Enchanted Items [Now Multibility]

So is there any way to beat the side-effect of being able to Baton Pass Speed and other stat boosts due to items? I saw someone mention Speed Boost as an item that was not banned, and I just ran into a Download Scolipede that tried to Baton Pass after some turns of Speed Boost.

EDIT: I didn't mean this as how to beat it in-battle, but rather how to make it illegal in accordance with BP Clause
 
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So does Toxic Boost + Guts stack?

Also, CritDra is pretty fun in this meta. Everyone expects the typical SwiftDra + Thick Club so it's a one-time gimmick but it is pretty much the only other way to bypass Unaware sets apart from Mold Breaker stuff. Also makes Draco Meteor pretty spammable, as it hits slightly harder than Nasty Plot + peseudo-Unaware.

Kingdra @ Love Ball
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Energy
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

-Focus Energy for the +2 to crit to stack with the +1 to crit from Super Luck, and this compounds with sniper for 2.25x damage all around. That's basically an unbypassable Nasty Plot that acts as a pseudo-Unaware

-Draco Meteor is unaffected by its stat drop after a Focus Energy thanks to the nature of critical hits, and is very spammable, even on resisted mons.
-Hydro Pump for the STAB and hitting the ubiquitous CM Unaware + Magic Guard Clefable. Use Draco Meteor because of accuracy issues for anything else though

Ice Beam for general coverage or if you fear accuracy issues. Agility could be substituted here, but odds are, you're going to face a faster/survivable Twave or prankster Spore/Sleep Powder sometime after you set up, so you'll want the extra coverage to dish out damage instead on things like Ferrothorn


Weak to: Paralysis, Shell Armor (Mega Slowbro), anything faster than 269/295 speed depending on nature and can dish out hits, pink blobs (especially Eviolite cancer blob), Empoleon


Some calculations for comparison.

252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Amoonguss on a critical hit: 402-474 (93 - 109.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Amoonguss on a critical hit: 508-600 (117.5 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable on a critical hit: 388-459 (98.7 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable on a critical hit: 211-249 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand on a critical hit: 480-567 (140.7 - 166.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey on a critical hit: 270-319 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn on a critical hit: 160-189 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO
 
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Hello everyone!

I'm new to this tier. This is my team:

Haxorus @ Smooth Rock (Magic Bounce)
Ability: Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Poison Jab
- Low Kick

Noivern @ Air Balloon (Aerilate)
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Dragon Pulse
- U-turn
- Taunt

Kingdra @ Thick Club (Primordial Sea)
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Dragon Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Toxic

Weavile @ Enigma Berry (Refrigerate)
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Feint
- Return
- Low Kick

Raikou @ Grip Claw (Desolate Lands)
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Weather Ball

Dragonite @ Air Balloon (Aerilate)
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Return
- Protect

Raikou is my "Bird check" (for the Gale Wing Sweepers), Manaphy/ rain check and generally deals with weather pokes and gives momentum (Volt turn with Noivern).
Kingdra my Weather Sweeper (gets rid of Ttar and can switch in into Sun Sweepers).
Weavile just being Weaviling + getting rid of Dnite (with Feint).
Haxrous deals with Hyper Stall.
Dnite and Noivern. Needless to explain.


Now my problem is, that with my current team, I cannot deal with the Skarm/ Blissey core. Skarm ist manageable, especially with Haxorus, Raikou (Volt Switch + Weather Ball for those Excadrilles) and Noivern. But I might add a Magnet Pull, just to make sure. Blissey on the other hand is a pain to deal with, especially with Regenerator. I originally had my Taunt Noivern to deal with it, but when at low HP it just switches out and gets HP back. How do you guys deal with that?
 
I would really like to see a suspect for Primordial Sea Manaphy. It's a nightmare to actually check, let alone counter. It's a nightmare for stall, with even highly specialized counters not really working as counters, as they often can't do anything except try to PP stall it to death, and offense only has a handful of Pokemon able to reasonably reliably switch in to it to then try to grab the OHKO. (Which is harder to get than you'd hope, as it's actually fairly bulky, and its two weaknesses are not as exploitable as one might hope) It's basically only reliably not a problem if your entire team happens to be 100+ Speed and capable of inflicting at least 50% on Manaphy.

Also, Dusk Ball still bypasses Baton Pass Clause currently.

Yo mate can u ban the stall god clefable unaware and magic guard are bad enough but with access to cosmic power/calm mind and having recovery as in soft-boiled/moonlight/wish its a pain to go up against. And because of unaware you cant set up and it kills very easily and once it starts you cannot stop it.
Run Mold Breaker+Unaware setup sweepers if you find it such a pain. Taunt can also be used to severely cripple it, allowing you to wear it down with it unable to recover or set up.

-----------

I've been having a lot of fun with Regenerator Blissey. It can consistently soak Special hits, with even Volt Switch shenanigans incapable of wearing it down because it heals on the switch anyway, it can switch into Scald and then make the Burn and damage go away at the same time with a switch, it's just a really incredible Special wall in general, largely obviating some of Chansey/Blissey's worst flaws and providing a lot of the utility to the team as an excellent Wish passer.

I actually ran it as Unaware for a bit until I realized that there wasn't really anything Unaware let it beat/check in a meaningful way that it didn't already deal with. (It lets it stall Primordial Sea Manaphy to death, I guess? Eventually?)

Regenerator Heatran is cool, too, though for the moment I've got it instead set up as a Manaphy check, which makes me sad. (... though admittedly my team would require reshuffling to return it to Regenerator, thanks to Ability Clause)

Aside from Primordial Sea Manaphy, I'm surprised at how diverse and balanced the meta is so far. I was really expecting a bit more noticeable centralization.
 
Aside from Primordial Sea Manaphy, I'm surprised at how diverse and balanced the meta is so far. I was really expecting a bit more noticeable centralization.
Yup, that and dragonite. Both, to me, are mons that you can only deal with by being exceedingly careful in both teambuilding (incorporating multiple checks) and in battle (keeping your checks alive and never allowing either a free turn). For instance, I'm using Whimsicott as a (fairly shaky) check to Manaphy. Switch in on the Tail Glow and encore. I'm using Sand Rush Tyranitar as a check to Dragonite. But if I misread the Tail Glow or I miss a Stone Edge, I'll generally lose the match. Simple as that. Outside of these two threats, I agree that it's a surprisingly diverse metagame. Having to devote your item slot to a secondary ability really does balance things out quite a bit.
 
Straight from Mix and Mega


Mienshao @ Mail
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Me First
- Taunt / U-turn / Fairy coverage

High Jump Kick kills everything. When a stupid bird switches in to revenge with their supposed gale wings, you can use Me First at +1 priority to smack them back.

252 Atk Reckless Mienshao Brave Bird (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 305-359 (98 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

You can also use Me First against other physical attackers (in your priority bracket) when at +2 Atk. Mienshao hits hard.

Lucario can perform a similar role, though on the special side as well, if it wishes. With nasty plot and swords dance, a prankster Lucario can get the sick dual gimmicks of prankster Me-First and prankster copycat of +2 SpA Focus blast. Unfortunately over shadowed by E-Speeders.
 
I would really like to see a suspect for Primordial Sea Manaphy. It's a nightmare to actually check, let alone counter. It's a nightmare for stall, with even highly specialized counters not really working as counters, as they often can't do anything except try to PP stall it to death, and offense only has a handful of Pokemon able to reasonably reliably switch in to it to then try to grab the OHKO. (Which is harder to get than you'd hope, as it's actually fairly bulky, and its two weaknesses are not as exploitable as one might hope) It's basically only reliably not a problem if your entire team happens to be 100+ Speed and capable of inflicting at least 50% on Manaphy.

Also, Dusk Ball still bypasses Baton Pass Clause currently.



Run Mold Breaker+Unaware setup sweepers if you find it such a pain. Taunt can also be used to severely cripple it, allowing you to wear it down with it unable to recover or set up.

-----------

I've been having a lot of fun with Regenerator Blissey. It can consistently soak Special hits, with even Volt Switch shenanigans incapable of wearing it down because it heals on the switch anyway, it can switch into Scald and then make the Burn and damage go away at the same time with a switch, it's just a really incredible Special wall in general, largely obviating some of Chansey/Blissey's worst flaws and providing a lot of the utility to the team as an excellent Wish passer.

I actually ran it as Unaware for a bit until I realized that there wasn't really anything Unaware let it beat/check in a meaningful way that it didn't already deal with. (It lets it stall Primordial Sea Manaphy to death, I guess? Eventually?)

Regenerator Heatran is cool, too, though for the moment I've got it instead set up as a Manaphy check, which makes me sad. (... though admittedly my team would require reshuffling to return it to Regenerator, thanks to Ability Clause)

Aside from Primordial Sea Manaphy, I'm surprised at how diverse and balanced the meta is so far. I was really expecting a bit more noticeable centralization.
I agree with Primordial sea manaphy being broken, but it does have some checks. Two great examples are Primsea Heliolisk and Desotran.
Primsea Heliolisk, with 100% accurate Thunder, and Immunity from Fire, Water and Ghost types, is supposed to be the next big thing after Dnite. It also learns Surf, to take even more advantage from the weather.
Oh and one more thing, Baton Pass clause for EI got fixed just 8 hours ago lol

Now my problem is, that with my current team, I cannot deal with the Skarm/ Blissey core. Skarm ist manageable, especially with Haxorus, Raikou (Volt Switch + Weather Ball for those Excadrilles) and Noivern. But I might add a Magnet Pull, just to make sure. Blissey on the other hand is a pain to deal with, especially with Regenerator. I originally had my Taunt Noivern to deal with it, but when at low HP it just switches out and gets HP back. How do you guys deal with that?
I haven't seen many blisseys, but whenever I do, I use the same thing that I used to Togekill:


Togekilled in Bliss (Lapras) @ Thick Club
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Perish Song
- Block
- Rest
- Protect

RIP Blisseys lol
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After much demand, I've added a new command to Abyssal Bot, it's -ie. It allows you to check what ability does an item give. Usage: -ie <item>.
IMG_20160706_113412.jpg

It's still under development, so the returned abilities won't have spacing or capitalization as of now. Yeah but I'll fix that SOON™
 
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Primsea Heliolisk, with 100% accurate Thunder, and Immunity from Fire, Water and Ghost types, is supposed to be the next big thing after Dnite. It also learns Surf, to take even more advantage from the weather.
Between the fact that Heliolisk lacks a powerful priority move, can't boost its stats, has no recovery, and is very frail... I'm struggling to justify mentioning Heliolisk and Dragonite in the same sentence, much less call Heliolisk 'the next big thing'. It seems usable as a version of Regen Rotom-Wash that isn't walled by Lightningrod Volcanion (stellar set btw), but it definitely does not strike me as a stand-out attacker or momentum grabber.

no but seriously if you use Shuca Berry on Volcanion you can actually pinpoint the second when the Volt Switch user's heart rips in half
 
Personally I'd rather use No Guard on Dragonite, as that still lets it use Fire Blast while also giving it a perfectly accurate Focus Blast. It has a better movepool than Tornadus-T, and can afford to run a Modest Nature. I've also had a lot of success with Sand Rush Tyranitar, as it can outrun base 150s even with an Adamant nature. It's a great check to Gale Wings users. Compound Eyes Durant's good fun too, as that negates the accuracy penalty of Hustle.

Personally I think Braviary's the best Gale Wings user - it's bulkier than Staraptor and Honchkrow, and can use Defiant to punish Defog. What would be some good abilities for Archeops? Magic Guard lets it use recoil free Head Smashes while also negating its Stealth Rock weakness. Aerilate seems pretty solid too, as it also gets Quick Attack.
 
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Between the fact that Heliolisk lacks a powerful priority move, can't boost its stats, has no recovery, and is very frail... I'm struggling to justify mentioning Heliolisk and Dragonite in the same sentence, much less call Heliolisk 'the next big thing'. It seems usable as a version of Regen Rotom-Wash that isn't walled by Lightningrod Volcanion (stellar set btw), but it definitely does not strike me as a stand-out attacker or momentum grabber.

no but seriously if you use Shuca Berry on Volcanion you can actually pinpoint the second when the Volt Switch user's heart rips in half
To be fair, Heliolisk should be recovering 1/8 of its HP every turn under rain, which would go a long way in keeping it healthier.
Personally I'd rather use No Guard on Dragonite, as that still lets it use Fire Blast while also giving it a perfectly accurate Focus Blast. It has a better movepool than Tornadus-T, and can afford to run a Modest Nature. I've also had a lot of success with Sand Rush Tyranitar, as it can outrun base 150s even with an Adamant nature. It's a great check to Gale Wings users. Compound Eyes Durant's good fun too, as that negates the accuracy penalty of Hustle.

Personally I think Braviary's the best Gale Wings user - it's bulkier than Staraptor and Honchkrow, and can use Defiant to punish Defog. What would be some good abilities for Archeops? Magic Guard lets it use recoil free Head Smashes while also negating its Stealth Rock weakness. Aerilate seems pretty solid too, as it also gets Quick Attack.
Honchkrow has done well for me so far, and Staraptor and Honchkrow are both stronger, but I don't think Braviary's bulk beats out Honch's difficulty to stop after a KO or Staraptor's speed. The best defogger as far as I can tell is still Skarmory, and at +2 you utterly fail to break it, while losing your Defiant boost to Superpower's Attack drops. You can't Bulk Up on it either since you just get phazed out.
 
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Honchkrow has done well for me so far, and Staraptor and Honchkrow are both stronger, but I don't think Braviary's bulk beats out Honch's difficulty to stop after a KO or Staraptor's speed. The best defogger as far as I can tell is still Skarmory, and at +2 you utterly fail to break it, while losing your Defiant boost to Superpower's Attack drops. You can't Bulk Up on it either since you just get phazed out.
I agree. Honchcrow also gets moxie, which boosts it's attack as it kills something. Staraptor gets Reckless, which boosts brave birds power, and it also gets Close Combat (which doesn't reduce attack and has more power) and gets better speed.
 
Yup, that and dragonite. Both, to me, are mons that you can only deal with by being exceedingly careful in both teambuilding (incorporating multiple checks) and in battle (keeping your checks alive and never allowing either a free turn). For instance, I'm using Whimsicott as a (fairly shaky) check to Manaphy. Switch in on the Tail Glow and encore. I'm using Sand Rush Tyranitar as a check to Dragonite. But if I misread the Tail Glow or I miss a Stone Edge, I'll generally lose the match. Simple as that. Outside of these two threats, I agree that it's a surprisingly diverse metagame. Having to devote your item slot to a secondary ability really does balance things out quite a bit.
I haven't found Dragonite to be an issue, though admittedly I'm running a stall-y team. Unaware Physical walls laugh at it so long as they're not suspectible to Superpower or one of its STABs, and even coverage moves don't actually let it beat non-Unaware Skarmory -+1 Fire Punch is only 50% damage, which means Skarmory can switch in on a Dragon Dance and Whirlwind it out. (This is shaky and not something to rely on, even aside from the risk of being Burned, but it illustrate my point that Aerilate Dragonite can't beat it reliably)

Offensive teams have tools like Refrigerate Weavile, which has Fake Out and Feint. (Which means Protect Dragonite isn't remotely safe from it) Dragonite is cool and all, but it's actually a much less overwhelming force than I expected and in fact its popularity on the ladder seems to be dropping.

I agree with Primordial sea manaphy being broken, but it does have some checks. Two great examples are Primsea Heliolisk and Desotran.
Thunder actually isn't a OHKO on bulky Manaphy, not without some other Ability to bolster Heliolisk's damage. Admittedly, Manaphy can't OHKO at +3 with any of its neutral coverage options at any better of a rate than 31.3% of the time, but if Heliolisk ever ends up with even leftover chipping damage after switching into a Tail Glow and being healed by Dry Skin, it'll be OHKOed and fail to get the OHKO. That's a lot shakier than I'd prefer. Unaware Heliolisk would be an actually reliable counter, though rather narrowly specialized if not being specifically used by a Rain team.

Desolate Land Heatran requires something like Wish support to not simply be worn down over repeated switches. It's a check, but honestly it's not a very good check.

I haven't seen many blisseys, but whenever I do, I use the same thing that I used to Togekill:


Togekilled in Bliss (Lapras) @ Thick Club
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Perish Song
- Block
- Rest
- Protect

RIP Blisseys lol
... I'm not sure why Blissey would switch into or stay in on Primordial Sea Lapras? I mean, if it does do that, this is a winner, but... why would Blissey stay in on this? It's obviously a Hydration abuser, and Blissey can't do jack to that, so obviously it's going to switch and never get hit with Block.

Personally I'd rather use No Guard on Dragonite, as that still lets it use Fire Blast while also giving it a perfectly accurate Focus Blast. It has a better movepool than Tornadus-T, and can afford to run a Modest Nature.
It's a lot slower than Tornadus-Therian and lacks Regenerator and U-Turn. Tornadus-Therian also has more Special Attack, Fire Blast is only slightly stronger than Heat Wave. (Not far off from the difference in Special Attack between the Pokemon, in fact) Ice Beam/Blizzard and Draco Meteor are the only substantial points in Dragonite's favor, and they're kind of lackluster reasons to run it over Tornadus-Therian.

Compound Eyes Durant's good fun too, as that negates the accuracy penalty of Hustle.
Nope. Hustle's 1/3rd drop in Accuracy is greater than a 33% increase in Accuracy. 50% more Accuracy is the equivalent to 33% less Accuracy. No Guard is better anyway, and I have difficulty imagining a team wanting 3+ No Guarders.
 
I haven't found Dragonite to be an issue, though admittedly I'm running a stall-y team. Unaware Physical walls laugh at it so long as they're not suspectible to Superpower or one of its STABs, and even coverage moves don't actually let it beat non-Unaware Skarmory -+1 Fire Punch is only 50% damage, which means Skarmory can switch in on a Dragon Dance and Whirlwind it out. (This is shaky and not something to rely on, even aside from the risk of being Burned, but it illustrate my point that Aerilate Dragonite can't beat it reliably)

Offensive teams have tools like Refrigerate Weavile, which has Fake Out and Feint. (Which means Protect Dragonite isn't remotely safe from it) Dragonite is cool and all, but it's actually a much less overwhelming force than I expected and in fact its popularity on the ladder seems to be dropping.Nope. Hustle's 1/3rd drop in Accuracy is greater than a 33% increase in Accuracy. 50% more Accuracy is the equivalent to 33% less Accuracy. No Guard is better anyway, and I have difficulty imagining a team wanting 3+ No Guarders.
Fair enough, stall teams have solid ways of dealing with Dragonite. I'm mostly speaking from experience with balancier teams. Honestly, does offense have many options for solid checks outside of Weavile and Sand Rush Tyranitar? Tyranitar's really solid but I've always found Weavile to be sort of underwhelming in any role other than taking out Dragonite since it doesn't have strong dark STAB in this meta and with a refrigerate set it's devoting half its moveset and it's item slot to weak ice priority. And so many things in this meta outspeed it. And obviously it can't switch in so you're sacking something to get it in.

Nope. Hustle's 1/3rd drop in Accuracy is greater than a 33% increase in Accuracy. 50% more Accuracy is the equivalent to 33% less Accuracy. No Guard is better anyway, and I have difficulty imagining a team wanting 3+ No Guarders.
According to Bulbapedia, Hustle lowers the accuracy of physical moves by 20%, not 1/3.
 
Ghoul King
On mobile, so quoting is a pain.

Primordial sea heliolisk might have trouble with +3 manaphy, but lightning rod heliolisk does not. A set with electrify / thunder / psych up / hyper voice can beat any common manaphy variant. Tail glow sets get electrified, while calm mind versions get their stats stolen. All this while letting you use a better primordial sea Pokemon.
 
To be fair, Heliolisk should be recovering 1/8 of its HP every turn under rain, which would go a long way in keeping it healthier.
I mean, if your primary concern with keeping Heliolisk alive is chip damage, for some reason...? It has 62/52/94 bulk, and while it does have a nice set of immunities, Heliolisk will not last very long against much of the tier. Passive recovery would mean a lot more to Heliolisk if a bunch of things couldn't just OHKO it through that recovery.

Ghoul King
On mobile, so quoting is a pain.

Primordial sea heliolisk might have trouble with +3 manaphy, but lightning rod heliolisk does not. A set with electrify / thunder / psych up / hyper voice can beat any common manaphy variant. Tail glow sets get electrified, while calm mind versions get their stats stolen. All this while letting you use a better primordial sea Pokemon.
Yikes, that's overspecialized. Honestly, if you're that dedicated to answering Manaphy, just put some SpD EVs on an Unaware+Magic Guard Clefable and set up on it. You'll have a reliable Manaphy answer that can actually check a bunch of other threatening things and potentially sweep in its own right. 252 HP / 96+ SpD will do the trick even against Surf Manaphy.
 
I mean, if your primary concern with keeping Heliolisk alive is chip damage, for some reason...? It has 62/52/94 bulk, and while it does have a nice set of immunities, Heliolisk will not last very long against much of the tier. Passive recovery would mean a lot more to Heliolisk if a bunch of things couldn't just OHKO it through that recovery.



Yikes, that's overspecialized. Honestly, if you're that dedicated to answering Manaphy, just put some SpD EVs on an Unaware+Magic Guard Clefable and set up on it. You'll have a reliable Manaphy answer that can actually check a bunch of other threatening things and potentially sweep in its own right. 252 HP / 96+ SpD will do the trick even against Surf Manaphy.
Don forget that electrify + lightning rod totally invalidates anything slower than Helios that lacks priority or speed boosting moves, so it messes with a big chunk of the meta.

Personally I've found thick fat amoongus to be the most reliable check. Giga drain + clear smog scares it off, and only psychic will really hurt
 
Fair enough, stall teams have solid ways of dealing with Dragonite. I'm mostly speaking from experience with balancier teams. Honestly, does offense have many options for solid checks outside of Weavile and Sand Rush Tyranitar? Tyranitar's really solid but I've always found Weavile to be sort of underwhelming in any role other than taking out Dragonite since it doesn't have strong dark STAB in this meta and with a refrigerate set it's devoting half its moveset and it's item slot to weak ice priority. And so many things in this meta outspeed it. And obviously it can't switch in so you're sacking something to get it in.
Er. 125 Speed is completely ridiculous and with Scarf being essentially unused, Weavile only really has to worry about Dragon Dancers (And some of the Speed Boosters, but most of them are actually too slow to outspeed it after just one turn and they very often open with Protect anyway, so they hate Feint) 99% of the time. Otherwise it handily outspeeds essentially everything in the meta. It can be tricky to switch in directly, of course, but U-turn/Volt Switch support can get it in just fine, and offense loves those moves anyway. The loss of competent Dark STAB is a nuisance, but honestly Slowbro is the only wall I've found likes to switch into Weavile that would be scared to try in OU.

Sandstream Excadrill is also a decent check to Aerilate Dragonite and is very popular, Levitate Magnezone tends to shrug off Dragonite's attacks and then Volt Switch in a better answer having broken Multiscale, Dragonite dislikes offensive pressure in general (It's not actually that hard-hitting with Extreme Speed -a number of Pokemon can tank an unboosted hit and retaliate), and Levitate Heatran (Which I have absolutely seen on offense teams) laughs at Dragonite in general, bar Superpower. (Which is uncommon)

According to Bulbapedia, Hustle lowers the accuracy of physical moves by 20%, not 1/3.
/shrug

No Guard is still better.

Ghoul King
On mobile, so quoting is a pain.

Primordial sea heliolisk might have trouble with +3 manaphy, but lightning rod heliolisk does not. A set with electrify / thunder / psych up / hyper voice can beat any common manaphy variant. Tail glow sets get electrified, while calm mind versions get their stats stolen. All this while letting you use a better primordial sea Pokemon.
... oh goddammit another Lightning Rod Heliolisk meta.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Ghoul King
On mobile, so quoting is a pain.

Primordial sea heliolisk might have trouble with +3 manaphy, but lightning rod heliolisk does not. A set with electrify / thunder / psych up / hyper voice can beat any common manaphy variant. Tail glow sets get electrified, while calm mind versions get their stats stolen. All this while letting you use a better primordial sea Pokemon.
Mold Breaker sets can still attack you. I'm not entirely sure how this would effect the Tail Glow though. Not all Manaphy sets run Primordial Sea.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Er. 125 Speed is completely ridiculous and with Scarf being essentially unused, Weavile only really has to worry about Dragon Dancers (And some of the Speed Boosters, but most of them are actually too slow to outspeed it after just one turn and they very often open with Protect anyway, so they hate Feint) 99% of the time. Otherwise it handily outspeeds essentially everything in the meta. It can be tricky to switch in directly, of course, but U-turn/Volt Switch support can get it in just fine, and offense loves those moves anyway. The loss of competent Dark STAB is a nuisance, but honestly Slowbro is the only wall I've found likes to switch into Weavile that would be scared to try in OU.

Sandstream Excadrill is also a decent check to Aerilate Dragonite and is very popular, Levitate Magnezone tends to shrug off Dragonite's attacks and then Volt Switch in a better answer having broken Multiscale, Dragonite dislikes offensive pressure in general (It's not actually that hard-hitting with Extreme Speed -a number of Pokemon can tank an unboosted hit and retaliate), and Levitate Heatran (Which I have absolutely seen on offense teams) laughs at Dragonite in general, bar Superpower. (Which is uncommon)



/shrug

No Guard is still better.



... oh goddammit another Lightning Rod Heliolisk meta.
noguard is better if your running stone edge, otherwise compoundeyes is actually way better, as they do the same thing, except durant can miss fire blasts, hydro pumps, and wisps. a small change, but its basically the ONLY difference.

so if stone edge-no guard, anything else, compoundeyes is flat out better.
 
Weavile only really has to worry about Dragon Dancers (And some of the Speed Boosters, but most of them are actually too slow to outspeed it after just one turn and they very often open with Protect anyway, so they hate Feint) 99% of the time. Otherwise it handily outspeeds essentially everything in the meta.
Have you played this meta? There's stuff faster than Weavile literally everywhere. Mainly weather sweepers. Sand Rush+Sand Stream Tyranitar / Excadrill, Desolate Land+Chlorophyll Venusaur / Victreebel, Swift Swim / Primordial Sea Kingdra / Kabutops / Ludicolo / you name it. Apparently somebody's using Chlorophyll Ninetales although I'm pretty skeptical about that set in this meta given the prevalence of the "harsh" weathers. But yeah. Even discounting Speed Boost and dragon dancers, Weavile is outsped routinely.

I've actually been using Delta Stream Tornadus-T (No weaknesses! Yay!) to try to deal with basically all of these weather sweepers including Manaphy at once. Has anybody else tried using Delta Stream?
 
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Suspect 1.2 - I sea through your disguise

Don't let the name fool you, the Manaphy suspect is controversial. It's ability to combine Hydration + Primordial sea to become a fear some sweeper with instant, no downside recovery. This puts stall in a truly tough position because it's immensely difficult to kill. Usual checks to Manaphy, like Amoongus, Chansey or Ferrothorn, now struggle just to break through this defensive and offensive behemoth. Status wont help you and widdling it wont help you. Manaphy is a true blockade for stall. However, this leads to resorting to more unconventional counters - such as Heliolisk, Desolate Land Heatran or Dry Skin Excadrill. However, they all lack reliable recovery or have other significant downsides to them. So we're suspecting Manaphy. Discussion should be mostly focused around Manaphy for the upcoming days!

How can I vote?

If you reach top 15 on the Enchanted Items ladder, you will be able to vote. You can vote by screenshotting yourself on the ladder, then post on my profile with the link and your decision. To bad Manaphy we need a 60% majority by July ninth!

Good luck :]

Suspect song

 
Last edited:

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
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Suspect 1.2 - I sea through your disguise

Don't let the name fool you, the Manaphy suspect is controversial. It's ability to combine Hydration + Primordial sea to become a fear some sweeper with instant, no downside recovery. This puts stall in a truly tough position because it's immensely difficult to kill. Usual checks to Manaphy, like Amoongus, Chansey or Ferrothorn, now struggle just to break through this defensive and offensive behemoth. Status wont help you and widdling it wont help you. Manaphy is a true blockade for stall. However, this leads to resorting to more unconventional counters - such as Heliolisk, Desolate Land Heatran or Dry Skin Excadrill. However, they all lack reliable recovery or have other significant downsides to them. So we're suspecting Manaphy. Discussion should be mostly focused around Manaphy for the upcoming days!

How can I vote?

If you reach top 15 on the Enchanted Items ladder, you will be able to vote. You can vote by screenshotting yourself on the ladder, then post on my profile with the link and your decision. To bad Manaphy we need a 60% majority by July ninth!

Good luck :]

Suspect song

Just popping in to say Banaphy.

Way too much adjustable, a huge threat against all archetypes. Will edit this later when I get reqs but just wanted to get my joke in first. :P
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Here's something I've been messing around with to good success:


Mienshao @ Dusk Ball
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Drain Punch

I was looking around for different things to do Dusk Ball pass with but faced the issue of passers not being able to pass multiple times without Leftovers. This is when I remembered that Regenerator existed, so I searched the teambuilder for everything with BP+Regen and the only things which came up were Mienfoo and Mienshao. With it's naturally high speed stat, access to STAB Drain Punch and interesting set of resistances compared to Figy Berry Scolipede (namely a resistance to Stealth Rock and, by extension, Rock-type attacks) I decided to try it and it has been surprisingly consistent. It doesn't have any difficulty passing multiple times during the match due to Regenerator, and it's naturally high speed stat means it doesn't have a hard time getting outpacing the entire unboosted metagame after a single boost. For reference, the listed EVs outpace everything slower than Mega Alakazam at +1, although more speed can be run to beat base 100s or Garchomp before a boost, and with 248 HP EVs it hits a Regenerator number. The EVs are very much customisable to the needs of the team (you can bolster your Drain Punch by taking out of HP, you can increase your speed to outpace more before a boost or you could even run more defense). I think the key drawback of speedpass in this meta is that priority is fucking everywhere, meaning that even boosted you can have a really hard time breaking large portions of teams.
 

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