CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[Deck Knight]

I'll cover a bit about each of the types brught up in Elite Lord Sigma's post.

Ice/Fighting: My gut reaction to this is "no, hell no." I don't know quite why I feel that strongly, but a few key points:
Ice is a horrible type for any kind of pivot. It's weak to SR and two kinds of priority, and only resists itself. Even if you mitigate some of its weaknesses with a better defensive Sub-type like Water, Steel, or Dragon there's no getting around just how bad Ice-type Pokemon of any stripe are at pivoting in and out. Ice/Fighting does neutralize the SR weakness, but it's still weak to 3 common and powerful types of priority in Brave Bird, Bullet Punch, and Mach Punch. The typing is also walled by Azumarill (save for Freeze-Dry), and although it isn't weak to Aqua Jet it's still another threat to watch out for.

I think the key problem for it compared to say Fairy/Fighting is that while they are threatened by similar things (Kitsunoh, Mollux, Mega Metagross & friends), Ice/Fighting has so many weaknesses it really doesn't draw in specific threats, and the kind of threats it draws (and the pokemon that might stay in on it) have more options against it. Scarf Heatran threatens both types, but you *know* it's going to select Flash Cannon on Fairy/Fighting whereas it can opt for either Flash Cannon or Fire Blast on Ice/Fighting CAP. Tomohawk can click either Hurricane/Air Slash or Aura Sphere on Ice/Fighting, it always picks flying STAB against Fairy/Fighting. Problems like this make it much more difficult to either Parting Shot (if CAP is also Scarfed) or switch to an appropriate counterswitch to eat the resisted hit.

Electric/Grass: This one is interesting and potentially pretty cool. Compared to other discussed types being total Talonflame or Zard bait, this one exchanges issues with ZardX after it Megas with scaring off Talonflame and ZardY. One particularly prominent weakness of it, though, is that it's weak to U-turn and therefore will attract a lot of Pokemon very willing to just throw U-turn out to both prevent it from switching in and negate the status drops of Parting Shot, at least for their own switchin. There are of course viable avenues that make throwing around U-turn (unless you're Scizor or Syclant and wiping out your target at the same time) extremely undesirable, and CAP's STAB on Electric makes a lot of the good U-turners hesistant to try and just outmaneuver it with that.

I think some decisions would need to be made down the line on how to mitigate the U-turn weakness, but Electric/Grass CAP would be perfectly viable against other things it doesn't address so well like Knock Off/Pursuit in the course of making those decisions.

 

[Arcade]

OK First post be nice please

I just want to say straight away I like the idea of a fairy type. Its a nice typing which really lets one play around with what you want to do. You can as easily go against the mold with a physically attacking Pokemon or you can play around with support and PS. However, I do not like the idea of Fairy/Fire, as I feel like whilst being very favorable to the Metagame, Fairy/Fire fails to help itself with its concept, as it either requires heavy team support to keep rocks out of the way, VERY reliable recovery which could end up a bit like Tomohawk, or it not running parting shot at all. The two former making this Pokemon lose viability quickly and the latter failing to achieve its concept.

I would also like to quickly cast our minds back to the other Gen 6 CAPs and you can see some interesting results. Volkraken is a Fire/Water, Plasmanta is a Poison/Electric, Naviathan is a Steel/Water and Crucibelle is a Poison/Rock. See any similarities? They all have a significant weakness to the ground typing, but they're also all very decent checks to the fairy type. There's no getting away that Fairy is a very VERY nice typing and is placed on a team with minimal risk and a high reward, but must we have our fifth fairy resist? I feel like problems like Amoonguss can be handled via other methods, like a Psychic or just team support, as if we chose to go Voltturn, team support is pivotal (haha) to success.

Electric-Grass is an interesting way to go. This lets it check common scald users and have a decent resistance to Volt Switchers, but not much else. On the other hand, it's dual STABs are only resisted by two types, grass and dragon, one of which is pretty uncommon. However, a good utilize of this is Rotom-Cut, which is famed for its ability to absorb scalds and get the hell out of dodge, and anything that blocks Volt Switches can get a face full of leaves. Therefore, whilst I find this typing very interesting, I don't think it'd cut it as a PS user, as it has better things to do.

Ice Fighting makes me go yes and no at the same time.
..Yo
We have seen good signs of fast offensive Pivots in the likes of Mega-Beedrill and (a better example) Syclant and both of which have been famed as pivots who come in and get out again, dealing a lot of damage in between. However the difference between these two bugs and CAP 22 is their chosen move. You will - 9 times out of ten - see a Beedrill use U-Turn, this is its main damage output. This isn't the same for our poor CAP 22, who has to deal with the fact that he wont be clicking PS 9 times out of ten because of the two very nice offensive STABs he has at his disposal. So, yet again, this is a very nice typing and one that I will support all the way, but I really don't think you'll get what the concept desires.

TLDR

Fairies are cool
Fire typing or ANOTHER fairy resist I'm too iffy on
Maybe include an SR resistance in there IDK
There are a load of CAPs with ground weaknesses and fairy resistances, I feel like we should break away from this.
Voltturn is what I based most of my arguments off of oops
Electric grass is cool on the surface but is really lackluster for PS
Ice Fighting will most likely not run PS for another, better move to make its role better due to a good offensive typing

 

[snake]

TL Post

For the most part, I'm pleased with how the typing discussion has gone since my previous post in this thread. Several contributors have made excellent, informative posts. That said, I and other members of the TLT feel that there are certain typings that have potential merit that could use some more discussion. Some in particular that I feel could use more attention are as follows.

Ice/Fighting: This typing seemed popular early in the thread, but it has hardly been mentioned over the past few days. I'm not sure if this is because people no longer support it or because Ice/Ground has stolen its thunder, but I feel this typing could use some more analysis and comparison.

Electric/Grass: Only one person has really been talking about this typing, but it's been argued well. I'd like to see other opinions on this typing's feasibility for CAP 22.

Other Fairy typings: Ground/Fairy, Fighting/Fairy, Fire/Fairy, and Steel/Fairy have all been argued extensively throughout the thread. There have been a few others mentioned, such as Electric/Fairy, that have been mostly ignored. I'd like some comparison between all of them.

I have also noted that the conversations in this thread have mainly turned into posters only defending their own preferred typing. I believe that this is not the most productive way to have a discussion, so I would like everybody from now until the conclusion of the discussion to focus on critiquing and analyzing typings proposed by others instead of just arguing one's own corner.

On that note, I originally was considering closing this thread on Sunday, but this weekend happens to be the 4th of July weekend. As such, I'm giving everybody until 12:00 AM on Tuesday (July 5th) to make their final arguments. Consider this post your 48-hour warning.

Alright I'd like to reply to this.

I am firmly against any Ice-, Fighting-, Electric-, or Ground-type suggestions because they firmly cause competition between other prominent VoltTurn Pokemon by sheer typing alone. Even if you don't believe CAP22 shouldn't be on VoltTurn teams, it would be very unfortunate if CAP22 and other pivots had competition for a teamslot. Most Volt Switch users are Electric-type, so we shouldn't be trying to overlap Electric-type options, and most Ground-type combinations will cause competition with Landorus-T and (to an extent) Colossoil.

Ice/Fighting and Ice/Ground already fail to differentiate themselves from Syclant. CAP22 is going to be fast, probably frail, and have access to a pivoting move. Syclant is fast, very frail (tbh I hope CAP22 is just a little bit sturdier than Syclant), and has access to U-turn. In addition, it shares one of Syclant's STAB moves and has access to both physical and special Fighting- and Ground-type coverage moves, Focus Blast, Superpower, Earth Power, and Earthquake.

Electric/Grass: I don't really understand the sentiment behind this typing. What does it do that Rotom-W doesn't already accomplish? Sure, CAP22 will be fast, but Electric/Grass has weaknesses to Fire, Poison, Bug, and Ice, which are good, but then you realize Electric's resistance to Flying is compensated by Grass's weakness to Flying, and Grass's resistance to Ground is compensated by Electric's weakness to Ground. It resists priority, which is kinda neat, but I just don't see what it can do better than what Rotom-W does better. Rotom-W gets rid of most Ground-types with Hydro Pump, can win vs. Colossoil if played correctly, and pivot with Volt Switch.

 

[SHSP]

Figured I'd put together a comparison of some of the fairy/x suggestions brought up so far:

Ground/Fairy offensively has the ability to hit a lot, ground being useful to hit poison types like mollux and crucibelle, as well as hitting steel and rock types like naviathan. However, Tomo can switch in on a ground move and cause trouble if it isn't dealt with by our fairy moves. It has a nice immunity to thunder wave as well, making it hard to be paralyzed which is huge for a fast pivot. Defensively, it has immunity to dragon and to electric, as well as useful resistances to types like bug, which lets it deal with volt turn well. It does fold to common priority in bullet punch, aqua jet, and the less common ice shard, but resists sucker punch and mach punch, and loses to mons like Cawmodore and Talonflame.

Fighting/Fairy is able to hit steel types as well as dark types, and deals very well with Bisharp, a mon brought up often. Tomo has the ability to come in on a resisted fighting move just as it did with ground and cause trouble. It 4x resists u-turn and sucker punch, as well as resisting mach punch and neutrality to all priority other then Talonflame's flying moves. It's weak to fairy and flying, common types thrown around in the CAP metagame, and has problems handling ghost types not named Mega-Sableye.

Fire/Fairy hits common mons like Cawmodore, Aurumoth and Syclant effectively, but can allow Cyclohm to get in easily as it resists fire, and Colossoil deals well with it due to a ground weakness. It also 4x resists u-turn and resists sucker punch, ice shard and mach punch, but is weak to aqua jet. It's weak to ground and water, common types in CAP's meta, and can't reliably handle mons like Mollux and Crucibelle.

Steel/Fairy deals with other fairy types as well as ice and rock types well, but allow for Tomo to come in as well as Cyclohm on steel attacks. It doesn't do well into Colossoil, being weak to ground, and also loses to fire types hard like Mollux and Volkraken. It 4x resists u-turn and resists almost all priority, being neutral only to aqua jet and mach punch.

Edit: thanks for catching my mistake Alfalfa

 

[Alfalfa]

Figured I'd put together a comparison of some of the fairy/x suggestions brought up so far:

Ground/Fairy offensively has the ability to hit a lot, ground being useful to hit poison types like mollux and crucibelle, as well as hitting steel and rock types like naviathan. However, Tomo can switch in on a ground move and cause trouble if it isn't dealt with by our fairy moves. It has a nice immunity to thunder wave as well, making it hard to be paralyzed which is huge for a fast pivot. Defensively, it has immunity to dragon and to electric, as well as useful resistances to types like bug, which lets it deal with volt turn well. It does fold to common priority in bullet punch, aqua jet, and the less common ice shard, but resists sucker punch and mach punch, and loses to mons like Cawmodore and Talonflame.

Fighting/Fairy is able to hit steel types as well as dark types, and deals very well with Bisharp, a mon brought up often. Tomo has the ability to come in on a resisted fighting move just as it did with ground and cause trouble. It 4x resists u-turn and sucker punch, as well as resisting mach punch and neutrality to all priority other then Talonflame's flying moves. It's weak to fairy and flying, common types thrown around in the CAP metagame, and has problems handling ghost types not named Mega-Sableye.

Fire/Fairy hits common mons like Cawmodore, Aurumoth and Syclant effectively, but can allow both Cyclohm and Colossoil to get in easily as they resist fire, and Colossoil deals well with it due to a ground weakness. It also 4x resists u-turn and resists sucker punch, ice shard and mach punch, but is weak to aqua jet. It's weak to ground and water, common types in CAP's meta, and can't reliably handle mons like Mollux and Crucibelle.

Steel/Fairy deals with other fairy types as well as ice and rock types well, but allow for Tomo to come in as well as Cyclohm on steel attacks. It doesn't do well into Colossoil, being weak to ground, and also loses to fire types hard like Mollux and Volkraken. It 4x resists u-turn and resists almost all priority, being neutral only to aqua jet and mach punch.

Colossoil does not resist Fire-type attacks, it can only hit Fire-types super effectively. It can also only consider coming in if it is Assault Vest Colossoil and Fire / Fairy is specially based, though STAB Fairy attack is still going to hurt a lot.

 

[Project_Mars]

Over the course of this thread, there have been 8 type combos involving fairies have been suggested, with 4 of those (Ground, Fighting, Fire, and Steel) having been discussed pretty heavily. Here's an overview on the remaining 4, in order of their introduction to the thread:

Dark/Fairy
Immunities: Dragon, Psychic
Resistances: 2x Ghost, 4x Dark
Weaknesses: 2x Poison, Steel, Fairy
Super Effective Vs: Psychic, Ghost, Fighting, Dark, Dragon
Other Notes: Has STAB on several neat attacking moves (Knock Off, Sucker Punch, and Pursuit) that would be interesting to add. This STAB combo doesn't threaten any thing that other Fairy/X Combos can't inherently threaten offensively on the S/A list of the viability thread, but is immune to both of the Lati's STABs.

Ghost/Fairy
Immunities: Normal, Fighting, Dragon
Resistances: 4x Bug
Weaknesses: 2x Ghost, Steel
Super Effective Vs: Psychic, Ghost, Fighting, Dark, Dragon
Other Notes: An arguably better defensively version of Dark/Fairy, since it has more attacks it can come in on. Ghost/Fairy would be very good at threatening Aurumoth, since it has a 4x bug resist and can threaten back with a STAB Ghost attack. Neutrality to Dark means Bisharp can threaten fairly easily, however.

Water/Fairy
Immunities: Dragon
Resistances: 2x Fire, Water, Ice, Fighting, Bug, Dark
Weaknesses: 2x Grass, Electric, Poison
Super Effective Vs: Ground, Rock, Fire, Fighting, Dark, Dragon
Other Notes: Water STAB is good vs Mega Diancie, Heatran, Lando-T, and Talon, while resisting both Keldeo's STABs and threatening back with a SE Fairy hit. Cyclohm gets a way to hit with a Super Effective Electric STAB, though.

Electric/Fairy
Immunities: Dragon
Resistances: 2x Electric, Flying, Fighting, Bug, Dark
Weaknesses: 2x Ground, Poison
Super Effective Vs: Water, Flying, Fighting, Dark, Dragon
Other Notes: Immunity to Paralysis is a huge plus for a Pokemon that wants to stay fast. Resists both of Cyclohm and Tomohawk's STABs while also threatening Cawmodor, Tornadus, Manaphy, and Skarmory. Draws in Lando-T easily, but Garchomp and Colossoil would have an awkward time coming in.

Out of these four, Electric/Fairy seems the best to add to the four "top" Fairy/X typings since it adds coverage against a pair of scary set-up 'mons and one of the most well known Walls in the game, while defensively not giving up much we would care about. I can't think of any other types that could combine with Fairy that we would want to have: Every other typing would cause steel-types to resist both STABs which would be a fairly annoying issue to deal with, all things considered.

 

[K.Rool]

Hello, everyone. I am Elite Lord Sigma, the Typing Leader for CAP 22. Before we begin, let's review the closing post of the Concept Assessment thread.



As such, the assessment leaves a wide berth for potential typings. However, this does not mean just any typing can be thrown out and taken seriously as a suggestion. Useful posts should keep in mind the parameters outlined above and explain how such a potential typing may be useful in making CAP 22 and its use of Parting Shot worthwhile. Basing arguments on knowledge of the CAP metagame is strongly encouraged here, as it would not be desirable for CAP 22 to have a typing that is not viable for a pivot in the CAP metagame. I look forward to the discussion proper.

EDIT: A few ground rules.

First off, do not post lists of typings. Each post should be limited to one or two typings at most.

Secondly, any post that does not follow the guidelines outlined here or that fails to give proper justification for a typing suggestion will be moderated and/or deleted. You have been warned.

I really want a double immunity mon that is a fps a lot of people want fairy if we go that direction id say fairy steel as poison is a fairly common typing in cap and there are threats of dragons and poison attack threatening ho but as an alternative and more realistic dark flying , making more sense with parting shot, one advantage of both is double immunities which benefit the fps a immunity two both ground and psychic can be help full in switching in safely and getting of a parting shot I understand a fps does not have to live forever but being able two switch in on two types safely can be extremely beneficial in usage

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Electric/Grass: I don't really understand the sentiment behind this typing. What does it do that Rotom-W doesn't already accomplish? Sure, CAP22 will be fast, but Electric/Grass has weaknesses to Fire, Poison, Bug, and Ice, which are good, but then you realize Electric's resistance to Flying is compensated by Grass's weakness to Flying, and Grass's resistance to Ground is compensated by Electric's weakness to Ground. It resists priority, which is kinda neat, but I just don't see what it can do better than what Rotom-W does better. Rotom-W gets rid of most Ground-types with Hydro Pump, can win vs. Colossoil if played correctly, and pivot with Volt Switch.

I think a lot of the differences between Electric/Grass and Rotom-W are being ignored here. Rotom-W has to be played very carefully to defeat Colossoil, and relies of multiple Hydro Pumps hitting. Even if a Rotom-W defeats Colossoil, it will usually be left with almost no health and is subject to being picked off rather easily. Rotom-W is typically played as a slowish pivot, which is quite different from the FPS route of CAP22. While Electric/Water and Electric/Grass hit many of the same things, Rotom-W typically lacks the offensive ability to generate many OHKOs. Furthermore, when aiming to hit opposing Water-types, Rotom-W usually has to use Volt Switch (since few sets are offensive and run Thunderbolt), which lacks the power to KO and requires it to switch out afterwards. Not to mention there are some threats like Kyurem-B that Rotom-W's Volt Switch does nothing against, whereas Parting Shot would be more effective. The way that Rotom-W and an Electric/Grass FPS would use their STABs are rather different. If we had decided in Concept Assessment that we were SPS, I would agree with your points, but we're FPS instead.

I'll also take this time to very briefly argue a few more typings discussed so far. I think Electric/Fighting has a lot of potential for the concept. Resistance to SR, immunity to paralysis, neutrality to priority, and resistance to pursuit are all great traits for a Pokemon aiming for FPS. And this typing accomplishes these things without blatantly trying to rig offensive matchups so far in its favor that it leaves room for Parting Shot to be explored.

Now, generally I'm not a fan of the Fairy-types. There are a few Fairy-typings that I wouldn't mind, so I don't just generally hate the typing for this concept. There is at least one combination that I think is ridiculously OP and sways our concept way too far into being an offensive threat outright rather than a parting shotter (I think a lot of Fairy typings do this, but this one does it to the extreme). Fairy/Ground is an offensive juggernaut. Think you're going to switch in your Poison or Steel-Type to take a Fairy move? Nope, can't do that with the threat of Ground STAB. What about your Charizard or Talonflame? If Rocks are up, they just auto take half. Fairy/Ground's offensive presence completely overshadows the concept to the point where I actually think it is anti-concept.

 

[Salient]

TL Post

Other Fairy typings: Ground/Fairy, Fighting/Fairy, Fire/Fairy, and Steel/Fairy have all been argued extensively throughout the thread. There have been a few others mentioned, such as Electric/Fairy, that have been mostly ignored. I'd like some comparison between all of them.

WIP

Hide

Coverage:
It's super effective against: Dark, Dragon, Electric, Fighting, Fire, Poison, Rock, Steel, but resisted by Pokemon with the combinations Fire|Poison|Steel/Flying.

In the CAP metagame (looking at top 20 Pokemon used), it is

• Super-effective against:
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Resisted by:
  

Defensively:
Ground/Fairy is an "okay" defensive typing in the metagame. It is weak to: Grass, Ice, Steel and Water. It resists: Dark, Fighting, Bug, Rock, and is immune to Electric and Dragon.
In the CAP metagame (looking at top 20 Pokemon used), it: (this includes movesets found on their analyses)

• Is weak to:
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• (I won't be doing resistances because everything tries to run 3 coverage moves for neutral coverage)

Overall, Ground/Fairy is a great offensive typing. It can force some Pokemon to switch out (such as Crucibelle) and use Parting Shot after the switch to gain momentum. Unfortunately, it will receive a lot of competition from Landorus-Therian, as it will most likely serve a similar role on teams.

Hide

Coverage:
It's super effective against: Bug, Dark, Dragon, Fighting, Grass, Ice, Steel but resisted
However, it's resisted by Fire-type Pokemon.

In the CAP metagame (looking at top 20 Pokemon used), it is

• Super-effective against:
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Resisted by:
  
  

Defensively:
Fire/Fairy isn't the best defensive typing, as it's weak to some common types such as Ground (Earthquake), Poison (Gunk Shot), and Rock (Stone Edge). It is also weak to Water. It resists: Bug (x4), Dark, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Ice, and is immune to Dragon.
In the CAP metagame (looking at top 20 Pokemon used), it: (this includes movesets found on their analyses)

• Is weak to:
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• (I won't be doing resistances because everything tries to run 3 coverage moves for neutral coverage)

Overall: WIP

 

[david0895]

Over the course of this thread, there have been 8 type combos involving fairies have been suggested, with 4 of those (Ground, Fighting, Fire, and Steel) having been discussed pretty heavily. Here's an overview on the remaining 4, in order of their introduction to the thread:

Dark/Fairy
Immunities: Dragon, Psychic
Resistances: 2x Ghost, 4x Dark
Weaknesses: 2x Poison, Steel, Fairy
Super Effective Vs: Psychic, Ghost, Fighting, Dark, Dragon
Other Notes: Has STAB on several neat attacking moves (Knock Off, Sucker Punch, and Pursuit) that would be interesting to add. This STAB combo doesn't threaten any thing that other Fairy/X Combos can't inherently threaten offensively on the S/A list of the viability thread, but is immune to both of the Lati's STABs.

Ghost/Fairy
Immunities: Normal, Fighting, Dragon
Resistances: 4x Bug
Weaknesses: 2x Ghost, Steel
Super Effective Vs: Psychic, Ghost, Fighting, Dark, Dragon
Other Notes: An arguably better defensively version of Dark/Fairy, since it has more attacks it can come in on. Ghost/Fairy would be very good at threatening Aurumoth, since it has a 4x bug resist and can threaten back with a STAB Ghost attack. Neutrality to Dark means Bisharp can threaten fairly easily, however.

Water/Fairy
Immunities: Dragon
Resistances: 2x Fire, Water, Ice, Fighting, Bug, Dark
Weaknesses: 2x Grass, Electric, Poison
Super Effective Vs: Ground, Rock, Fire, Fighting, Dark, Dragon
Other Notes: Water STAB is good vs Mega Diancie, Heatran, Lando-T, and Talon, while resisting both Keldeo's STABs and threatening back with a SE Fairy hit. Cyclohm gets a way to hit with a Super Effective Electric STAB, though.

Electric/Fairy
Immunities: Dragon
Resistances: 2x Electric, Flying, Fighting, Bug, Dark
Weaknesses: 2x Ground, Poison
Super Effective Vs: Water, Flying, Fighting, Dark, Dragon
Other Notes: Immunity to Paralysis is a huge plus for a Pokemon that wants to stay fast. Resists both of Cyclohm and Tomohawk's STABs while also threatening Cawmodor, Tornadus, Manaphy, and Skarmory. Draws in Lando-T easily, but Garchomp and Colossoil would have an awkward time coming in.

Out of these four, Electric/Fairy seems the best to add to the four "top" Fairy/X typings since it adds coverage against a pair of scary set-up 'mons and one of the most well known Walls in the game, while defensively not giving up much we would care about. I can't think of any other types that could combine with Fairy that we would want to have: Every other typing would cause steel-types to resist both STABs which would be a fairly annoying issue to deal with, all things considered.

Dark is a very good offensive type, but only if physical (Dark Pulse is not a great move)

Ghost probably is not the best typing for an offensive pokèmon (also this and Dark type will let CAP 22 weak against itself)

Water could be good but only with a priority move. Also you need to consider that coverage will be lost (STAB Water, STAB Fairy, Priority Water, Parting Shot)

Electric is not a type that i prefer because of its average power of the moves, but an immunity to paralysis would be good since a turn lost is not good


So I think that the best types could be Electric/Fairy, Dark/Fairy and (maybe) Electric/Dark.

 

[Animus Majulous]

So I’m going to use this post as a way to talk about a few types/type pairings, particularly the ones that our TL asked us to discuss, and to talk more specifically about the metagame itself. A lot of the posts have been very general, so I wanted to help clear up a lot of things that we have been discussing.

First, and to me this becomes relevant later in my post, the only two common rapid spinners in the entire CAP metagame are Colossoil and Tomohawk, and a fair amount of the Tomohawk sets do not run rapid spin at that. Occasionally, balanced teams will run Scizor or one of the Lati twins, but most of the time, hazard spinning comes from Colossoil.

Types that are weak to Stealth Rock such as Fire and Ice are usually less effective because of CAP's lack of variety of hazard removal. Within the metagame, there are a few exceptions to this rule. Weavile is a rather offensive Pokemon that is fast and with a strong Knock Off, and it's ability to fit on fast paced offensive teams somewhat remedies its issues (not to mention Weavile often can't take a hit before SR damage anyway). But I don’t know if CAP 22 will be able to come in like this, and the use of the move Parting Shot implies that CAP22 will be less offensive than Weavile. Talonflame and Charizard are similar in this regard (fast, offensive), but they also have access to roost to help mitigate lost HP from switching into SR. CAP22 is far from guaranteed to have recovery at this point, so we shouldn't count on that to save it during this stage. Taking 25% or more of your health (just talking about fire and ice) really sucks, and being a parting shot user, its not going to be able to infinitely come in without this. In fact, CAP 22 would be extremely ineffective coming in. Typings that include Fire or Ice but have a secondary type that makes CAP22 neutral to SR are more acceptable in this regard. However, something like Fairy/Fire would have serious problems due to the metagame's hazard game.

CAP 22 Cannot be weak to rocks, otherwise it would be unable to fulfill its role as a parting shot user regardless of whether it can effectively parting shot of a check. With that out of the way, I’m going to talk about the types.

Do Not Support Any Suggested Fairy Typings:

So first I’ll discuss Fairy in general. If CAP 22 is fairy, it will completely overlook the concept. Most people have talked about all the benefits of CAP 22 being fairy type (basically because it destroys much of the meta) what I have gotten from the posts is that while people are giving these reasons, they just want a “good” CAP Pokemon, or essentially one that can nuke the RPS like Doug said. As Deck Knight showed a list of what’s coming in I won’t, but the variations of Fairy bring in a lot of the same Pokemon, most of which are weak to fire or rocks (having to switch in an SR weak Pokemon to avoid the offensive pressure from a Fairy CAP22 is a heavy cost). Basically if CAP 22 is Fairy it will just be able to click a strong bp STAB move with little repercussions, especially with some of the secondary typings being suggested such as Fairy/Ground (which makes Steel and Poison inadequate switch ins as well; bye-bye Crucibelle check). That’s just not right, when the concept is Parting shot. The purpose of CAP 22 is to discover what Parting Shot means, and Fairy's offensive presence would turn CAP22 into something designed to beat the metagame instead.

Support Ice/Fighting and Ice/Ground:

These two are more interesting because they provide good offensive pressure, but again, I don’t think the purpose of this CAP is to annihilate Tomo, Colo, and Cyclohm, which is obviously what these two type pairings do. The Fighting vs Ground second typing is definitely in favor of Ground defensively, allowing CAP to switch into more threats. Like Deck Knight said earlier, Ice just brings too many weaknesses, but Ice/Ground would still be my second favorite typing.

But why do I like Ice more than fairy? Well, unlike fairy, the type seems to have balance to it. Yes, it hits a lot of the same pokemon that fairy does, but there are so many common types in the meta (fighting, fire, steel, etc) that just make ice a terribly weak defensive type. Which would be much better because CAP 22 could parting shot out and give momentum. Therefore, I Support Ice/Ground and Ice/Fighting, though I would prefer Ice/Ground as it would be a little bit better.

Support Electric/Grass:

As Heal already mentioned, Electric/Grass is a cool type and threatens obviously the plethora of water pokemon in the viability list as well as many others. Its typing also fares decently the RPS of the metagame, but doesn't outright try to break it. It won’t want to take an eq from colo or a hurricane from tomo but can if it has to, and won’t want to take a fire blast from cyclohm. It’s not as offensive of typing than fairy/X, but deals with much of the viability list. It definitely will not be able to ohko any of the three in RPS bar Tomohawk if it has enough special attack or Colossoil if it gets Power Whip and high attack. It doesn’t have too many resistances nor weaknesses, and seems to me to be the best type in being able to come in and reasonably click parting shot instead of a fairy move, or an ice move. It does what it needs to do (is offensively threatening enough, isn't bad defensively, resists priority, etc) and doesn't try to add "beating up the CAP metagame" to it's agenda.

Support Grass/Fairy

I know this is a late nomination, but the more I thought about it, the more unlikely it seemed to me that a non-Fairy type would win.

Therefore I propose Grass/Fairy for all the fellow CAP people here that want fairy types. While it is Fairy and has all the great offensive presence that a quick fairy has, it is weak to talonflame, takes neutral damage from rocks, loses to steel and fire types, and grass itself is not a good defensive type in general. However, it trades these weaknesses for the ability to beat a large majority of the water and ground pokemon in the metagame. This typing can force pokemon out because of its super effective stab, but it is not over-powered like some of the other fairy typing are. There will be many, many opportunities to use parting shot as there are many pokemon that threaten this typing. But, there are a few notable pokemon (RPS) that take SE stab damage. This typing is much more balanced than the other fairy typings, so while I do not support any of the other typings, I do support this one, and hope than in the day’s time left you can think about what Grass/Fairy is and give it a chance.

During my time writing this post, I realized that CAP does not need answers for Colo, Tomo, and Cyclohm, they already exist. Its just bringing these answers in safely that needs to be done. CAP 22 has to be able to threaten enough pokes to make it relevant (preferably ones not threatened already by voltturn), and bring in your appropriate set up sweeper or answer.

 

[Empress]

(Running low on time; bear with me please.)

I'd actually like to throw some support behind an Ice typing on this Pokemon. Back when Sparky closed the concept assessment thread, he stated that CAP 22 should have some way of forcing out the opposition. An Ice typing would do just that offensively, as many of the biggest threats to VoltTurn teams (and pivots in general) include Landorus-T, Garchomp, and even shit like Cyclohm and maybe Gliscor. A pivot that could take on these threats would definitely be a boon to VoltTurn squads and offensive teams alike. Also, snake_rattler, I definitely know that we can make CAP 22 differ positively from Syclant if we're to give it an Ice typing, but telling you how would constitute poll jumping, so I'll hold off on that. (Opinions on Fighting vs Ground to come later.)

Also, I'm not really a fan of a Fairy typing for this CAP, as it seems to just be generically good. While it's true that many top threats in the metagame are vulnerable to Fairy-types, it doesn't really address the threats that a Parting Shot user should address, instead just blanket-destroying multiple Pokemon. When the focus is on breaking a large majority of the meta instead of more specific things, the typing is anti-concept. Yes, Ice beats Tomohawk and Colossoil as well, but it doesn't offer a defensive backbone against them, and it aims to hit more specific targets than Fairy.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

So I’m going to use this post as a way to talk about a few types/type pairings, particularly the ones that our TL asked us to discuss, and to talk more specifically about the metagame itself. A lot of the posts have been very general, so I wanted to help clear up a lot of things that we have been discussing.

First, and to me this becomes relevant later in my post, the only two common rapid spinners in the entire CAP metagame are Colossoil and Tomohawk, and a fair amount of the Tomohawk sets do not run rapid spin at that. Occasionally, balanced teams will run Scizor or one of the Lati twins, but most of the time, hazard spinning comes from Colossoil.

Types that are weak to Stealth Rock such as Fire and Ice are usually less effective because of CAP's lack of variety of hazard removal. Within the metagame, there are a few exceptions to this rule. Weavile is a rather offensive Pokemon that is fast and with a strong Knock Off, and it's ability to fit on fast paced offensive teams somewhat remedies its issues (not to mention Weavile often can't take a hit before SR damage anyway). But I don’t know if CAP 22 will be able to come in like this, and the use of the move Parting Shot implies that CAP22 will be less offensive than Weavile. Talonflame and Charizard are similar in this regard (fast, offensive), but they also have access to roost to help mitigate lost HP from switching into SR. CAP22 is far from guaranteed to have recovery at this point, so we shouldn't count on that to save it during this stage. Taking 25% or more of your health (just talking about fire and ice) really sucks, and being a parting shot user, its not going to be able to infinitely come in without this. In fact, CAP 22 would be extremely ineffective coming in. Typings that include Fire or Ice but have a secondary type that makes CAP22 neutral to SR are more acceptable in this regard. However, something like Fairy/Fire would have serious problems due to the metagame's hazard game.

CAP 22 Cannot be weak to rocks, otherwise it would be unable to fulfill its role as a parting shot user regardless of whether it can effectively parting shot of a check. With that out of the way, I’m going to talk about the types.

Do Not Support Any Suggested Fairy Typings:

So first I’ll discuss Fairy in general. If CAP 22 is fairy, it will completely overlook the concept. Most people have talked about all the benefits of CAP 22 being fairy type (basically because it destroys much of the meta) what I have gotten from the posts is that while people are giving these reasons, they just want a “good” CAP Pokemon, or essentially one that can nuke the RPS like Doug said. As Deck Knight showed a list of what’s coming in I won’t, but the variations of Fairy bring in a lot of the same Pokemon, most of which are weak to fire or rocks (having to switch in an SR weak Pokemon to avoid the offensive pressure from a Fairy CAP22 is a heavy cost). Basically if CAP 22 is Fairy it will just be able to click a strong bp STAB move with little repercussions, especially with some of the secondary typings being suggested such as Fairy/Ground (which makes Steel and Poison inadequate switch ins as well; bye-bye Crucibelle check). That’s just not right, when the concept is Parting shot. The purpose of CAP 22 is to discover what Parting Shot means, and Fairy's offensive presence would turn CAP22 into something designed to beat the metagame instead.

Ice/Fighting and Ice/Ground:

These two are more interesting because they provide good offensive pressure, but again, I don’t think the purpose of this CAP is to annihilate Tomo, Colo, and Cyclohm, which is obviously what these two type pairings do. The Fighting vs Ground second typing is definitely in favor of Ground defensively, allowing CAP to switch into more threats. Like Deck Knight said earlier, Ice just brings too many weaknesses, but Ice/Ground would still be my second favorite typing.

But why do I like Ice more than fairy? Well, unlike fairy, the type seems to have balance to it. Yes, it hits a lot of the same pokemon that fairy does, but there are so many common types in the meta (fighting, fire, steel, etc) that just make ice a terribly weak defensive type. Which would be much better because CAP 22 could parting shot out and give momentum. Therefore, I Support Ice/Ground and Ice/Fighting, though I would prefer Ice/Ground as it would be a little bit better.

Support Electric/Grass:

As Heal already mentioned, Electric/Grass is a cool type and threatens obviously the plethora of water pokemon in the viability list as well as many others. Its typing also fares decently the RPS of the metagame, but doesn't outright try to break it. It won’t want to take an eq from colo or a hurricane from tomo but can if it has to, and won’t want to take a fire blast from cyclohm. It’s not as offensive of typing than fairy/X, but deals with much of the viability list. It definitely will not be able to ohko any of the three in RPS bar Tomohawk if it has enough special attack or Colossoil if it gets Power Whip and high attack. It doesn’t have too many resistances nor weaknesses, and seems to me to be the best type in being able to come in and reasonably click parting shot instead of a fairy move, or an ice move. It does what it needs to do (is offensively threatening enough, isn't bad defensively, resists priority, etc) and doesn't try to add "beating up the CAP metagame" to it's agenda.

Support Grass/Fairy

I know this is a late nomination, but the more I thought about it, the more unlikely it seemed to me that a non-Fairy type would win.

Therefore I propose Grass/Fairy for all the fellow CAP people here that want fairy types. While it is Fairy and has all the great offensive presence that a quick fairy has, it is weak to talonflame, takes neutral damage from rocks, loses to steel and fire types, and grass itself is not a good defensive type in general. However, it trades these weaknesses for the ability to beat a large majority of the water and ground pokemon in the metagame. This typing can force pokemon out because of its super effective stab, but it is not over-powered like some of the other fairy typing are. There will be many, many opportunities to use parting shot as there are many pokemon that threaten this typing. But, there are a few notable pokemon (RPS) that take SE stab damage. This typing is much more balanced than the other fairy typings, so while I do not support any of the other typings, I do support this one, and hope than in the day’s time left you can think about what Grass/Fairy is and give it a chance.

During my time writing this post, I realized that CAP does not need answers for Colo, Tomo, and Cyclohm, they already exist. Its just bringing these answers in safely that needs to be done. CAP 22 has to be able to threaten enough pokes to make it relevant (preferably ones not threatened already by voltturn), and bring in your appropriate set up sweeper or answer.

A few assorted thoughts inspired by this post:

The key thing that I agree with here is that we should most definitely not be weak to SR. It will be a deadly flaw that will heavily discourage as much usage. Additionally, we should probably avoid a weakness to Electric and Bug as common pivots could easily wear it out such as Rotom-W. Despite Fairy being enticing, I agree we should avoid it due reasons listed by many.

I feel that Fairy/Grass may not be a favorable option due to many weaknesses. I see the advantages of it however. The much-discussed Grass/Electric typing is vulnerable to both U-Turn, Fire type, and Ice type. All of these are extremely common as moves in the CAP metagame, carried by the likes of Scizor, Cyclohm, and Krillowatt. Therefore I do not believe it will perform its role ideally due to these specific flaws.

Perhaps Dragon should be considered more as a typing; it would allow it to be unique as a CAP, as well as fit the bill for the concept fairly easily due to several useful resistances as a pivot. One that might be useful is Dragon/Fighting because of the resistance to Stealth Rock, U-Turn, and Volt Switch. Its also a neat unique typing that has weaknesses to common Pokemon like Talonflame and Clefavle, which prevents it from being overly strong defensively.

 

[Alfalfa]

A few assorted thoughts inspired by this post:

The key thing that I agree with here is that we should most definitely not be weak to SR. It will be a deadly flaw that will heavily discourage as much usage. Additionally, we should probably avoid a weakness to Electric and Bug as common pivots could easily wear it out such as Rotom-W. Despite Fairy being enticing, I agree we should avoid it due reasons listed by many.

I feel that Fairy/Grass may not be a favorable option due to many weaknesses. I see the advantages of it however. The much-discussed Grass/Electric typing is vulnerable to both U-Turn, Fire type, and Ice type. All of these are extremely common as moves in the CAP metagame, carried by the likes of Scizor, Cyclohm, and Krillowatt. Therefore I do not believe it will perform its role ideally due to these specific flaws.

Perhaps Dragon should be considered more as a typing; it would allow it to be unique as a CAP, as well as fit the bill for the concept fairly easily due to several useful resistances as a pivot. One that might be useful is Dragon/Fighting because of the resistance to Stealth Rock, U-Turn, and Volt Switch. Its also a neat unique typing that has weaknesses to common Pokemon like Talonflame and Clefavle, which prevents it from being overly strong defensively.

Except Dragon / Fighting makes it highly vulnerable to both Tomohawk and Clefable, both of which are two among the three most centralizing threats in the metagame. Our CAP can afford to have a disadvantageous match-up against Clefable, but in addition to a bad match-up against Tomohawk, as well as Kitsunoh, Syclant, and every important Fairy-type in the tier? That is NOT an ideal typing for our CAP to possess.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

The much-discussed Grass/Electric typing is vulnerable to both U-Turn, Fire type, and Ice type. All of these are extremely common as moves in the CAP metagame, carried by the likes of Scizor, Cyclohm, and Krillowatt. Therefore I do not believe it will perform its role ideally due to these specific flaws.

It's not like a Grass/Electric CAP22 would ever get hit by Scizor's U-turn due to the speed differences. Switching out with Parting Shot only for Scizor to U-turn is very likely, but this problem is faced by all of the typings here, but at least Parting Shot will lower the damage of U-turn in the process. I'd also argue that the Fairy types here struggle more with Scizor because of their weakness to Bullet Punch. We'd be faster than Cyclohm, and there's really nothing about the concept that makes defeating Cyclohm 1v1 required. Lastly, we may be faster than Krilowatt and threaten it with Grass STAB. Even if we are slower, taking a non-STAB Ice Beam isn't that big of a deal. An ice-type weakness might sound discouraging, but the only Ice-types CAP22 would have to consider worrying about are Syclant, Weavile, and Kyurem-B (and if faster than Kyurem-B, Parting Shot would make it less threatening for CAP's teammates).

I agree with Alfalfa that Dragon/Fighting is a rather poor defensive typing for the current metagame. It's not that bad offensively, but many of the bulky Fairy-types that would want to switch in don't particularly mind the drops from Parting Shot, so I'm not sure it would be able to utilize the move to good effect.

 

[Krazyguy75]

I really disagree with 90% of the reasoning here. This is not a CAP whose concept was "Beat the metagame in 2 moves"! This is a pokemon designed to use PARTING SHOT. If you ignore that and focus on the "beat or tank the metagame" you ignore the entire concept. If it is powerful and only countered by a tiny amount of pokemon, then why would you run parting shot! You want a pokemon that has calculated weaknesses and strengths without perfect coverage, so that it has a reason to switch out.

I honestly think that once we decided on an offensive pokemon we set this concept on a difficult path. Making an offensive pokemon use what amounts to a support move seems counterintuitive. If you just use PS as a switching move with inhibition, it'd be better to run Volt Switch.

 

[Trox]

I want to focus a bit more on Electric/Fairy.
Defensively, it has 1 immunity (dragon) and 5 resistances (electric, flying, fighting, bug, dark), while only having 2 weaknesses (ground and poison).
Offensively, it's STABs hit 5 types for super effective damage (water, flying, fighting, dark, dragon), while being resisted by no single typing.

Pros:
- not weak to any kind of priority, it even resists several.
- immune to paralysis due to the Electric type, which helps using FPS.
- Fairy type STAB helps us keeping Bisharp at check, as we can hit it neutrally.

Cons:
- the typing get hit by every kind of hazard, which is a bit suboptimal for pivoting.
- Some quite common Pokemon like Cawmodore (with Volt Absorb), Excadrill or Ferrothorn resist both STABs, the first two can easily threathen us with powerful neutral or super effective hits, respectively.

Overall, Fairy is generally a good type in CAP which can be seen at the Viability Rankings, where Clefable is the only S-Rank in CAP.
Electric is a good addition to Fairy, since it is a good offensive typing, hitting all types that resist Fairy for neutral damage while also bringing that immunity to paralysis, which is simply amazing for a Pokemon that is supposed to be a fast pivot.

 

[Ignus]

It's not like a Grass/Electric CAP22 would ever get hit by Scizor's U-turn due to the speed differences. Switching out with Parting Shot only for Scizor to U-turn is very likely, but this problem is faced by all of the typings here, but at least Parting Shot will lower the damage of U-turn in the process. I'd also argue that the Fairy types here struggle more with Scizor because of their weakness to Bullet Punch. We'd be faster than Cyclohm, and there's really nothing about the concept that makes defeating Cyclohm 1v1 required. Lastly, we may be faster than Krilowatt and threaten it with Grass STAB. Even if we are slower, taking a non-STAB Ice Beam isn't that big of a deal. An ice-type weakness might sound discouraging, but the only Ice-types CAP22 would have to consider worrying about are Syclant, Weavile, and Kyurem-B (and if faster than Kyurem-B, Parting Shot would make it less threatening for CAP's teammates).

Personally, while I agree that Scizor won't be hitting CAP with U-turn, I think the bigger problem is that Grass Electric practically hands momentum to a lot of really common, stealth rock resistant, consistent recovery pokemon. The problem with it naturally losing to Scizor is less that it will take a hit from U-turn and more that Scizor forces us to switch into a U-Turn - which gives our opponent a switch advantage and immediately removes the damage reduction past that turn. For a pokemon that's supposed to win that style of trades, we could be choosing what stops CAP22 better.

On top of this, Electric/Grass generally scares off things like Volkraken/Volcanion, Rotom-W, and Azumarill*, all of which we'd actually prefer to be switching in against CAP due to their relative weakness to residual damage, unreliable or non-existent recovery, and dislike of lowered offenses. These are the exact kind of targets we should be bothering with parting shot.

Threatening things like Talonflame is also something I'm not really for, as the firebird struggles with short-term trades due to its reliance on recoil heavy moves and super-duper weakness to SR - and while it does pack a punch with brave bird - I think baiting it forward and using an early parting shot is a more significant gain than doing the same to something like Scizor, especially when rocks are up.

Electric Grass also utterly lacks a way to properly deal with Cawmodore - and while 'just parting shot out' is kind of our mantra, it doesn't exactly work that well against CAP's very own super sweeper. Add to that giving Aurumoth free setup opportunities, lacking a way to properly deal with pursuit users, not having a way to properly dent volt-switch pivots (which often run fire coverage - looking at you Zapdos, Mega-Manec, Magnezone) and being unable to punish grass neutral ground type pivots (Garchomp, Lando-T etc), I think the drawbacks of the type way overpower the positives. That's not to say there isn't any - It's just that it loses to the wrong types of stuff, and the stuff that it beats is really just not as important.

*Azumarill less so because Aqua Jet is a pain and the Belly Drum set gives very few shits about PS - but it's still worth noting that it doesn't have recovery, doesn't deal with status that well, and has a variety of checks in the metagame including Mollux and Mega-Venu and Ferro and a bunch of other shit I can't think of off the top of my head that really like the extra 10-20% less damage

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ice/Fighting kind of runs into the opposite problem Grass/Electric has - it has offensive coverage that draws all sorts of good stuff, but absolutely lacks any sort of switch-in opportunity. 6 weaknesses, problems with the majority of priority users, and not a single immunity or quad resist forces it to only come in off of the death of a teammate - not something particularly advisable for a Pokemon that's supposed to switch out right after it comes in. I don't think I can elaborate on that further outside of just pulling the full list of things Ice/Fighting can switch into without potentially taking a super effect hit:

• Chansey (Except thunder wave)
• Gliscor (Except toxic)
• Hippodown (Except toxic)
• Quagsire (Except toxic)
• Rotom-W (Except trick, W-o-W)
• Sableye (Except W-o-W)
• Fidgit (Doesn't hit anything anyway, just has hands for placing rocks)
• Krilowatt (apparently doesn't do anything)
• Malaconda (Except Toxic, Seeds, etc)

This list was made using the OU metagame + all CAP pokemon. Things like HP fire on mega-venu were included because it's already common, but things like HP fire on Bisharp were not because that's stupid yo

So... nine things. Out of those nine, seven of them often cripple it with status. Assuming we don't include being statused as a 'safe' switch in, two of the 75ish relevant threats in the CAP metagame exist as true opportunities for it to come in without being sad. Of those two, one pokemon is actually hit super effectively by Ice/Fighting STAB.

Is the point made yet, or am I beating a dead horse?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, heres some Fire/Fairy and Generic/Fairy defense. Totally not because I feel obligated to as one of the main people who argued for it

First, let's talk about the 'fairy is generically good' argument I keep seeing. Fairy does a bunch of super useful stuff, but the point behind the fairy following is less that just it hits all the good 'mons hard and more that it helps with u-turn, pursuit users, gives some easy switch-ins even if CAP22 isn't as bulky as possible, and scares away some of the boosters who sit further up on the scale of not caring about parting shot.

On top of that, I want to make clear exactly how powerful fairy moves are in a situation where it isn't being used by a Hyper Voice Gardevoir. There are basically 3 viable fairy offensive moves, which are capped at 90 base power. There is no fairy hydro pump, without something like pixilate. It's a type you use because it hits stuff super effectively, not just because it does a butt-load of damage. The best secondary effect these moves have is lowering something's special attack / attack. Even defensive walls that only take a hit neutrally handle it pretty easily, assuming we aren't talking about monsters like Azumarill with its equivalent base 150 attack. Fairy moves just don't hit that hard - they just feel like they do because everything has pixilate or already hits like a truck.

Fire-Fairy, especially, is so easily walled it's hilarious. You just switch in a Fire type. That's it. To be fair, the whole point of Fire Fairy is to draw out the SR weak fire types in the first place, but it's still true. Just being a fairy type doesn't make something a wallbreaker, so we shouldn't treat it like being a fairy type will overshadow having parting shot, especially when we haven't chosen an ability, movepool, or stats.

That said - being weak to bullet punch, I think, is something reasonably wrong with the generic/fairy typings and definitely should be treated as a bad thing. No arguments there.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's all I have for now. Will continue rant as necessary

 

[P3DS]

I really disagree with 90% of the reasoning here. This is not a CAP whose concept was "Beat the metagame in 2 moves"! This is a pokemon designed to use PARTING SHOT. If you ignore that and focus on the "beat or tank the metagame" you ignore the entire concept. If it is powerful and only countered by a tiny amount of pokemon, then why would you run parting shot! You want a pokemon that has calculated weaknesses and strengths without perfect coverage, so that it has a reason to switch out.

I honestly think that once we decided on an offensive pokemon we set this concept on a difficult path. Making an offensive pokemon use what amounts to a support move seems counterintuitive. If you just use PS as a switching move with inhibition, it'd be better to run Volt Switch.

Its not designed to always use parting shot, but is defined by its use of parting shot. However, I do agree on a lot of what you are saying.

The big popular choices, like fire/fairy and fairy/ground. Fairy in general as a STAB would probably lead to the CAP forgoing the parting shot in favour of a more offensive move choice. Dual STABs that hit some walls nicely in order to help setup is pretty nice, like the aforementioned Electric/Grass type. It keeps it really nice and simple, effectively shutting down a lot of big threats to setup, such as tomohawk and collosoil. Fairy/Steel is an option, as it has a really solid defensive typing, and can cause some pain to big threats in the format, whilst only really having one solid STAB to use, as steel would have niche uses, unless it was something along the lines of iron head, to fish for flinches. Fire/Steel and Grass/Steel have good sides too. Both bait in some very predictable switches, and a parting shot into a sweeper can really help out. Fire/steel has some very nice coverage to help out with bringing in bulky grass/dragons in, and steel typing helps out with setting up dragons/flying types. It also baits in ground and water types, so has nice synergy with grass types, such as Malaconda, Necturna and Mega Venusaur. Grass/steel helps out fire types, dealing with bulky water types, and bulky ground types. And by baiting in fire types, it could really help pokemon like Mega Crucibelle and Collosoil out, as they can switch in and cause some chaos.

Overall, I feel the dual STABs aren't supposed to be a complete package for the CAP, with paring shot added for gravy. It would need to have holes, so the pokemon it switches to can patch them up. Types like Fairy/Fire and Fairy/Ground really make the CAP a one-mon killing machine, with some minor hiccups like bulky water types, so would have very little reason to use parting shot, except to escape.

 

[DougJustDoug]

In my previous post, some of my comments could be construed that I wanted a Fairy type so we can beat the dominant Big Three in CAP of Tomohawk, Colossoil, and Cyclohm. I just want to be clear that is NOT what I want. As many have rightly said, the point of CAP 22 is not "Nuke the CAP Meta" or "Down with the CAP Big Three" or anything like that. We are making a pokemon that hopefully will be able to make good use of Parting Shot, a heretofore mostly-unused move in competitive pokemon. If anyone thinks my previous post, combined with my leadership position in CAP, was some free license to turn this thread and project into a CAP Meta Break The Mold, you are wrong. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. It wasn't intentional.

However....

In order to make a pokemon that can use Parting Shot effectively, we need to strongly consider the top threats in the metagame. I don't think we need to necessarily BEAT the top threats in the metagame, but the interplay of CAP 22 with top threats is, IMO, arguably the most important thing for us to think about. Especially so with a move like Parting Shot, which is a switching move whose use will be massively impacted by offensive and defensive type interactions with the pokemon we expect to encounter.

There are many threats to consider in CAP, not just the Big Three. And, as Deck Knight and HeaLnDeaL have pointed out in previous posts, for CAP 22 purposes -- the Big Three are really just the Big Two of Tomohawk and Colossoil. Because Cyclohm, although a key part of CAP RPS, is not particularly interesting in terms of our prospective Parting Shot mon. Beyond the duo of Tomo and Colo, there are other CAP mons like Aurumoth and Cawmodore that loom large in the scope of Parting Shot usage. Aurumoth and Cawmodore are already scary sweepers that can turn a match in an instant. The prospect of those mons getting a Parting Shot -1/-1 silver platter to come in and Dance/Drum their way to sweepage, is something to think long and hard about. Maybe it's a good thing, maybe its a bad thing - but it's definitely A thing for CAP 22 Parting Shot and the typing decision ahead of us.

With all that said, I still find Fairy to be an interesting and compelling typing component for CAP 22. The typing alone creates interesting interplay (some good, some bad) with many top threats in the game, and could make for many interesting experiments with the unexplored move Parting Shot. But for the life of me, I can't figure out which exact Fairy typing combo is best for us to support Parting Shot. I'm pretty sure I don't like Fairy/Ground for reasons mentioned often by others. It's probably too good offensively, and it would probably put CAP 22 in stiff competition with many other really good pokemon for a teamslot. But almost all the other top Fairy typings are contenders for me as a voter, should they make the slate.

One last point about Fairy typing -- Fairy typing, in and of itself, will not destroy the current CAP metagame, in terms of the Big Three RPS of Tomohawk, Colossoil, and Cyclohm. I know this because there are already Fairy types in the game and the CAP meta Big Three are a thing! If the mere existence of Fairy typing on a pokemon made it an unstoppable Tomo/Colo/Clohm killer -- then we would not have the CAP metagame we have now. There are many good Fairy pokemon of every stripe in the game, and yet Tomo/Colo/Clohm continue to thrive. COULD we make a Fairy mon that nukes those three all to hell? Probably. But, like I said earlier, that's not the point of this project. So, if we aren't trying to do that, it's not like a choice of Fairy typing will make it an inevitable consequence.

 

[DarkSlay]

I originally suggested Ice/Fighting, so I suppose I'll discuss the typing a bit further.

A lot of the pushback against Ice/Fighting (or more specifically, Ice) is that "Ice is a bad defensive typing, and this thing is supposed to be a pivot". True, Ice/Fighting has quite a few weaknesses (Fire, Steel, Fighting, Psychic, Flying, and Fairy to be exact), and no one in their right mind is going to say that Ice is going to equate to a defensive pivot weakness-wise. I would just like to point out, however, that a lot of people have also been bringing up wanting CAP22 to draw in specific Pokemon that are prone to being neutered by Parting Shot for teammates to take care of. This is an especially worthwile tactic for pivot teams in general, especially VoltTurn teams. Talonflame, for example, has been brought up as a potential target for CAP22 to bait and draw in. Ice/Fighting DOES draw in specific threats that VoltTurn teams can deal with, and more importantly, it works in tandem with other pivots and partners to take out major threats to momentum-based teams, notably Lando-T, Ferrohtorn, and Garchomp. Weaknesses on a pivot/momentum Pokemon play out differently in battle than they do on paper. Not to mention, to those who are supporting Fairy-type pairings or other type parings like Ice-type, Ground-type, and Firey-type, there's going to be a lot of similarities in terms of number of weaknesses. It's difficult to process, since type weaknesses are ALWAYS a bad thing. However, I urge voters and CAP participants to look past what is easily understandable on paper and start thinking about how a Parting Shot/momentum Pokemon will play in battle. Offensive qualities and speed will trump defensive attributes at the end of the day.

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As another aside for Ice/Fighting, there's some fear that an Ice/Fighting CAP22 will give some unwanted roster spot competition to Syclant, who can also carry off a momentum-based set well enough. However, I'd like to remind the community that while competition for roster slots is a viable criticism of a typing, we're also looking to make the concept as viable as possible. If a typing accomplishes that, regardless of competition, we should be exploring that typing. Also, these kinds of arguments are assuming quite a bit. Considering that Syclant is unique and is walled by few Pokemon thanks to coverage, what if this creates a Syclant + CAP22 Ice core? We can't really predict these kinds of metagame trends outright, especially this early in the game. I'd advise some players to cool their jets when discussing these drawbacks to a typing.

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Fairy/Fighting is also quite similar to Ice/Fighting, and I think it's a decent alternative. While I think Ice/Fighting has more offensive utility and is more to the point with dealing with threats to VoltTurn and such, Fairy/Fighting does offer similar gains while making for a more rounded Pokemon. It also resists Rock and has a 4x resistance to Dark, which is neat. The coverage is walled by Poisons, however that's not a terribly big deal, and most discussed typings are walled by at least one or more similar things (Ice/Fighting is walled by Kitsunoh and Mollux, same as Fairy/Fighting), so the types of Pokemon drawn out are quite similar. My thoughts: Ice/Fighting gives VoltTurn and momentum teams more offense, while Fairy/Fighting gives those teams a bit more balance. I'd still prefer Ice/Fighting, but this is a decent alternative.

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As for other noteworthy types:

Ice/Ground is a decent alternative to Ice/Fighting. I think Ice/Fighting accomplishes more for VoltTurn teams than Ice/Ground, and I don't like having shared common weaknesses to multiple VoltTurn staples (notably Water weak outside of Rotom-W).

Electric/Grass is okay. I think it has surprisingly good offensive coverage and has similar neutral coverage to other suggested typings while having clear and distinct lured typings and Pokemon (Grass-types, Cawmodore, etc.). I don't particularly like its weakness to U-Turn, as stated by others in the thread, since a slow U-Turn will beat a Parting Shot Pokemon regardless. I also don't like it's lack of SE coverage, and its STABs don't play nearly as well together offensively as they'd indicate (a lot of Ground-types are neutral to Grass, for example). Nevertheless, it's a typing to consider if we want to bring a more defensive spin to this pivot/momentum-based Pokemon.

The only Fire-based typing I would consider is Fire/Steel. Fire/Steel lures in Grounds, Waters, and opposing Fires, which all three have common answers to like Rotom-W and the like. However, like Ground-type suggestions, I don't like Water-weak Pokemon, as VoltTurn teams always put a lot of pressure on Rotom-W to deal with them. It's a good idea, and while I think there are better typings, this is a viable typing.

 

[daredevil]

On Fairy/Fighting:

This is the typing that I support the most because of both its good offensive and decent defensive capabilities. I agree with DarkSlay on that defensive utility takes a backseat to offensive prowess, however, we cannot afford to have an objectively poor defensive typing. Resistances to Fighting and Rock cannot be understated to our overall utility to a multitude of team archetypes. Sure, if we want VoltTurn to be our one and only team type that we are useful on, then having a defensive backbone is not that important because we will just get a free switch from one of teammates. But, Balance and even Offense cannot afford to have a Pokemon that cannot take any hits without a devastating offensive presence (like Weavile or Pinsir). Resistance to U-Turn is very, very important to discourage opponents gaining free momentum from us.

Poison types and many Fire types offer a hard-stop to our STAB moves. But considering Fairy's relatively weak attacks, there are many Pokemon which resist Fighting and can take a Moonblast or Play Rough well enough to hit us with one of our five weaknesses like Clefable or Jirachi.

We have already discussed the fact that PS is not enough to justify a teamslot in and of itself, therefor we need a Pokemon that justifies its use through a strong base form with PS used as added justification. Fairy/Fighting allows us to pivot into our resistances and allow us to PS out if we want to predict our opponent to switch into a counter.

 

[Alchemister]

First and foremost, I think that we want Fighting as one of the type CAP22 gets. Most of the reasons were stated above, but let's just state that Fighting singlehandedly ensures Bisharp not wanting to come in at all, while threatening Colossoil (the most relevant of the Big Three for PS, even if just because of Rebound tricks - at -1, CAP22 will be sure Slow U-Turn bait; but if Colo is in, PS works on him as well as on switch, easing predictions) and not nuking all the meta. All in a package with nifty SR resistance and a bunch of STAB moves generally useful for pivots, whichever it finally gets.

Of those, there are two dual types that seem for me the nicest. Water is nice to join Fighting (sorry Argh), with a plethora of switchin opporutnities. The main problems I see here are Flying weakness and the ability to drag in Volt Switchers such as Rotom-W, that may outslow us with their pivoting move, netting a swithc advantage for cheap.

The best on to pair with Fighting is for me, however, Electric. The only somewhat troublesome part with Fighting/Electric I see is that it can bring out mons that don't particularly care about being PS'd (but that often means they are setup baits even without them, so getting just the switch adantage out from forcig those out helps your setup anyway), such as Venusaur or Amoonguss, maybe even bulky Clefable (that being said, that one doesn't care about mostly anything).
For this, CAP22 gets a nice offensive presence, Flying neutrality and SR resistance without being Ground (where Ground becomes often just the "nuke the meta mon"). The additional immunity to Paralysis helps a lot as well. With well-defined weaknesses to Ground, Psychic and Fairy, the bait-and-punish seems to be spot on with this combination.

Sorry if I wasn't as concise and powerful in argumenting as others. Anyway, for me, Fighting/Electric is what my support goes to.

 

[Canis Majoris]

I cannot, for the life of me, support Fire/Fairy. Yes, it can deal with Bisharp very well (neutral to Steel, resists Dark, S/E STAB) and it has great offensive presence (really, the only thing that resists its STAB is lol Tentacruel). But it's weak to Stealth Rock (which damages its longevity immensely) and it cannot switch in to Tankchomp feasibly (already mentioned by snake).

I'll be going through all the Fairy typings and see what they can do (combing through posts in the thread talking about the things this CAP should have). There is no need to talk about immunities or quad resists, seeing as Fairy is immune to Dragon on its own (even still, several of them have immunities/quad resists to other types).

SR resistance (Bold: resists; Italic: neutral; normal: weak to): Ground/Fairy, Fighting/Fairy, Fire/Fairy, Steel/Fairy, Electric/Fairy, Water/Fairy. It's not important that we resist SR, but it is important that we're not weak to it, and I can see most of the Fairy types succeed in this category.

Can handle Bisharp: All of them. I don't think anyone can argue with me here. Even the two typings weak to Steel (Ground/Fairy and Fighting/Fairy) can just use their STAB likely to OHKO Bisharp, and the rest of them can take both of Bisharp's STAB without much hassle. Fire/Fairy is also likely to OHKO.

Ease with most priority: Aqua Jet hits Ground/Fairy and Fire/Fairy, Talon hits Fighting/Fairy, Mach Punch hits Steel/Fairy, Bullet Punch hits Ground/Fairy and Fighting/Fairy, Ice Shard hits Ground/Fairy. The rest all resist Dark and are neutral to Ghost (as well as Normal), so they're mostly unimportant. Notably, Electric/Fairy and Water/Fairy seem to handle priority quite handily (particularly, Water/Fairy can tank CB Azu's Aqua Jet (and Syclant's Ice Shard, though this is no big deal) with no troubles, and Electric/Fairy can tank birdspam).

Fits in with Volturn: This is important, and is the reason why I'm shutting down Water/Fairy and Ground/Fairy (while Electric/Fairy would count, Rotom-W has Levitate, which avoids the immediately in my thoughts. With Rotom-W (#14) being the biggest Volt Switch user, we need a typing that won't feel redundant, and being weak to Grass just doesn't cut it. Additionally, we shouldn't bring something that has redundancy with Landorus-T, the biggest U-Turn pivot (#16). (Of note - Colossoil also counts, though it's not really a pivot)
Looking at all of this, Electric/Fairy seems the way to go. Lures in powerhouses like Colossoil, but could simply Parting Shot out to another teammate for a set-up or to keep momentum.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

TL Post

The time has come to bring this typing discussion to a close. After reviewing the thread and the arguments given for and against each typing, I have decided to slate six typings for CAP 22. They are as follows.

• Fire/Steel
• Electric/Grass
• Steel/Fairy
• Electric/Fighting
• Ice/Ground
• Fairy/Fighting

These typings all bring unique benefits and drawbacks to the table and have the potential to be successful in the CAP metagame. If you do not see a typing discussed in the thread on this slate, it is because the typing had too much overlap with one of the typings on the slate or because I did not believe the typing had too much risk of distracting from the concept of this CAP project. Barring any +1/-1 changes by sparktrain, this will be the slate for the first typing poll. Thank you to everybody for contributing to this discussion. Whatever hiccups there might have been, I feel that it went well overall. I hope to see you all in the typing poll.