Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[Jaroda]

Nominating

Seismitoad for C+

Frankly, Seismitoad offers a LOT more team support than its peers in C like Tentacruel or Jellicent. It's a great SR setter that can actually be a real hassle for Defog users like Latios, Skarmory and Zapdos between Scald and Knock Off, and it threatens spinners like Excadrill and Starmie. It's a free switch into any Thunder Wave or Scald, meaning it's also a great switch into Rotom-W and standard Volcanion. I also recommend Icy Wind or Bulldoze on sets to put pressure on offensive switch ins, leaving them more vulnerable to revenge killers on your side.

 

[Acamm130]

There are two mons that I really want to touch upon. The first is magneton. Frankly, I always end up switching scarf zone out for scarf magneton because it still checks what zone checks and traps the same things while being able to outspeed torn and weavile. While I will admit that it is not as good of a trapper as zone because of the power loss, it is still important to note that scarf is not an amazing trapper either as zone gets stalled out by leech seed protect ferrothorn and fails to ohko bulky variants of mega scizor (who commonly carry superpower to hit keld neutrally and check steels who resist its other stab move, bullet punch). I feel like the speed that magneton offers makes it a better option for a scarfed steel trapper and should move up to AT LEAST C.

The bext mon is a nom of my own...
Mega Charizard X A -> A-
I don't know how well receives this nom will be but considering the meta at the moment, I feel A- is a better fit. The first thing I want to bring up is that electrics are on the decline which makes Xard's nich as an electric check less relevant considering the two most viable electrics hamper it (rotom-w just volts out as zard tries to switch in and set up on it or paralyses is as I have seen more and more thunder wave rotoms as of recently. Thundy also prevents it from setting up thanks to prankster twave). Another point is that helmet lando has really taken over as the bulky ground of choice causing zard to take mass amounts of damage attacking and setting up rocks as it zard swaps out. Tyranitar is also everywhere and makes quick work of xard as all vadiants live a hit at +1 bar eq. Finally, the biggest point against it is that Hazard removers are really struggling right now with the abundance of pursuit trappers running around so it goes without saying that Xard is really screwed as it needs hazard support to function to its full potential. I know that surf latios is on the rise whick lures heatran and tyranitar but band tar still lives one and scarf tar still outspeeds causing a 50/50 between pursuit and crunch. Zard is still a very threatening sweeper but with current trends, it is better suited to A-.

 

[Martin]

I don't like Magneton much tbh. A big part of the problem with it is that a lot of the things which commonly get paired with trappers (namely in reference to Mega Diancie, but also a handful of other 'mons) don't actually need the extra speed that Magneton has due to not struggling with the things which Magneton outpaces over Magnezone. The key issue here is that Magneton simply isn't a very good trapper; it is weak (for example, fat Mega Scizor takes the hit, Superpowers or U-turns and still has enough health to Roost up later whereas versus Magnezone it is going to be hard-pressed to find an opportunity to Roost up again), and when you also consider that while Scarf Magnezone may not outright KO everything it is able to significantly cripple them to the point where they aren't going to be coming back onto the field in the match outside of completely incompetent play on the Magnezone player's part. The extra power really comes in handy for this, as scarf Magnezone's key goal as a trapper is to get the target to the point where they may as well be dead rather than outright KOing them. And for what it's worth, uninvested Scizor isn't killing you from full with Superpower whereas Magneton gets outright OHKOed, meaning that it's consistency is helped by the extra bulk allowing it to take on Mega Scizor more consistently. If you think Ferrothorn is outstalling Magnezone I don't know what to say--not to mention that the last time I saw a Protect Ferrothorn was way back in January. And while the extra speed is nice for Weavile the fact is that if you are using it as your sole check to it your build probably needs work, because if Magneton is your only answer then it is going to get a kill every time it comes in, and the extra speed also fails to help it improve the team's matchup v.s. Lopunny which generally mauls offense, meaning that cases where the extra speed provides utility over the extra power are few and far-between.

 

[MrAldo]

Many people seem to understimate how important the extra speed is on Magneton. First, the power difference is actually not that big between Magneton and Magnezone (120 SpA vs 130 SpA). Just gonna make a comparison between scarf sets cause thats the only way to compare them under a vacuum, comparing it with specs damage would be stupid.

252 SpA Magneton Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Mega Scizor: 188-224 (54.8 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Mega Scizor: 200-236 (58.3 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Magneton Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 192-228 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 204-240 (57.9 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Probably not the best defensive mega scizor, just made it the bulkiest possible variant for comparison.

For me taking the damage would be Scizor or Ferrothorn not being 2hkod at worst but thats not the case for either of the magnets. The main reason to use magnezone is the possibility of using specs and a scarf user (although isnt exactly the best but yeah) is having better bulk to actually switch into fairy attacks.

The speed is extremely important I have to say again cause stuff like regular zam (prior mega evolving even), monsters like tornadus-therian with life orb being so ridiculously threatening, weavile being so good and talonflame are all relevant benchmarks that are really threatening for the type of teams you will see magneton on. Obviously it wouldnt be your main and only check to the stuff I mentioned, thats stupid, but it provides an emergency response to these threats. Keldeo + Magnezone would seem solid but those despite losing their items, and magnezone cant outspeed with a scarf so magneton would be the most optimal choice.

Im not even sure if Magneton got nommed for anything at all, lol, but with tornadus-t and weavile around it should stay ranked. Just though I should add that.

Edit: Got notified that Magneton got nommed to go up to C rank. So yeah, I actually agree with that, it is most practical than anything in C-. C is fine.

Not sure if I agree with the mega charizard nom but I could into that later.

 

[Gary]

I think Scarf Magnezone is trash to be honest, and the only time I'll ever use it is if I'm in need of a trapper + my team is extraordinarily weak to Mega Diancie offense. I think the biggest advantage Magnezone has and half the reason why its Scarf set is even used, is because of its usable bulk, which lets it switch into Diamond Storms, Moonblasts, Outrages, Brave Birds, Stone Edges, and even Draco Meteors if it has to. Yeah sure switching into most of these Pokemon blindly can be bad for Zone because they usually have something to hit it with, but it at least gives your team a bit more defensive synergy in tight situations, and it doesn't force you to always have to find free switch-ins as it can stomach some hits. Magneton is frail as shit, as Latios' Draco Meteor can do upwards of 90% to it, and any of its coverage moves even Surf can either KO it or do comparable damage. Even Mega Diancie is almost 2HKOing it with all of its moves, so it absolutely has to switch into it for free. Even if you look at the most common Scarfers atm, namely Lando-T, Tyranitar, Keldeo, and Jirachi, they all have some sort of defensive utility which makes them useful outside of just pure revenge killing. Magneton is frail as shit, and outside of the few Pokemon it's useful for revenging, it's just really hard to justify using it over a better revenge killer, because I think I'd rather just use Specs Zone + something that can deal with the aftermentioned threats Magneton is meant to revenge. It also kind of sucks that it can't even kill AV Torn-T with T-Bolt after SR, and an un-invested Heat Wave can KO back with just a tiny bit of residual. Most it can do against Zam is break the Sash with Volt but regular Zam is pretty irrelevant anyway and I'd rather just use LO.

The Speed is nice but it's not like we are killing for Talon checks atm, Mega Gyarados is on the steady decline (another Pokemon it can't reliably revenge either), and it can't even reliably check a healthy Torn-T when AV is still very common. Weavile is like the only thing it actually seems to do a decent job at checking, but any smart player is just going to switch out vs Magneton 99% of the time because it's the most obvious Scarf user in the tier. I guess it can move up to C because C- is full of VERY niche Pokemon and Magneton can kind of compress the revenge killer + trapper role into one, but it's still such a subpar Pokemon and Magnezone is usually always going to be the superior option.

 

[Seth_]

I don't really think that gardevoir should drop yet. It is threatening wallbreaker which can 2HKO almost everything and what it can't 2HKO it still can burn. I don't really see any solid argument for drop. It's same speed like medicham, it also has some power but it has better special bulk. With minimum investment clef can't destroy substitute. Torn-t can't really do anything.

I don't think that gardevoir needs like 6 slots or so. Whenever I run both blast and wisp I have no problem. Psyshock is not really nessesary since it only hits amoongus and venusaur (both aren't really popular and both are destroyd by torn-t which enjoys being paired with gardevoir for other reasons). I don't think that taut is good since without calm mind+psyshock you don't beat chansey alone anyway and not many thing really can stall you out with recovery (maybe skarm, but you still can burn that). If you really don't want to get t-wave or anything run substitute with some investment since biggest status spammers (rotom/clef) have hard time beating your sub anyway.

Gardevoir is undoubtedly great wallbreaker and huge nonsense to many teams due to it's speed, power and ability to burn it's checks.

 

[Gary]

Zard-Y is so fucking sexy right now oml. Like it's funny that people were talking about dropping it a few weeks ago, and I still just don't really see why. Looking at all the common meta trends right now, with fat Grass-types running around, Rotom-W being everywhere, and defensive cores like Clefable, Suicune, Heatran, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Lando-T just get completely dumped on by it, Zard-Y is better than it's been in a while. Everyone goes on and on about how it's so linear and it requires you to put it on a really specific build, but if you really think about it, most of the Pokemon that are used on Zard-Y builds are top tier threats that you'd use with most other Pokemon. CB and Scarf T-tar are amazing right now, because it just Pursuit traps anything that bothers Zard-Y. Its SR weakness is the only major hindrance really, because its Speed is good enough to where it can outspeed all of the Pokemon it wants to kill and its SpD stat is good enough to where it can take hits if need be, like Specs Scald from Keldeo in the Sun. It's a huge pain in the ass to so many builds right now and with smart play it has practically zero reliable switch-ins that don't risk being trapped by T-tar. The amount of pressure it applies on teams is definitely comparable to Mega Medicham because you just have to play so smart around it or else it will just drop something every time it comes in. Of course Mega Medi has no SR weakness, priority, and fits on more builds, so it wouldn't make sense to raise Zard-Y. I think it fits pretty well with Mega Pinsir, Mega Heracross, and Mega Zam because all three have the potential to just smash through fat teams but need support to do it.

Speaking of Mega Latias, the more I've used it/faced it, the more I just really dislike it. It's so fucking passive even with CM because it needs multiple boosts to really hurt anything with all these fat Pokemon running around, and it MUST run Psyshock with CM or else it's going to be complete Clefable bait, and even than T-wave is terrible for it. It's just so pressured to take on so many Pokemon, and unfortunately most of the Pokemon it's meant to wall such as Zard-Y, Keldeo, Volcanion, Manaphy, and Rotom-W are all usually paired with Tyranitar, which it can't really do anything to unless packing T-wave, and it still risks being fucked up by Crunch or a Banded Stone Edge, so T-tar will still accomplish its job. Even Weavile is a pain in the ass for it, because only a complete savage is going to stay in and go for a weak D-Pulse or a T-wave and potentially take a Icicle Crash or a Banded Knock to the dome. I honestly wouldn't even use any other set other than CM, because otherwise you let some of the most common/threatening Pokemon in the game come in for free, which is especially scary seeing how most Mega Lati builds just get 6-0ed by Mega Heracross. I think a drop is definitely in its future if this keeps up, because the metagame is just really unfavorable for it right now with how it can't wall THAT much reliably with T-tar running around and it's just too passive without a few boosts under its belt. As a defensive sweeper, I can't really see it being better than Suicune atm, which blanket checks half the tier and isn't nearly as easy to punish because broken Scald.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Small nitpick but most arguments around Mega Diancie involve Magnezone support. Shouldn't Diancie by this logic drop to Magnezone's tier (B+)? I mean sure, it's not totally dependent on Magnezone but it's only really A+ with Magnezone support - otherwise many of its flaws come into play (being threatened by Ferrothorn/Scizor and forced out, Jirachi OHKOes, Skarm forces out and sets up easily)... HP Fire doesn't even hit most Steels that hard tbh.

 

[Martin]

You act as if Mag is mandatory support when it's probably easier than ever to put it on teams /without/ Mag support. Max attack with HP fire is the best variant atm, which has no difficulty with Skarmory (Diamond Storm has a good chance to 2HKO SpD after rocks, HP Fire 2HKOs PhysDef. Heatran gets chunked by Diamond Storm, meaning you don't need Earth Power for it, and due to this it can carry HP Fire for Scizor and Ferrothorn with impunity. What makes Dian so good is that you can just so easily splash it onto teams nowadays due to how good an offensive typing rock is combined with it's extremely useful utility due to what it checks and the way it pressures hazards. The fact you think that the best mega in the game (possibly aside from Scizor, depending on who you ask (I lean towards Dian)) should drop to B+ with Mag as your justification makes not sense at all imo.

 

[Gary]

Small nitpick but most arguments around Mega Diancie involve Magnezone support. Shouldn't Diancie by this logic drop to Magnezone's tier (B+)? I mean sure, it's not totally dependent on Magnezone but it's only really A+ with Magnezone support - otherwise many of its flaws come into play (being threatened by Ferrothorn/Scizor and forced out, Jirachi OHKOes, Skarm forces out and sets up easily)... HP Fire doesn't even hit most Steels that hard tbh.

Lol come on bro you've been on here longer than most people and you don't really know how the VR works by now? If we used that logic for everything the whole VR would be complete wack. You could say Clefable wouldn't be S without Pokemon such as Rotom-W or Lando-T because otherwise it just loses to most Steel-types like Jirachi, Excadrill, or Heatran unless running really niche sets. We don't look at Pokemon in a vacuum, team support is huge in determining a Pokemon's viability. The opportunity cost of using Zone + Mega Diancie is low because with trapping support Mega Diancie is a LOT harder to deal with because it doesn't have to predict with HP Fire, and with the freedom to run Earth Power it can always OHKO Heatran and opposing Magnezone as well as smacking Nidoking and Mega Metagross very hard. You don't have to use Magnezone for Mega Diancie to be good, and if anyone is actually saying that than they clearly aren't experience enough with it, because while Zone is a good partner, there are a lot better ones out there. Mega Diancie is such a good Pokemon that using a more niche Pokemon such as Zone to make it even more threatening is well worth the team slot, but most teams definitely don't need Zone support in dealing with Steel-types, because outside of Jirachi, Skarmory, and Mega Metagross (which Zone can't really trap anyway) there's not too many of them that can reliably switch into it fearing an HP Fire or Diamond Storm in Heatran's case.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Lol come on bro you've been on here longer than most people and you don't really know how the VR works by now? If we used that logic for everything the whole VR would be complete wack. You could say Clefable wouldn't be S without Pokemon such as Rotom-W or Lando-T because otherwise it just loses to most Steel-types like Jirachi, Excadrill, or Heatran unless running really niche sets. We don't look at Pokemon in a vacuum, team support is huge in determining a Pokemon's viability. The opportunity cost of using Zone + Mega Diancie is low because with trapping support Mega Diancie is a LOT harder to deal with because it doesn't have to predict with HP Fire, and with the freedom to run Earth Power it can always OHKO Heatran and opposing Magnezone as well as smacking Nidoking and Mega Metagross very hard. You don't have to use Magnezone for Mega Diancie to be good, and if anyone is actually saying that than they clearly aren't experience enough with it, because while Zone is a good partner, there are a lot better ones out there. Mega Diancie is such a good Pokemon that using a more niche Pokemon such as Zone to make it even more threatening is well worth the team slot, but most teams definitely don't need Zone support in dealing with Steel-types, because outside of Jirachi, Skarmory, and Mega Metagross (which Zone can't really trap anyway) there's not too many of them that can reliably switch into it fearing an HP Fire or Diamond Storm in Heatran's case.

Haven't really been here lately so...

What I want to point out is that most arguments that I see around A+ Mega Diancie involve Magnezone in one way or another, but not for other stuff that would LOVE it around (e.g. Latios, SD Weavile) which sit in A+ or A. However with Diancie I just read that argument on last page and it basically goes on about how Mega Diancie is so threatening with Magnezone support.

 

[bludz]

One of the main differences between Diancie now and a year ago is how much it needed Zone. Last year they were commonly paired together, but Diancie is extremely threatening standalone right now. To the point that its viability is hardly reliant on Zone whatsoever.

 

[Martin]

The key difference between Diancie and a lot of other things which appreciate Mag support, at least in my opinion, is that Dian is both extremely self sufficient and difficult to take advantage of without consideration of Mag. If you take the Latios example you used, it is very self sufficient but gets taken advantage of by the extremely popular Tyranitar and Weavile who both consistently trap it with Pursuit. SD Weavile would much rather have something to help overwhelm it's checks such as Lopunny or Bisharp while also being weak to SR, quickly worn down by LO and reliant on the ability to both set up on it's extremely poor bulk and to have everything in range of the appropriate attack to avoid being KOed back. Dragonite is dependent on SR being removed from the field to set up consistently, DD Altaria suffers from being overly reliant on Magnezone to do it's job (it's completely non-self-sufficient) as a DD sweeper, and other FairyMags suffer either from being exploitable due to either their bulk/speed combination (Mega Gardevoir, Gardevoir) or their lack of coverage (Sylveon). Diancie isn't weak to Pursuit like Latios, doesn't get hazards laid on it with impunity by Steel-type switch-ins (it's a 50:50 between laying a hazard predicting the switch and attacking it with Iron Head/Gyro Ball due to Magic Bounce--not to mention that non-Iron Head Skarmory can't even touch it+eventually dies to either HP Fire or an EP on it's Roost) and is just very difficult for a lot of builds to deal with to the point of it being just a step above a lot of other 'mons while just being very splashable due to it not being reliant on Mag and having good utility in general due to it's sweet set of resistances and Magic Bounce to soft check hazards.

 

[BuzzkillAmpharos]

A- to B+

I think the Mega Latias hype is done. Even when it was at the height of its popularity I never really found myself turning to this thing. Especially with T Tar everywhere and even though it can break through teams it needs way too many boosts to do this. You would look at its typing and think it is a premier Mega Medicham check until you realize this thing is straight up 2HKO'd by Ice Punch. And while it can punch holes in frailer teams, it never gets to do that because it is always threatened by something, namely Weavile, Mega Diancie, and T Tar.

Mega Latias also would be a good sand check if it weren't for Tyranitar. And Pursuit from band Tar 2HKOs this thing even if it stays in. And if its scarf Tar then Crunch easily 2HKOs this thing. This thing just loses to so many things right now and although it has a ton of defensive utility, it can never take advantage of that because something that destroys it is right around the corner. Dragon Pulse hits like a pebble without any boosts, and fatter teams love it. Not to mention this thing's worst nightmare is getting toxiced. The moment it gets Toxiced this things defensive utility shoots down to almost zero. It can't wall much and it has trouble setting up because it is on a timer.

Psyshock is almost mandatory right now as well. Clefable is only one of the various examples of how this thing is complete bait for many Pokemon without Psyshock. And it is absolutely never a good thing to be complete set up bait for the best mon in the meta game. I also would like to point out that this thing pretty much has to run Roost or otherwise it gets worn down very, very quickly. This means Mega Latias is also confined to pretty much running Dragon Pulse, Psyshock, Calm Mind, and Roost. So, this thing is pretty much walled by Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Heatran, and a ton of other staples nowadays. That's not a good thing, and even if you choose to forgo Calm Mind and run some defensive set, then you pretty much have a total of 0 offensive presence. With these recent trends and the lack of a good set other than Calm Mind for Mega Latias(that set also has its flaws), I think I agree with Gary and I say this thing should drop.

 

[AM]

CM m-lati and reflect type m-lati are the sets you should be using anyways, more keen on that or just a 3 attack set ran similarly to latios. Also where is this justification on using psyshock coming from? Its not like you're ever winning the matchup against clef if thats the reason people are claiming and it already has tools to beat keld to. It runs most of its coverage moves such as surf and tbolt effectively. B+ for m-lati is underselling it.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

I want to bring up my personal opinion on Magneton at the moment. I know I'm well known for having the unpopular opinion from time to time, but firmly believe that Magneton doesn't need much of a rise and, in its current stance, would never see the light above C neutral.

Don't get me wrong, however. No matter how many times it seems that I insult this Pokemon (even lumping it with the more unimaginative designs in Gen 1 along with Jynx, Muk, Electrode--which I actually like--and Farfetch'd), I do enjoy Magneton, but prefer its welcomed evolution more so. I'm not blind as to why Magneton is useful; this is a Pokemon with barely less bulk and Special Attack, but boasting a slightly higher speed to make up for it, which means wonders for Revenge Killing faster threats...or does it? What Pokemon do many claim it can remove?

Tornadus-T is almost certainly going to be seen as an Assault Vest pivot. On top of that, it's also the bulkiest on the Special Side it can be. How bad is it, anyways?
252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 204-242 (63.1 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magneton Volt Switch vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 158-188 (48.9 - 58.2%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO

Okay, so without Stealth Rock, Magneton does seem to threaten Tornadus-T with relative ease, right? Well, there are four problems with this, a problem for each most likely move.

First and foremost, Hurricane missing isn't the only 30% chance the move has. One will have to take into consideration the confusion chances if Magneton switches in.

Secondly, Tornadus-T almost always runs Knock Off. It doesn't do TOO much damage, but it is enough to, at the very least, cripple Magneton if it decides to stay in (Thunderbolt instead of Volt Switch, attempting to go for the guaranteed 2HKO). Once Choice Scarf is out, you might as well be playing with a worse Magnezone. This is the boon of Magnezone; even if you remove Choice Specs, it has good enough bulk and Special Attack to make up for the item loss. With Magneton, you're so dependent on your held item that Knock Off might as well be considered a check. Item dependent Pokemon are ranked lower for a reason, though I would argue that the higher ranked Pokemon aren't very dependent on their held item. If their item is Knocked Off, they can normally continue with their job, even if it is hindered. As an example, Latios is still fast without Choice Scarf, Ferrothorn and TankChomp still have Iron Barbs/Rough Skin to deal some form of physical punishment, and I'd even argue that Choice Band Terrakion laughs at the face of anything using Knock Off thanks to its ability Justified.

Third, U-Turn. Okay, so Magneton switches in, okay? What if the Tornadus-T user forsees this and just U-Turns out into Excadrill or other check, giving a Pokemon completely free time to set up on the trimagnet? Tornadus-T is a pivot for a reason; many of the best pivots (bar Amoonguss) have access to U-Turn or Volt Switch to keep their own momentum going, and this situation is absolutely no exception. Granted, you could say the same about any Tornadus-T check, but I believe that none suffer more than Magneton.

Fourth and finally, what is Magneton going to do against Superpower? Did everybody forget that Superpower is run almost every time? A Knock Off+Superpower or even 2 Superpowers is guaranteed to be a 2HKO.

Using the situational possibilities above, I have come to a few possibilities about what would happen in Tornadus-T vs a switching in Magneton and reasoning as to why Magneton cannot afford to check a healthy Tornadus-T. To assume the common scenarios, both sides have Stealth Rock set up and Tornadus-T will be at 75% HP, or 243/323 (25% of 323 is 80.75, 80 rounded down), while Magneton will sit at 93.75% HP, or 226/241 (6.25% of 241 is 15.0625, 15 rounded down). If anything, Stealth Rock up gives Magneton an advantage, so consider this my nicest way of showing what would happen against Tornadus-T.

Some Likely Matchup Situations

Situation 1: Hurricane gone wrong

Turn 1: Magneton switches into Hurricane and it misses. There is a 30% chance of it happening, but the possibility still exists.

Turn 2: Magneton outspeeds Tornadus-T and uses Thunderbolt, dealing 63.1 - 74.9%. On one side, this could deal 204 damage minimum, and on the other, 242 maximum, leaving Tornadus-T anywhere between 39/323 or 1/323! Tornadus-T user has one of three options.

Turn 2A: Tornadus-T uses U-Turn, switching into a reliable check and healing from Regenerator, Best case, 146/323, worst case, 108/323. This is a middle ground situation; if the Tornadus-T user is able to remove Magneton from the equation (and hopefully Stealth Rock), Tornadus-T can eventually return to the field but not at full health. One would have to bring it in against a weakened (and slower), foe.

Turn 2B: Tornadus-T uses Superpower, dealing 74.6 - 87.9%, or 180-212. Best case for Magneton, 46/241, worst case 16/241. In this situation, Magneton still outspeeds Tornadus-T and would have the ability to KO it, though leaving it down for the count and unable to retaliate. Even if it switches out and back in, Stealth Rock would knock another 15 HP out, leaving Magneton between 31/241 and 1/241 (Peck kills it).

Turn 2C: Tornadus-T uses Knock Off, removing Magneton's Choice Scarf and dealing 30.2 - 35.6%, or 73-86. Best case for Magneton 173/241, worst case 140/241 This makes Tornadus-T outspeed Magneton next turn.

Turn 3C: Tornadus-T uses Superpower, finishing the foe off, but still leaving it crippled. Even Regenerator won't be able to do much and, since Superpower left Tornadus-T physically weaker, leaves it open to be Pursuit trapped.

Situation 2: Hurricane Hits, no Confusion

Turn 1: Magneton switches into Hurricane and it hits, dealing 20.3 - 24%, or 49-58. Best case for Magneton 177/241, worst case 168/241.

From here, however, it follows a similar path of the above situation, except that Superpower becomes a guaranteed KO.

Situation 3: Hurricane Hits, Confusion

Turn 1: Magneton switches into Hurricane and it hits, dealing 20.3 - 24%, or 49-58. Best case for Magneton 177/241, worst case 168/241. Magneton is also inflicted with confusion that it cannot cure.

From here, it could follow Situation 2 (which follows Situation 1), or it gets worse and Magneton hits itself in confusion, causing it to be cropped from Knock Off, KO'd from Superpower, or allowing a no-risk switch into a more reliable check. This is hax based and it is in the Tornadus-T user's favor. If Magneton hits itself in confusion, Tornadus-T potentially has full health on the switch, whether from U-Turn on the spot or Superpower KO.

Situation 4: U-Turn on the switch

Turn 1: Magneton switches into a U-Turn, dealing 10.7 - 12.8%, dealing 26-31 damage. Best case for Magneton, 200/241, worst case 195/241. Tornadus-T can now switch out into a reliable check, leaving Magneton KO'd or out of the field. Tornadus-T is also now at full health because of Regenerator.

Situation 5: Knock Off on the switch

Turn 1: Magneton switches into Knock Off, removing Magneton's Choice Scarf and dealing 30.2 - 35.6%, or 73-86. Best case for Magneton 173/241, worst case 140/241 This makes Tornadus-T outspeed Magneton next turn, leading to either a U-Turn or Superpower, either one Magneton would despise, as U-Turn gives a check a free switch in and Superpower KOs the magnet group.

Situation 6: Superpower on the switch

Turn 1: Magneton switches into a Superpower (not sure why this would happen, but it's a small possibility), dealing 74.6 - 87.9%, or 180-212. Best case for Magneton, 46/241, worst case 16/241. The smart Tornadus-T player would switch out (not U-Turn) into a check and let it do its job, anyways.

I bring all of this up because a check is supposed to reliably switch into and threaten a Pokemon, offensive or defensively, while not bringing itself too much harm in the process (if we're following the strictest sense of the word, as a counter would be able to switch in no matter what and threaten without/with barely any damage done). Every situation above has Magneton either crippled or KO'd, not the qualities of a reliable check if you ask me. If you want to talk about the qualities of Magneton, I'd say that it's best to talk about it as a Revenge Killer, since Magneton has the KOing and outspeeding capabilities, but almost none when it comes to switching into the foe. With that said, I am sick and tired of people saying that Magneton and Magnezone check the same amount of Pokemon. Let's see how they fare against OU, shall we?

Can Magnezone and Magneton Check the Same?

Amoonguss

0 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 82-98 (29.1 - 34.8%) -- 9.2% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 102-120 (42.3 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Azumarill

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 106-126 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magneton: 124-147 (51.4 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bisharp <3

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 177-211 (62.9 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magneton: 208-247 (86.3 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Breloom <3

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 226-268 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magneton: 265-315 (109.9 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Chansey

Don't make me laugh. Both are destroyed in 3 Seismic Tosses and can barely even do anything back.

Charizard

You serious?

Clefable

Won't post calculation here. Though Magneton takes more damage, it's only a 4HKO, while both magnets threaten a 2HKO back.

Mega Diancie

A Pokemon with Earth Power and you expect either to switch in?

Dragonite

A Pokemon commonly seen with Earthquake and you expect either to switch in?

Excadrill

u wot m8

Ferrothorn

Same situation as Clefable, though either one has to watch out for Leech Seed (though, to be fair, both of them are at least immune to Thunder Wave).

Garchomp

*Laughs in Pokemon*

Mega Gardevoir

Both suck against Focus Blast, but...

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 123-145 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO (67.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 151-178 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gengar <3

Life above, both are dead against Focus Miss, however...

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 187-220 (66.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 230-270 (95.4 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)

Gliscor <3

Earthquake says hi.

Heatran <3

Lava Plume, Magma Storm, Earth Power. Pick your poison.

Hippowdon

Earthquake. Enough said.

Jirachi

252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 148-175 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO (55.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
252 Atk Jirachi Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magneton: 142-168 (58.9 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Thunderbolt is also doing more damage than Hidden Power Fire AND Jirachi with Choice Scarf laughs at these two.

Keldeo

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magneton: 288-342 (119.5 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This says nothing about if Keldeo runs Choice Specs, when even Scald OHKOs Magneton!

Kyurem-Black <3

Earth Power.

Landorus-Therian

Say what?

Latios

Magneton risks a 2HKO from Draco meteor (yes, this is including the drop immediately after the move) and doesn't have much back to dish out.

Latias

I'd say that both suck. Latias uses Healing Wish and brings in a check back to full health.

Mega Lopunny

Silly Lopunny. Kicks are for ribs.

Manaphy

More backstory with this one.
Magnezone has a 93.5% chance to OHKO Manaphy after Stealth Rock, with Magneton still boasting a 62.5% chance. The catch? Both get OHKO'd by a +3 Scald, so either would have to switch in immediately or risk being taken out.

Mega Manectric

252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 222-262 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 272-320 (112.8 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Did I forget to mention that Manectric outspeeds both? With Choice Scarf, Magnezone hits 360 while Magneton hits 393, but Manectric has a Speed of 405 with Timid. What happened to that extra speed, Magneton?

Mega Medicham

Hi Jump Kick, Drain Punch, and I've used a Substitute+Focus Punch set. Take your pick.

Mega Metagross

Earthquake and Hammer Arm. Pick one.

Mew

Not only does Mew have Knock Off to cripple Magneton (and potentially Magnezone), but it also has Will-O-Wisp, enough bulk to survive any three hits, and Softboiled for reliable recovery.

252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 109-129 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Mega Pinsir

After Stealth Rock, Close Combat OHKOs anything. Don't get me started on Earthquake.

Quagsire

*Laughs in Pain*

Raikou

*Laughs in Calm Mind*

Rotom-W

252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 139-165 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 132-156 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

On ther other hand...

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 135-160 (48 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 166-196 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Sableye

Calm Mind+Recover Stall

Scizor (and Mega Scizor) <3

Base Scizor sometimes carries Superpower while Mega Scizor is an occasional user. On the other hand, both are prone to carry Knock Off (bar Choice Band Scizor), which cripples Magneton. Hidden Power Fire 2HKOs the metal menace, but some variants have the power of using U-Turn to escape into a reliable check. A bit shaky, as, at the very least, Scizor is either gone or U-Turns out, preventing a potential sweep for the moment.

Serperior

Hidden Power Fire 2HKOs after Stealth Rock for Magnezone, so...Magneton is a bit screwed there. This is also not to mention that Serperior has likely already received a +2 from Leaf Storm, doing a bit more damage and inching them closer to death.

Skarmory

Whirlwind? I'm joking--this thing is dead.

Slowbro (and Mega Slowbro)

Okay, fair enough. Both 2HKO the beast.

Starmie

This is the only Pokemon that I want to give credit to Magneton for outspeeding. Though neither can afford to switch into it, Magnezone's Choice Scarf set it outsped by a single point and 2HKOd by Hydro Pump.

Talonflame

Both shock this bird, but both have to be aware of the Specially Defensive set. After a hit, Talonflame can Roost loop to full health and stall it out into Struggle.

Thundurus

A Pokemon that carries Focus Blast? Please.

Tornadus-Therian

Both Pokemon have their issues, but at least Magnezone can claim to more bulk and surviving two Superpowers.

Tyranitar (and Mega Tyranitar)

Superpower and Earthquake. Pick one.

Mega Venusaur

I hear a Leech Seed stall for both of them.

Volcanion

*Laughs in Fire Blast*

Weavile <3

Okay, I've had enough. Weavile has the grand potential to completely destroy Magneton. Magneton has almost zero chance to switch in. Weavile has access to Knock Off and Low Kick; the former move completely wrecks Magneton's ability to sweep (and HP), while the latter just wrecks in general. Anybody saying that Magneton can switch into Weavile with ease (the wise player notices it in Team Preview and uses Knock Off more often) is a liar. To be fair, however, Magneton is a good Revenge Killer, threatening a OHKO from Flash Cannon, so that's something to write home about. Magnezone doesn't fare much better (and we've all discussed this). It's a similar situation to Starmie, if anything.

Zapdos

*Laughs in Heat Wave*

So...

Outside of outspeeding Starmie, Weavile, and Tornadus-Therian, NONE of which Magneton can even switch into to begin with, and having the inability to take as many hits...is it really worth using Magneton over Magnezone? These Pokemon can completely decimate Magneton and Magnezone both. The true difference in speed is only noticeable in these three Pokemon, as many others these two cannot switch into at all. After an examination of Magneton's ability to switch in (and bulk), its speed, and noticeable drop in Special Attack (in a couple instances it can mean a difference), I do not see why Magneton is in need of a huge rise, nor do I see the true value in a small increase of speed and how that warrants a rise when Magnezone is overall just better. C- is fine for Magneton--hell, I'd even be okay with C neutral. C+ is just going too far, however, as even those Pokemon do their jobs better.

If you really want to know why I believe Magneton is absolutely outclassed and useless in comparison, I bring up a term that many people used to describe Gen 3 Breloom: One-Trick Pony. Many people agree that if a Pokemon can fit different roles or have different sets, it becomes more valuable. Many will agree to one set being better than the others, but the matter is that it can run multiple sets without sacrificing MUCH. Lucario could run a Physical or Special set and the opponent would have to scout it ahead before sending a check in for the most part. Garchomp has TankChomp and offensive sets. Landorus-T runs Choice Scarf, pivot, and boosting sets. Clefable...don't get me started. At the very least, if a Pokemon only has one viable set (Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, and Zapdos because I've mentioned how the Specially Defensive set is a travesty before), they had better run it as best as possible. Ferrothorn is regarded as one of the best Physical Walls, Amoonguss is rising as one of the best pivots, and Zapdos...yeah no (discussed why it should not rise before, won't mention again). Magneton has one job: outspeed Magnezone and take care of Pokemon its evolution cannot. All it can do is Revenge Kill them at best, as it's been proven that switching in is even more of a problem. Taking care of a Pokemon shouldn't solely involve Revenge Killing; checking is a very important role to be a part of, as it means you can save a Pokemon rather than coming in after one as been lost. People say that the drop in bulk isn't much, but hopefully I've shed some light on why that's wrong. This is my full analysis on Magneton and why its inferiority to Magnezone is the reason why it's in C- to begin with; a niche like this isn't worth a complete replacement--it's like replacing Chansey with Blissey because of its ability to handle Manaphy and nothing else.

 

[Ramses]

I think the Mega Latias hype is done. Even when it was at the height of its popularity I never really found myself turning to this thing. Especially with T Tar everywhere and even though it can break through teams it needs way too many boosts to do this. You would look at its typing and think it is a premier Mega Medicham check until you realize this thing is straight up 2HKO'd by Ice Punch. And while it can punch holes in frailer teams, it never gets to do that because it is always threatened by something, namely Weavile, Mega Diancie, and T Tar.

well you make it seem like mega medicham is supposed to have switch-ins lol, it looks like clefable should be a premier mega cham check, but it's straight up 2HKOed by HJK and that doesn't make it a bad mon so mega latias isn't a bad mon because of that sole reason. also why does it sound like you're antagonizing mega latias for actually having viable checks? seriously, so what if it's threatened by weav, diancie, and tar not like when it's supposed to be amazing when its checks and counters are still in play

Mega Latias also would be a good sand check if it weren't for Tyranitar. And Pursuit from band Tar 2HKOs this thing even if it stays in. And if its scarf Tar then Crunch easily 2HKOs this thing. This thing just loses to so many things right now and although it has a ton of defensive utility, it can never take advantage of that because something that destroys it is right around the corner. Dragon Pulse hits like a pebble without any boosts, and fatter teams love it. Not to mention this thing's worst nightmare is getting toxiced. The moment it gets Toxiced this things defensive utility shoots down to almost zero. It can't wall much and it has trouble setting up because it is on a timer.

sets that use dragon pulse other than just for kyuB are asking to get taken advantage of which is why you use appropriate coverage moves or just not try to setup before they're gone? pretty rudimentary logic since something like clefable loves steels and poisons being gone or it uses it's extra slot to break past them so it can setup safely. the part about status gives me headaches since letting yourself get toxiced or twaved is entirely your fault when you should try and get burned if you want to ensure you can sweep later with CM

Psyshock is almost mandatory right now as well. Clefable is only one of the various examples of how this thing is complete bait for many Pokemon without Psyshock. And it is absolutely never a good thing to be complete set up bait for the best mon in the meta game. I also would like to point out that this thing pretty much has to run Roost or otherwise it gets worn down very, very quickly. This means Mega Latias is also confined to pretty much running Dragon Pulse, Psyshock, Calm Mind, and Roost. So, this thing is pretty much walled by Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Heatran, and a ton of other staples nowadays. That's not a good thing, and even if you choose to forgo Calm Mind and run some defensive set, then you pretty much have a total of 0 offensive presence. With these recent trends and the lack of a good set other than Calm Mind for Mega Latias(that set also has its flaws), I think I agree with Gary and I say this thing should drop.

I mean if you let your CM mega latias get twaved by clefable I guess you do deserve to lose to it. and for the record psyshock is not good on mega latias, it's just something that users want to use to try and quickly break past things but get disappointed when they fail at it, which is why you should run stored power to break past resists like skarm, tran, and ferro or in tandem with a coverage move. having to pack roost isn't even bad considering latios needs roost, clefable needs soft-boiled, defensive mega scizor needs roost, etc. so it's not like that only affects mega latias.

in the end, i think mega latias is a solid A- mon and nothing too drastic has even changed for it to drop back to B+. suicune definitely has more going for it atm, but I think them both being A- would be more accurate.

 

[MemeMeme Island]

Hi, I'm new here.

Chansey and Tangrowth up to A-

Chansey is the staple of OU stall, it takes practically no damage from any Special attack. It's the bulkiest Special Wall in the entire metagame. It can perform numerous different roles at once, such as a cleric, wish passer, stealth rock setter, all at once, and there isn't any other Pokemon outside of Blissey that can do all of that in one set. There's also hardly any clerics in OU, Chansey, Clefable and Togekiss are literally it. (not bothering to count Blissey) It sponges Special Attacks better than any other Pokemon in the metagame, it excels in the multiple roles it can perform at once, and it's great glue.

Tangrowth on the other hand, is a good physical wall. It has being seeing more usage lately, and it's easy to see why. It counters a lot of the higher rank Pokemon (Azumarill, Excadrill, Landorus-Therian, Tyranitar) reliably, and it's also one of the best answers to the common sand. It also has one of the best abilities in the game, Regenerator, and thanks to its great physical bulk, it can be hard to wear down. It can repeatedly do its job during a match, and it's easier for it do now thanks to the metagame's adaptions.

Hippowdon down to B

Literal garbage.

Hippowdon has been getting worse and worse in OU. Not only is it mostly outclassed as a sand setter by Tyranitar, but it also has to deal with numerous brick walls such as Rotom-W, Tangrowth and Keldeo. There are so many Stealth Rock setters that I'd use over it, Landorus-Therian, Tyranitar, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Clefable, and Chansey to name a few. What does Hippowdon have that none of those Pokemon have? Hippowdon is outclassed and struggling.

 

[Seth_]

Hi, I'm new here.
Chansey and Tangrowth up to A-

Chansey is the staple of OU stall, it takes practically no damage from any Special attack. It's the bulkiest Special Wall in the entire metagame. It can perform numerous different roles at once, such as a cleric, wish passer, stealth rock setter, all at once, and there isn't any other Pokemon outside of Blissey that can do all of that in one set. There's also hardly any clerics in OU, Chansey, Clefable and Togekiss are literally it. (not bothering to count Blissey) It sponges Special Attacks better than any other Pokemon in the metagame, it excels in the multiple roles it can perform at once, and it's great glue.

Tangrowth on the other hand, is a good physical wall. It has being seeing more usage lately, and it's easy to see why. It counters a lot of the higher rank Pokemon (Azumarill, Excadrill, Landorus-Therian, Tyranitar) reliably, and it's also one of the best answers to the common sand. It also has one of the best abilities in the game, Regenerator, and thanks to its great physical bulk, it can be hard to wear down. It can repeatedly do its job during a match, and it's easier for it do now thanks to the metagame's adaptions.
Hippowdon down to B

Literal garbage.

Hippowdon has been getting worse and worse in OU. Not only is it mostly outclassed as a sand setter by Tyranitar, but it also has to deal with numerous brick walls such as Rotom-W, Tangrowth and Keldeo. There are so many Stealth Rock setters that I'd use over it, Landorus-Therian, Tyranitar, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Clefable, and Chansey to name a few. What does Hippowdon have that none of those Pokemon have? Hippowdon is outclassed and struggling.

Chansey relies too much on team support (no rocks) and eviolite. Without item it's not even good at walling special attackers. To give you idea how much chansey relies on it: chansey is 2HKO by life orb zam without eviolite (what makes stallbreaker alakazam set really nice). And knock off is very common move, people runs even clef knock off, thundurus knock off.

Hippowdon is far, far from garbage. First of all - it's not competitont to tyranitar by any means because Tyranitar is not wall. Only thing they have in common are rocks and sand. Second of all hippowdon is one of tenacious wall, very reliable Bisharp counter and has access to whirlwind being immute to t-wave at same time. These abilities makes it very useful on various balance builds while it doesn't have much to offer on offence.

 

[HailFall]

Chansey relies too much on team support (no rocks) and eviolite. Without item it's not even good at walling special attackers. To give you idea how much chansey relies on it: chansey is 2HKO by life orb zam without eviolite (what makes stallbreaker alakazam set really nice). And knock off is very common move, people runs even clef knock off, thundurus knock off.

The argument that chansey shouldnt rise because its "too reliant on its item" is kind of terrible because chansey shouldnt be handling knock off users period. Yes some knock off lures exist but this is not a very good reason for it not to rise. In most practical situations chansey will have its eviolite so some theorymon "but if it loses its item and then has to take on x special attacker" situation doesn't change much of anything. Its worth considering but its not as big of a blow in chansey's viability as you make it out to be.

I dont necessarially agree with chansey to a- but i dont think "it needs eviolite so its bad" is a very logical argument to make.

 

[Seth_]

The argument that chansey shouldnt rise because its "too reliant on its item" is kind of terrible because chansey shouldnt be handling knock off users period. Yes some knock off lures exist but this is not a very good reason for it not to rise. In most practical situations chansey will have its eviolite so some theorymon "but if it loses its item and then has to take on x special attacker" situation doesn't change much of anything. Its worth considering but its not as big of a blow in chansey's viability as you make it out to be.

I dont necessarially agree with chansey to a- but i dont think "it needs eviolite so its bad" is a very logical argument to make.

what's wrong with this argument?

One of the best special wallbreakers - torn-t runs knockoff. Chansey has a lot of trouble walling keldeo (quite obvious), set up special sweepers (np thundurus, tg manaphy), most garcevoir sets. Top special attackers are runing mixed nowadays or have ways to beat it (like psyshock for slowbro, leech seed for serp). Chansey isn't best answer to special attackers anymore. It's too pasive, don't have regenerator(like tangrowth, amoongus) or leftovers and it is weak to hazard. You need really fat core to support it what makes chanse much less effective on things like balance. Working great only under special conditions is not staple of very viable pokemon.

 

[Josh]

People are underestimating chansey's bulk without eviolite. Yeah it obviously doesn't want to lose it but even without eviolite it can still wall most special attackers. It's not like it's dead weight. Chansey has been very good for a long time and it rising is long overdue imo.

Edit: I'm on mobile and the mobile calc is terrible so I'm not gonna add them sorry.

 

[Seth_]

People are underestimating chansey's bulk without eviolite. Yeah it obviously doesn't want to lose it but even without eviolite it can still wall most special attackers. It's not like it's dead weight. Chansey has been very good for a long time and it rising is long overdue imo.

Man, show replays/calcs.

I have played aginst chansey numerous times using like stallbreaker alakazam, wallbreakar torn-t and from my experience chanse can't wall shit without eviolite.

Maybe I'm wrong, but damn, show me your arguments!

 

[HC]

Man, show replays/calcs.

I have played aginst chansey numerous times using like stallbreaker alakazam, wallbreakar torn-t and from my experience chanse can't wall shit without eviolite.

Maybe I'm wrong, but damn, show me your arguments!

You've brought up two pokemon there, one of which carries a special move that hits on the physical side and another that often runs superpower, obviously non eviolite Chansey isn't walling those. But look at the premier special wallbreakers since you wanted some calcs w/o eviolite

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Sun: 240-283 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 226-267 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I'd consider these the best of the best in terms of purely special wallbreaking purposes, it still eats Char Y FBs ffs! I'm not even the biggest fan of Chansey and don't care where it goes but Chansey clearly isn't useless after losing its item, okay, it isn't handling physical hitters as well (you should have something else to deal with this anyway) but it still eats hits from the hardest things to hit in the game, and then Toxic/TWave and heal off the damage.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

I don't agree with Mega Latias dropping to B+ at all, so I'm going to give my two cents on the matter.

The fact that Mega Latias struggles with Clefable and getting twaved is nothing new. Why do people expect it to be able to beat Clef? If you're using Mega Latias, you need proper support for it, just like any other mega - you can't expect it to break everything. Saying that it struggles with Clef, Tar, and Weavile isn't anything new. Most Mega Latias builds have (or should have) answers for these mons.

Why would you ever let MLati take a toxic or a twave? I've heard countless times that it's useless when statused, but you wouldn't let your Zard-X take one either right? Or your Medi/Lop take a will-o? Many mons get shut down by status so I'm not sure why you would even let MLati take one of those or stay in on something that threatens it out. I usually pair it with something like Clef/Gliscor for status absorption. The whole argument about MLati taking status just seems kinda dumb to me and I don't think belongs.

MLati isn't supposed to check the entire meta either. It's like people are disappointed when it can't singlehandedly check Keldeo, Thundy, Lop, Medi, Lando, Drill, and so on. It's good at what it does and if you're slapping it on a team without proper support for it and expect it to be your only check for 20 different mons then you're using it wrong.
The moveset for the CM set isn't set in stone and I'm not sure why people insist on Dragon Pulse/Psyshock being the only two moves it can run. I never even run dragon pulse lol, and depending on what the team struggles with you have a variety of options - tbolt, ice beam, surf, stored power, etc, which still makes it unpredictable.

What's so bad about MLati being passive? I mean I get that this can be a drawback, but I don't think (if it drops) that this should be a reason. It's primarily used on BO/balance builds where a lot of other mons are passive. Being passive isn't a bad thing as BO has proven to be successful for some time now. It's not like a lot of mons can just freely switch in and take opportunity/momentum off the fact that it's passive (Clef aside but you should have an answer for that).

Reflect Type + BoltBeam is also a good set that lets it beat Ferro, Heatran, Skarm, and even things like Bisharp and Tar. Tar can't 2ohko after a reflect type and Bish usually gets 2ohkoed by tbolt after rocks regardless/can't switch in. I love this set and I'm not sure why people put it off to the side and regard it as useless. It also lets it check sand very well, being an answer for Tar, Drill, Keldeo, and most fat grasses that are usually paired with sand builds (unless you just let it get spored). It can check the waters it's supposed to check (Volc, Rotom, Keld) and stuff like Zard-Y + Tar with the reflect type set. Also not sure how Mega Heracross 6-0'ing most of these builds is relevant as I can't remember the last time that thing didn't massacre a whole team in the first place.

It's also very important to remember that this thing still boasts 110 speed, which lets it be a fat wall that can outrun Keldeo, Chomp, base 100's, etc...

I might update this with explanations of MLati teams that I've used and are still successful on the ladder, but you can check out these replays bc I've used the teams on there/slightly modified with great success still:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-118622
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138988
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-139608
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-387992843

All those replays show solid MLati builds and how they handle different teams.

Can we also please get over how this thing "needs several boosts to provide offensive presence" or "you have 0 offensive presence if you don't use CM"? If you decide to use the reflect type set, then pair it with something like Keldeo or something else that provides offensive presence. I'm also gonna drop these calcs here to compare power, so don't take them out of context (I know MLati will never run draco):

+1 0 SpA Mega Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 374-444 (115.7 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 374-439 (115.7 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 0 SpA Mega Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 306-361 (94.7 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 302-356 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+1 0 SpA Mega Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 207-244 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 SpA Mega Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 82-97 (21.2 - 25.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 82-96 (21.2 - 24.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 SpA Mega Latias Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 118-141 (38.9 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 118-140 (38.9 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 SpA Mega Latias Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 265-313 (87.4 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 261-308 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

I fail to see how one Calm Mind is considered several boosts, as you're already hitting as hard as LO Latios after one, which isn't hard to get with how many things it forces out. I could drop these calcs for days but I hear - countless times - that MLati hits like a stick, which is completely false. Are you expecting it to hit as hard as Medi? It pulls its own weight, as the calcs show.

Lastly, not only are you already hitting decently hard (as hard as Latios) at +1, but I think people fail to realize how incredibly fat this thing is at +1:

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. +1 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Latias: 168-200 (46.2 - 55%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Latias: 260-307 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. +1 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Latias: 156-185 (42.9 - 50.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO (and most NP Thundy are lefties lol)

Yes, these calcs are relevant (maybe not in a lot of scenarios) because they've won me games before. I CM'd on Hippo on the Diancie switch, outsped it, and didn't even get 2hkod. The second one was against an HP Fire Latios (I was running TBolt + Psyshock) and at +1 the second draco doesn't kill after a roost. Not only does this thing hit just as hard as Latios at +1, it also EATS, even from Diancie and Latios. Most Diancie are running more attack nowadays for Clef so that helps too.

I'm not saying this thing is a god, but I definitely think it's comfortable at home in A-. It's not suited for B+ and even if Suicune does rise to A-, I'm not sure how this would push for a MLati drop.

Keep Mega Latias A-.

Now that I think about it brb gonna make a Mega Latias + Suicune + Clef team and never lose a ladder game