Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[erisia]

Just responding to the Floatzel debate. What I meant when I said Floatzel doesn't warrant A rank over Tauros and Archeops, I meant because of them. I feel that the degree to which Floatzel is generally outclassed by them (outside of outspeeding only those mons specifically) makes it suitable for A- in my opinion. This also applies to Archeops vs Floatzel as a Taunt user, which is especially important as Archeops can actually do something other than attack to take advantage of the turn if it wants (use Stealth Rock), or if it's running an offensive Taunt set, use U-turn to inflict significant chip damage and break Focus Sashes etc on its way out.

Pokémon that are good but generally outclassed by other Pokémon do not necessarily end up in the rank below them. For example, Rhydon vs Golem: Golem would probably be a solid B rank if Rhydon didn't exist, as it filled its niche pretty well in the BW2 metagame, but is currently Unranked. Raichu is also C+ compared to Manectric at B rank despite minimal differences, Carracosta is B rank despite Barbaracle being at A rank and so on. Floatzel being one rank below a mon that does similar things should not be a valid argument.

Floatzel is also substantially weaker than Tauros, Archeops, and Swellow against neutral targets; I won't bore you with specific calcs but the power difference is relevant.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 208-246 (60.9 - 72.1%)
252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 190-225 (55.7 - 65.9%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 190-225 (55.7 - 65.9%)
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 175-208 (51.3 - 60.9%)

As stated before, the issue between Hydro Pump and Rock Climb isn't just based on the accuracy but also the risk of missing: Tauros can generally live most physical hits while Floatzel will drop. This makes a miss from Floatzel much more costly.

252 Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 171-202 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Floatzel: 264-312 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also Floatzel is definitely not as good as it was before, as Gastrodon now gives it a conflict in what Hidden Power to run, making it easier to check in general. I guess it's subjective whether you feel these differences are enough to warrant a drop to A- or not so feel free to disagree.

 

[Punchshroom]

Articuno is the second fastest Ice-type in the tier behind Cryo

We forgetting about Jynx now?

Articuno may have great neutral coverage, but so do pretty much all of the other Ice-type wallbreakers in the tier. However, Articuno has some substantial drawbacks in comparison. For starters, it doesn't have the greatest or even the most consistent neutral power when compared to Jynx's strong Ice Beam, Aurorus's boosted Hyper Voice, or the Snow Warning Blizzards from Aboma and Aurorus. What Articuno has simply boils down to Freeze-Dry (not too impressive in terms of raw strength), Ice Beam / Frost Breath (still weaker than the primary Ice STABs of its brethren), and the inaccurate Hurricane. While those aren't bad attacks, they're noticeably less consistent or rewarding than the spammable high-powered attacks that its fellow Ice-type wallbreakers are known for. If that weren't enough, Articuno's SR weakness means it requires more maintenance as well. While Cuno is an effective Pokemon, it is both offensively and defensively lesser to its brethren, so B- isn't particularly surprising, especially since it contains similarly effective but outperformed Pokemon such as Cacturne, Chatot, Mr. Mime, and Ninetales. I'm not too against seeing Articuno rise to B, though it'd still seem out of place to me.

And now onto your Aggron post:

Splashability: Despite its low Speed and 4x weakness to two very common attacking types, Aggron is actually pretty easy to fit on balance, bulky offense, and even some offensive teams. Its weaknesses have no end to checks in this tier (Xatu, Scyther, Weezing, Mesprit, Mega Audino, and Rotom come to mind immediately) and it works well with quite a few other mons in the tier, particularly ones that use U-turn or Volt Switch. It also has a pretty useful defensive typing outside of those huge weaknesses, being a soft check to things like Mesprit, Focus Blast-less Jynx, Swellow, Mega Audino, Musharna, and Skuntank.

Yeah, it's definitely not 'pretty easy' to fit Aggron on those teams considering you've used your Rock- and Steel-type slot on a Pokemon that doesn't check the physical Normal-types at all, so just like that, your team's defensive capability is already weakened. Also LO Jynx's Ice Beam cleanly 2HKOes Aggron after Stealth Rock. Aurorus does admittedly have a similar effect on teambuilding, but I'll get to that.

Consistency/Reliability: Aggron gets a KO pretty much every game. It's insanely difficult to not only have multiple checks to this thing that don't stack weaknesses, but reliably predict when it will click its STAB or whatever coverage move it's using to preserve your checks to its STAB.

This seems rather exaggerated; one does not need to have multiple checks as Aggron would only get off those safe hits against only a few Pokemon on the opponent's team at a time, and the fact that there exists a hard counter with reliable recovery in Gastrodon means that Aggron is not even always getting a KO. What's more, Aggron's main attack has 80% accuracy, which is bad considering Aggron can't afford to miss or it loses one of its few crucial attacking opportunities, because no good opponent should really be letting Aggron fire off 4-5 hits per match.

And last but definitely not least, this mon is an almost exact physical counterpart to Aurorus who is in A-. While Aurorus may have the advantage by being a special attacker and as such is not susceptible to burns, Aggron has arguably less switchins and is stronger neutrally (150 BP STAB off of 100 base attack vs 117 BP STAB off of 99 base spatk), stronger coverage moves as well as having a better defensive typing. All in all, I don't think there should be a letter space between the two.

I knew this comparison would be brought up. First off, in a tier known for having such a low supply of special walls that Assault Vest Hariyama and Magmortar are popularized, Aurorus is definitely the one with less switch-ins, compared to Aggron having to deal with really sturdy Rock resists such as Steelix, Rhydon, Ferroseed, Torterra, Poliwrath, and of course Gastrodon; this more than bridges the gap in power, as Aurorus has the easier time spamming its STAB (which lessens the need for stronger coverage moves). Aggron having the better defensive typing is also extremely arguable in a 'shinier of two turds' sense, but Aurorus can use its sheer bulk to tank some of the Pokemon Aggron can with its typing, such as Skuntank, Musharna, and Mega Audino. However, Aurorus's special bulk also enables it to withstand surprise coverage moves, particularly specially offensive Skuntank and offensive Mega Audino, much better than Aggron can, so Aurorus is better insured in that department as well. Hell, Aurorus's abilities give it extra utility, such as giving it a spammable Sub-piercing attack or the ability to cancel weather & nerf weather-dependant recovery. Aggron's ability simply gives it the niche of not dying to its own obscenely strong attack (which means it can't really use Sturdy).

I've made some of my points regarding Aggron on my initial post about it already, and personally I think Aggron's wallbreaking ability and utility are honestly a tad overrated. Like I could use something like a SD + 3 attacks Rhydon and achieve a large majority of what Aggron can, with less need for prediction, actual defensive merit, and potentially greater rewards, with the only apparent drawback I can think of being a bigger incentive to preserve Rhydon's health.

 

[etern]

Unranked > C-/C

This might seem like a strange nomination to some, but Solrock is a surprisingly effective stealth rock setter that has a great matchup against a solid portion of the tier. Its Rock/Psychic typing + Levitate means it can check a variety of Pokemon, including Fire-types such as Magmortar and Pyroar, Normal-types such as Swellow, Kangaskhan and Non-Iron Tail variants of Tauros, as well as virtually every Rock setter (Piloswine, Steelix, Defensive Mesprit, Regirock, Rhydon etc). Obviously it has some downsides to it, such as a vulnerability to Water-, Grass-, and Dark-types (though they all hate being burnt), but it also has many unique features that let it stand out from other Rock-types. Having access to reliable recovery with Morning Sun, and Will-O-Wisp is also really handy, especially when coupled with SR. Overall, while it definitely isn't incredible, the distinctive qualities Solrock brings to a team can be very helpful for specific teams, and therefore it should be ranked accordingly.

Some useful Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Solrock: 143-169 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magmortar Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Solrock: 132-156 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Solrock: 143-169 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solrock: 118-140 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- 58.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solrock: 119-141 (34.6 - 41.1%) -- 64.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Solrock: 89-105 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- 4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Claydol Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Solrock: 122-144 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-392098270
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nususpecttest-392059949
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nususpecttest-392054837
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-392143354

 

[cyanize]

We forgetting about Jynx now?

Articuno may have great neutral coverage, but so do pretty much all of the other Ice-type wallbreakers in the tier. However, Articuno has some substantial drawbacks in comparison. For starters, it doesn't have the greatest or even the most consistent neutral power when compared to Jynx's strong Ice Beam, Aurorus's boosted Hyper Voice, or the Snow Warning Blizzards from Aboma and Aurorus. What Articuno has simply boils down to Freeze-Dry (not too impressive in terms of raw strength), Ice Beam / Frost Breath (still weaker than the primary Ice STABs of its brethren), and the inaccurate Hurricane. While those aren't bad attacks, they're noticeably less consistent or rewarding than the spammable high-powered attacks that its fellow Ice-type wallbreakers are known for. If that weren't enough, Articuno's SR weakness means it requires more maintenance as well. While Cuno is an effective Pokemon, it is both offensively and defensively lesser to its brethren, so B- isn't particularly surprising, especially since it contains similarly effective but outperformed Pokemon such as Cacturne, Chatot, Mr. Mime, and Ninetales. I'm not too against seeing Articuno rise to B, though it'd still seem out of place to me.

i did forget about jynx my b

I agree with most of what you said, which is why Cuno is in B and the other relevant ice type breakers are in the A ranks. I'm thinking of it moreso that Cuno is as good as the mons in B and some in B+ rather than it being similar to the others in B-, since i feel like Articuno has a much easier time performing in the average match than say Cacturne, Prinplup or Misdreavus. In this same way I agree with a Regirock rise, but that's not the subject of this post.

And now onto your Aggron post:
Yeah, it's definitely not 'pretty easy' to fit Aggron on those teams considering you've used your Rock- and Steel-type slot on a Pokemon that doesn't check the physical Normal-types at all, so just like that, your team's defensive capability is already weakened. Also LO Jynx's Ice Beam cleanly 2HKOes Aggron after Stealth Rock. Aurorus does admittedly have a similar effect on teambuilding, but I'll get to that.

i used the jynx set on the calc (sash) without even giving a thought to lo. that's twice now i've messed up on jynx :/

Rocks and Steels aren't even the only way to stop normals. Honestly, the only Normal this makes your MU worse against is Kanga, since the other Normals are pretty comfortably checked by Colbur Bulky Rotom and a special sponge, which is a pretty solid backbone for an Aggron team anyways.
Also, having two Rocks on your team isn't nearly as bad now as it was back in Sawk/Gurdurr meta, since there aren't any mons that are as threatening/dominant as those two that shut down Rocks as easily. Closest I can think of would be Samurott and Lilligant, but one wrong move with either of those and you can easily lose your sweeper.

This seems rather exaggerated; one does not need to have multiple checks as Aggron would only get off those safe hits against only a few Pokemon on the opponent's team at a time, and the fact that there exists a hard counter with reliable recovery in Gastrodon means that Aggron is not even always getting a KO. What's more, Aggron's main attack has 80% accuracy, which is bad considering Aggron can't afford to miss or it loses one of its few crucial attacking opportunities, because no good opponent should really be letting Aggron fire off 4-5 hits per match.

Not bringing multiple checks to Aggron isn't needed, sure, if you don't need to win games vs it. Having only one switchin to any powerful wallbreaker on any archetype bar offense is never a good idea, even if it's only something that can take coverage moves from said wallbreaker (i.e Gastro + Plume: Plume chews coverage moves and Gastro takes care of the STABs). First, every mon you listed bar Gastro and the somewhat rare restalk Poli doesn't have reliable recovery, meaning having only one switchin is going to severely pressure that switchin and going to make it hard for it to be accessible to wall other things even if it does have recovery. Having a Gastro that's perpetually clicking Recover because Aggron is doing 45% with Superpower and you don't have anything else that doesn't die to Head Smash isn't a KO, but it does mean free turns for things like Lilligant/Shiftry/Vivillon/Aboma to come in and get free damage on whatever.
I also don't think any argument that takes accuracy into factor of how well a wallbreaker breaks is valid when 90% of the wallbreakers in this tier and the sole S Rank mon rely on not-perfectly-accurate moves. By that notion, Magmortar shouldn't be a A+ rank wallbreaker because if it misses its Fire Blast, it loses a crucial attacking opportunity because no good opponent should be letting Magmortar fire off 4-5 hits per match. (especially since it's weak to sr)

I knew this comparison would be brought up. First off, in a tier known for having such a low supply of special walls that Assault Vest Hariyama and Magmortar are popularized, Aurorus is definitely the one with less switch-ins, compared to Aggron having to deal with really sturdy Rock resists such as Steelix, Rhydon, Ferroseed, Torterra, Poliwrath, and of course Gastrodon; this more than bridges the gap in power, as Aurorus has the easier time spamming its STAB (which lessens the need for stronger coverage moves). Aggron having the better defensive typing is also extremely arguable in a 'shinier of two turds' sense, but Aurorus can use its sheer bulk to tank some of the Pokemon Aggron can with its typing, such as Skuntank, Musharna, and Mega Audino. However, Aurorus's special bulk also enables it to withstand surprise coverage moves, particularly specially offensive Skuntank and offensive Mega Audino, much better than Aggron can, so Aurorus is better insured in that department as well. Hell, Aurorus's abilities give it extra utility, such as giving it a spammable Sub-piercing attack or the ability to cancel weather & nerf weather-dependant recovery. Aggron's ability simply gives it the niche of not dying to its own obscenely strong attack (which means it can't really use Sturdy).

Grumpig, Mega Audino, Piloswine, Thick Fat Miltank (which is bad but still a switchin) and other ices definitely don't stop Aurorus from spamming Hyper Voice.
Second, you seem to not be taking coverage moves into consideration (which I definitely stated) since including coverage Lix, Rhydon, Seed, and Torterra aren't even switchins (considering a set of HS/Ice Punch/Superpower/Heavy Slam), Poliwrath isn't a switchin unless defensive restalk and even if it is it takes a huge chunk from Superpower which makes it almost mandatory to Rest, and Gastro takes like 45% from Superpower, forcing it to Recover with any prior damage or even none at all. Aurorus has Freeze-Dry and Epower as coverage, and Epower hits two relevant/common things for a notable amount more damage than its STABS, being Magmortar and itself, so any switchins it has are pretty much safe in their positions as such.
Aurorus does have more utility with its abilities, but I haven't seen any convincing proof that Aurorus is substantially better than Aggron in multiple areas to warrant them being a rank apart.

I've made some of my points regarding Aggron on my initial post about it already, and personally I think Aggron's wallbreaking ability and utility are honestly a tad overrated. Like I could use something like a SD + 3 attacks Rhydon and achieve a large majority of what Aggron can, with less need for prediction, actual defensive merit, and potentially greater rewards, with the only apparent drawback I can think of being a bigger incentive to preserve Rhydon's health.

This seems rather exaggerated. First, an SD + 3 attacks Rhydon would need a turn to SD in the first place, meaning it has to waste a turn not weakening its switchin only to switch back out or die/get neutered. Secondly, to have even close to Aggron's damage output, Rhydon would have to have an SD up before hitting something (two CB Aggron Head Smashes > one +2 Rhydon SEdge, and even one Head Smash is stronger than a +2 Jolly Stone Edge, which is problem #1) or have a damage boosting item, which negates that defensive merit you spoke of. And third, I don't see how you would get any greater rewards considering that any (practically nonexistant or extremely situational) situations in which that set would sweep, Aggron would do the same thing, and any situations in which that set would break through a switchin better are very few and far between, and indeed I can only think of one: Mispredict on an SD and go into Lix or smth that resists rock, rock resist dies at high % to an EQ, then their other resist can't ohko back or is slower and dies first to a rock move. Not only that, but that set would have more switchins than Aggron does due to the notable decrease in power - CB Aggron does about 9~10% more on average than a boosted Jolly Rhydon.

 

[Punchshroom]

Not bringing multiple checks to Aggron isn't needed, sure, if you don't need to win games vs it. Having only one switchin to any powerful wallbreaker on any archetype bar offense is never a good idea, even if it's only something that can take coverage moves from said wallbreaker (i.e Gastro + Plume: Plume chews coverage moves and Gastro takes care of the STABs). First, every mon you listed bar Gastro and the somewhat rare restalk Poli doesn't have reliable recovery, meaning having only one switchin is going to severely pressure that switchin and going to make it hard for it to be accessible to wall other things even if it does have recovery. Having a Gastro that's perpetually clicking Recover because Aggron is doing 45% with Superpower and you don't have anything else that doesn't die to Head Smash isn't a KO, but it does mean free turns for things like Lilligant/Shiftry/Vivillon/Aboma to come in and get free damage on whatever.

I believe I've made a mistake here: what I probably meant to say was it's not particularly necessary for offense to consciously bring checks since it's easy for them to dispose of Aggron due to the latter's poor Speed, bad weaknesses, and low special bulk. As for bulkier teams, the fact still stands that Aggron has substantially more safe switch-ins to it than Aurorus does, regardless of their access to recovery. On the other hand, if your argument was that the majority of Aggron's switch-ins have low offensive presence, then I can agree with you on that.

I also don't think any argument that takes accuracy into factor of how well a wallbreaker breaks is valid when 90% of the wallbreakers in this tier and the sole S Rank mon rely on not-perfectly-accurate moves. By that notion, Magmortar shouldn't be a A+ rank wallbreaker because if it misses its Fire Blast, it loses a crucial attacking opportunity because no good opponent should be letting Magmortar fire off 4-5 hits per match. (especially since it's weak to sr)

Tbh I was being rather generous regarding Aggron firing 4-5 hits, because so far I can't recall the last time I've seen Aggron use more than 3 in a match that doesn't have a Gastrodon in it (and this is more because Gastro inherently prolongs a game). Most of the mons with only one option for STAB that happens to be innacurate usually have enough neutral bulk to survive some of their misses, such as Tauros, Magmortar, Samurott, and Omastar. erisia's post regarding Floatzel's accuracy issues also ties into this, as Floatzel's inability to afford a miss hampers its otherwise amazing Speed tier + offensive prowess. Incidentally, for a Pokemon as easily revenged / forced out as Aggron, it definitely wants to make every hit count, and completely whiffing an attack can be huge.

Grumpig, Mega Audino, Piloswine, Thick Fat Miltank (which is bad but still a switchin) and other ices definitely don't stop Aurorus from spamming Hyper Voice. Second, you seem to not be taking coverage moves into consideration (which I definitely stated) since including coverage Lix, Rhydon, Seed, and Torterra aren't even switchins (considering a set of HS/Ice Punch/Superpower/Heavy Slam), Poliwrath isn't a switchin unless defensive restalk and even if it is it takes a huge chunk from Superpower which makes it almost mandatory to Rest, and Gastro takes like 45% from Superpower, forcing it to Recover with any prior damage or even none at all. Aurorus has Freeze-Dry and Epower as coverage, and Epower hits two relevant/common things for a notable amount more damage than its STABS, being Magmortar and itself, so any switchins it has are pretty much safe in their positions as such.

First off, Mega Audino needs to be specially defensive to avoid being 2HKOed (and even then there's a decent chance with Hail + SR in play), and the other Ice-types indeed do not stop Aurorus from spamming its Ice attacks (Piloswine is 3HKOed by Aurorus's STAB more often than not). Yes, I know coverage moves do help Aggron's standing, but Aurorus is less reliant on its coverage moves. As far as these two slow mons with bad defensive typing are concerned, the more they get to spam their STABs (and predict less) the better, and Aurorus wins in this category. Aurorus covers a lot more than Aggron can with their respective STABs, and Freeze-Dry even allows Aurorus to maintain coverage on the mons it wants to threaten with its primary attack, making it even easier to spam.

This seems rather exaggerated. First, an SD + 3 attacks Rhydon would need a turn to SD in the first place, meaning it has to waste a turn not weakening its switchin only to switch back out or die/get neutered. Secondly, to have even close to Aggron's damage output, Rhydon would have to have an SD up before hitting something (two CB Aggron Head Smashes > one +2 Rhydon SEdge, and even one Head Smash is stronger than a +2 Jolly Stone Edge, which is problem #1) or have a damage boosting item, which negates that defensive merit you spoke of. And third, I don't see how you would get any greater rewards considering that any (practically nonexistant or extremely situational) situations in which that set would sweep, Aggron would do the same thing, and any situations in which that set would break through a switchin better are very few and far between, and indeed I can only think of one: Mispredict on an SD and go into Lix or smth that resists rock, rock resist dies at high % to an EQ, then their other resist can't ohko back or is slower and dies first to a rock move. Not only that, but that set would have more switchins than Aggron does due to the notable decrease in power - CB Aggron does about 9~10% more on average than a boosted Jolly Rhydon.

I probably have exaggerated the comparison (especially against the matchup against bulky Grass-types), but I wasn't so much comparing their damage output but rather their utility (aka what would you use Aggron for?); Aggron functions as a disgustingly strong holepuncher that takes advantage of a certain few mons, and Rhydon also has a fairly favorable matchup against those mons while having a boosting move + better defensive merit. This analogy is somewhat weak though so I won't press it further.

 

[toreutic]

Support ranking of Solrock, cool if not niche option that does quite a bit of role compression.

Also just browsing through the rankings haphazardly, and think Mr.Mime should drop from B- > C.

Seriously, this thing is horribly outclassed in every sense.

Offensively, Jynx is significantly stronger, sits at a better speed tier, provides defensive synergy with its immunity to water, and supports a much better secondary stab. Mime is literally inferior in every way, other than being able to deal with grumpig and swellow better.

From a support standpoint, mespirit has much better utility, and supports significantly more bulk while still being fast enough to get off a healing wish.

Even CM BP is covered by musharna, which actually has the bulk to pull such a maneuver off.

Down with the mime imo.

 

[Abejas]

Agreeing to B/B+
I've been playing a lot lately with articuno and yes it does have some big huge drawbacks like being 4 times weak to rocks, but besides that its such a bulky mon and is a huge threat to balanced teams. And it also has some different sets you can use:

• Life orb 3 attacks: Im not a huge fan of this set but it does put a lot of work against bulky teams that dont use ice resist or use hariyama as the ice resist. And can put huge dents on opposing teams to let some late game sweepers to clean up games like SD samurott. Tho I think this set is outclassed by other stronger ice types like jynx and aurorus.
• Sub-Toxic: This is probably my favourite set in this meta right now. It can just stall out so many mons its not even funny, being able to tank super effictive hits, just roost the damage up and toxic stall, also is a great counter to stuff like LO abomasnow unless it packs the legendary move: rock slide, specs aurorus and specs mesprit, roost up the damage that rotom does and also check ludicolo which is huge against rain teams, and is one great lilligant counter if it doesnt have hp rock. It also has a great ability to help this strat out being Pressure, which lets it stall out some low pp moves like Fire Blast.

wall of calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Articuno: 126-149 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- 10% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Articuno: 126-150 (32.8 - 39.1%) -- 9.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Articuno: 162-192 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Psychic vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Articuno: 142-168 (37 - 43.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Articuno: 283-335 (73.8 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (you can roost up the damage and then switch out)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Articuno: 178-210 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Articuno in Rain: 204-242 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Articuno: 104-125 (27.1 - 32.6%) -- 69.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Articuno: 205-244 (53.5 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It can also set up subs against some weak attacks like scald from gastrodon and other weak water attacks and special attacks and just stall them out with toxic and freeze dry. Its also a solid check to mega audino and musharna tho Synchronize can be anoying.​

Another wall of calcs

0 SpA Gastrodon Scald vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Articuno in Rain: 84-99 (21.9 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
48 SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Articuno: 52-63 (13.5 - 16.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Musharna Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 93-109 (24.2 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Musharna Psychic vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Articuno: 70-84 (18.2 - 21.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Its also a nice check to sd samurott since freeze dry is a 2hko and it can take a +2 aqua jet pretty well.
Yes in the end it does have some big drawbacks like weak to rocks and just free set up bait for a lot of mons but with the right support its actually a huge threat to teams and its pretty fun to use and a great antimeta mon. This is the spread I've been using:
Articuno @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 120 SpD / 140 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Roost
- Substitute
- Toxic

 

[ryan]

The problem I have with Articuno and the main reason why I never use the thing is because it doesn't offer a lot of synergy. The 4x Stealth Rock weakness aside, Articuno resists all of: Bug, Grass, and Ground, and nearly every Ground-type in the tier can threaten it barring like Claydol and Gastrodon, which are hardly difficult to switch into as it is. Articuno has gotten better offensively thanks to Gastrodon, as it can switch in really easily and then do some serious damage or get a kill on something. But even in that role, I'd rather use other Pokemon that can do the same thing while offering more utility and defensive synergy like Lilligant or Mismagius. Basically, Articuno is threatening and does some things well, but other Pokemon are more threatening and do those same things better.

Speaking of shitty Ice-types, I think Abomasnow is too high in A-. It's another really scary Pokemon that doesn't do much outside of switch into Gastrodon and attack something. It's not even a very good switch into bulky Waters because the most common of these is Lanturn, which is going to Volt Switch every time when you have an Abomasnow. That basically means you have to play very aggressively with Abomasnow, which is hard to do because a single misprediction will often mean that Abomasnow just dies. If you look over the criteria in the second post of the thread, I don't think Abomasnow fills any of them. Its threat level is not as high as you'd think because it has to get in safely and often outspeed the opposing Pokemon before it can even be threatening, which is really difficult. This also hurts its consistency. It's not splashable at all, and it has little effect on the metagame. B+ or B would probably be best for Abomasnow.

 

[Punchshroom]

Speaking of shitty Ice-types, I think Abomasnow is too high in A-. It's another really scary Pokemon that doesn't do much outside of switch into Gastrodon and attack something. It's not even a very good switch into bulky Waters because the most common of these is Lanturn, which is going to Volt Switch every time when you have an Abomasnow. That basically means you have to play very aggressively with Abomasnow, which is hard to do because a single misprediction will often mean that Abomasnow just dies. If you look over the criteria in the second post of the thread, I don't think Abomasnow fills any of them. Its threat level is not as high as you'd think because it has to get in safely and often outspeed the opposing Pokemon before it can even be threatening, which is really difficult. This also hurts its consistency. It's not splashable at all, and it has little effect on the metagame. B+ or B would probably be best for Abomasnow.

Putting Abomasnow below stuff like Aurorus, Aggron, Primeape and on par with the more modest attackers residing in B seems really absurd to me. I don't think it's fair to say that Abomasnow isn't a very good switch-in to bulky Waters due to the ubiquitous Lanturn's use of Volt Switch because really, what mon in this tier even manages to safely switch into all the bulky Waters while threatening all of them? Abomasnow even manages to check certain offensive Water-types, such as Ludicolo and Omastar, with decent enough efficiency. The misprediction factor also rarely matters because Ice STAB is notoriously painful to switch into in NU (also a big factor for Aurorus's ranking as well), and Abomasnow is very well equipped even compared to its brethren to deal with nearly any potential Ice resistances. Ice Shard is also a really nice tool for Abomasnow to have to snipe down the speedy Flying- and Grass-types.

I feel like your points could be applied to all the Ice-type wallbreakers not named Jynx in the tier, so you might as well just drop Aurorus, Articuno, Regice, and Lapras's ranking as well, and perhaps even unranking Rotom-F, though these are not outcomes I desire (with one exception). Even then, Abomasnow is not even so linear to only be ran as an all-out attacker either, since it has access to Swords Dance to surprise regular checks while maintaining wallbreaking power and even have potential cleaning ability. Abomasnow even has a workable SubSeed set, which can annoy its fatter checks and more importantly help ease misprediction and switches. Abomasnow most definitely doesn't deserve to drop in Rank, or at least not while most of its Ice-type brethren remain in their respective ranks.

 

[ryan]

Common bulky Waters as a category is a whopping: Lanturn and Gastrodon. Outside of that, I've heard of bulky Omastar picking up some usage, but I don't see a lot of value in a defensive Rock-type that gets 2HKO'd by Tauros. Mantine and Pelipper see a little usage, but the former occasionally rocks Air Slash can take any one hit while the latter usually packs U-turn.

Primeape is outright ranked too highly in a tier where packing a bulky Poison-type is easy and isn't even often done for the Fighting resist. That doesn't make Abomasnow not-worthy of B+. I'd also put it at about the same level of power as Aurorus and Aggron, two slower breakers that are difficult to bring in comfortably and have immediate presence on the field. Aurorus is, in my Humble Opinion, better than Abomasnow because its typing allows it to take on stuff like Scyther, Specs Swellow, Signal Beam Xatu, etc. on more reliably. These are more difficult Pokemon to take on than bulky Water-types, and the threat level outside of Abomasnow's priority is similar. Its better bulk also helps it take hits from opposing offensive Pokemon better. Calcs:

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aurorus: 252-298 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 294-346 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aurorus: 309-367 (79.8 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 307-364 (95.6 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aurorus: 304-359 (78.5 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 354-416 (110.2 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Mesprit Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aurorus: 192-227 (49.6 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Mesprit Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 208-246 (64.7 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Mesprit Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aurorus: 175-208 (45.2 - 53.7%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mesprit Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 188-224 (58.5 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The difference between Abomasnow and other Ice-types is that others aren't ranked too highly. Those negative attributes of Abomasnow that apply to other Ice-types are a big reason why, apart from Aurorus, they aren't A-. SubSeed is garbage, idk why you're bringing it up. SD is cute, but it makes it a way worse switch-in to bulky Waters that all pack Scald.

 

[Punchshroom]

Aurorus is, in my Humble Opinion, better than Abomasnow because its typing allows it to take on stuff like Scyther, Specs Swellow, Signal Beam Xatu, etc. on more reliably. These are more difficult Pokemon to take on than bulky Water-types, and the threat level outside of Abomasnow's priority is similar.

While I won't deny Aurorus has more potential than Abomasnow in this meta, the former two commonly pack U-turn and potentially Xatu as well, which is slightly odd to me when you argued against Abomasnow with Lanturn's Volt Switch earlier. I mean I suppose U-turn isn't what Swellow would prefer to be spamming but I digress.

The difference between Abomasnow and other Ice-types is that others aren't ranked too highly. Those negative attributes of Abomasnow that apply to other Ice-types are a big reason why, apart from Aurorus, they aren't A-. SubSeed is garbage, idk why you're bringing it up. SD is cute, but it makes it a way worse switch-in to bulky Waters that all pack Scald.

Well the reason I brought up SubSeed is because you said you had issues with Aboma mispredicting, and in my testing I found SubSeed Aboma to alleviate that issue by a decent degree while maintaining some of its holepunching power, so long as you have switch-ins to Aboma's hard checks (especially since Leech Seed eases switches).

I guess I'm ok with Aboma in B+, and yeah Primeape is too high in B+; I always thought it was B tbh.

Speaking of mons that are too high in B+...

B+ to B-

So apparently this was supposed to move down to B Rank in the last update, but like erisia I share his sentiments about moving Rotom-S even further down. There is barely anything Rotom-S can do that Rotom cannot (especially with a bulkier set) in this meta. Rotom-S's typing leaves it both easier to wall (no STAB Hex, so it needs HP Grass) and easier to wear down (weak to Stealth Rock, and the need for HP Grass makes Pain Split harder to fit onto its moveset). In fact I'm not even sure what Rotom-S offers in this meta at all; it's not a particularly notable pivot into Fighting-types since Hitmonchan carries Ice Punch and the presence of Charizard means that Stone Edge is now a reasonable move to assume on the other Fighting-types. It cannot even respond to Lilligant as it beats Rotom-S 1v1 if it Quivers on the switch. I mean sure it resists Vivillon's Flying + Grass coverage, but Rotom outspeeds Vivillon in the first place. Rotom-S is a very unimpressive mon in this meta, especially with its relative lack of raw power and Speed plus huge competition with Rotom.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Changes:

Abomasnow A- -> B+
Smeargle B -> B-
Rotom-S B -> B-
Regirock B- -> B
Mr. Mime B- -> C+
Cradily C+ -> C
Muk C -> C-
Marowak C -> D
Solrock Unranked -> C-

This time around nearly all of the voting was unanimous or 1 vote from being unanimous, but the only nomination which we did not follow through with that had some slight controversy was dropping Floatzel, so feel free to use that as a discussion point.

 

[ryan]

I know Punchshroom agreed to an Abomasnow drop and that it did drop, but I just wanted to address one of his points really quickly. He said that I brought up that Lanturn runs Volt Switch, which limits Abomasnow's effectiveness, and then brought up some Pokemon that Aurorus can switch into that commonly run U-turn. The difference between these is that the Pokemon I listed are fast, offensive Pokemon, which are significantly harder to deal with for most teams than Lanturn. So yes, they commonly run U-turn and can still shift momentum in the favor of the opponent just like Lanturn can against Abomasnow. But having an offensive check to offensive Pokemon is harder than having an offensive check to a defensive Pokemon.

 

[KingSwordYT]

Why is Zangoose so low?

It should be in B.

When this mon is boosted by the toxic orb, it becomes a monster, It 2hko all the tier. I know that It is weak to Priority users, and faster mon, but this thing break a lot the opposing teams, and has a decent speed. It is a bit fragile, i have to say, but after been using this mon in all the suspect i can say that this mon works very well as a wallbreaker..
It also has a nice movepool, with access to facade, Knock Off, Close Combat and Priority in Quick attack.
The speed is decent, few switch-ins, decent movepool, and huge attack after being boosted by Toxic Boost make this mon an high thread in the tier, that's why im telling that this mon should be in B, Or maybe Higher

Here are some calcs:
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 309-364 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 226-266 (64.3 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 214-254 (60.7 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Mega Audino: 219-258 (53.4 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 276-325 (63.7 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 237-280 (70.9 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Aggron: 428-504 (124.4 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 276-325 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 148+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 222-262 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This again the principal walls of the tier. Any mon receive a Clean Switch-In again this monster

 

[KnightK]

Why is Zangoose so low?

It should be in B.

When this mon is boosted by the toxic orb, it becomes a monster, It 2hko all the tier. I know that It is weak to Priority users, and faster mon, but this thing break a lot the opposing teams, and has a decent speed. It is a bit fragile, i have to say, but after been using this mon in all the suspect i can say that this mon works very well as a wallbreaker..
It also has a nice movepool, with access to facade, Knock Off, Close Combat and Priority in Quick attack.
The speed is decent, few switch-ins, decent movepool, and huge attack after being boosted by Toxic Boost make this mon an high thread in the tier, that's why im telling that this mon should be in B, Or maybe Higher

Here are some calcs:
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 309-364 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 226-266 (64.3 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 214-254 (60.7 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Mega Audino: 219-258 (53.4 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 276-325 (63.7 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 237-280 (70.9 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Aggron: 428-504 (124.4 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 276-325 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 148+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 222-262 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This again the principal walls of the tier. Any mon receive a Clean Switch-In again this monster

Don't have an opinion on this just want want to point out the fact you are neglecting to mention just how easily worn down Zangoose is.

The primary issue with Zangoose in this tier and why it was dropped harshly a while back is simply that Tauros exists, and most of the time you may as well use that. The fact that you included calcs is great but know simply showing output power is only half the story, if power was everything rampardos would be S tier. Take your first calc for example Zangoose Facades a garbodor and you are lucky enough to get the 6% roll or maybe garb is weakened (best case scenario) you lose 16% health to rocky helmet, 25% to aftermath, and then your poison toll, and if you switched into any hazards thats adds up to. Now you have a half health zangoose that is most of the time getting off a last ditch quick attack before being revenge killed because base 90 speed isn't phenomenal especially if you want to run Adamant. Almost all of those calcs can similarly be done by Tauros who doesn't have to contact Garb cuz of EQ, and can 2hko Ferroseed without contact with Fire blast.

The vileplume calc and maybe the weezing one are really the only calcs I see that zangoose has a flat advantage due to it already being statused (screw effect spore) but even then if you don't facade on the switch they are slamming it with a sludge bomb and leaving it at like 35% cause zangoose can't take a hit unless tauros. That said Zangoose has 100% accurate moves so
\_(ツ)_/¯ I really don't have an opinion on your nom just wanted to point out those facts.

 

[Grim Thoughts]

Why isn't Lunatone on the list at all? He's a pretty great setup tank

 

[Shadestep]

Why isn't Lunatone on the list at all? He's a pretty great setup tank

It doesn't get Will-o-Wisp, which Solrock does. There are way better 'set-up tanks' than Lubatone, like Rhydon, although if you were going to run Lunatone (which you shouldn't, it's mostly outclassed by other Pokemon), I doubt a set-up tank set would be the way to go for it. Maybe you could try RP, but Solrock pulls that off more succesfully because Wisp actually gives it set-up opportunities.

Anyways, Solrock itself isn't all that great hence its low placement on the VR, and its main appeal is being able to check normal-types like Kangaskhan and non-Iron Tail Tauros. Lunatone has way lower Defense so it wouldn't be able to check those normal types half as effectively as Solrock would.

 

[etern]

(Warning: this is probably gonna be a rly long post)

A+ > S: This is a nom I've been holding onto for a while, but I think its pretty clear now that Jynx is one of the best mons in the tier for a number of reasons. For starters, it's got really good dual STAB with Psyshock/Ice Beam + Focus Blast as coverage to break apart almost everything. Nasty Plot + Lovely Kiss legitimately just breaks apart teams from turn 1, and puts immense pressure on the opponent no matter what part of the match it comes in. Dry Skin gives Jynx some solid defensive utility for offensive teams, and can act as a solid scald absorber. Then we've got the Choice Scarf Set which is arguably one of, if not the best Scarfer in the tier for revenging and putting dangerous mons to sleep with ease. And finally, a set that's been getting more popular as of late, Sub NP with lefties, which is another very scary breaker that protects Jynx from random Twaves and being revenge killed.

Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets.

By going off the description of an S rank mon, Jynx clearly fits the criteria as it will always be able to positively contribute to a game with high reward and a low amount of risk. Overall, Jynx is an incredibly scary mon that fits the criteria for an S rank mon, and is definitely up there with Tauros as being one of the best mons in the tier.

Now with that out of the way, I have a couple smaller noms to make:

C- > D/Unranked: Frogadier has the niche of being a Protean user with Tspikes, but apart from that it really doesnt have much else going for it. It faces competition from basically every other offensive Water-type in the tier which either bring more power, more speed, or other unique traits which arent limited to setting up Toxic Spikes and getting KOed. With Omastar in the tier, Frogadier faces even more competition than ever before as an offensive tspiker, especially when Omastar has defensive merit, access to more than one hazard, and Shell Smash to boot. Even offensive Garbodor gives Frogadier a run for its money, being able to lure Xatu and 2HKO it, as well as actually threaten other hazard removalists like Hitmonchan and Mantine (although granted, Frogadier does threaten Claydol at least). Nowadays, Frogadier is just not something I'd consider on a serious team when there are just so many better options out there.

A+ > A: Nowadays having multiple Normal-type checks is common, and Kangaskhan greatly struggles to break them down without a reasonable amount of support. It still functions as a great offense killer and weather check, but needs a bit more support than any of the other mons in A+ and should probably move down to A.

A- > B+/B: Mismagius was always teetering on the edge of A- for me, but I think its finally time for this to drop down. As a Fighting-type "check" Missy struggles to switch into Hariyama and Hitmonchan with the threat of taking a big chunk from Knock Off and Ice Punch respectively. Guts Hariyama is also getting much more common which Mismagius does not appreciate. The Nasty Plot set faces the same issues as always with struggling to find set-up opportunities, and being easily revenge killed. Mismagius is by no means a bad Pokemon, but at the moment it doesnt really fit well enough in A-.

B+ > B: Basically everything ryan said about Primeape is 100% true. It gets stopped by basically every bulky Poison-type in the tier like Garbodor, Weezing, and Vileplume (all of which are very common). It even struggles to break past most Ghost-types without either being outsped (Mismagius), risking a speed tie (Haunter) or straight out being unable to hurt them (Golurk, Gourgeist-XL, Bulky Rotom). More often that not, you'll be clicking U-turn because it's just so difficult to spam and be locked into your STAB move. The Choice Band set still works as a decent wallbreaker, but it just really struggles to actually wallbreak against fat teams, and gets easily revenge killed versus offensive teams. The Scarf set works nicely against offensive teams and gets a bit too much flak, but its just deadweight against balanced teams. Overall, Primeape would be a much better fit in B.

D > Unranked: Aside from Baton Pass shenanigans, Lopunny doesnt do much at all that another Normal-type cant do much more effectively. Cosmic Pass is a very shaky/gimmicky strategy that in most situations you wouldn't consider on a serious team. This should be unranked.

C+ > C: Tangela faces big competition from Vileplume rn, since absorbing Tspikes is a pretty huge bonus for teams. Regenerator is a nice niche, but unfortunately being crippled by Knock Off and Tspikes really bogs down Tangela's potential. For the most part, Vileplume can do everything Tangela does just that extra bit more effectively, so unless you need a Pokemon with Tangela's specific qualities, it wouldn't really be something you throw onto a team very often. C would fit this mon a lot better.

 

[ryan]

Damn, I was about to post a bunch of stuff that I thought could warrant moving, but you guys, especially Eternally, sniped me on a lot of them. I'll post the full list anyways.

Right now, the Viability Rankings don't do the best job of reflecting the metagame, and there is a serious oversaturation of Pokemon in A+ and A.

A+ -> S
S rank is looking really lonely, and Jynx has really taken over as one of the top Pokemon in the tier. Sub Nasty Plot has been on a tear lately, and it's not at all surprising. Most teams are already pretty Ice weak, and the few Ice resists that are floating around are either not reliable Ice resists or can't do a lot to Jynx in return. More than that, Jynx can run anything from SubPlot to Scarf to Life Orb to Focus Sash with a variety of moves among all of these sets being viable. Lovely Kiss makes all of these sets even better, including Scarf, because even if you can't revenge something, you still have the ability to sleep it. Water immunity and Ice and Psychic resist add so much more, allowing it to fit well on every archetype barring stall.

A+ -> A
The meta is really unkind to Kangaskhan. As Eternally said, many teams pack more than one Normal check, and in a metagame where Tauros is available and most teams are prepared for Spikes, it's hard to justify using Kangaskhan. Garbodor also heavily punishes Fake Out and can be seen everywhere.

A+ -> A
Rhydon has taken over as the Normal check of choice because Tauros's Fire Blast does so much to Steelix. Steelix also struggles as a Psychic resist because most Psychic-types carry coverage for Steelix (Grass Knot and Hidden Power Ground for Mesprit, Ice Beam and Focus Blast for Jynx, Malamar sets up on it if it comes in first). There's not much else to say about Steelix aside from that it's a fine Pokemon that does well in the metagame but that there are other options that are generally better.

A+ -> A
Swellow is really strong and I wouldn't mind it not dropping. However, its damage output is just shy of being great, which means it just barely misses out on a lot of OHKOs vs offensive Pokemon and 2HKOs vs defensive ones. As I mentioned earlier, this metagame is pretty well prepared for Spikes, which furthers Swellow's troubles. It also lacks the synergy that the aforementioned Jynx offers, which makes it harder to put on a team.

A -> A-
Barbaracle finds a lot of trouble setting up right now, and until you can get it out and click Shell Smash, it often feels like you're down 5-6 from the get-go. You really can't afford to bring it out early because it needs all the health it can get when you set up. Hitmonchan is also everywhere, which really hurts Barbaracle because even if it does set up, there's often priority sitting in the back, waiting to pick it off. You can run Chople Berry to help with this, but then if the opponent doesn't have Hitmonchan, your item is practically useless because the only other common Fighting-type is Hariyama, which does tons to you anyways.

A -> A-
This has been ongoing for a while, but my big issue with Floatzel is that it often doesn't feel strong enough to justify using. While it does very well vs offensive teams, the loss of Sawk and Sceptile shifted the metagame far more toward balance and bulky offense. Unless it's carrying Hidden Power Grass, Gastrodon handles Floatzel incredibly easily, and other common special sponges such as Lanturn and Mega Audino have a really time handling it as well. Jynx's rising popularity also hurts Floatzel a ton because it has to think twice before clicking Hydro Pump, which makes it much easier to switch into as its other coverage is inaccurate or weak.

A -> A-
Ludicolo is another Pokemon that is hurt a lot by Jynx's rise in popularity. Even without considering that, despite how incredibly threatening it is, Ludicolo is often just inferior to more consistent choices such as Lilligant, which have a much easier time setting up. Being the most threatening Pokemon after setting up isn't really the goal in NU because we have a number of scary breakers that don't need to set up to tear things apart. You're usually better off with stuff that can clean after setting up, and you want that setup to be as easy as possible.

A- -> A
Hitmonchan is our tier's best spinner, and it has been everywhere. Fighting priority, immediate presence on the field, not weak to Stealth Rock, etc. Its rank should reflect how popular it has become.

B+ -> B
The only things Primeape has going for it are U-turn and Earthquake for Garbodor. Aside from that, Primeape offers very little for a well-built team because it's so frail and not very strong.

B -> B+
Carracosta does well in Tauros-dominated metas (see BW2) because it's one of few Rock-types that doesn't take too much from Earthquake and it has a threatening presence on the field. While Regirock has Thunder Wave going for it, Carracosta has a much more important benefit in being able to threaten Rhydon with Scald. Shell Smash is also better in a Tauros-dominated metagame, and there are few Pokemon that outspeed it after +2. Hitmonchan hurts the Shell Smash set just like it hurt's Barbaracle, but Carracosta's combination of both makes it great.

B -> B-
Grumpig is terrible. It takes on Fire- and Ice-types well, and few other Pokemon can do both in one slot. But in return, it offers very little to a team. It is laughable easy to switch into, and all you really have to fear from it is Thunder Wave. There are much more consistent Fire- and Ice-type checks, even if you might not be able to compress them easily into one slot.

B- -> C+
When was the last time this did anything relevant?

B- -> B+
Great Tauros answer that is really, really difficult to switch into. Also comes in for free against most Garbodor.

B- -> B
No big meta changes to make it better, but Zangoose is the most threatening Pokemon in the tier and has priority for faster checks.

 

[KingSwordYT]

A+ -> S
I Agree with the Jynx Viability shift, considering that only few teams have an important ice resist, and Jynx has a nice moveset, the Sub+Nasty Plot set is pretty good, it has access to Lovely Kiss, which makes hard to select an effective switch-in answer against Jynx. It also has nice base stats, with good speed, and SpA, excepting its poor defense (35)

Frogadier and lopunny Should be unranked, they are very outclassed, low effectiveness and fit well in very few teams.

A- -> A
I Agree with this shift, Hitmonchan is actually the best spinner in the metagame, it's seen in lots of teams, cuz it fits very well, and brings a priority super effective move against the normal spam.

Also think Grumpig should be in C At least, it is very outclassed by Musharna, not even a Good tank, the only thing this mon does well is being a Fire/Ice answer. It is also kinda weak against physical attackers, and fits well in few teams. I don't think this mon deserves be in B any more.

A -> A-

I agree with this drop. Both Standard sets Floatzel has (Bulk Up and the Special One) are very weak Against Jynx, outside of Crunch that is not very common, It is a Good answer against the Rock/Ground/Fire Types, but it is not too powerful, and many other walls can stop it very well

I think that Pinsir also need to drop to B, it is weakened by faster revenge killers, so it cannot setup easily, the moxie set isn't well enough, after a SD it becomes a nice wallbreaker, but actually there are many faster wallbreakers and answers to it

 

[ryan]

I think I had Pinsir on my list originally, not sure what happened to it. I agree with it dropping.

 

[PrinceLucian]

A > A- : Lanturn was one of most common choices for balanced teams in pre Gastro/aggron meta, sets varying from offensive pivot set to defensive cleric,and being pretty good answer to special water/fire/electric answers in tier. Unfortunately for lanturn, Gastrodon is a great wall thats seen more and more usage, and its not limited to only defensive teams. Gastro completely shuts down the defensive lanturn, and threatens opponents team with scald since there arent many switchins to it. Best Lanturn set rn is offensive AV pivot with HP Grass, which is really easy to wear down. AV with no HP investment automatically becomes worse answer to fire types like hyper voice pyroar,EQ magmortar, and water types like megahorn Rott. Its still a decent pokemon,but not with potential as before.

B+ > A- : After using this pokemon and realising how much threats it walls, having reliable recovery and excellent ability in storm drain, i think it should move up. Its a check to Kabutops,omastar,barbaracle,costa, DD rhydon, almost every rocker in tier from piloswine to steelix, it walls Archeops, evades 2 KO from Tauros, Aggron, and Clear smog allows it to deal with SD samurott. It stops defensive lanturn,checks rotom due to electric immunity.Poison types like skuntank and weezing cant do much either,and it threatens them with scald. Really good and reliable pokemon in general.

B > B+ : Similarly to Gastrodon,Poliwrath also checks similar pokemon from Kabutops to samurott, DD don and smashers. It has a good defensive typing thats also great offensively, water and fighting coverage can hit a lot things, it can run coverage moves from Ice beam/EQ to hp grass. Despite its mediocre sp.atk ,with LO/Choice specs it hits hard enough, while Lefties can give it longevity. Poliwrath also gets decent priority, and Vacum wave allows it to finish some normal types like tauros,kanga,pyroar,omastar...

B- > C : Misdreavus is outclassed by its evolution as a spinblocker,due to high speed,fast taunt and stronger hex. While it may seem that Misdreavus with Eviolite can check normal/fighting types , only ones it actually checks are tauros and hitmonchan, while kangaskhan/swellow beats it, and hariyama/zangoose with knock off can cripple it easily.Its also annoyed by stallbreak skuntank set,which is used pretty often and misdreavus cant volt swith like Rotom or activate colbur like missy. Misdreavus is a pokemon that competes for a teamslot and usually doesnt find a good place on teams that isnt outclassed, its mostly a niche pokemon.

D> Unranked: Slaking is not an example of a good pokemon in NU, despite having high stats and huge atk its ability Truant makes it outright terrible. Losing momentum in NU in a tier with big number of setup sweepers like QDs, Smashers, can be really bad for players who are new in NU. It doesnt have notable niches, since its outclassed by reliable revenge killers/wallbreakers like Tauros, Swellow,zangoose. Slaking is definitely not a pokemon that I wouldnt recommend using, and therefore its better of unranked.

anyways i agree with Noms above, I think ludicolo is fine in A tho,since it sets rain easily and theres no much pokemon that switches into its coverage.
Zangoose is also pretty interesting normal type that I used to success, great wall/stallbreaker and deserves a try, with spikes support it can pretty much Ohko everything not named regirock/steelix.

 

[Josh]

i dont agree with unranking slaking, and i actually think its better than people give it credit for. its a momentum suck, yeah, but its a really good revenge killer. the main thing people seem to underestimate is its bulk. it can tank just about any unboosted neutral hit (and quite a few se ones as well) and retaliate extremely hard.

+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Slaking: 297-349 (67.3 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vivillon: 505-595 (167.7 - 197.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (scarf still ohkos if you wanna run that)

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 208-246 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 306-360 (105.1 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

its a 50/50 with normal resists, but eq smacks most of them extremely hard, easily 2hkoing steelix and rhydon, archeops takes over 70, and if you have night slash no bulky mismagius takes over 50 with a colbur, but i prefer pursuit.


yeah slaking has a slew of problems, namely how exploitable a guaranteed free turn is, but it is very strong, extremely bulky, and has a decent enough speed tier. i really dont think it should be unranked. its d rank, not a.

 

[PrinceLucian]

Slaking definitely isnt a reliable revenge killer, as without Choice band/with scarf equipped opponent can deal with it much easier since theres plenty of normal resists in NU. Besides, it shouldnt be a check to quiver dancers, as magmortar/rock types deal with vivillon better, and vivillons usually carry focus sash. Losing momentum in Nu can be huge to newer players which are unprepared for all threats and setup sweepers that Nu offers. Tauros also kills everything that slaking should and you listed here, as well as dealing big damage with fire blast/iron tail/EQ to rockers and doesnt lose momentum. Sure,tauros doesnt have as big atk, but there are better wallbreakers to use that dont sack momentum. Its just not a good example of a NU pokemon worthy ranking/niche and in most cases will cause more damage than benefits to teams.

 

[ryan]

I disagree with Lanturn dropping. It's certainly not the "slap it on a team and it's suddenly better" kind of Pokemon that it was in past metagames, but it's still really easy to fit onto a team because it's one of few bulky Water-types in the tier and one of two that can come in and then pivot back out. Outside of Torterra and Gastrodon, Scald punishes Ground-types attempting to block Volt Switch, and other Electric-immune Pokemon such as Electivire and Manectric take quite a bit from Scald as well. Pair Lanturn with one of many Pokemon that can take advantage of Gastrodon (Lilligant, Torterra because you've got Heal Bell on Lanturn for Scald burns anyways, Jynx if they're not running Earthquake, etc.) and you're usually in good shape. Strongly disagree with AV Lanturn being the best set. Lanturn already has troubles being worn down too quickly, and I don't think you can really afford to sacrifice Leftovers recovery. Plus, Toxic deals with Gastrodon nearly as well as HP Grass if you build your team in a way that Gastrodon doesn't matter much. If your team really struggles with Gastrodon, you can run HP Grass on a Leftovers set to lure it anyways.

Basically, bulky pivots are invaluable, and Lanturn's typing alone still allows it to function well in this metagame. You can't rely on Lanturn to beat the whole metagame in one slot, but it can check most of it and pivot into the appropriate Pokemon most of the time.