Fixed! Thanks, yeah I had moonlight over it, but manaphy's rain prompted me to change it to softboiled.
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Enchanted Items [Now Multibility]
- Thread starter Imperator Romanum
- Start date
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
okay, so at first, i was like "why togekiss of all things lmao" then i saw its set and fucking hell get that shit banned .-. its worse then dragonite...and im the one pushing for a dnite suspect! nasty plot, with gale wings, and serene grace air slash. it just haxes through all its checks and counters. breaks stall, and really cripples offense. and it still has 2 moves to devote to twave, roost, fire blast, or even aura sphere.
not to mention its typing is amazing, and its special attack and bulk are beyond great.
not to mention its typing is amazing, and its special attack and bulk are beyond great.
I've been killing it with Refrigerate (Enigma berry) Extreme Speed Entei, a very common AAA mon, and doing okay.
It's very Hax-y but any Electric type with decent SpD can wall it out because it'll also be immune to Twave. Giving any Rock Type Sand Stream is going to also wall it to no end.
Edit: I'd still ban it though, because Entei isn't going to survive much at +2. Maybe there are some other checks, but I really am having trouble finding a hard counter.
Edit: Shield Dust might be the only way surefire to counteract this. Might be a nice consideration to run on some mons though because of Refrigerate Fake Out Weavile and Serene Grace shenanigans in general.
It's very Hax-y but any Electric type with decent SpD can wall it out because it'll also be immune to Twave. Giving any Rock Type Sand Stream is going to also wall it to no end.
Edit: I'd still ban it though, because Entei isn't going to survive much at +2. Maybe there are some other checks, but I really am having trouble finding a hard counter.
Edit: Shield Dust might be the only way surefire to counteract this. Might be a nice consideration to run on some mons though because of Refrigerate Fake Out Weavile and Serene Grace shenanigans in general.
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Except Shedinja is banned
Done, now update the OP stating Aftermath = Premier Ball and Analytic = Water Gem. Remove Turboblaze and Teravolt too
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I just test with Aaryan1 two thing:
First: combo Weak Armor + Contrary Shuckle - how will react this combination against contact move. We now know is correct for sure: after contact move, Shuckle boost defensive stat and debuff speed.
Second: how Acrobatics will work with item with ability. For this test I use three pokemons with identical atack stat: one wihout item, one with mail (didn't matter what a exacly ability), one with normal item (here: Leftovers)
Result: Acrobatic is useless with second ability, because Acrobatic can't deal double damage with ANY item holded by pokemon.
here replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/enchanteditems-394707488
I make experiment, because someone in OM chat say this Acrobatic should gain boost even then pokemon hold second ability item. Shuckle is just combination what I want test...
How good he could be against physical threats? We have better users of this combination? Have in mind: that contrary is usable only on natural users...
Thank you Aaryan1 for help!
First: combo Weak Armor + Contrary Shuckle - how will react this combination against contact move. We now know is correct for sure: after contact move, Shuckle boost defensive stat and debuff speed.
Second: how Acrobatics will work with item with ability. For this test I use three pokemons with identical atack stat: one wihout item, one with mail (didn't matter what a exacly ability), one with normal item (here: Leftovers)
Result: Acrobatic is useless with second ability, because Acrobatic can't deal double damage with ANY item holded by pokemon.
here replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/enchanteditems-394707488
I make experiment, because someone in OM chat say this Acrobatic should gain boost even then pokemon hold second ability item. Shuckle is just combination what I want test...
How good he could be against physical threats? We have better users of this combination? Have in mind: that contrary is usable only on natural users...
Thank you Aaryan1 for help!
Okay after discussing this in the OM room, and motivation from SpiderKoloPL, I just thought about something. Why ban Togekiss, when Just the combination of Serene Grace+Gale Wings could be banned?
Togekiss has many other useful sets, and it can act like a special offense. It can act like a support, with moves like Healing Wish, Wish, Work Up+Baton Pass etc.
I thought about this, and now I think instead of Togekiss being suspected wholly, just the set Gale Wings+Serene Grace shall be suspected. Grains of Salt
Togekiss has many other useful sets, and it can act like a special offense. It can act like a support, with moves like Healing Wish, Wish, Work Up+Baton Pass etc.
I thought about this, and now I think instead of Togekiss being suspected wholly, just the set Gale Wings+Serene Grace shall be suspected. Grains of Salt
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
I don't really like this proposal as complex banning just opens the door for many more arbitrary and useless unbans to keep broken mons. There are plenty other options besides Togekiss that can fill the cleric support spot, so I don't really see an issue with banning it outright.
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I'd been doing some detailed analysis and I thought it was worth saying that the speed tiers here are a little odd and a fair amount of the Pokemon that rely on Dragon Dance setup or high base speed just aren't that viable here.
For Example, if you want a fast/frail Psychic type; Exeggutor clocks in at 55 x 2 (Chlorophyll) - [max 458]; where Alakazam is 'only' 120 - [max 372].
Additionally though Extreme Speed Dragonite is one of the best mons in the tier; if you're building a more normal Dragonite (No Guard Dynamic Punch; Protean Earthquake; etc.) you need to take into account that unless your ability is Delta Stream to deny weather and cover your flying weaknesses, even if you Double Dance a (Sand Stream/Sand Rush) Excadrill will outspeed you on switch in, since it's base 88 (+2) on switch in and if you only dance once Almost ALL Chlorophyll/Swift Swim/Sand Rush users will outspeed you six way to sunday.
THAT said; given the commonality of Priority abilities we basically have to think of the base speed tiers like this:
- EKillers (Dragonite, Entei, Lucario, etc.)
- Prankster, Technician (Normal Priority), Gale Wings - (Staraptor, Aurorus, etc.)
- Chlorophyll, Swift Swim, Sand Rush (Kabutops, Venusaur, Excadrill, Tyranitar, etc.)
- Setup Dragon Dancers, Speed Boost Users (with less than 3 turns of setup) - (Gyarados, Non-ESpeed Dragonite, Machamp, etc.)
- Normal Fast/Frail pokemon (Weavile, Gengar, Aerodactyl, etc.) - These are less viable than normal because of priority and Swift Swimmers.
- Unsetup Dragon Dancers/Speed Boosts users; Wallbreakers. (Porygon-Z, Charizard, etc.)
- Slow/Bulky mons, (Walls/Tanks)
Roughly.
In very short, don't count on Dragon Dance, Speed Boost or normal fast/frail pokemon being that amazing when (Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, Sand Rush) and Priority are so prevalent.
For Example, if you want a fast/frail Psychic type; Exeggutor clocks in at 55 x 2 (Chlorophyll) - [max 458]; where Alakazam is 'only' 120 - [max 372].
Additionally though Extreme Speed Dragonite is one of the best mons in the tier; if you're building a more normal Dragonite (No Guard Dynamic Punch; Protean Earthquake; etc.) you need to take into account that unless your ability is Delta Stream to deny weather and cover your flying weaknesses, even if you Double Dance a (Sand Stream/Sand Rush) Excadrill will outspeed you on switch in, since it's base 88 (+2) on switch in and if you only dance once Almost ALL Chlorophyll/Swift Swim/Sand Rush users will outspeed you six way to sunday.
THAT said; given the commonality of Priority abilities we basically have to think of the base speed tiers like this:
- EKillers (Dragonite, Entei, Lucario, etc.)
- Prankster, Technician (Normal Priority), Gale Wings - (Staraptor, Aurorus, etc.)
- Chlorophyll, Swift Swim, Sand Rush (Kabutops, Venusaur, Excadrill, Tyranitar, etc.)
- Setup Dragon Dancers, Speed Boost Users (with less than 3 turns of setup) - (Gyarados, Non-ESpeed Dragonite, Machamp, etc.)
- Normal Fast/Frail pokemon (Weavile, Gengar, Aerodactyl, etc.) - These are less viable than normal because of priority and Swift Swimmers.
- Unsetup Dragon Dancers/Speed Boosts users; Wallbreakers. (Porygon-Z, Charizard, etc.)
- Slow/Bulky mons, (Walls/Tanks)
Roughly.
In very short, don't count on Dragon Dance, Speed Boost or normal fast/frail pokemon being that amazing when (Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, Sand Rush) and Priority are so prevalent.
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Idk if this is a glitch of not but it seems to avoid the baton pass clause
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/enchanteditems-394794871
I just built this team for testing speed boost. It seems like the mechanics dont recognize the dusk ball as a speed increase, so it won't stop the battle search.
I also tested with shell smash to see if baton pass clause was still in effect and it is. If a Pokemon that learns speed boost naturally(Scolipede) still can't pass with sword dance. But yeah that's just something I found...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/enchanteditems-394794871
I just built this team for testing speed boost. It seems like the mechanics dont recognize the dusk ball as a speed increase, so it won't stop the battle search.
I also tested with shell smash to see if baton pass clause was still in effect and it is. If a Pokemon that learns speed boost naturally(Scolipede) still can't pass with sword dance. But yeah that's just something I found...
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Suspect 1.1: Where is your god now?
Togekiss has been banned! To spend our time as OMOTM most efficiently, bans are decided quickly. Within 36 Hours there was an 80% majority in favour of ban, and I'd have to agree. I've played around with it myself, and generally it had the potential to be a really big problem. Countless times was I haxed to death, so no more. Togekiss is now gone and ascending only to be usable in Enchanted items Plus - coming soon.
The Immortal
If you believe anything else is broken or deserving of a suspect, then feel free to post about in the thread. Currently I'm looking into the following Dragonite, Manaphy and Baton pass. And for the time, don't talk about Baton pass - I'm aware and we're working on it.
Thank you
Two things I've found troublesome are Mold Breaker and Illusion. Illusion I think is uncompetitive for reasons similar to those that got it banned in AAA, it can be on ANYTHING, isn't known at team preview, and can cost you a mon when you think it's a counter. Mold Breaker flattens stall. I'd like to hear how other people are dealing with these to be honest, especially Mold Breaker.
Really enjoying this meta! Nice work Grains of Salt.
I kinda skimmed the thread so sorry if I missed anything that's been said already but here are a couple sets I've been using.
Also Praise Helix for Kiss ban
EDIT:
Thoughts on Manaphy, as seen from the perspective of facing it, not using it.
Manaphy seems more broken because of the way it can run different sets to invalidate its checks and counters than because of any one set being particularly broken. Not that they differ THAT much, but they're important differences. The sets I've seen or heard of so far are as follows: Primordial Sea Tail Glow Rest sweeper, Primordial Sea Calm Mind Rest sweeper, Mold Breaker Tail Glow sweeper. If I'm missing anything say something. Unaware is the best counter to Primsea sets, but Unaware users are slaughtered by Mold Breaker variants.
+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 306-360 (46.9 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 272-321 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 182-214 (51.7 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
However it's countered more reliably by something like Desolate Land Heatran, as well as vulnerable to status and without reliable recovery.
Primordial Sea has a much easier time not being worn down. You basically need to OHKO it in order to garner a kill, and with 100 / 100 bulk that's a pretty tall order. Unaware mons can wall this set, but most don't do much back, unless they're unaware set-up sweepers.
Walling Manaphy by typing is also a difficult prospect, because it can run any of Ice Beam / Energy Ball / Dazzling Gleam / Shadow Ball viably, alongside its water STAB. Something that thinks it walls Manaphy can suddenly find itself on the receiving end of an unappreciated coverage move.
This all being said I'm not in favor of banning Manaphy yet. Honestly I say ban Mold Breaker, because without having multiple sets Manaphy isn't anywhere near as bad, and while Mold Breaker isn't worst on Manaphy individually, it makes stall nigh impossible here in general. Ofc Manaphy breaks stall pretty well regardless.
Really enjoying this meta! Nice work Grains of Salt.
I kinda skimmed the thread so sorry if I missed anything that's been said already but here are a couple sets I've been using.
Heatran @ Grip Claw (Desolate Land)
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
- Rock Slide
This mainly sees use as a Manaphy check and wallbreaker. Run it alongside something that can take on Flash Fire Ferrothorn and Levitran.
Latios @ Pamtre Berry (Tinted Lens)
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Defog
- Roost
- Psyshock
You'll be amazed at the number of steel types that try to take a Draco Meteor from this guy and take more damage then they wanted to. Scared of Weavile, but it can't switch in on Draco Meteor.
Haxorus @ Dusk Ball / Speed Boost
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Taunt / Poison Jab / Iron Head
I haven't tried this guy out yet but he seems fun. In a similar vein to the Speed Boost Excadrills that are running around all over the place. As a mattre of fact Speed Boost + Swords Dance works on a LOT of mons, including Excadrill and Haxorus, Diggersby, and probably Garchomp. Bring your Skarmory's, and watch them get trapped by some Magnet Puller.
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
- Rock Slide
This mainly sees use as a Manaphy check and wallbreaker. Run it alongside something that can take on Flash Fire Ferrothorn and Levitran.
Latios @ Pamtre Berry (Tinted Lens)
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Defog
- Roost
- Psyshock
You'll be amazed at the number of steel types that try to take a Draco Meteor from this guy and take more damage then they wanted to. Scared of Weavile, but it can't switch in on Draco Meteor.
Haxorus @ Dusk Ball / Speed Boost
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Taunt / Poison Jab / Iron Head
I haven't tried this guy out yet but he seems fun. In a similar vein to the Speed Boost Excadrills that are running around all over the place. As a mattre of fact Speed Boost + Swords Dance works on a LOT of mons, including Excadrill and Haxorus, Diggersby, and probably Garchomp. Bring your Skarmory's, and watch them get trapped by some Magnet Puller.
Also Praise Helix for Kiss ban
EDIT:
Thoughts on Manaphy, as seen from the perspective of facing it, not using it.
Manaphy seems more broken because of the way it can run different sets to invalidate its checks and counters than because of any one set being particularly broken. Not that they differ THAT much, but they're important differences. The sets I've seen or heard of so far are as follows: Primordial Sea Tail Glow Rest sweeper, Primordial Sea Calm Mind Rest sweeper, Mold Breaker Tail Glow sweeper. If I'm missing anything say something. Unaware is the best counter to Primsea sets, but Unaware users are slaughtered by Mold Breaker variants.
+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 306-360 (46.9 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 272-321 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 182-214 (51.7 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
However it's countered more reliably by something like Desolate Land Heatran, as well as vulnerable to status and without reliable recovery.
Primordial Sea has a much easier time not being worn down. You basically need to OHKO it in order to garner a kill, and with 100 / 100 bulk that's a pretty tall order. Unaware mons can wall this set, but most don't do much back, unless they're unaware set-up sweepers.
Walling Manaphy by typing is also a difficult prospect, because it can run any of Ice Beam / Energy Ball / Dazzling Gleam / Shadow Ball viably, alongside its water STAB. Something that thinks it walls Manaphy can suddenly find itself on the receiving end of an unappreciated coverage move.
This all being said I'm not in favor of banning Manaphy yet. Honestly I say ban Mold Breaker, because without having multiple sets Manaphy isn't anywhere near as bad, and while Mold Breaker isn't worst on Manaphy individually, it makes stall nigh impossible here in general. Ofc Manaphy breaks stall pretty well regardless.
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The Immortal, hi, i want this replay to be checked. I think it had a glitch.
there it is : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/enchanteditems-395060667
there it is : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/enchanteditems-395060667
bp scrub
rub a dub dub one scrub in a tub
I-Isn't that just magic bounce? Or were u talking about the fact that the magic bounce message doesnt show up when its a secondary ability? that probably needs to be fixed yeah
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I'm glad that Manaphy's being looked into; as others have said, the only way I've found to really beat it is a OHKO, since Hydration+Primordial Sea+Rest gives it instant recovery at zero cost. I don't know if Dragonite is as much of a problem; Aerilate Dragonite does have a very powerful STAB move, but I wouldn't say it's all that much worse than Acrobatics Talonflame in the standard metagame. It can still be walled, as without boosting items its coverage moves aren't as powerful as normal.
What I am very concerned about is Porygon-Z. With Protean+Adaptability, neutral hits effectively deal super effective damage (a x2 modifier), and its movepool gives it excellent coverage so that it can hit many mons super-effectively, giving it the ability to hit a lot of the tier at x4. Special walls are less effective because of its access to Psyshock, allowing it to rip into their Defense stats, and with Adaptability+Protean, even hitting neutrally is destructive. I'll admit that I may be reacting prematurely, but I'm concerned that Porygon-Z's access to Adaptability and Protean is either broken or noncompetitive.
What I am very concerned about is Porygon-Z. With Protean+Adaptability, neutral hits effectively deal super effective damage (a x2 modifier), and its movepool gives it excellent coverage so that it can hit many mons super-effectively, giving it the ability to hit a lot of the tier at x4. Special walls are less effective because of its access to Psyshock, allowing it to rip into their Defense stats, and with Adaptability+Protean, even hitting neutrally is destructive. I'll admit that I may be reacting prematurely, but I'm concerned that Porygon-Z's access to Adaptability and Protean is either broken or noncompetitive.
Ok, can someone tell me what ability toxic orb gives you?i cant find it on the list or is it even on there?
id put calm mind in the last slot
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It's unchanged, so Pokemon with Guts and Pokemon with Poison Heal aren't rendered having a worthless ability
Tyranitar @ Oran Berry (Sand Rush)
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Stealth Rock
Since we're discussing possibly suspecting Dragonite, I'd like to bring up a solid check to it, as well as Talonflame and basically any of the Gale Wing birds that are everywhere, Sand Rush Tar. This set is so, so solid. Flying-type priority is the most common priority in the metagame by far, so having a speedy mon that can take numerous strong Flying-type hits is really valuable. For Dragonite, If you switch into Aerilate Extremespeed or Dragon Dance, Dragonite's sash will be broken by Sand damage, allowing you to outspeed and OHKO it. This also serves as a fast check to most Psychics (which are pretty awesome in this metagame since Knock Off is powered down and doesn't remove items). So having Crunch as opposed to Knock Off is actually really nice.
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Stealth Rock
Since we're discussing possibly suspecting Dragonite, I'd like to bring up a solid check to it, as well as Talonflame and basically any of the Gale Wing birds that are everywhere, Sand Rush Tar. This set is so, so solid. Flying-type priority is the most common priority in the metagame by far, so having a speedy mon that can take numerous strong Flying-type hits is really valuable. For Dragonite, If you switch into Aerilate Extremespeed or Dragon Dance, Dragonite's sash will be broken by Sand damage, allowing you to outspeed and OHKO it. This also serves as a fast check to most Psychics (which are pretty awesome in this metagame since Knock Off is powered down and doesn't remove items). So having Crunch as opposed to Knock Off is actually really nice.
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Hmm... really interesting moveset I must say... I think I could use this one... one day...
But I write post because information about Knock Off. Someone told me this move DOES gain buff even when you can't remove oponents item when give ability. I hear someone test it...
Sadly I can't show replay and calcs right now (now I write from tablet, what is really hard for me to test this from tablet).
Also person who test it didn't show replay... only some other people agree with it.
Someone could give link to replay and show result of using Knock Off on pokemon with item what give ability?
Sadly that's a client-side thing so there's nothing the server can do about it.
I was playing earlier today, and someone was using smooth rock Ttar as a magic bounce set up sweeper, which is fine. However, as the battle went on I noticed that the smooth rock had given the sandstorm 8 turns instead of 5, in ADDITION to magic bounce Ttar. I don't know if this is on purpose or not, but I thought it was worth mentioning, I would recommend testing this with the other rocks as well. (I forgot to save the replay...)
I don't know if it'd be easy to code at all, but it'd be interesting if, under these circumstances, Normal-type moves turn into Flying Press, which is to say, Fairy AND Flying, in the example of Sylveon.
On another note, I'm just now reading through the entire thread, and this metagame sounds very fun and interesting!
It's affected by Aerilate and not Pixilate
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/enchanteditems-395454158