard to switch into, especially with the analytic boost, but with parting shot's debuff, but once it's power is cut with parting shot, it's not so scary anymore.

Electric/Fairy could also bait out Crucibelle and switch to the proper answer, and crucibelle isn't so powerful at -1.

Pyroak wouldn't mind its STABs either way with its bulk, although parting shot debuff makes the SD set pitiful when it can only get to +1, and seed set is easily dealt with through pivoting.

Megagross would probably be a pretty common switchin, especially pre-mega to block the debuff, but metagross is still dealt with through the proper switchin. If post mega, the debuff is on both stats, so slowbro is safe to switch in even if it runs GK.

Ferrothorn would have an easy time switching in, but you can also easily parting shot straight to your magnezone.

Heatran would happily switchin to Electric/Fairy, and if utility Heatran, it becomes straight-up setup bait after the debuff. If offensive, then with the debuff, a lot more pokemon can safely tank it's hits and counter it than before. It's like a temporary assault vest for your colossoil!

Plasmanta is the obvious switchin here, resisting fairy and electric, and being immune to water, plus getting a boost off of it. Although it won't be setup bait due to taunt and haze, it is not very fearsme at -1 with only poison/electric/hidden power coverage, and can easily be dealt with by the proper switchin, which is most ground types lol. And if it does carry haze, baiting it out is actually pretty crucial for your setup sweeper's success.

Venusaur will switchin, and if offensive venusaur, parting shot debuff forces it out as soon as it comes in, providing an easy opportunity to set up your sweeper. If it's a defensive or utility set, you can switch to your aurumoth to quickly dispose of it (or set up quiver dance tbh bc theres no way it is staying in), or if you aren't worried about lech seed, just set up.

There's a lot more, but I've been working on this post on and off for too long.

Which specific teammates would benefit from the Atk/SpA drops provided by this move? Any particular setup sweepers? Any additional momentum grabbers?

Setup sweepers in general really appreciate this, especially the more frail ones, because even if the stat drops don't force the opponent out for a setup opportunity, they can actually tank a hit or two.

Aurumoth for one, is gonna love coming in on those weakened poison types and forcing them out while it sets up quiver dance (or even tail glow or dragon dance, if that's your cup of tea)

Tail Glow Syclant and Calm Mind Stratagem are some of the most frail set up sweepers, and with the aid of parting shot, could actually viably set up, despite still being weak to priority.

Naviathan's natural bulk already aids its setup, but if it comes in on a weakened mon, it's not taking much damage and it easily has a set up opportunity.
Mega Charizard X is in the same boat.

It also lures a lot of mons with ground weaknesses, so if a voltturn core is your thing, which colossoil already fits well on, colossoil is a good and powerful answer to these.

Excadrill would like to come in and set up a swords dance on these poison types. As would most steel types, like scizor.

Cawmodore has something better than swords dance though. Cawmodore would have a field day setting up on the likes of Crucibelle and Plasmanta (immunity to both it's STABs lmao, and with the perfect bait too)

(I'll add more later)
 

reachzero

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Since when it is a given they CAP22 will only (or even primarily!) be used on VoltTurn teams? This is a huge leap in reasoning from "this will probably be good on VoltTurn teams". Even if VoltTurn is viable in this metagame, it still constitutes a specialized minority of teams, with extremely different needs and specializations then others. I see people suggesting types that can switch into almost nothing safely, with the justification that it is good typing against the typical problems of VoltTurn. VoltTurn is not our concept, nor was it declared our primary concern during Concept Assessment.

What I did hear a lot about during Concept Assessment, and what is more universally useful, is CAP22 as a pivot. It's worth keeping in mind that CAP is strongly dominated by balance/bulky offense as typified by Tomohawk, Cyclohm, and Colossoil. For a Pokémon to work in this style of play, it is practically required to have clearly identified moves and enemy Pokemon to come in on. Otherwise, it is relegated to revenge killing or wall breaking, which are valuable in their own right, but poor fits conceptually for Parting Shot.

This means that it's good to judge type combos by how we could actually expect to perform in practice. Fairy/Fighting is good offensively (particularly since Crucibelle is neutral to Fighting) and doesn't hurt against Cyclohm or Colossoil, while it's substantially better than base Fairy against Crucibelle. Fairy/Steel would be worse against Colossoil, but would be great against most Tomohawk (i.e. without Earth Power) and probably the best Crucibelle switch in you could hope for. Fairy/Ground is more compromised defensively because almost every Dragon has coverage that hits Ground (Cyclohm, Kyurem-b, Lati@s), and Wood Hammer means it is not as good as Fairy/Fighting or Fairy/Steel at coming in on Crucibelle. In other words, it's wise to give some practical thought to the question of what CAP22 will switch in on easily, since you'll have very few chances to use Partin Shot unless you actually counter something!
 

snake

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This is a confusing sentiment. The mons in the CAP megagame that Fighting hits super effectively are Colossoil, Stratagem, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Kyurem-Black, Mamoswine, Chansey, and Mega Lopunny. Of those, Stratagem, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Mamoswine, and Chansey are the only ones that weren't already weak to Fairy. Fairy/Fighting is absolutely terrible at securing super effective coverage. It's actually not significantly better than Fairy with no coverage moves. Compare this to the "neutral" option of Ground, which adds not only the Heatran, but Volkraken, Krillowat, Mollux, Plasmanta, Kitsunoh, Jirachi, Mega-Diancie, Mega-Metagross, Mega-Manetric, Charizard-X and more. That's already double the added super effective coverage Fighting gets.

I would say that that, in fact, Fighting/Fairy is actually the typing that goes only for neutral coverage, but that's not really true either. Fairy/Fighting gets hard walled by Poison types, which is a solid chunk of the metagame right now, not even getting into things like Kitsunoh which inflates the number of mons this typing is awful against.. In fact, I'd argue your point on Fairy/Fighting is completely backwards. It has bad neutral coverage, and super effective coverage not that much significantly better than mono-Fairy.
I overstated Fighting-type's super effective coverage in the CAP Metagame. It was late by the time I had finished my post. However, I want to focus more on how Fairy/Fighting fits the concept over Fairy/Ground. I'm not opposed to Fairy/Ground, but if Fairy/Fighting supports the concept, I'm going to support it.

Fairy/Ground is the better typing overall; however what Fairy/Ground fails to do is scream, "hey, [x]! switch into me!" While this may seem counterintuitive, it might not be a bad idea to be thinking ahead to what switch-ins each typing will have. Fairy/Fighting has a solid list of switch ins against it, Posion-types being the most notable.

This allows for CAP22 to have more chances to use Parting Shot. Because Poison-types are almost a guarenteed switch in to a Fairy/Fighting type, CAP22 can use Parting Shot to switch out of them into a Ground- or Steel-type partner, which can cover most of the weaknesses Fairy/Fighting has. Because Fairy/Fighting gets such great neutral coverage, CAP22 can run a status/support move instead of a coverage move, which can diversify its movesets drastically.

One more thing. If you get anything out of me from this thread, I strongly support Fairy typing because it has the offensive and defensive utility to defeat VoltTurn punishers effectively.
 
I would like to answer this for my proposed typing, Electric / Fighting, so as to get it out of the way:
Which specific teammates would benefit from the Atk/SpA drops provided by this move?
Electric / Fighting baits in Landorus-T, Poison-types, and Grass-types like a magnet; ideally, wallbreakers, particularly Mamoswine, can abuse this to no avail, though Mamo is not the most common threat in CAP. However, Kyurem-B forces out many of these threats easily, especially with Lando-T at -1, and Mega Crucibelle can take advantage of Poison and Grass-types hit by Parting Shot, but not Landorus-T.

Any particular setup sweepers?

Aurumoth can abuse Illusion and Parting Shot to increase its odds of successfully scaring out Fidgit, Mega Venusaur, and Plasmanta, and possibly even Landorus-T if you are willing to take larger risks. Dragon Dance + Roost Zard X can set up on Mega Venusaur, as can Swords Dance Talonflame on defensive Mega Venusaur.

Any additional momentum grabbers?

Mega Scizor can take advantage of most of the mentioned threats that Electric / Fighting baits in, even a defensive -1 Mega Venusaur, Choice Scarf Jirachi can take advantage of a -1 Mega Venusaur, though has no business coming in on anything else, and many of the Poison and Grass-types that want to switch into Electric / Fighting CAP get forced out by Syclant.
 

Deck Knight

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The best question I think presented so far is "What,, based on typing, will CAP be drawing in."

Fairy/Fighting:
Sweepers/Revenge Killers:
Talonflame: Resists both STABS, Gale Wings Brave Bird hits before Parting Shot without extraordinary measures.
Mega Charizard: Both X and Y resist this STAB combo as Base Charizard and can then mega-evolve. Zard X is neutral thereafter but Zard Y still walls.
Mollux/Plasmanta: Resists both STABs, attacks back with Sludge Wave.
Kitsunoh: Resists or Immune to both STABs, attacks back with Meteor Mash.
Mega Metagross: Resists Fairy, nuetral to Fighting. Bulky enough to switch in in most instances. Metagross has Clear Body before it Mega Evolves, but Mega Metagross itself is susceptible to Parting Shot.
Cawmodore: Has relatively safe switchins if CAP runs physical, not so much if it is specially based, since it can't eat something like Hyper Voice then Aura Sphere on the Belly Drum. Bullet Punch can finish CAP off, but Acrobatics isn't that threatening until after Sitrus Berry is consumed.
Jirachi: Threatens with both Iron Head and ZH. Resists Fairy STAB.
Aurumoth: Threatens with Psyshock. Resists Fighting STAB.
Landorus-T: Switches into physical CAP effectively, not so much if it is specially based.
(Mega) Crucibelle: Resists Fairy, neutral to Fighting. Will be more resilient if CAP runs Special, less so if it runs Physical. CAP Resists Head Smash, but is weak to Gunk Shot.
(Mega) Gardevoir: Resists Fighting, neutral to Fairy. Will be more resilient if CAP runs Special, less so if it runs Physical.
Excadrill: Check Only. Revenge Kills in Sand or with Scarf with Iron Head.


Walls/Utility:
Pyroak/Skarmory: Very resilient if CAP runs physical, Special Fighting might be able to break through.
(Mega) Slowbro: Very resilient if CAP runs physical. Special Fairy might be able to break through. Responds with Psyshock.
Clefable/Sylveon: Fairly bulky, resists Fighting, and threatens with its own Fairy STAB.
Fidgit: Resist both STABs, respond with Sludge Wave or Sludge Bomb.

Potential options: Ground coverage addresses the majority of these threats, leaving Talonflame and Zard Y on Sweepers.

Fairy/Ground:
Sweepers/Revenge Killers:
Talonflame: Resists or Immune to both STABS, Gale Wings Brave Bird hits before Parting Shot without extraordinary measures, but it's a neutral hit.
Mega Charizard: Both X and Y resist or Immune this STAB combo as Base Charizard and can then mega-evolve. Zard X is weak thereafter but Zard Y still walls.
Cawmodore: Resists or Immune to both STABs. Most likely scenario is a BD in CAP's face.
(Mega) Gyarados: Immune to EQ before Mega-evolving Gyarados, and very resilient to a physical-oriented set. Threatens with Waterfall. Won't switch in after it Megas, though.
(Mega) Scizor: Resists Fairy, hits very hard with Tech Bullet Punch. I(Mega) Scizor is bulky enough to take neutral hits.
Landorus-T: Switches into physical CAP effectively, not so much if it is specially based.
Azumarill: CAP will not want to eat a boosted Aqua Jet. Azumarill is bulky enough to take neutral hits.
Volkraken. Check Only when Scarfed. Scard Set can revenge with Surf/Hydro Pump.
Kyurem-Black: Check Only when Scarfed. Scarf Set can revenge with Ice Beam.
Excadrill: Check Only. Revenge Kills in Sand or with Scarf with Iron Head.

Walls/Utilty:
Rotom-W: STAB Hydro Pump and Levitate make it a fairly safe switchin on a predicted EQ.
Skarmory: Walls us to hell. Responds with Iron Head.
Pyroak: Very resilient if CAP runs physical, Special Ground might be able to break through. Threatens with Giga Drain.
(Mega) Slowbro: Very resilient if CAP runs physical. Special Fairy or Ground might be able to break through. Responds with Scald.
Ferrothorn: Resists Fairy, can potentially set up hazards and respond with Power Whip.

Potential Options: Rock coverage addresses the Sweeper threats and Pyroak. The walls are harder to deal with in a single move.

Grass/Steel:
Sweepers/Revenge Killers:
Talonflame: Resists both STABS, Gale Wings Brave Bird hits before Parting Shot without extraordinary measures, but it's nuetral. Much, much more likely to draw Flare Blitz.
Mega Charizard: Both X and Y resist this STAB combo as Base and Mega Charizard.
Mega Metagross: Resists both STABs, Responds with Hammer Arm.
Cawmodore: Resists both STABs, Responds with Drain Punch.
Cyclohm: Resists both STABs, Responds with Flamethrower.
Mollux/Heatran: Resists both STABs, attacks back with Lava Plume/Fire Blast.
(Mega) Scizor: Resists both STABs, offensive variants set up SD.
Jirachi: Walls both STABs but has to run Fire Punch to do anything back.
Tomohawk: Very resilient if CAP runs physical, Special Steel might be able to break through. Threatens with Aura Sphere or Heat Wave.
Volkraken/Volcanion: Can only hit neutral with Grass STAB, fears Volk's Fire STAB.
Kitsunoh: Resists or Immune to both STABs, attacks back with neutral Shadow Strike.


Walls/Utility:
Pyroak/Heatran: Walls us to hell, responds with Lava Plume/Fire Blast.
Skarmory: Walls us to hell, but mostly just spreads hazards or phazes.
Ferrothorn: Walls us to hell, but mostly just spreads hazards. It can't Seed us.

Potential Options: Fire coverage handles more threats than would be expected, leaving Talonflame, the Charizards, and Heatran. Fairy coverage addresses Tomohawk and Cyclohm.

Fairy/Steel:
Sweepers/Revenge Killers:
Talonflame: Resists both STABS, Gale Wings Brave Bird hits before Parting Shot without extraordinary measures.
Mega Charizard: Both X and Y resist this STAB combo as Base Charizard and can then mega-evolve. Zard X is neutral thereafter but Zard Y still walls.
Mollux/Heatran/Volkraken/Volcanion: Resists both STABs, attacks back with Lava Plume/Fire Blast.
Excadrill: Resists both STABs, responds with EQ.
Kitsunoh: Resists both STABs, attacks back with neutral Shadow Strike.
Mega Metagross: Resists both STABS, only good response option is Earthquake which it tends not to run. Metagross has Clear Body before it Mega Evolves, but Mega Metagross itself is susceptible to Parting Shot.
Cawmodore: Resists both STABs and can hit neutral with Bullet Punch and Drain Punch. However, Acrobatics is resisted.
Jirachi: Resists both STABs but would have to run Fire Punch for coverage.
Landorus-T: Switches into physical CAP effectively, not so much if it is specially based. Threatens with EQ.
Colossoil: Check only from Scarf set, threatens with Scarf EQ.


Walls/Utility:
Pyroak/Heatran: Walls us to hell, responds with Lava Plume/Fire Blast.
Skarmory: Walls us to hell, but it can only spread hazards or phaze.
(Mega) Slowbro: Very resilient if CAP runs physical. Special Fairy might be able to break through. Scald hits neutral.
Ferrothorn: Walls us to hell, but can only spread hazards or use Leech Seed.


Potential options: Ground coverage does the most work here as well, removing most threats.

There may be some other things I missed, but this is a fairly comprehensive list of what I think are viable. I know Grass/Steels list is the longest, but we do want to draw some threats in more than others. Most of the typings discussed draw in Talonflame and the Mega Charizards. Don't let their status as 47 and 57 in the June 1760 stats fool you, both the Zards are quite threatening in the CAP meta.
 
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Imanalt

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Since when it is a given they CAP22 will only (or even primarily!) be used on VoltTurn teams? This is a huge leap in reasoning from "this will probably be good on VoltTurn teams". Even if VoltTurn is viable in this metagame, it still constitutes a specialized minority of teams, with extremely different needs and specializations then others. I see people suggesting types that can switch into almost nothing safely, with the justification that it is good typing against the typical problems of VoltTurn. VoltTurn is not our concept, nor was it declared our primary concern during Concept Assessment.
We need to think about voltturn because fast parting shot is not very good on bulky offense, balance, stall or semistall because those teams tend to be hesitant to give up the bulk to run a faster pivot, and its not very good on hyper aggressive teams because those teams dont want to be taking many even -1 hits. The range of teams where fast parting shot is good for itself rather than just "oh this is a good pokemon and i guess it doesnt have 4 good moves so i might as well run parting shot" is small. It mostly constitutes teams that neither tend to run a ton of set up options, nor want to be playing defensively. These teams are trying to maintain momentum getting switch advantage and wearing down the opposing team by having checks to everything their opponent has. And this is starting to sound a lot like voltturn. Obviously any pokemon that can function on voltturn will have niches on other teams, but the teamstyle in which fast parting shot is at its best is almost certainly voltturn, and so this is what we should be focusing on to get maximum value out of parting shot, in line with the concept.


Anyways I don't have strong opinions on a lot of the typings discussed recently, but I'd just say in general once again that people should be looking for what we would offer over other pokemon that can generate momentum (like lando-t) when thinking about each type.
 

Korski

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If teaming up with VoltTurn is what we're after, then I'm pretty sure that bolsters the argument for Fire / Steel. In my previous post I made note of the Water and Ground-types that are most likely to switch into a CAP with this typing. Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Colossoil are all easy switch-ins for a Landoge of your own (being physical attackers, they are totally neutered by Parting Shot followed by Intimidate), and every Ground-type in the tier is manhandled by Syclant (whose frailty is mitigated by Parting Shot). Mega Scizor can load up on SDs or U-turn out of these -1 Atk Grounds as well. The Water-types are almost all threatened by Volt Switchers like Zapdos or Mega Manectric (another Intimidator) or by other conventional Grass or Electric-types like Cyclohm, Thundurus-I, Serperior, or Necturna, to name a few. Being able to naturally draw in these types and pivot is an excellent baseline for supporting the most common VoltTurn users.

Aside from that, very few Pokemon have more than one option to hit a Fire / Steel CAP on their standard movesets, and you rarely ever see two of Fighting, Ground, or Water attacks on a single opponent (possibly only Keldeo and Quagsire, I could be wrong), making their best play often their only play. So really, you're easing prediction not just down to one or two Pokemon, but also down to the move (should they switch into something besides Parting Shot). And we haven't even gotten to stats or ability or movepool yet, so as it stands this typing would really make a lot of headway for our desired direction here.

EDIT: I just remembered about Superpower Landorus-T and assorted other Ground/Fighting combos, but really that's fine, as the best partners for this typing either resist that combo or resist Water. It's really the combo of Water/Ground or Water/Fighting that would be problematic, and those are the rare combos I was trying to refer to above.
 
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HeaLnDeaL

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Some of you might be interested in reading my full post, but for those who aren't I'm going to cut to the main points behind my initial reasoning and put the rest into hide tags.

Short version of the build up:
-One of the main advantages of FPS is for CAP22 to let a teammate switch into a weakened attack and have the ability to set up. Aurumoth is already an insanely powerful set up sweeper, and parting shot would make it too easy to support if Aurumoth and CAP22 did not have shared weaknesses. Parting Shot and a typing that shares no weaknesses with Aurumoth has the potential to be unhealthy for the metagame.
-We're a pivot who's switching out and thus probably coming back in later. Let's not be SR weak or Pursuit weak.
-FPS does very little against non-offensive walls, and such walls are varied enough that threatening them all offensively is impossible. As a wall, Tomohawk's Prankster Taunt threatens FPS the most, and so threatening Tomohawk offensively should be one of our biggest offensive goals.
-Being weak to common priority moves somewhat defeats the the purpose of having FPS, as CAP22 taking heavy damage from priority before using Parting Shot in undesirable for the FPS route.
-Lando-T in particular has a large overlap with Parting Shot thanks to Intimidate + U-turn, so differentiating from Lando-T is important.

I think it's dangerous for CAP22 to have too good of synergy with Aurumoth. As an offensive Pokemon, one of the main benefits of our Parting Shot user to let a teammate take a weaker hit while switching in, allowing it to set up more easily. As the best set up sweeper in the metagame, Aurumoth naturally becomes somewhat of a concern. I'm not saying we should prevent Aurumoth and CAP22 from ever being on the same team, but I think if we step into a typing that Aurumoth loves to be partnered with then the result could be detrimental to the metagame. Aurumoth already has illusion games that allow it to set up, and adding a perfect Parting Shot partner for this drastically increases its potential (and quite frankly I don't think Aurumoth is a Pokemon that needs any sort of buff, and I trust that many avid metagame players agree with me on this). Now, yes, switching Aurumoth into an attack after a FPS does break Aurumoth's illusion. This, however, does not prevent it from setting up just as easily because of the weakened foe having to switch out. Furthermore, there are still likely some scenarios where Aurumoth could keep illusion and benefit from FPS, such as if FPS is used to outspeed an opponent from using SR, allowing Aurumoth to come in against a weakened foe before SR is set. Therefore, I'm inclined to believe that CAP22 and Aurumoth should have shared weaknesses. With shared weaknesses, it becomes harder for Aurumoth to switch in reliably and directly benefit from Parting Shot. Aurumoth itself has a fair number of weaknesses, so sharing some of them isn't that limiting to our pool of possibilities. Ideally, I would like at least two shared weaknesses, as having only one could be easily worked around.

As many people have pointed out, being weak to SR is not advisable for a pivot / Parting Shot user. One of the main advantages of Parting Shot over Memento is the ability to use it multiple times throughout the match, and being hazard weak hinders this goal. And as a Pokemon expected to switch out some of the time due to the nature of Parting Shot, being Pursuit weak is not a favorable quality.

Seeing as Parting Shot has little more than a switch effect against non-offensive (wally) foes, being able to pressure such Pokemon would be to CAP22's advantage. The problem with this, however, is the variety of walls that could be addressed. A brief list would include Clefable, Pyroak, Cyclohm, (Parting Shot is mildly annoying to Cyclohm but it really doesn't stop it from doing anything), Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Chansey, and Mega Sableye. Yes, there are some other notable walls such as Slowbro, Heatran, and Mega Scizor, but these are more offensive and thus are affected by FPS. Defensive Tomohawk is a weird case, due to it sometimes running Hurricane and thus being affected by Parting Shot. However, what truly scares me from Tomohawk is priority Taunt. As such, I think being able to threaten Tomohawk through offensive means should be one of CAP22's main concerns. Looking at the above list of non-offensive walls and at Tomohawk should be considered if we are aiming for offensive STABs. Fairy hits Mega Sableye, Cyclohm, and Tomohawk super effectively, so it's little surprise that it's been discussed so heavily. However, it does little to dissuade Skarmory, Ferrothorn, or the slightly more offensive Steel-type walls.

Next, I want to bring up something that I don't think has received as much attention as it deserves. Being a FPS, we still have to be weary of priority. Now, taking a priority hit and switching out could come in handy in several situations and give CAP22's Teammates the chance to set up without taking damage first. However, that really doesn't flow well with the current direction. Being weak to multiple common priority moves defeats the purpose of being FPS, especially when weak to some of the stronger priority hits out there. The most notable priority move out there is Talonflame's Brave Bird. Sucker Punch is normally powerful, but it is a complete non-issue with Parting Shot so it should not be considered too heavily here (and we're already not going to be weak to pursuit, so it's already kinda covered). Tomohawk's Nature Power literally doesn't hit anything super effectively, so it's nothing to worry about either. The next strongest things to consider would be Azumarill's Aqua Jet and CB Scizor's Bullet Punch. Shadow Sneak isn't particularly common, but has prominent usage on Necturna and Revenankh. Ice Shard and Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave are probably the least seen priority moves.

Lastly, while I'm personally terribly worried about competing with other mons that have a pivot move, but I do think it should be considered. I think Imanalt's concerns with Landorus-T in particular are well founded. Thanks to Intimidate, Landorus-T sort of has half of Parting Shot activate automatically, with damage from U-turn available later. Intimidate + U-turn does create an overlap with Parting Shot, so I think differentiating ourselves from Lando-T is something that needs to be accounted for.


All of these factors lend me to support Electric/Grass for CAP22's typing at this time. Of the non-offensive walls listed above, the only ones that Electric/Grass doesn't have a neutral or better typing advantage with are Pyroak, Cyclohm, and Ferrothorn (but defensively, CAP would be guarded from Ferrothorn very well, and decently guarded versus Cyclohm's STABs). The only priority move that Electric/Grass is weak to is Ice Shard, which is rather rare. Being resistant to Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch is very handy and would let CAP22 utilize Parting Shot without being threatened by substantial damage before switching out. Electric/Grass shares Bug and Fire weaknesses with Aurumoth, which hinders a teammate Aurumoth's ability to easily abuse CAP22's Parting Shot to set up and become even more OP than it already is. Additionally an Electric/Grass CAP22 would be immune to paralysis, allowing it to much more easily stay faster than its opponents.

I will admit that Electric/Grass faces trouble from Talonflame if the bird ends up being faster than it and can use Flare Blitz. However, this problem is lessened if CAP22 is either faster or has the bulk to survive a hit. However, a lot of types here have Talonflame troubles, so I don't think being weak to Flare Blitz is that big of a deal.

For those concerned about having good offensive STABs to eliminate the need for coverage, I think Electric/Grass has surprisingly effective coverage, largely in part because of the large number of Water-types in the A ranks of CAP viability. At the time of this post, there are 51 Pokemon in Ranks A- through S by my count. Electric/Grass is SE against 19 of them (that's well over 1/3) and only resisted by 11 (and I can already think of a few different single type coverage options that fix this). I think Electric/Grass has sufficient offensive presence in the metagame.

What we offer over volturn users with Electric/Grass is pressure on Water types without being weak to Ground, and unlike with Rotom-W we can get past the annoying Water/Ground types too. With Grass as a secondary STAB, we are able to offensively target Ground types that normally laugh at volt switch such as Colossoil and Hippowdon (and we'd probably use Parting Shot versus Garchomp, thus avoiding contact of U-turn and not losing HP). Grass also provides defensive advantages, letting CAP22 be resistant to water while Landorus-T is weak to it. I feel that this typing provides notable benefits that lets it compete for a team slot and for it to work well with other pivot mons should it be used on such a team.

Electric/Fighting is very similar to Electric/Grass, but without the ability to threaten some of the lesser-used Ground-types (Electric/Fighting deals with Colossoil, but not Hippowdon or Mega Swampert, etc) and with the benefit of deal with Darks / pursuit better. Overall, Electric/Fighting is probably my second pick. It has better synergy with Aurumoth, which I am afraid of, but I could get over if I had no choice. I'd just prefer not to buff Aurumoth with a parting shot partner if possible, and I think Electric/Grass eases my worries here more.
 
Heal, I mean I suppose I agree with your sentiment that aiding Aurumoth with parting shots affects can be unhealthy for the metagame, but at the same time, I firmly believe that we can't gimp CAP22 with a poor/mediocre defensive typing just because Aurumoth exists. I believe most other aspects of the typing (not priority weak, not Bisharp bait, not Tomo bait, not SR weak) should take priority over sharing weaknesses with Aurumoth.

I also firmly believe that fast parting shot is objectively inferior to a slow parting shot, but I'm not gonna go into detail because I don't want to poll jump and everyone seems to have made up their minds anyway :/.

I would like to see this CAP be successful
 

Ignus

Copying deli meat to hard drive
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Fire is actually a super interesting type in the context of the CAP metagame - some of the most dangerous threats were created during a time in gen 5 when rain teams were king, like Cawmodore and Aurumoth, and fire resistance was much less important on a team. Not only that, but burns weren't nearly as common back in generation 4 when scald wasn't around, leaving the role of a cleric or status absorber less important on many teams.

Now, however, Fire is a much larger force - both offensively and defensively. The adding of a fairy resist, as well as the release of scary sweepers like serperior and talonflame has helped move its defensive use forward, and its moves have always had over-the-top amounts of base power. Couple this with access to high utility moves like Lava Plume and you have one of the most 'anti metagame' types in the world of CAP.

What's really interesting about fire moves, though, is what it draws out. The majority of fire resists are either defensive pivots - like Heatran, Cyclohm, and (Insert Bulky Water Here) - or 'smash their highest BP move at you until you cry' wallbreakers type Pokemon. Both of these cases actually suffer quite a bit from the damage reduction of PS. For example, Standard Offensive Heatran can't actually break past Mega Sableye with a 2hko at -1, even if Sableye gets burned by lava plume. To remind you, Heatran has 130 Base Special Attack. You can expect similar results from many high power cannons within the metagame.

On top of this, the enemies who both can switch in on fire moves AND can boost, such as talonflame or ZardX, are weak to stealth rock. Hopefully I don't have to explain why a Pokemon meant to abuse a switching move luring in Pokemon weak to stealth rock is a good thing. Those that CAN be burned, like BD Azumarill or Naviathan, don't particularly enjoy it.

So, to summarize why Fire is REALLY GOOD:

  • The CAP metagame is naturally weak to handling fire moves, partially because many of the 'created' Pokemon were built before handling fire coverage or moves with high burn chances was as important as it is now.
  • Fire lures in tons of defensive pivots and wall breakers that don't handle reduced damage particularly well.
  • The sweepers that like switching into a fire CAP22 either hate SR or hate being burned.



That said, we still have some issues. No dark resist. Some issues with straggler sweepers like the odd CM Keldeo. So, a pure fire type might not be as great for the project as possible. On top of that, 'praying for burn' isn't exactly the best strategy against something like guts Colossoil, not to mention the lack of an easily abusable immunity to grab free switch ins.

Enter Fairy. The immediate usefulness of the type is pretty straightforward - It scares off dragon type boosters and gives us a free switch on some of the normal 'face-smashing wallbreakers' (smace-washing fallbreakers?) like Latios, Scarfchomp, or Kyurem-B. It resists pursuiters and u-turners, making the moves that are strongest against Parting Shot a much smaller worry. The super effective hits on fatties that fire doesn't handle well like Colossoil are scared off by fairy STABs.
But Fairy's real effectiveness is actually that it doesn't particularly change what CAP22 lures in from if it was a solo fire type - the SR weak sweepers still get baited. The tanky pivots and wallbreakers still try to poke it (and are still disappointed by how little damage they do at -1).

Fire actually covers for fairy's weaknesses in regards to the concept too - it threatens away the steel types that would come in on many of the other fairy/___ types. Fairy's lack of priority resists are covered by moves with high burn chances, considering almost all priority users are physically oriented.


If there's anything wrong with Fire/Fairy, it would be its stealth rock weakness. This, however, is something that's actually been handled before by a similar Pokemon, Tornadus-T. An SR weakness is by no means an end all for a pivot, and actually encouraging (forcing) the user to run proper hazard control on a team with a Pokemon expected to switch in a lot like CAP22 is, if anything, just good design.

So, Yeah. Fire/Fairy is really, really good.

Full pro/cons list:

Pros:
  • Super useful, spammable STAB movepool with either high burn chances, high BP, or great situational coverage
  • Pulls in fire/water type defensive pivots and wallbreakers (who become potentially wall-able)
  • Pulls in SR weak sweepers (read: Taloronaizard-X)
  • Threatens most priority users with either a KO or a burn (talonflame not included, but that's ok. Read above.)
  • Threatens pursuit users / dark types
  • Scares off Bulky U-Turners with burns
  • Allows free switches against dragon type brute force wallbreakers
  • Allows free switches against low BP coverage moves, like HP ice
  • Allows free switches against will-o-wisp spam

Cons:
  • Weak to SR? (Compensatable, need hazard control with multiple switches anyhow)

~~~~~~~~~~~~Non Fire Fairy justification below this line~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Ice / _____ generally has problems with, like, everything priority. There's a reason you don't see Ice as a primary STAB that often, and that's partially because it's generally going to kill the things it wants to hit regardless, and giving up so many resistances in return is kind of a big deal. Even when paired with a dark resist, I don't think even fighting/fairy+ice has useful enough utility to particularly be a top tier choice.

Fire / Steel is similar to Fire / Fairy, but lacks a solid answer to Colossoil or any bulky ground booster. Still decent, and notably more useful than a lot of the types. Probably my second choice behind Fire Fairy.

Fairy / Ground Is interesting for its super high BP STABs, but lacks any real way to deal with ground neutral steel types. Cawmodore is one of the few sweepers out there that doesn't particularly mind Parting Shot's damage reduction, because +5 still hurts. Scizor, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and many others don't mind chip damage as much as some of the other stuff we could be pulling. Probably sub-optimal just due to that - partially because we shouldn't be using our 'non STAB' slot to hit only four Pokemon. If it had access to a damage utility move like knock off / scald? Sure. Otherwise, other choices might be better.

Ground / ______ cont.
I think that running into immunities is generally bad practice for CAP22. 'Free' switch ins is sort of exact opposite of what we want the opponent to get. Our not-very-effective attacks should be hurting our opponents switch-ins more than they should be hurting us. Not doing any damage kind of hurts that. If we're pairing Ground with anything, it should have high utility or particularly high BP STABs.

Water or Electric / Fairy
Grouping these together because they kind of do the same thing. Both negate the steel weakness and give us an interesting STAB pool. Same Cawmodore / Steel types issue for both of them that Ground Fairy has. Anything that pulls a plethora of Pokemon with access to recovery is going to have this problem. Fire Fairy also has this problem, but deals with it through residual damage chances and actually threatens the sweepy steel trio of Megagross / Caw / Scizor.


Alright. Tell me why I'm wrong now pls
 

snake

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Fire is actually a super interesting type in the context of the CAP metagame - some of the most dangerous threats were created during a time in gen 5 when rain teams were king, like Cawmodore and Aurumoth, and fire resistance was much less important on a team. Not only that, but burns weren't nearly as common back in generation 4 when scald wasn't around, leaving the role of a cleric or status absorber less important on many teams.

Now, however, Fire is a much larger force - both offensively and defensively. The adding of a fairy resist, as well as the release of scary sweepers like serperior and talonflame has helped move its defensive use forward, and its moves have always had over-the-top amounts of base power. Couple this with access to high utility moves like Lava Plume and you have one of the most 'anti metagame' types in the world of CAP.

What's really interesting about fire moves, though, is what it draws out. The majority of fire resists are either defensive pivots - like Heatran, Cyclohm, and (Insert Bulky Water Here) - or 'smash their highest BP move at you until you cry' wallbreakers type Pokemon. Both of these cases actually suffer quite a bit from the damage reduction of PS. For example, Standard Offensive Heatran can't actually break past Mega Sableye with a 2hko at -1, even if Sableye gets burned by lava plume. To remind you, Heatran has 130 Base Special Attack. You can expect similar results from many high power cannons within the metagame.

On top of this, the enemies who both can switch in on fire moves AND can boost, such as talonflame or ZardX, are weak to stealth rock. Hopefully I don't have to explain why a Pokemon meant to abuse a switching move luring in Pokemon weak to stealth rock is a good thing. Those that CAN be burned, like BD Azumarill or Naviathan, don't particularly enjoy it.

So, to summarize why Fire is REALLY GOOD:

  • The CAP metagame is naturally weak to handling fire moves, partially because many of the 'created' Pokemon were built before handling fire coverage or moves with high burn chances was as important as it is now.
  • Fire lures in tons of defensive pivots and wall breakers that don't handle reduced damage particularly well.
  • The sweepers that like switching into a fire CAP22 either hate SR or hate being burned.



That said, we still have some issues. No dark resist. Some issues with straggler sweepers like the odd CM Keldeo. So, a pure fire type might not be as great for the project as possible. On top of that, 'praying for burn' isn't exactly the best strategy against something like guts Colossoil, not to mention the lack of an easily abusable immunity to grab free switch ins.

Enter Fairy. The immediate usefulness of the type is pretty straightforward - It scares off dragon type boosters and gives us a free switch on some of the normal 'face-smashing wallbreakers' (smace-washing fallbreakers?) like Latios, Scarfchomp, or Kyurem-B. It resists pursuiters and u-turners, making the moves that are strongest against Parting Shot a much smaller worry. The super effective hits on fatties that fire doesn't handle well like Colossoil are scared off by fairy STABs.
But Fairy's real effectiveness is actually that it doesn't particularly change what CAP22 lures in from if it was a solo fire type - the SR weak sweepers still get baited. The tanky pivots and wallbreakers still try to poke it (and are still disappointed by how little damage they do at -1).

Fire actually covers for fairy's weaknesses in regards to the concept too - it threatens away the steel types that would come in on many of the other fairy/___ types. Fairy's lack of priority resists are covered by moves with high burn chances, considering almost all priority users are physically oriented.


If there's anything wrong with Fire/Fairy, it would be its stealth rock weakness. This, however, is something that's actually been handled before by a similar Pokemon, Tornadus-T. An SR weakness is by no means an end all for a pivot, and actually encouraging (forcing) the user to run proper hazard control on a team with a Pokemon expected to switch in a lot like CAP22 is, if anything, just good design.

So, Yeah. Fire/Fairy is really, really good.

Full pro/cons list:

Pros:
  • Super useful, spammable STAB movepool with either high burn chances, high BP, or great situational coverage
  • Pulls in fire/water type defensive pivots and wallbreakers (who become potentially wall-able)
  • Pulls in SR weak sweepers (read: Taloronaizard-X)
  • Threatens most priority users with either a KO or a burn (talonflame not included, but that's ok. Read above.)
  • Threatens pursuit users / dark types
  • Scares off Bulky U-Turners with burns
  • Allows free switches against dragon type brute force wallbreakers
  • Allows free switches against low BP coverage moves, like HP ice
  • Allows free switches against will-o-wisp spam

Cons:
  • Weak to SR? (Compensatable, need hazard control with multiple switches anyhow)

~~~~~~~~~~~~Non Fire Fairy justification below this line~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Ice / _____ generally has problems with, like, everything priority. There's a reason you don't see Ice as a primary STAB that often, and that's partially because it's generally going to kill the things it wants to hit regardless, and giving up so many resistances in return is kind of a big deal. Even when paired with a dark resist, I don't think even fighting/fairy+ice has useful enough utility to particularly be a top tier choice.

Fire / Steel is similar to Fire / Fairy, but lacks a solid answer to Colossoil or any bulky ground booster. Still decent, and notably more useful than a lot of the types. Probably my second choice behind Fire Fairy.

Fairy / Ground Is interesting for its super high BP STABs, but lacks any real way to deal with ground neutral steel types. Cawmodore is one of the few sweepers out there that doesn't particularly mind Parting Shot's damage reduction, because +5 still hurts. Scizor, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and many others don't mind chip damage as much as some of the other stuff we could be pulling. Probably sub-optimal just due to that - partially because we shouldn't be using our 'non STAB' slot to hit only four Pokemon. If it had access to a damage utility move like knock off / scald? Sure. Otherwise, other choices might be better.

Ground / ______ cont.
I think that running into immunities is generally bad practice for CAP22. 'Free' switch ins is sort of exact opposite of what we want the opponent to get. Our not-very-effective attacks should be hurting our opponents switch-ins more than they should be hurting us. Not doing any damage kind of hurts that. If we're pairing Ground with anything, it should have high utility or particularly high BP STABs.

Water or Electric / Fairy
Grouping these together because they kind of do the same thing. Both negate the steel weakness and give us an interesting STAB pool. Same Cawmodore / Steel types issue for both of them that Ground Fairy has. Anything that pulls a plethora of Pokemon with access to recovery is going to have this problem. Fire Fairy also has this problem, but deals with it through residual damage chances and actually threatens the sweepy steel trio of Megagross / Caw / Scizor.


Alright. Tell me why I'm wrong now pls
This is an interesting type combination that's very similar to Fairy/Fighting, so I wouldn't be too sad with this one. It has a good set of walls to use Parting Shot on, which is most important.

However, there's one part of your post that I have to criticize it's that your example for an Stealth Rock weak mon is Tornadus-T. Yes it is indeed Stealth Rock weak; however it has an ability (Regenerator) that not only mitigates Stealth Rock but also heals it a little more than before it had switched out. It's not impossible for CAP22 to have Regenerator (I personally think it's quite probable), but I think it's unfair to pick Tornadus-T as your example that "A Stealth-Rock-weak pivot doesn't really care about rocks, actually."
 
Ignus and Korski's arguments for Fire/Fairy and Fire/Steel actually support Fire/Ground very well, too. I don't think losing to Colossoil is a death sentence when we have Parting Shot. Colossoil is exactly the kind of offense-reliant target that Parting Shot is good against; Rotom-W and Landorus-T in particular are able to take -1 Colossoil attacks and keep momentum going easily. -1 Pursuit from AV Colo would do around 50% to Syclant (and not all run Pursuit), so I don't see this being such a huge issue either. If you manage to predict and hit it on the switch with Parting Shot then you're golden in terms of momentum. If Colossoil takes too much damage it suddenly has to win a predict war with Sucker Punch/Pursuit. Colossoil is fine under the set of "pokemon who are likely to be lured by this type", as far as I can tell. I'm happy to hear more arguments against Fire/Ground but so far that's all I've heard.

Which specific teammates would benefit from the Atk/SpA drops provided by this move?

Fire/Ground lures Water- and Ground-type attacks, so Grass-types along with some levitators and Flying-types ( Lati@s, Rotom-W, Altaria, Gyarados ) are natural partners that resist both of these weaknesses. Water and Ground rarely come from the same source (Krillowat but it's weak to our Ground STAB) so teammates that only take one of those types are useful too. Ferrothorn, Tornadus-T, OPMoth, and Kyurem-B are examples, but obviously there are a ton of pokemon that resist either Water or Ground. In general it would fit very well in a FWG core such as CAP/Rotom-W/Ferrothorn or CAP/Serperior/Manaphy.

Any particular setup sweepers?

Serperior, M-Latias or Latios, resist both Ground and Water, aren't crippled by Burn, and can set up. Bulky Water-type setup sweepers can stomach a Ground hit and set up. They also resist Water. Manaphy, Keldeo and Azumarill (only on a switch) fit this bill. Various Flying-type or levitating setup sweepers also would enjoy coming in on a Ground-type and can take -1 coverage moves, such as Thundurus, Landorus-T, M-Pinsir, and Stratagem. Bug-types like Aurumoth, M-Heracross, and Syclant can come in on -1 Ground attacks too. Clefable and Naviathan are solid absorbers of -1 Scalds and can set up. M-Altaria and M-Gyarados resist Ground and Water prior to Mega-evolution and can set up that way.

Any additional momentum grabbers?

Ground and Water resists: Rotom-W, Malaconda, Celebi. Either or: Landorus-T, Syclant, Zapdos, Tomohawk.

And I'll reiterate that Fire/Ground is the only typing I've seen that beats all Spikes/Toxic Spikes setters, and more than half of SR setters (of course you can't beat every SR mon). This also means friendly momentum grabbers will be able to pivot to CAP22 should hazard setters switch in on them. Hazard advantages are crucial to VoltTurn teams and the more hazard setters CAP22 lets in the worse it will fit those team archetypes. Ferrothorn or Skarmory coming in on our STAB's and getting Spikes off would be extremely detrimental.
 

Ignus

Copying deli meat to hard drive
This is an interesting type combination that's very similar to Fairy/Fighting, so I wouldn't be too sad with this one. It has a good set of walls to use Parting Shot on, which is most important.

However, there's one part of your post that I have to criticize it's that your example for an Stealth Rock weak mon is Tornadus-T. Yes it is indeed Stealth Rock weak; however it has an ability (Regenerator) that not only mitigates Stealth Rock but also heals it a little more than before it had switched out. It's not impossible for CAP22 to have Regenerator (I personally think it's quite probable), but I think it's unfair to pick Tornadus-T as your example that "A Stealth-Rock-weak pivot doesn't really care about rocks, actually."
You're right, Tornadus is probably not a very good example, so let me show a more extreme one: Talonflame. It's actually even worse off in regards to its weakness, but access to u-turn, HP recovery, and the terror of brave bird make it extremely useful as a pivot. Couple this with a x4 resist to grass, an immunity to ground and a handful or two of useful secondary resists, and you get a mon that actually even gets a spot on stall teams, occasionally.

Thundurus is another good example. It's fragile as hell, but the ground immunity and access to prankster t-wave still make it a great offensive pivot. On the defensive side, Zapdos does something similar, though it often doesn't bother running volt switch.

What I'm trying to show is that an SR weakness isn't by any means 'the end' for a pivot. Often the loss of health isn't nearly as important as the benefits gained from a typing, and I think even other examples like Volkraken/Volcanion that don't particularly rely on boosts to hit hard and are without reliable recovery can still be useful with the right team support.
 
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DougJustDoug

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I have been reading this thread with great interest, and I love seeing the depth of reasoning people are putting into the posts here. Good job, in general, to CAP posters new and old! I've also been hanging out in the PS CAP room and chatting and watching battles over there. For anyone who hasn't joined the room on PS, I highly suggest you do so. It's a great way to chat in real time about this stuff, and it gives ample opportunities to see the CAP meta in action, even if you don't battle much yourself (I don't).

I think this is the first genuinely interesting thread in CAP 22. Not that the concept threads were bad, but the Concept thread itself was very broad (Concept threads always are, just nature of the beast there) and the Concept Assessment was pretty narrow (mostly a discussion of fast vs slow, which was OK, but not a lot of meat on the bone there). Here in the typing thread, there has been a nice range of perspectives, but focused enough to have some real continuity and counterplay between the arguments for and against different proposed typings.

I have no idea what will get slated at this point, and I can't even say I have a favorite exact typing yet. But I am forming some opinions, and figured I'd give some feedback based on my "voter perspective". I am NOT posting this as a battling expert. These are my interpretations as an observer and an avid new fan of the CAP meta. Meaning, this is feedback to the more knowledgeable posters and submitters as to what is currently influencing my thinking as I read the posts in this thread with a view towards how I expect to vote in the future.

Fairy/<whatever> is a big frontrunner for me.

After watching CAP battles, something that comes across loud and clear is that the "CAP Rock, Paper, Scissors Trio" of Colossoil, Tomohawk, and Cyclohm is everywhere. These three pokemon were made in wildly different metagames for very different reasons, but they ended up as a near-perfect counter/check trio. Tomohawk beats Colossoil -> Colossoil beats Cyclohm -> Cyclohm beats Tomohawk. And with Colossoil and Tomohawk being so incredibly useful in so many ways, they are on almost every CAP team, which means Cyclohm is on almost every team too, just for RPS reasons. I'm not saying RPS with Colo, Tomo, and Cyclohm is a bad thing. It's great. All three mons can run different sets, so every CAP battle I see with them is still fun to watch how it plays out, even if the switching amongst those three is predictable to a fault.

For CAP 22, I really like that Fairy threatens all three members of the super-common Colo/Tomo/Cyclohm triumvirate. It's no accident that the most-used non-CAP pokemon in the CAP metagame (by all player rating levels) is Clefable. A good Fairy type is an all-purpose monkey wrench to disrupt or avoid CAP Rock, Paper, Scissors. I realize that Clefable is not just good in CAP, it's a straight-up awesome pokemon in OU (currently #3 in OU usage). So I don't want to make it out like Fairy typing gets a free lift in CAP. For example, I haven't seen nearly as much Azumarill used in CAP, compared to Clef and compared to OU. But my guess is that's more about other things with Azu in relation to other CAPs, and not a negative indictment against Azu as a Fairy type in CAP. So, as an observer, I'd love to see another good Fairy-type in the mix in CAP battles to put a new wrinkle in Colo/Tomo/Cyclohm RPS games.

I'm also excited at the possible interplay with a CAP 22 Fairy type and our newest nuke in the CAP meta -- Crucibelle. Mega-Crucibelle appears quite a bit in CAP battles, and I don't think it's just because it is a shiny new toy. Mega Belle is legit from everything I have seen, but requires deliberate teambuilding and careful use in battle to be effective. You can't just bring it in, go mega and head smash everything in sight. Not against good CAP battlers, from what I seen. But played correctly, Mega Belle can be a brutal wincon in the CAP meta. A good CAP 22 Fairy type could go many different ways in relation to Crucibelle. With Poison typing and a devastating Gunk Shot, we may want Belle to be our definitive CAP 22 Fairy killer. Perhaps we use CAP 22's secondary typing to neutralize Belle? Maybe we use coverage moves to abuse Belle's glaring 4x weak to Ground? There are many ways we can go here. But a Fairy type CAP 22 brings Crucibelle squarely into the discussion, and that's a good thing, IMO.

It is decided that CAP 22 is going to be "fast" in some way, and there don't appear to be any "naturally fast" Fairies that are used much in CAP currently. I'm using quotes because the concept of "fast" takes many forms in Pokemon. I use "naturally fast" to refer to a base form pokemon with a high speed stat, as opposed to high speed after mega-evolution, access to priority moves, or an ability like Prankster. So making a CAP 22 mon a Fairy type with a decent speed stat, would add something new to the CAP meta. I'm not saying we have to pursue the concept of "fast" with a big speed stat in order to be new and fresh. We can make a Fairy priority user different than Azu, or a Prankster Fairy different than Klefki, or whatever. But a naturally fast Fairy-type is very likely to break new ground, almost by definition.

Lastly in this long explanation as to why Fairy is so appealing to me right now -- there have been MANY different Fairy typings proposed in this thread, with a lot of compelling competitive reasoning behind them. So, it appears that I am not alone in my fondness for a Fairy type CAP 22, even if the reasoning is different amongst the exact type suggestions. As I said earlier, I don't actually have a favorite exact typing right now. But, I'm definitely hoping one or more Fairy combos makes it onto the slate.


You may notice I have made no mention of Parting Shot in my feedback yet, even though that is the heart of our Concept! I haven't stated my opinions about Parting Shot because:

The good arguments about Parting Shot have been so varied, that I currently have no opinion which typing is "best" in relation to Parting Shot usage.

I have found myself swayed back and forth amongst various arguments about Parting Shot, which is the main reason I have enjoyed reading this thread so much! This early in the process, it's rare to have any real "make or break" decisions on the table. And while I'm sure there are some proposed typings that are better or worse than others in relation to Parting Shot, I'm currently trusting the TL and TLT to give us a slate of typing options, all of which could serve as a great base to build a Parting Shot mon.
 
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This is my first actual contribution to a CAP session, so here goes...

Lots of points have been brought up about typing. Resistance to Stealth Rocks, threatening Bisharp, offensive presence, having things to use Parting Shot on, etc. Fairy/Fighting covers almost all of these points. Even compatibility with Volt-Turn teams - it hits Ferrothorn super-effectively - and sharing a weakness with Aurumoth - both are weak to Flying. Thus, I support Fairy/Fighting.

However, I also support Fairy/Fire. While it becomes weak to Stealth Rocks, all of the other points apply. Its shared weakness with Aurumoth, Rock, isn't quite as problematic as Flying due to Rock lacking priority. In addition, unlike Fairy/Fighting, Fairy/Fire isn't weak to Steel, and a good amount of previous CAPs are poorly equipped to deal with Fire-types.
 
I believe that Fighting/Electric should be considered more as a potential typing. Some key qualities of this typing for a pivoting Pokemon:
  • A resistance to Stealth Rock, allowing common pivoting without as much weardown
  • Complete resistance to Bisharp's STABs, as well as neutrality to the occasionally carried Low Kick
  • An immunity to Paralysis, which could cripple this CAP very easily.
  • A fairly reliable typing, being weak only to Psychic, Ground, and Fairy.
  • The typing grants resistance to both U-Turn and Volt Switch, which allows for reduced weardown from opposing pivots.
I believe these trait are useful enough to warrant some thought and discussion.
 

reachzero

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Something I haven't seen mentioned much but which does have serious implications is that the worst enemy of Parting Shot is a slow U-turn (or to a lesser extent, Volt Switch), since it does damage where Parting Shot does none, and it gains switch advantage over a faster Parting Shot. As far as I can think of, the only really common situations where this would be Mega Scizor and Landorus-t; it is important that we not allow Landorus-t in particular to come in for free, since it's much more difficult to trap or adjust for via movepool. Rotom-w is the Volt Switch user we don't want to invite in, but I haven't seen any types suggested that have an obvious problem with it.
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~BEGIN TEXT WALL~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fire is actually a super interesting type in the context of the CAP metagame - some of the most dangerous threats were created during a time in gen 5 when rain teams were king, like Cawmodore and Aurumoth, and fire resistance was much less important on a team. Not only that, but burns weren't nearly as common back in generation 4 when scald wasn't around, leaving the role of a cleric or status absorber less important on many teams.

Now, however, Fire is a much larger force - both offensively and defensively. The adding of a fairy resist, as well as the release of scary sweepers like serperior and talonflame has helped move its defensive use forward, and its moves have always had over-the-top amounts of base power. Couple this with access to high utility moves like Lava Plume and you have one of the most 'anti metagame' types in the world of CAP.

What's really interesting about fire moves, though, is what it draws out. The majority of fire resists are either defensive pivots - like Heatran, Cyclohm, and (Insert Bulky Water Here) - or 'smash their highest BP move at you until you cry' wallbreakers type Pokemon. Both of these cases actually suffer quite a bit from the damage reduction of PS. For example, Standard Offensive Heatran can't actually break past Mega Sableye with a 2hko at -1, even if Sableye gets burned by lava plume. To remind you, Heatran has 130 Base Special Attack. You can expect similar results from many high power cannons within the metagame.

On top of this, the enemies who both can switch in on fire moves AND can boost, such as talonflame or ZardX, are weak to stealth rock. Hopefully I don't have to explain why a Pokemon meant to abuse a switching move luring in Pokemon weak to stealth rock is a good thing. Those that CAN be burned, like BD Azumarill or Naviathan, don't particularly enjoy it.

So, to summarize why Fire is REALLY GOOD:

  • The CAP metagame is naturally weak to handling fire moves, partially because many of the 'created' Pokemon were built before handling fire coverage or moves with high burn chances was as important as it is now.
  • Fire lures in tons of defensive pivots and wall breakers that don't handle reduced damage particularly well.
  • The sweepers that like switching into a fire CAP22 either hate SR or hate being burned.



That said, we still have some issues. No dark resist. Some issues with straggler sweepers like the odd CM Keldeo. So, a pure fire type might not be as great for the project as possible. On top of that, 'praying for burn' isn't exactly the best strategy against something like guts Colossoil, not to mention the lack of an easily abusable immunity to grab free switch ins.

Enter Fairy. The immediate usefulness of the type is pretty straightforward - It scares off dragon type boosters and gives us a free switch on some of the normal 'face-smashing wallbreakers' (smace-washing fallbreakers?) like Latios, Scarfchomp, or Kyurem-B. It resists pursuiters and u-turners, making the moves that are strongest against Parting Shot a much smaller worry. The super effective hits on fatties that fire doesn't handle well like Colossoil are scared off by fairy STABs.
But Fairy's real effectiveness is actually that it doesn't particularly change what CAP22 lures in from if it was a solo fire type - the SR weak sweepers still get baited. The tanky pivots and wallbreakers still try to poke it (and are still disappointed by how little damage they do at -1).

Fire actually covers for fairy's weaknesses in regards to the concept too - it threatens away the steel types that would come in on many of the other fairy/___ types. Fairy's lack of priority resists are covered by moves with high burn chances, considering almost all priority users are physically oriented.


If there's anything wrong with Fire/Fairy, it would be its stealth rock weakness. This, however, is something that's actually been handled before by a similar Pokemon, Tornadus-T. An SR weakness is by no means an end all for a pivot, and actually encouraging (forcing) the user to run proper hazard control on a team with a Pokemon expected to switch in a lot like CAP22 is, if anything, just good design.

So, Yeah. Fire/Fairy is really, really good.

Full pro/cons list:

Pros:
  • Super useful, spammable STAB movepool with either high burn chances, high BP, or great situational coverage
  • Pulls in fire/water type defensive pivots and wallbreakers (who become potentially wall-able)
  • Pulls in SR weak sweepers (read: Taloronaizard-X)
  • Threatens most priority users with either a KO or a burn (talonflame not included, but that's ok. Read above.)
  • Threatens pursuit users / dark types
  • Scares off Bulky U-Turners with burns
  • Allows free switches against dragon type brute force wallbreakers
  • Allows free switches against low BP coverage moves, like HP ice
  • Allows free switches against will-o-wisp spam

Cons:
  • Weak to SR? (Compensatable, need hazard control with multiple switches anyhow)

~~~~~~~~~~~~Non Fire Fairy justification below this line~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Ice / _____ generally has problems with, like, everything priority. There's a reason you don't see Ice as a primary STAB that often, and that's partially because it's generally going to kill the things it wants to hit regardless, and giving up so many resistances in return is kind of a big deal. Even when paired with a dark resist, I don't think even fighting/fairy+ice has useful enough utility to particularly be a top tier choice.

Fire / Steel is similar to Fire / Fairy, but lacks a solid answer to Colossoil or any bulky ground booster. Still decent, and notably more useful than a lot of the types. Probably my second choice behind Fire Fairy.

Fairy / Ground Is interesting for its super high BP STABs, but lacks any real way to deal with ground neutral steel types. Cawmodore is one of the few sweepers out there that doesn't particularly mind Parting Shot's damage reduction, because +5 still hurts. Scizor, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and many others don't mind chip damage as much as some of the other stuff we could be pulling. Probably sub-optimal just due to that - partially because we shouldn't be using our 'non STAB' slot to hit only four Pokemon. If it had access to a damage utility move like knock off / scald? Sure. Otherwise, other choices might be better.

Ground / ______ cont.
I think that running into immunities is generally bad practice for CAP22. 'Free' switch ins is sort of exact opposite of what we want the opponent to get. Our not-very-effective attacks should be hurting our opponents switch-ins more than they should be hurting us. Not doing any damage kind of hurts that. If we're pairing Ground with anything, it should have high utility or particularly high BP STABs.

Water or Electric / Fairy
Grouping these together because they kind of do the same thing. Both negate the steel weakness and give us an interesting STAB pool. Same Cawmodore / Steel types issue for both of them that Ground Fairy has. Anything that pulls a plethora of Pokemon with access to recovery is going to have this problem. Fire Fairy also has this problem, but deals with it through residual damage chances and actually threatens the sweepy steel trio of Megagross / Caw / Scizor.


Alright. Tell me why I'm wrong now pls
I reactivated my profile just to back you up! Post #1.

I worked on CAPmon before back with Malaconda. I've been lurking reading the discussion for 22 and agree with this rationale for a Fire/Fairy type.

Fairy as a typing seems to be gaining some traction, and a type which is highly desirable for a pivot. However, a Fighting/Fairy typing would become fodder for a mon which already troubles Volt Turn teams: Amoongus.

Amoongus already flat out renders Rotom ineffective, and Renegerator ensures the 'shroom can't be worn down by VoltSwitch schnanigans. Furthermore other VoltTurn mons like Scizor and Landorus can't switch into Spore. If CAP 22 is Fighting/Fairy, this Amoongus weakness is further worsened as the shroom resists both these STABs and doesn't care about Parting Shot dropping its special attack, as it will switch it regardless. These characteristics make Fighting/Fairy undesirable for a VoltTurn team.

Conversely, a nice Fire STAB chases away the pesky fungus. And as Ignys mentioned, couple that fire typing with the possiblility for Lava Plume burns for physically switchins, and backed by a fairy STAB to deter dragons and you have a very viable offensive pivot.

Also, consider the good defensive syngery between a Fire/Fairy type and Rotom, Scizor and Landorus.

I know the SR weakness is a bit undesirable for a pivot, but frankly, VoltTurn teams need hazard control anyway.

Fire/Fairy is the way to go.
 
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HeaLnDeaL

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Agile Turtle said:
I also firmly believe that fast parting shot is objectively inferior to a slow parting shot, but I'm not gonna go into detail because I don't want to poll jump and everyone seems to have made up their minds anyway :/.
I just want to remind everyone that CAP22's direction was decided to be a Fast Parting Shot user during the conclusion of Concept Assessment. This is no longer really up for debate.
 
Something I haven't seen mentioned much but which does have serious implications is that the worst enemy of Parting Shot is a slow U-turn (or to a lesser extent, Volt Switch), since it does damage where Parting Shot does none, and it gains switch advantage over a faster Parting Shot. As far as I can think of, the only really common situations where this would be Mega Scizor and Landorus-t; it is important that we not allow Landorus-t in particular to come in for free, since it's much more difficult to trap or adjust for via movepool. Rotom-w is the Volt Switch user we don't want to invite in, but I haven't seen any types suggested that have an obvious problem with it.
Landorus-T is a prime target that would be lured in by Parting Shot though. Parting Shot may not be necessarily used on a Pokemon once it safely switches in; if you predict a Landorus-T switchin and hit it with Parting Shot, you gain a considerable amount of momentum, as Landorus-T relies on its offenses to threaten a number of the Pokemon it checks. Parting Shot is not necessarily going to be used on a target once it gets a safe switch-in, which you seem to conceive as being absolute.
 

snake

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I reactivated my profile just to back you up! Post #1.

I worked on CAPmon before back with Malaconda. I've been lurking reading the discussion for 22 and agree with this rationale for a Fire/Fairy type.

Fairy as a typing seems to be gaining some traction, and a type which is highly desirable for a pivot. However, a Fighting/Fairy typing would become fodder for a mon which already troubles Volt Turn teams: Amoongus.

Amoongus already flat out renders Rotom ineffective, and Renegerator ensures the 'shroom can't be worn down by VoltSwitch schnanigans. Furthermore other VoltTurn mons like Scizor and Landorus can't switch into Spore. If CAP 22 is Fighting/Fairy, this Amoongus weakness is further worsened as the shroom resists both these STABs and doesn't care about Parting Shot dropping its special attack, as it will switch it regardless. These characteristics make Fighting/Fairy undesirable for a VoltTurn team.

Conversely, a nice Fire STAB chases away the pesky fungus. And as Ignys mentioned, couple that fire typing with the possiblility for Lava Plume burns for physically switchins, and backed by a fairy STAB to deter dragons and you have a very viable offensive pivot.

Also, consider the good defensive syngery between a Fire/Fairy type and Rotom, Scizor and Landorus.

I know the SR weakness is a bit undesirable for a pivot, but frankly, VoltTurn teams need hazard control anyway.

Fire/Fairy is the way to go.
Honestly you're over exaggerating Amoonguss. First, Amoonguss has trouble with common VoltTurn Pokemon like Scylant and Tornadus-T. Second, the fact that Amoonguss existing doesn't invalidate Fairy/Fighting. Finally, Fairy/Fire has a much more difficult time defeating Tank Garchomp, the best Voltturn punisher, as CAP22 will most likely have to 2HKO it while likely being OHKOed back by Earthquake. I'm not trying to discredit Fairy/Fire completely, as it's still a great typing, but the Amoonguss weakness isn't glaring enough to prevent us from picking Fairy/Fighting.
 

Deck Knight

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**Mod Post**

Just a reminder that the purpose of this thread is to discuss the typing of CAP 22 in the context of fulfilling the concept and its related roles.

While obviously based on usage statistics the threats of Cyclohm, Tomohawk, and Colossoil should be addressed over the course of the project, they each have a very, very different effect on CAP (this project and the meta as a whole). Colossoil can remove the hazards Parting Shot builds on, and it potentially has a slower U-turn. Tomohawk is generally the most difficult to deal with because of priority Roost, it runs a Haze set that can remove its own debuffs, oh, and it removes hazards too! Cylcohm by contrast is mostly just a bulky defensive pokemon with recovery and limited impact on switching games. It's there, but putting it in like its part of a big RPS game is inflating its importance generally, and especially with regard to this concept.

Please focus your posts with that context in mind, rather than building generically on the common metagame threats. Focus on what Pokemon in the metagame DO, not on where they fall on the usage statistics. Relevance to playing in CAP is not the same as relevance to this CAP's specific set and strategies, which in this discussion means Parting Shot and the assumption of at least one competent STAB move for its type(s).

Thank you all, please continue discussing.
 
TL Post

For the most part, I'm pleased with how the typing discussion has gone since my previous post in this thread. Several contributors have made excellent, informative posts. That said, I and other members of the TLT feel that there are certain typings that have potential merit that could use some more discussion. Some in particular that I feel could use more attention are as follows.

Ice/Fighting: This typing seemed popular early in the thread, but it has hardly been mentioned over the past few days. I'm not sure if this is because people no longer support it or because Ice/Ground has stolen its thunder, but I feel this typing could use some more analysis and comparison.

Electric/Grass: Only one person has really been talking about this typing, but it's been argued well. I'd like to see other opinions on this typing's feasibility for CAP 22.

Other Fairy typings: Ground/Fairy, Fighting/Fairy, Fire/Fairy, and Steel/Fairy have all been argued extensively throughout the thread. There have been a few others mentioned, such as Electric/Fairy, that have been mostly ignored. I'd like some comparison between all of them.

I have also noted that the conversations in this thread have mainly turned into posters only defending their own preferred typing. I believe that this is not the most productive way to have a discussion, so I would like everybody from now until the conclusion of the discussion to focus on critiquing and analyzing typings proposed by others instead of just arguing one's own corner.

On that note, I originally was considering closing this thread on Sunday, but this weekend happens to be the 4th of July weekend. As such, I'm giving everybody until 12:00 AM on Tuesday (July 5th) to make their final arguments. Consider this post your 48-hour warning.
 
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I currently am in agreement with HeaLnDeaL's post about CAP 22 being Grass/Electric. However, right now, I am more sided towards it being a dual fairy type like some people have said previously. Fairy/Fighting or Fire/Fairy would be two combinations I would settle for. We do need to think about what kind of pokemon would learn parting shot you see and so a purely physical pokemon just wouldn't do in my opinion. We need a sort of physical/special combo like the two combinations I just said. In terms of actual type matchups, Grass/Electric and Fire/Fairy would be decent at the very least.
Please note that these are just suggestions.
 
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