It then proceeds to KO itself that same turn from recoil, both from its attacks and from LO
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Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter kamikaze
- Start date
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It then proceeds to KO itself that same turn from recoil, both from its attacks and from LO
Matame
New Rules
I think people would take your post into account if you had proof of Emboar working, instead of just a bunch of theoretical calcs. I've never seen Emboar used at all in DOU and i doubt anyone else has so its hard to convince people a said mon works with literally zero proof to go off of.
Emboar: UR -> Tier 4
Emboar (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Reckless
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 72 HP / 184 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Protect
**Other options include Sucker Punch over Wild Charge for priority outside of Trick Room. A spread of 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe with a Jolly Nature and a Life Orb to outspeed positive natured Base 110s (Mega Diancie, Latios) in Tailwind.
I swear this thing has a niche. It hits incredibly hard being able to OHKO Aegislash, Amoonguss, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Gardevoir, Heatran, Mega Kangaskhan, Talonflame, and Thundurus (The entire Tier 1 minus Landorus-T which it still does 70% minimum). Obviously, it's not great checks to these as Amoonguss can move first and Spore under Trick Room and the rest of the list outspeeds it. However, this gives Emboar lots of Trick Room potential being able to beat the list beside Amoonguss and Talonflame.
72 HP & 252 Def Allows Emboar to take 1 Adamant Scarf Earthquake from Landorus-T, Adamant Double Edge from Mega Kangaskhan and Timid Psyshock from Mega Gardevoir while still hitting a LO Number
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 72 HP / 252 Def Emboar: 300-354 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 72 HP / 252 Def Emboar: 324-382 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 72 HP / 252 Def Emboar: 320-380 (84.4 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
184 Atk Investment + Adamant Nature + LO Allow Emboar to OHKO 9/10 of Tier 1 along with a lot of other viable mons (Such as Jirachi, Hydreigon, and Hoopa-U)
184+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 432-510 (133.3 - 157.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
184+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 603-712 (139.5 - 164.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
184+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Mega Charizard Y: 351-413 (97.7 - 115%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (Chip damage isn't hard)
184+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 56 HP / 180 Def Mega Gardevoir: 343-406 (117.8 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
184+ Atk Life Orb Emboar Superpower vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 486-577 (144.2 - 171.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
184+ Atk Life Orb Emboar Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 510-603 (145.2 - 171.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
184+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 406-478 (136.7 - 160.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
184+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 104 Def Thundurus: 359-422 (99.7 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (Chip Damage isn't hard)
184+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 92+ Def Jirachi: 510-603 (126.2 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
184+ Atk Life Orb Emboar Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 562-663 (172.9 - 204%) -- guaranteed OHKO
184+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 519-610 (172.4 - 202.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Why I think it has a niche over mons like Conkeldurr is it's strong Fire STAB and Reckless. For example, Conkeldurr can't OHKO Mega Charizard Y, Mega Gardevoir, Talonflame, or Thundurus (unless they are running Stone Edge which most aren't as the most common set according to Smogon is Drain Punch / Mach Punch / Knock Off / Ice Punch). Why you would use this over Talonflame for instance is it's strong hitting Fighting STAB which lets it take on Heatran and Mega Kangaskhan better. You would use this over Blaziken (which has the same typing and similar movepools) because Emboar works well in Trick Room while Blaziken would never be able to do that.
I definitely think Emboar deserves Tier 4 because why Emboar's role is almost never needed, it it works in some situations and can preform better than similar pokemon like Conkeldurr and Blaziken on specific teams.
Excuse me, I won with Emboar in DPL against Robert Alfons.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-69331
emboar is amazing
emboar is amazing
FloristtheBudew
I'm just tired
I'd like to nominate Jellicent from Tier 3 -> 2.
The Tier 2 description states that 'Pokemon which have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in the higher tiers. This also includes Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below.' Jellicent brings options to teams as a bulky water type that has key distinctions to it's counterparts. The typing itself gives it options where it can counter mega Kangaskhan and friends. It needs support in against Thundurus and Amoongus to some degree but that can be mitigated with an item choice (eg. safety goggles) and cursed body gives it fantastic options when playing defensively. It has a good match up with half of the tier 1 mons. The remainder can be either be controlled by the remaining 5 spots on the team or at worst have a 30% to not be able to hit Jellicent and it's partners effectively (assuming the ability cursed body is used and activates). Bringing scald, ice beam, will o wisp and recover as moves gives it both offensive and defensive options against a good majority of the metagame. What it brings is different options for what a common water type can do. It better checks mega Kangaskhan unlike Rotom-W and has a better match up with Amoongus than most water types. It's key positive team match ups are playing against Thalk and Diancie teams which are present commonly in the doubles ou format.
It does struggle against common Pokemon like Thundurus, Volcanion, Rotom-W, Hydreigion, Aegislash but has a better than positive match up against the majority of the metagame. It has a weaker physical defence stat but this can be mitigated with intimdiate users. Most of it's common threats threaten it specially so it's defense stat does not hinder much of it's defensive capabilities.
Tier 3 does not sound at all like what Jellicent brings to teams with the description stating 'Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently.'. Bringing reliable recovery and status infliction as part of it's forte it adds a lot towards team compositions and I believe it is under appreciated. I feel people associate Jellicent with trick room too much and overlook what it can bring to a more fast paced team.
The Tier 2 description states that 'Pokemon which have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in the higher tiers. This also includes Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below.' Jellicent brings options to teams as a bulky water type that has key distinctions to it's counterparts. The typing itself gives it options where it can counter mega Kangaskhan and friends. It needs support in against Thundurus and Amoongus to some degree but that can be mitigated with an item choice (eg. safety goggles) and cursed body gives it fantastic options when playing defensively. It has a good match up with half of the tier 1 mons. The remainder can be either be controlled by the remaining 5 spots on the team or at worst have a 30% to not be able to hit Jellicent and it's partners effectively (assuming the ability cursed body is used and activates). Bringing scald, ice beam, will o wisp and recover as moves gives it both offensive and defensive options against a good majority of the metagame. What it brings is different options for what a common water type can do. It better checks mega Kangaskhan unlike Rotom-W and has a better match up with Amoongus than most water types. It's key positive team match ups are playing against Thalk and Diancie teams which are present commonly in the doubles ou format.
It does struggle against common Pokemon like Thundurus, Volcanion, Rotom-W, Hydreigion, Aegislash but has a better than positive match up against the majority of the metagame. It has a weaker physical defence stat but this can be mitigated with intimdiate users. Most of it's common threats threaten it specially so it's defense stat does not hinder much of it's defensive capabilities.
Tier 3 does not sound at all like what Jellicent brings to teams with the description stating 'Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently.'. Bringing reliable recovery and status infliction as part of it's forte it adds a lot towards team compositions and I believe it is under appreciated. I feel people associate Jellicent with trick room too much and overlook what it can bring to a more fast paced team.
sent out Jun 21
still no response
The thing about Jellicent is you don't run it because it's good. You run it because you're already so hardpressed to find good TR setters, and Jellicent is the only thing that'll fit with what you've got so far. Considering how bad full TR is in the current meta, you're not going to need this thing ever really, because most of the time you're better off reshaping your team so it doesn't have a Jellicent. It's weak as piss, burn is only useful for like 2 threats in the game, and I'm not sure where "bettere Amoonguss matchup" comes from.
As for a nom
Rotomheat -> 3
The other day finally told me to use Rotom-Heat as a sun check. I looked at him and called him an old man. Move this thing to 3 please.
still no response
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-253658318
simply put I just really disagree with this.
The thing about Jellicent is you don't run it because it's good. You run it because you're already so hardpressed to find good TR setters, and Jellicent is the only thing that'll fit with what you've got so far. Considering how bad full TR is in the current meta, you're not going to need this thing ever really, because most of the time you're better off reshaping your team so it doesn't have a Jellicent. It's weak as piss, burn is only useful for like 2 threats in the game, and I'm not sure where "bettere Amoonguss matchup" comes from.
As for a nom
Rotomheat -> 3
The other day finally told me to use Rotom-Heat as a sun check. I looked at him and called him an old man. Move this thing to 3 please.
New Vrank shifts
Votes are in the order qsns, Dawg, Memoric, kamikaze, Blood Totem
Azumarill 2 -> 1.5
Gastrodon 4 -> 3
Keldeo 1.5 -> 2
Final Changes:
Azumarill moves from Tier 2 to 1.5
Gastrodon moves from Tier 4 to 3
Votes are in the order qsns, Dawg, Memoric, kamikaze, Blood Totem
Azumarill 2 -> 1.5
yea i totally agree with this. it's a big enough threat every game and tier 2 isn't really high enough to represent its viability.
Yes, for various reasons I've outlined in forum posts, I think Azumarill is certainly incredible enough to be 1.5.
Yes. It's a pretty potent threat that can just end games. Its bulk and typing are p nifty and if not in the position to get a BD it can be useful to take out random stuff too; generally speaking, its ability to be an offensive threat that incites fear just at team preview while also being able to be a defensive compliment makes it really good in my eyes. General good mon, it's definitely way more baller than the stuff at 2 rn and deserves 1.5.
Yes. So many people's hands go straight to the Belly Drum button but it doesnt always need it to win. It can be self sufficient without the support or clicking Belly Drum and it is quite a presence on team preview alone just like Memoric said.
no
Yes, for various reasons I've outlined in forum posts, I think Azumarill is certainly incredible enough to be 1.5.
Yes. It's a pretty potent threat that can just end games. Its bulk and typing are p nifty and if not in the position to get a BD it can be useful to take out random stuff too; generally speaking, its ability to be an offensive threat that incites fear just at team preview while also being able to be a defensive compliment makes it really good in my eyes. General good mon, it's definitely way more baller than the stuff at 2 rn and deserves 1.5.
Yes. So many people's hands go straight to the Belly Drum button but it doesnt always need it to win. It can be self sufficient without the support or clicking Belly Drum and it is quite a presence on team preview alone just like Memoric said.
no
Gastrodon 4 -> 3
glop glop. considering the popularity of fire-types, especially volcanion, along with genie spam, it's worth a raise.
Abstain
Yes. It's a tier 4 mon that actually has a significant niche of its own and at the same time has good match-ups across the board. Its good matchup against the genies and some fires such as Heatran and Volcanion is pretty nifty. At the very least, it's actually more usable than the other stuff in 4 lol
Abstain
yes
Abstain
Yes. It's a tier 4 mon that actually has a significant niche of its own and at the same time has good match-ups across the board. Its good matchup against the genies and some fires such as Heatran and Volcanion is pretty nifty. At the very least, it's actually more usable than the other stuff in 4 lol
Abstain
yes
Keldeo 1.5 -> 2
abstain
Yes, The rise of Gardevoir, azumarill, sylveon, jirachi, and "semi room" and just people not being stupid enough to let keldeo do its thing really makes it largely sub par.
Keldeo relies on its speed stat, and single target moves to function efficiently, and im just not sure the current meta allows for it to do that well enough to be 1.5
YES. This is something I've always wanted to happen. I really don't think that Keldeo (or any muskadeer) is good in this meta because, for a fast-and-squishy attacker, its Speed ain't enough imo. Being outrun by the 110s kinda puts a lot of pressure into it already, but then it also gets beat by Talonflame, Thundurus, and Amoonguss, which makes it really iffy to use for me. There's also the fact that that recently there's been a rise of MGard and SemiRoom, both things that don't bode well for it. It has a lot of firepower for sure, that Hydro hits way hard, but being beat by a good number of things makes it more like tier 2 material for me.
No. Keldeo is still strong even with its low usage. The ability to ohko kang, hydreigon, landorus-t, and heatran which are ever present now and nearly OHKO Hoopa is something I feel is underappreciated. Obviously it suffers when Trick Room is up which is why I am slightly warming up to the 1.5 placing but 2 is way too steep a drop
no
Yes, The rise of Gardevoir, azumarill, sylveon, jirachi, and "semi room" and just people not being stupid enough to let keldeo do its thing really makes it largely sub par.
Keldeo relies on its speed stat, and single target moves to function efficiently, and im just not sure the current meta allows for it to do that well enough to be 1.5
YES. This is something I've always wanted to happen. I really don't think that Keldeo (or any muskadeer) is good in this meta because, for a fast-and-squishy attacker, its Speed ain't enough imo. Being outrun by the 110s kinda puts a lot of pressure into it already, but then it also gets beat by Talonflame, Thundurus, and Amoonguss, which makes it really iffy to use for me. There's also the fact that that recently there's been a rise of MGard and SemiRoom, both things that don't bode well for it. It has a lot of firepower for sure, that Hydro hits way hard, but being beat by a good number of things makes it more like tier 2 material for me.
No. Keldeo is still strong even with its low usage. The ability to ohko kang, hydreigon, landorus-t, and heatran which are ever present now and nearly OHKO Hoopa is something I feel is underappreciated. Obviously it suffers when Trick Room is up which is why I am slightly warming up to the 1.5 placing but 2 is way too steep a drop
no
Final Changes:
Azumarill moves from Tier 2 to 1.5
Gastrodon moves from Tier 4 to 3
FloristtheBudew
I'm just tired
I'd like to talk a little about some of the points you mentioned. I never once mentioned trick room as the reason I wanted people to consider Jellicent. If you skipped over some of my words or I poorly worded my statement, then either of them could have let you lead to that conclusion. I'm arguing for a set that does not use trick room but rather ice beam over that slot. Burn is useful for many things but off the top of my head. Mega Kangaskhan, Landorus-T, Amoongus, Azumarill, Bisharp, and Hoopa-U could be used as examples. Burn has a valuable place in this metagame over wise why would Rotom-W consider will o wisp as part of it's standard moveset? Again you really centred your point on hard tr being a bit mediorce and that there are better setters than Jellicent which is true. I'm trying to show that Jellicent offers things that fit in the bulky water type role, that people might often overlook for their teams.
This is double battles and so the situation is not always this simple and this set requires a lot of specific tools. But with Jelicent holding the item safety goggles, having the ability cursed body. Holding will o wisp, recover and ice beam in it's moveset. Jellicent can actually beat Amoongus. With recover healing more than what giga drain can do offensively to Jellicent, and so if you just stall for giga drain to be disabled. Jellicent can then proceed to beat Amoongus.
Especially the safety goggles set is extremely strong. Amoongus can not redirect any scalds or wows. So the opponents partner can either be crippled by a burn / damage or allow Jellicent a free turn to switch into Amoongus and start applying defensive pressure.
The problem with jellicent is that even though it can wall some things quite handily, it's such a momentum drag that any good player will just take advantage of its lack of offensive pressure early game and will make sure to keep their main check around late game (i.e; thund) to stop any late game walling. Even against kang archetypes ,which is what I assume jelly does best against, if they have a rachi then Kang, azu etc. will just be able to set up and punch holes right in front of jelly. You mention an ice beam set but really this also adds to the lack of momentum jelly brings since a trick room could at least support the team with speed control. Not to mention that the additions of hoopa and volcanion really hampers jellies effectiveness which I think makes it undeserving for tier 2.
1.5 to 1
Jirachi is simply put, a truly dominant meta game force. The utility it provides is really invaluable to any team. This thing can do so many things, which include speed control with Icy Wind, deflecting moves with Follow Me, setting up Trick Room, and do not underestimate the power of Serene Grace Iron Head. And with Safety Goggles this thing beats one of the most annoying Pokemon to face in the meta game, Amoonguss. Yeah, it has a bad match vs Sun and all but that should not take away from the huge amount of support this thing brings. It is a terrifc fairy check and is often one of the main glue mons that stop some teams from being completely torn apart from Mega Diancie and Mega Gardevoir. Not to mention this thing can also run Thunder Wave to slow down threats like Mega Gengar. And helping hand support to boot this even further and the role compression this thing brings in one slot is incredible. It is one of the sole reasons why Azumarill can so easily set up Belly Drums as well, and then it proceeds to redirect attacks away from the huge threat on the field. One of the weaknesses is the weakness to Heat Wave, Earthquake, ghost moves, and dark moves, but the same thing can be said about many Tier 1 Pokemon. Amoonguss is dead weight vs Sun, for example, and Mega Charizard has a crippling weakness to Rock Slide from the ever so common Landorus T.
Overall, the role compression and massive support Jirachi brings to any team Trick Room or any team in general is so great that it deserves to be on the same rank as some other meta game forces like Landorus T and Zard Y. The invaluable support it brings can bring teams together and its individual support options far outweigh the cons to using this mon. Since it has such overbearing strengths over the weaknesses it comes with.
Crobat UR -> 4:
I have been using this recently as a support mon on my team, and I'm amazed at good this mon is. Being immune to fake out with Inner Focus is really nice, as it can also taunt the opposing TR setter or tailwind setter, or can throw up its own tailwind. This is the set I have been using.
Martha (Crobat) (F) @ Safety Goggles / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird / Acrobatics
- Tailwind
- Taunt
- Super Fang / U-Turn / Protect
Crobat has really nice bulk and a very good speed tier to do things with. The spread always lives things like Diancie's Diamond Storm, anything from Lando, and Mega-Kangaskhans Double Edge while outspeeding max positive nature Mega-Lucario. As a note, only use Acro with Sitrus, and vice versa. Super Fang puts a huge dent in all of its checks, as well as most bulky things like Tran, Kyube, and Rachi that don't like losing 50% of its HP. There are quite a few reasons to use this over other Tailwind users though. It has more bulk than Talon, and has taunt over Zapdos and Suicune so they don't lose to TR users. Plus it doesn't get spored by Amoonguss like the other three while being able to push through its checks unlike the other three. Thanks to Taunt and fang, it also isn't Kyube bait (at least not as much as the other 2 are.) The support that Crobat can provide to a team is great enough that it should be Tier 4.
grab your popcorn
Mega Diancie -> 1.5
Gotta say I love this thing but it's just not seeing the winrates and the usage levels that merit a tier 1 ranking. Sure it's a solid mon but momentum kill (unless you just balls to the wall but that's not consistent) combined with poor fullroom/semiroom matchups just make Diancie not the threat it once was. Also see: offensive Thundurus. Back in the old days you could turn one Diamond Storm into a Thundurus. Not anymore, or at least not without a substantial amount of worry
Volcanion -> 1
It's hella good what else is there to say
Beating every single steel without exception just makes this mon amazing. Just don't use it as your only sun check and you're pretty much set.
Bisharp -> 3
Ok so to preface this I know Kami's immediate vote will be no. But like c'mon the tier 3 description fits perfectly "Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently."
Like the way you think about Bisharp isn't "this is really good it's just normally outclassed" or "only fits on specific teams" it's "I'm going to have to deal with opposing heatran, talonflame, kangaskhan, etc and then maybe this thing will turn out halfway decent
just compared to all the other steels it's horrible
my tutee obii and I built a bunch of teams with it and while some of them turned out well it's a struggle to account for shit like Gardevoir and Kangaskhan and Heatran and all this other bullshit that steels like Heatran have way easier matchups against
Also not a TR check
Cress -> 4
selfexplanatory
nothing about this mon has changed
move it down already
Mega Aero -> 4
tier 4 description fits better... yeah it's a cool mon and has some things going for it over Diancie but it really "weighs down a team with its use"
like off the bat if you include Mega Aero you have to account for the fact that it's piss-weak and can't do jack shit
and full HO has been kill for several months
Genesect ->4
don't know why this is in 3 to begin with but being a steel that loses to every other steel is disgusting
choice scarf is cool but hurts your options so much. When people see genesect it's just like "well I know that mon's not protecting"
this thing's not good move it to 4
Suicune -> 3
thing's just not that good. Consistent talon/landot check but like.. it's so weak and garde bait.
Viriz -> 4
thing's garb
move to 4 it sucks
Kyube -> 2
doesn't hold up to the other dragons, doesn't check sun as well, garde is rly good rn this thing should've moved down last time I nommed it
Tentatively nomming Hoopa-U -> 1
because I feel this statement " good matchup vs a large portion of the metagame, are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team" is true, especially the part about being "quite powerful and offering great team support"
could see this either way seeing as how bad kang/talon/landot matchups are and rough time against fairies holds it back but it's incredibly versatile and has been shown to do very well in the right hands
having high Spdef is amazing in doubles because it's still very special-heavy, seeing as how Intimidate is very dominant in team compositions, so like you can tank heat waves/dracos, etc even with little/no bulk
Mega Diancie -> 1.5
Gotta say I love this thing but it's just not seeing the winrates and the usage levels that merit a tier 1 ranking. Sure it's a solid mon but momentum kill (unless you just balls to the wall but that's not consistent) combined with poor fullroom/semiroom matchups just make Diancie not the threat it once was. Also see: offensive Thundurus. Back in the old days you could turn one Diamond Storm into a Thundurus. Not anymore, or at least not without a substantial amount of worry
Volcanion -> 1
It's hella good what else is there to say
Beating every single steel without exception just makes this mon amazing. Just don't use it as your only sun check and you're pretty much set.
Bisharp -> 3
Ok so to preface this I know Kami's immediate vote will be no. But like c'mon the tier 3 description fits perfectly "Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently."
Like the way you think about Bisharp isn't "this is really good it's just normally outclassed" or "only fits on specific teams" it's "I'm going to have to deal with opposing heatran, talonflame, kangaskhan, etc and then maybe this thing will turn out halfway decent
just compared to all the other steels it's horrible
my tutee obii and I built a bunch of teams with it and while some of them turned out well it's a struggle to account for shit like Gardevoir and Kangaskhan and Heatran and all this other bullshit that steels like Heatran have way easier matchups against
Also not a TR check
Cress -> 4
selfexplanatory
nothing about this mon has changed
move it down already
Mega Aero -> 4
tier 4 description fits better... yeah it's a cool mon and has some things going for it over Diancie but it really "weighs down a team with its use"
like off the bat if you include Mega Aero you have to account for the fact that it's piss-weak and can't do jack shit
and full HO has been kill for several months
Genesect ->4
don't know why this is in 3 to begin with but being a steel that loses to every other steel is disgusting
choice scarf is cool but hurts your options so much. When people see genesect it's just like "well I know that mon's not protecting"
this thing's not good move it to 4
Suicune -> 3
thing's just not that good. Consistent talon/landot check but like.. it's so weak and garde bait.
Viriz -> 4
thing's garb
move to 4 it sucks
Kyube -> 2
doesn't hold up to the other dragons, doesn't check sun as well, garde is rly good rn this thing should've moved down last time I nommed it
Tentatively nomming Hoopa-U -> 1
because I feel this statement " good matchup vs a large portion of the metagame, are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team" is true, especially the part about being "quite powerful and offering great team support"
could see this either way seeing as how bad kang/talon/landot matchups are and rough time against fairies holds it back but it's incredibly versatile and has been shown to do very well in the right hands
having high Spdef is amazing in doubles because it's still very special-heavy, seeing as how Intimidate is very dominant in team compositions, so like you can tank heat waves/dracos, etc even with little/no bulk
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care to show any replays of this in action? I played around with it briefly like a year ago and it was pretty lackluster and I havent seen anyone use it since
Crobat UR -> 4:
I have been using this recently as a support mon on my team, and I'm amazed at good this mon is. Being immune to fake out with Inner Focus is really nice, as it can also taunt the opposing TR setter or tailwind setter, or can throw up its own tailwind. This is the set I have been using.
Martha (Crobat) (F) @ Safety Goggles / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird / Acrobatics
- Tailwind
- Taunt
- Super Fang / U-Turn / Protect
Crobat has really nice bulk and a very good speed tier to do things with. The spread always lives things like Diancie's Diamond Storm, anything from Lando, and Mega-Kangaskhans Double Edge while outspeeding max positive nature Mega-Lucario. As a note, only use Acro with Sitrus, and vice versa. Super Fang puts a huge dent in all of its checks, as well as most bulky things like Tran, Kyube, and Rachi that don't like losing 50% of its HP. There are quite a few reasons to use this over other Tailwind users though. It has more bulk than Talon, and has taunt over Zapdos and Suicune so they don't lose to TR users. Plus it doesn't get spored by Amoonguss like the other three while being able to push through its checks unlike the other three. Thanks to Taunt and fang, it also isn't Kyube bait (at least not as much as the other 2 are.) The support that Crobat can provide to a team is great enough that it should be Tier 4.
no, this is not worse than tier 2. it IS a tr check, it beats diancie and garde, still deters intimidate even if it doesn't beat lando, it is worse due to new arrival volcanion but it doesn't deserve to go to tier 3
this one pisses me off. do you not watch tour matches? cm cress can still win games entirely on its own. tier 4 mons can't fucking do that. cress is one of the bulkiest pokemon in the game, just because you don't like a mon doesn't mean it's not fucking good.
this is still the best or the second best tailwind setter in the game, snarl is fucking great, and it can sit in front of so many mons like they aren't even there. suicune is still really good.
scarf set is too good imo, i disagree with this but this one isn't stupid
this thing is not tier 1 good, jesus christ. it loses to almost everything in tier 1, and it isn't usable enough on nearly enough team structures to warrant a tier one placing. it needs speed control to even function, has crap defense, and the roles it can perform are limited.
tier four -> unranked
isnt the whole reason we switched to these number tiers bc people kept nomming badmons like crobat to D rank (no offense to crobat guy) tbh theres a large number of baddish niche mons like milotic and hariyama that can be fit onto a team without much work but honestly dont deserve to be ranked on a viability ranking. that being said i love teams with these badmons but i dont think its necessary to list every single pokemon that can conceivably be fit onto a doubles team.
isnt the whole reason we switched to these number tiers bc people kept nomming badmons like crobat to D rank (no offense to crobat guy) tbh theres a large number of baddish niche mons like milotic and hariyama that can be fit onto a team without much work but honestly dont deserve to be ranked on a viability ranking. that being said i love teams with these badmons but i dont think its necessary to list every single pokemon that can conceivably be fit onto a doubles team.
Memoric said it better than I could about Bisharp
[17:23] #Memoric: i can see Sharp being in 3
[17:23] #Memoric: like
[17:23] #Memoric: it's can only fit in specific places unlike other shit
[17:24] #Memoric: since it offers little defensively
cress is still bad
I do watch tour matches and it's been a thousand years since I last saw this thing used (Memoric SPL)
see my post way back when I nommed to 3 as to more detailed reasoning
Cune is like ok you get tailwind but tailwind is in itself a pretty bad form of speed control. It's much too passive to fit into current doubles meta and doesn't command respect. Sure you can snarl that subbed heatran or some shit like that but you're not doing anything with your tailwind turns after it's set
Kyube
congrats you disagree? please contribute to discussion because this is something that has been nommed before but failed so there's a dialogue to be had
Hoopa
It's quite good and got hella usage during SPL. Very versatile (I think I've counted like 6 diff sets used competitively) and definitely beats a lot of tier 1, sans Kang/Talon/Lando/Gardevoir it'll beat all the special attackers and these matchups can be patched up pretty fast
Tier 4's still pretty nifty, the mons there are still actually usable to some extent but for the most part have a bad standing in the meta such as Togekiss, Raikou, and Hariyama, and a place for stuff like them is still pretty nifty. Of course, some stuff there don't deserve to be actually ranked but this is all subjective. If we don't want "badmons" ranked, then let's just nom to unranked the badmons that we feel shouldn't be ranked at all and draw the line there.
Two noms:
Mega Abomsanow to 4
This thing hasn't been relevant since the lord knows. It hasn't received any relevant usage at all (according to KyleCole, last time it was used in something big was SPL 5) to keep it afloat to a ranking like this and for good reason: it's pretty iffy to use and gets beat by a lot of stuff in the metagame. For one, it has a hard time just getting past most relevant Steels like Jirachi, Heatran Aegislash, and it just gets owned too much by anything faster i.e a huge majority of the metagame because it's just too slow. Its low Speed basically necessitates Trick Room and it also leaves it prone to a lot of dangerous faster stuff such as Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Diance, Mega Charizard Y... it goes on and on. Its damage output is also kinda underwhelming since it only has 132 SpA and uses a spread-reduced move, and its defensive typing is also on the eh side since Rock, Fire and Steel weaks + not much resists other than Water and Elec.
tldr: Low speed that leaves it prone to a lot of stuff + TR reliance + inability to break past a lot of stuff + meh typing = lol
Gyarados to 2
Gyarados is actually fire as it can fulfill a lot of good sets, all of which can perform to varying degrees of success. I recall me and totem using Band Gyarados in SPL, and DD Gyarados has been gaining traction since then and is actually low-key hunna emoji. Bulky Gyara is also still a pain to face since Intimidate + Speed Control + ability to check a good set of mons is still pretty nifty to have. The real thing with Gyarados as it's kind of a different style of Lando-T in that, with Intimidate, it can perform in some supportive plays while still functioning as a handy offensive threat, but unlike Lando-T with its utility checking, Gyarados focuses more on punching holes in a way. Gyarados also has some unpredictability in that it can run either Band or DD really well + the threat of a supportive set with Thunder Wave and Taunt is always on people's heads. Its typing and bulk + pseudo-bulk in Intim is pretty nifty too, it lets Gyarados match up against some of stuff like Heatran, Zard, and Landog, etc. However, what's holding it back rly is a lot of neutral matchups in the metagame and its average Speed that lets it get beat down by some faster stuff depending on other factors like HP, but I'd say it's still fine in 2 as its applications are broad, numerous and has proven success.
Two noms:
Mega Abomsanow to 4
This thing hasn't been relevant since the lord knows. It hasn't received any relevant usage at all (according to KyleCole, last time it was used in something big was SPL 5) to keep it afloat to a ranking like this and for good reason: it's pretty iffy to use and gets beat by a lot of stuff in the metagame. For one, it has a hard time just getting past most relevant Steels like Jirachi, Heatran Aegislash, and it just gets owned too much by anything faster i.e a huge majority of the metagame because it's just too slow. Its low Speed basically necessitates Trick Room and it also leaves it prone to a lot of dangerous faster stuff such as Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Diance, Mega Charizard Y... it goes on and on. Its damage output is also kinda underwhelming since it only has 132 SpA and uses a spread-reduced move, and its defensive typing is also on the eh side since Rock, Fire and Steel weaks + not much resists other than Water and Elec.
tldr: Low speed that leaves it prone to a lot of stuff + TR reliance + inability to break past a lot of stuff + meh typing = lol
Gyarados to 2
Gyarados is actually fire as it can fulfill a lot of good sets, all of which can perform to varying degrees of success. I recall me and totem using Band Gyarados in SPL, and DD Gyarados has been gaining traction since then and is actually low-key hunna emoji. Bulky Gyara is also still a pain to face since Intimidate + Speed Control + ability to check a good set of mons is still pretty nifty to have. The real thing with Gyarados as it's kind of a different style of Lando-T in that, with Intimidate, it can perform in some supportive plays while still functioning as a handy offensive threat, but unlike Lando-T with its utility checking, Gyarados focuses more on punching holes in a way. Gyarados also has some unpredictability in that it can run either Band or DD really well + the threat of a supportive set with Thunder Wave and Taunt is always on people's heads. Its typing and bulk + pseudo-bulk in Intim is pretty nifty too, it lets Gyarados match up against some of stuff like Heatran, Zard, and Landog, etc. However, what's holding it back rly is a lot of neutral matchups in the metagame and its average Speed that lets it get beat down by some faster stuff depending on other factors like HP, but I'd say it's still fine in 2 as its applications are broad, numerous and has proven success.
in same vein
mega metagross 2->3
this is a steel that loses to other steels like aegis, and in particular becomes literally useless moment jirachi hits the field. Commonly used 5 billion fire types beat it. landog beats it. thundy t-waves and it's useless.
In the second tier of mega evolutions after the big 4, this is arguably on the bottommost rung. At least it can protect but this thing also takes up a mega slot. just not up to par with other megas nor other steels, making it awkward to put on a team. it does have good matchups vs. psychics and amoonguss and fairies. However, given fairies are oft paired with lando / fires, this puts meta is an awkward place anyways.
agreed on maero, gene, virizion, rachi, and rotom-h noms from check for sure, others seem a bit more debatable.
wondering if the rain pokemon should be tier 3 by definition. "Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently." seems to fit them fairly well. consider cress / p2 / jelli which are great go-to pokemon in almost all TR, yet stays in 3. using any swift swimmer commits your team and dedicates a large portion of your team to the rain aspect like those TR setters that are only good in certain archetypes, and still aren't omg amazing on said frameworks (because toed is kind of a meh Pokemon if not for the rain) especially ludi seems to see v. little play even out of all swift swimmers we got.
Hello, Charizard X to 3
I've been using it recently to see how I feel about it and it really sucks lol. It doesn't even really punish people thinking it's zard y cause the only move it resists that most people would be targeting zard y with is thunderbolt. It's weak to two of the most common spread moves, it doesn't have a cash typing like azu or intimidate like gyara to help it set up easier, it's not threatening at all unless it's at +1, which is pretty hard to do considering most teams have some intimidate user, and it's pretty much a useless mon once it gets paraed. Losing that nice fairy resist right now is kinda lame too. It's also forced to go for flare blitz vs the two only redirection user that people use (unless amoonguss is at like a low percent), which from my experience is usually how people try to kill this thing: redirect it's attack then revenge with its partner. I'm really hard pressed to use my mega slot on this when I can just use something else and have like azu/gyara as my late game cleaner.
I've been using it recently to see how I feel about it and it really sucks lol. It doesn't even really punish people thinking it's zard y cause the only move it resists that most people would be targeting zard y with is thunderbolt. It's weak to two of the most common spread moves, it doesn't have a cash typing like azu or intimidate like gyara to help it set up easier, it's not threatening at all unless it's at +1, which is pretty hard to do considering most teams have some intimidate user, and it's pretty much a useless mon once it gets paraed. Losing that nice fairy resist right now is kinda lame too. It's also forced to go for flare blitz vs the two only redirection user that people use (unless amoonguss is at like a low percent), which from my experience is usually how people try to kill this thing: redirect it's attack then revenge with its partner. I'm really hard pressed to use my mega slot on this when I can just use something else and have like azu/gyara as my late game cleaner.
Jirachi 1.5-->1
One thing for sure is that Jirachi does not use Spore, and that’s alright because some things are more appreciative than that. Jirachi access to Trick Room and Icy Wind is two ways of speed control (for both Mons at a time). Another thing to note is that Safety Goggles won’t make Jirachi useless as it does with Amoonguss. It truly “can fit on almost any team. You can’t really go wrong by using this Pokemon.”
Volcanion 1.5-->1
Volcanion has been seeing lot more usage for a reason, and it’s most likely due to its decent bulk and unique movepool. I’d say it’s a good 6th Slot Mon w/ various ways to operate it: Sub / LO / TR+SG. But, always use 48 SpD to survive a Modest Thunderbolt.
Ferrothorn 2-->1.5
This stupid thing is a pain. It is the only reason why you would ever preserve a Fire type (in a battle) for it. It is also perhaps the best stalling Mon in the game, giving the opposing team a defensive pressure and an offensive pressure (THALK hate me… wah).
Conkeldurr 3-->2
After Aegislash, I’d say Conkeldurr is the next best Wide Guard user. It gives a nice pressure to Landorus-T, Kang, and sometimes Heatran. Also, it performs admirably well against (semi-)TR teams.
Cresselia 3-->2
This stupid duck is basically the face of Trick Room teams (besides like Hoopa-U maybe). It insane bulk, levitate ability, potential to have mental herb / safety googles, make it a hard Mon to counter. Simply put, it is a far more reliable selection than Porygon2 and Jellicent, both of which are in the same Tier as it.
Zapdos 3-->2
Zapdos is used just as much as Suicune, and is just as efficient too. The only major difference would be the impact of their typing.
One thing for sure is that Jirachi does not use Spore, and that’s alright because some things are more appreciative than that. Jirachi access to Trick Room and Icy Wind is two ways of speed control (for both Mons at a time). Another thing to note is that Safety Goggles won’t make Jirachi useless as it does with Amoonguss. It truly “can fit on almost any team. You can’t really go wrong by using this Pokemon.”
Volcanion 1.5-->1
Volcanion has been seeing lot more usage for a reason, and it’s most likely due to its decent bulk and unique movepool. I’d say it’s a good 6th Slot Mon w/ various ways to operate it: Sub / LO / TR+SG. But, always use 48 SpD to survive a Modest Thunderbolt.
Ferrothorn 2-->1.5
This stupid thing is a pain. It is the only reason why you would ever preserve a Fire type (in a battle) for it. It is also perhaps the best stalling Mon in the game, giving the opposing team a defensive pressure and an offensive pressure (THALK hate me… wah).
Conkeldurr 3-->2
After Aegislash, I’d say Conkeldurr is the next best Wide Guard user. It gives a nice pressure to Landorus-T, Kang, and sometimes Heatran. Also, it performs admirably well against (semi-)TR teams.
Cresselia 3-->2
This stupid duck is basically the face of Trick Room teams (besides like Hoopa-U maybe). It insane bulk, levitate ability, potential to have mental herb / safety googles, make it a hard Mon to counter. Simply put, it is a far more reliable selection than Porygon2 and Jellicent, both of which are in the same Tier as it.
Zapdos 3-->2
Zapdos is used just as much as Suicune, and is just as efficient too. The only major difference would be the impact of their typing.
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I personally like it where it is, but I'd like to see more people weigh in on this, especially with two very different noms coming in the same round.
So I re-read check's noms and i hated them less this time but these two still bother me. I still have my dark-type obsession and Bisharp is still really good against many teams INCLUDING a lot of trick room builds.
Kyu-b is still really good though and even with the rise of Garde/Rachi would make it worse in theory, Kyu-b still shreds balance and tbh just run speed to snipe modest hydra. Kyub shreds teams that aren't well prepped for it, it's super hard to switch into more than once even for bulky steels/fires (also with volcanion usage sky-high kyu-b is a decent offensive check). I don't love scarf kyu-b but it has its merits and LO saw some effectiveness in DPL/Seasonals iirc. While it might be a little bit worse than a month ago I really don't think it deserves to drop because of its offensive presence/coverage/bulk and it's ability to just break through balance.
s/o to n10sit for helping me construct this monster of a post, and Corporal Levi for giving us a literally unattainable standard to reach for in VR posts
Hey guys, n10sitree here to save this thread from the plague of badmons clogging up the lower tiers! We were feeling frustrated by seeing mons that were kind of popular once staying just because they had a niche that no other mon had, even if they weren't particularly good at fulfilling said niche. Feel free to disagree with these noms but the general idea was to raise the standard of what is allowed onto the VR, so take these noms as a package deal, not as individual nominations.
Virizion 3 -> 4
Virizion is worse than both Serperior and Breloom at being an Offensive Grass. They both hit harder, and Breloom has access to Spore. Sure, Virizion has access to Stone Edge, but Breloom can run Rock Tomb and Serperior can run HP Rock or something if you really need it. This thing has a poor speed tier, so if you need a grass with bad Speed, just use Breloom. Also Volcanion has made every grass worse.
Mew 3 -> 4
To me, this is a case of a mon that's decent at doing lots of things but not good at any of them. Sure, its set is easily pliable to whatever the team may need, but it's that exact versatility that makes it difficult for me to ever feel like I need it on any team. The only thing it truly offers teams that no other mon can is some measure of unpredictability and Transform. Transform is kinda nice, but it's easily prevented and gimmicky enough that it alone does not warrant a place in the same tier as things like Cresselia.
Bronzong -> UR
Sweet shit, this thing is so bad. The new arrivals Hoopa and Volcanion make it even worse, as Bronzong is unable of doing anything in probably 75% of all matchups. Whoa, I can put it on my Trick Room team to beat Diancie! Just use Heatran or something, oh my god. You know what else gets Trick Room and beats Diancie? Jellicent. CM/Moonlight Cress. Use something else, please.
Reuniclus 3 -> 4
The rise of TR Hoopa-U has made it extremely difficult for Reuniclus to retain its niche. It's pretty strong and Overcoat is helpful in allowing it to choose another item aside from Safety Goggles, but Hoopa-U's ability to break Protect, hit Ghost-types, and tank a few special hits make it the better choice nine times out of ten.
Tyranitar 4 -> UR
Tyranitar is genuinely one of the worst Rock-types in Doubles. It's too slow to do anything, and if you use scarf, you just lose to Landorus and Kangaskhan. Sand isn't good because the Sand Rush pokemon aren't good. Rock Slide is a literal 3HKO on some Bulky Thundurus', And if you're intimidated, you're just useless. You're a Dark-type that doesn't even beat Ghost-types like Aegislash and you just get Burned by Gengar. Don't fall under the spell of the sand.
Gothitelle -> UR
I can understand the idea behind Gothitelle being viable, but this falls under the "raising the standards of the Viability Rankings". Just because a Pokemon has a niche or happens to be the correct pick on a few teams does not mean it should be considered viable, and Gothitelle is bad. If you really want a Trick Room setter with Shadow Tag, you're honestly better off with Trick Room Mega Gengar because at least that can do something offensively instead of just sitting there and hoping its partner handles everything.
Manaphy -> UR
This is one of my favorite Pokemon, so it pains me to do this, but this thing is not good enough for DOU. Things are too bulky, there are too many Water resists, and 100 speed is just not fast enough. Manaphy, to its credit, is better than most of the other things we're nomming to UR, but its just not viable in DOU. a +3 scald is really not doing enough without a myriad of support on Manaphy's side.
Rhydon 3 -> 4
Rhydon isn't bad, per se, but Rhyperior is more versatile and stronger, so I honestly can't think of a reason that this should be right beside its evolution. Bulk is nice and all but so is damage and the ability to hold an item. Not much else to say, pretty straightforward nom.
Raikou 4 -> UR
Raikou is literally so bad lol it gets Thunderbolt and Snarl and that's it, you have to run HP Ice / Steel just to give it AN ATTACK. Sure it has 115 Speed but it doesn't hit very hard and it has genuinely no usable coverage. No, Weather Ball does not count. TWave is okay and it checks Thundurus / Volcanion, but you can't be a mono attacker in Doubles OU unless your name is fucking Mega Kangaskhan.
Jellicent 3 -> 4
Now that semiroom is the more dominant of Trick Room-based teamstyles, the meta has very little place for a Trick Room setter as defensive as Jellicent unless it has setup capabilities (Cress) or walls 7/8 of the tier (P2). Fake Out immunities mean very little when you aren't immune to Scrappy Kang and Scrafty / Weavile still beat you. If Cresselia were Tier 2, this Pokemon could potentially stay in 3, but it is clearly the worst of the three viable defensive Trick Room setters.
Excadrill 4 -> UR
Wow this thing is bad! I've used it, on a genuine team, without Tyranitar, in recent weeks and its pretty bad! Everytime you use this on a non-sand team it should literally just be a Landorus-Therian. When you use it on a sand team, well, you're using Tyranitar, and we've already covered why that is a terrible mistake. Excadrill is a worse Landorus with Drill Run and Iron Head, which unfortunately doesn't make it viable.
Greninja 4 -> UR
I went back and forth on this one, but figured there's no harm in making the nomination. Greninja is outclassed by Keldeo on all teams except for Blizzspam, which then forces you to use Mega Abomasnow outside of Trick Room or semiroom Greninja, both of which are huge teambuilding constraints. Coverage and Protean do not make up for its frailty, often somewhat disappointing power, and in the end Greninja is best left off the VR so that new players don't think Mat Block is semi-viable.
Hariyama 4 -> UR
Okay so Hitmontop is slightly better than Hariyama, and it's not ridiculous to say Hitmontop should also be UR, but here's the reason Yama < Top in DOU: Intimidate is an amazing Ability, Knock Off is less important in DOU than in DUU, and Hitmontop has slightly more speed so it can compete with 70s. Again, I think Hitmontop is hot shit. But it's better than Hariyama.
Raichu -> UR
This Pokemon was kind of good for about 3 seconds longer than it took to get ranked, but I haven't seen anyone use it (EDIT: aside from Yoda) in a very long time. Feint and Lightning Rod are helpful-ish, though again this is a Pokemon that technically has a niche but should not be considered for the majority of teams. Most of the time, this is a worse Raikou, and considering that we're nominating that to drop too, this should definitely fall.
The Purge has concluded, thank you.
Hey guys, n10sitree here to save this thread from the plague of badmons clogging up the lower tiers! We were feeling frustrated by seeing mons that were kind of popular once staying just because they had a niche that no other mon had, even if they weren't particularly good at fulfilling said niche. Feel free to disagree with these noms but the general idea was to raise the standard of what is allowed onto the VR, so take these noms as a package deal, not as individual nominations.
Virizion is worse than both Serperior and Breloom at being an Offensive Grass. They both hit harder, and Breloom has access to Spore. Sure, Virizion has access to Stone Edge, but Breloom can run Rock Tomb and Serperior can run HP Rock or something if you really need it. This thing has a poor speed tier, so if you need a grass with bad Speed, just use Breloom. Also Volcanion has made every grass worse.
To me, this is a case of a mon that's decent at doing lots of things but not good at any of them. Sure, its set is easily pliable to whatever the team may need, but it's that exact versatility that makes it difficult for me to ever feel like I need it on any team. The only thing it truly offers teams that no other mon can is some measure of unpredictability and Transform. Transform is kinda nice, but it's easily prevented and gimmicky enough that it alone does not warrant a place in the same tier as things like Cresselia.
Sweet shit, this thing is so bad. The new arrivals Hoopa and Volcanion make it even worse, as Bronzong is unable of doing anything in probably 75% of all matchups. Whoa, I can put it on my Trick Room team to beat Diancie! Just use Heatran or something, oh my god. You know what else gets Trick Room and beats Diancie? Jellicent. CM/Moonlight Cress. Use something else, please.
The rise of TR Hoopa-U has made it extremely difficult for Reuniclus to retain its niche. It's pretty strong and Overcoat is helpful in allowing it to choose another item aside from Safety Goggles, but Hoopa-U's ability to break Protect, hit Ghost-types, and tank a few special hits make it the better choice nine times out of ten.
Tyranitar is genuinely one of the worst Rock-types in Doubles. It's too slow to do anything, and if you use scarf, you just lose to Landorus and Kangaskhan. Sand isn't good because the Sand Rush pokemon aren't good. Rock Slide is a literal 3HKO on some Bulky Thundurus', And if you're intimidated, you're just useless. You're a Dark-type that doesn't even beat Ghost-types like Aegislash and you just get Burned by Gengar. Don't fall under the spell of the sand.
I can understand the idea behind Gothitelle being viable, but this falls under the "raising the standards of the Viability Rankings". Just because a Pokemon has a niche or happens to be the correct pick on a few teams does not mean it should be considered viable, and Gothitelle is bad. If you really want a Trick Room setter with Shadow Tag, you're honestly better off with Trick Room Mega Gengar because at least that can do something offensively instead of just sitting there and hoping its partner handles everything.
This is one of my favorite Pokemon, so it pains me to do this, but this thing is not good enough for DOU. Things are too bulky, there are too many Water resists, and 100 speed is just not fast enough. Manaphy, to its credit, is better than most of the other things we're nomming to UR, but its just not viable in DOU. a +3 scald is really not doing enough without a myriad of support on Manaphy's side.
Rhydon isn't bad, per se, but Rhyperior is more versatile and stronger, so I honestly can't think of a reason that this should be right beside its evolution. Bulk is nice and all but so is damage and the ability to hold an item. Not much else to say, pretty straightforward nom.
Raikou is literally so bad lol it gets Thunderbolt and Snarl and that's it, you have to run HP Ice / Steel just to give it AN ATTACK. Sure it has 115 Speed but it doesn't hit very hard and it has genuinely no usable coverage. No, Weather Ball does not count. TWave is okay and it checks Thundurus / Volcanion, but you can't be a mono attacker in Doubles OU unless your name is fucking Mega Kangaskhan.
Now that semiroom is the more dominant of Trick Room-based teamstyles, the meta has very little place for a Trick Room setter as defensive as Jellicent unless it has setup capabilities (Cress) or walls 7/8 of the tier (P2). Fake Out immunities mean very little when you aren't immune to Scrappy Kang and Scrafty / Weavile still beat you. If Cresselia were Tier 2, this Pokemon could potentially stay in 3, but it is clearly the worst of the three viable defensive Trick Room setters.
Wow this thing is bad! I've used it, on a genuine team, without Tyranitar, in recent weeks and its pretty bad! Everytime you use this on a non-sand team it should literally just be a Landorus-Therian. When you use it on a sand team, well, you're using Tyranitar, and we've already covered why that is a terrible mistake. Excadrill is a worse Landorus with Drill Run and Iron Head, which unfortunately doesn't make it viable.
I went back and forth on this one, but figured there's no harm in making the nomination. Greninja is outclassed by Keldeo on all teams except for Blizzspam, which then forces you to use Mega Abomasnow outside of Trick Room or semiroom Greninja, both of which are huge teambuilding constraints. Coverage and Protean do not make up for its frailty, often somewhat disappointing power, and in the end Greninja is best left off the VR so that new players don't think Mat Block is semi-viable.
Okay so Hitmontop is slightly better than Hariyama, and it's not ridiculous to say Hitmontop should also be UR, but here's the reason Yama < Top in DOU: Intimidate is an amazing Ability, Knock Off is less important in DOU than in DUU, and Hitmontop has slightly more speed so it can compete with 70s. Again, I think Hitmontop is hot shit. But it's better than Hariyama.
This Pokemon was kind of good for about 3 seconds longer than it took to get ranked, but I haven't seen anyone use it (EDIT: aside from Yoda) in a very long time. Feint and Lightning Rod are helpful-ish, though again this is a Pokemon that technically has a niche but should not be considered for the majority of teams. Most of the time, this is a worse Raikou, and considering that we're nominating that to drop too, this should definitely fall.
The Purge has concluded, thank you.
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