Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[Indigo Plateau]

I don't agree with Mega Latias dropping to B+ at all, so I'm going to give my two cents on the matter.

The fact that Mega Latias struggles with Clefable and getting twaved is nothing new. Why do people expect it to be able to beat Clef? If you're using Mega Latias, you need proper support for it, just like any other mega - you can't expect it to break everything. Saying that it struggles with Clef, Tar, and Weavile isn't anything new. Most Mega Latias builds have (or should have) answers for these mons.

Why would you ever let MLati take a toxic or a twave? I've heard countless times that it's useless when statused, but you wouldn't let your Zard-X take one either right? Or your Medi/Lop take a will-o? Many mons get shut down by status so I'm not sure why you would even let MLati take one of those or stay in on something that threatens it out. I usually pair it with something like Clef/Gliscor for status absorption. The whole argument about MLati taking status just seems kinda dumb to me and I don't think belongs.

MLati isn't supposed to check the entire meta either. It's like people are disappointed when it can't singlehandedly check Keldeo, Thundy, Lop, Medi, Lando, Drill, and so on. It's good at what it does and if you're slapping it on a team without proper support for it and expect it to be your only check for 20 different mons then you're using it wrong.
The moveset for the CM set isn't set in stone and I'm not sure why people insist on Dragon Pulse/Psyshock being the only two moves it can run. I never even run dragon pulse lol, and depending on what the team struggles with you have a variety of options - tbolt, ice beam, surf, stored power, etc, which still makes it unpredictable.

What's so bad about MLati being passive? I mean I get that this can be a drawback, but I don't think (if it drops) that this should be a reason. It's primarily used on BO/balance builds where a lot of other mons are passive. Being passive isn't a bad thing as BO has proven to be successful for some time now. It's not like a lot of mons can just freely switch in and take opportunity/momentum off the fact that it's passive (Clef aside but you should have an answer for that).

Reflect Type + BoltBeam is also a good set that lets it beat Ferro, Heatran, Skarm, and even things like Bisharp and Tar. Tar can't 2ohko after a reflect type and Bish usually gets 2ohkoed by tbolt after rocks regardless/can't switch in. I love this set and I'm not sure why people put it off to the side and regard it as useless. It also lets it check sand very well, being an answer for Tar, Drill, Keldeo, and most fat grasses that are usually paired with sand builds (unless you just let it get spored). It can check the waters it's supposed to check (Volc, Rotom, Keld) and stuff like Zard-Y + Tar with the reflect type set. Also not sure how Mega Heracross 6-0'ing most of these builds is relevant as I can't remember the last time that thing didn't massacre a whole team in the first place.

It's also very important to remember that this thing still boasts 110 speed, which lets it be a fat wall that can outrun Keldeo, Chomp, base 100's, etc...

I might update this with explanations of MLati teams that I've used and are still successful on the ladder, but you can check out these replays bc I've used the teams on there/slightly modified with great success still:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-118622
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138988
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-139608
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-387992843

All those replays show solid MLati builds and how they handle different teams.

Can we also please get over how this thing "needs several boosts to provide offensive presence" or "you have 0 offensive presence if you don't use CM"? If you decide to use the reflect type set, then pair it with something like Keldeo or something else that provides offensive presence. I'm also gonna drop these calcs here to compare power, so don't take them out of context (I know MLati will never run draco):

+1 0 SpA Mega Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 374-444 (115.7 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 374-439 (115.7 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 0 SpA Mega Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 306-361 (94.7 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 302-356 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+1 0 SpA Mega Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 207-244 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 SpA Mega Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 82-97 (21.2 - 25.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 82-96 (21.2 - 24.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 SpA Mega Latias Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 118-141 (38.9 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 118-140 (38.9 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 SpA Mega Latias Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 265-313 (87.4 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 261-308 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

I fail to see how one Calm Mind is considered several boosts, as you're already hitting as hard as LO Latios after one, which isn't hard to get with how many things it forces out. I could drop these calcs for days but I hear - countless times - that MLati hits like a stick, which is completely false. Are you expecting it to hit as hard as Medi? It pulls its own weight, as the calcs show.

Lastly, not only are you already hitting decently hard (as hard as Latios) at +1, but I think people fail to realize how incredibly fat this thing is at +1:

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. +1 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Latias: 168-200 (46.2 - 55%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Latias: 260-307 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. +1 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Latias: 156-185 (42.9 - 50.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO (and most NP Thundy are lefties lol)

Yes, these calcs are relevant (maybe not in a lot of scenarios) because they've won me games before. I CM'd on Hippo on the Diancie switch, outsped it, and didn't even get 2hkod. The second one was against an HP Fire Latios (I was running TBolt + Psyshock) and at +1 the second draco doesn't kill after a roost. Not only does this thing hit just as hard as Latios at +1, it also EATS, even from Diancie and Latios. Most Diancie are running more attack nowadays for Clef so that helps too.

I'm not saying this thing is a god, but I definitely think it's comfortable at home in A-. It's not suited for B+ and even if Suicune does rise to A-, I'm not sure how this would push for a MLati drop.

Keep Mega Latias A-.

Now that I think about it brb gonna make a Mega Latias + Suicune + Clef team and never lose a ladder game

 

[Seth_]

You've brought up two pokemon there, one of which carries a special move that hits on the physical side and another that often runs superpower, obviously non eviolite Chansey isn't walling those. But look at the premier special wallbreakers since you wanted some calcs w/o eviolite

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Sun: 240-283 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 226-267 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I'd consider these the best of the best in terms of purely special wallbreaking purposes, it still eats Char Y FBs ffs! I'm not even the biggest fan of Chansey and don't care where it goes but Chansey clearly isn't useless after losing its item, okay, it isn't handling physical hitters as well (you should have something else to deal with this anyway) but it still eats hits from the hardest things to hit in the game, and then Toxic/TWave and heal off the damage.

I don't think that you can say "chansey walls zardY without eviolite" when rocks and little bit of prior damage is enough to 2HKO.

Not to mention that zardY vs chansey is kinda out of context situation because zardY exist in very specific types of team (they always carry traper) which makes dealing with chansey quite easy.

 

[HailFall]

Reuniclus to B+

Reuni is quite an unprepared for mon right now that sets up on some major threats such as megacham and mega diancie (max attack variants too!) while after just a single boost being able to take on the likes of kyurem-b and keldeo. It has amazing bulk and good power, while its ability lets it avoid being weak to rocks or spikes as well which is pretty nice albeit not the best argument for a rise on its own. For the most part B rank is home to pokemon that can be very good in certain matchups but utterly useless in others (toge, kingdra, volcarona, etc). I really dont feel this applies to reuni. Ive found it to be quite consistent in what it does, which is being a super fat wincon that packs a punch. Reuni is far more consistent and effective in most matchups than, say, mega aerodactyl or altaria at least, imo. Ive personally never been in a matchup where i genuinely felt reuni was useless unlike those mons. I guess some stuff in B could be argued to drop instead because i wouldn't say reuni is significantly better than stuff like slowking i guess (tbh i think slowking should rise too but thats whatever), but i think most of B is generally not as effective as reuni and it would be simpler for it to rise than to drop multiple other mons. With us seeing so much of weavile right now, this might seem like a strange nom to make, but reuni can deal tons of damage to common dark types that try to come in with focus blast or signal beam. In addition to this, reuni has enough bulk to live a pursuit from all but the most powerful of pursuit trappers, cb tyranitar, which is ohkoed by focus blast with only a teensy bit of prior damage. Reuni dismantles your standard lando/rotom/lati/heatran bulky offense cores at +1 and also usually puts in significant work against two very common team archetypes in mega diancie and mega medicham teams while pressuring several other somewhat less common archetypes like lop offenses and venutran balances. Obviously it needs support in handling darks, but conveniently enough it pairs extremely well with a few very good mons right now like mega scizor, keldeo, rotom-w, and suicune which can handle them all to at least some degree. This mon is just overall pretty effective rn and I think it deserves a rise taking the current metagame into account.

edit @ below: Comparing clefable and reuni is like comparing apples and oranges. Theyre both fruit, but theyre very different overall. Also youll notice im nomming reuni for B+ not S, so comparisons to clefable when theyre different mons that do different things are pointless. Their only similarity is "fat cm mon with magic guard". Reuni does have a number of advantages though such as resistance to psychic, better overall bulk, a different movepool, and much higher base special attack. I personally think suicune should be A- so im viewing this from the viewpoint that no, reuniclus isnt as good as suicune but that shouldnt stop reuniclus from being B+. Mega bro takes up a mega slot and has a shitty ability meaning its easily stopped by toxic and pressured by hazards. Also if you havent used reuni, why are you commenting on its viability?

 

[Jaroda]

Hippowdon down to B

Literal garbage.

Hippowdon has been getting worse and worse in OU. Not only is it mostly outclassed as a sand setter by Tyranitar, but it also has to deal with numerous brick walls such as Rotom-W, Tangrowth and Keldeo. There are so many Stealth Rock setters that I'd use over it, Landorus-Therian, Tyranitar, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Clefable, and Chansey to name a few. What does Hippowdon have that none of those Pokemon have? Hippowdon is outclassed and struggling.

OK, just to address the hyperbole, nothing nominated for B rank could be described as "literal garbage". We call

Not that I necessarily disagree with your nomination, I'm merely going to answer your question of what Hippo objectively offers compared to what you listed. That would include a Ground type without a 4x weakness, T-Wave immunity, access to recovery, and ability to phaze set up sweepers. I also totally forgot this thing gets Yawn, which is fun for predicted switch ins. It's honestly really hard to OHKO Hippo with coverage compared to Tyranitar, Heatran, Ferrothorn or Lando-T. Sure more often than not it just sits there, but certainly isn't no less passive than Ferrothorn or Chansey with its STAB Earthquake, still threatening regardless of investment with 112 Atk.

After having typed this though, I think its current rank in B+ is reflective of what it has to offer, especially since all of those mon listed are already ranked equally or higher.

As for Reuniclus to B+, I have a hard time seeing the justification when its role as a bulky CM user is eclipsed by Clefable, and I certainly would not say it's as effective a CM user as the two already in the tier being Mega Slowbro and Suicune. Maybe its underappreciated, I don't use it currently, but I am currently unconvinced that a rise in ranks is justified.

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

As for Reuniclus to B+, I have a hard time seeing the justification when its role as a bulky CM user is eclipsed by Clefable, and I certainly would say it's as effective a CM user as the two already in the tier being Mega Slowbro and Suicune. Maybe its underappreciated, I don't use it currently, but I am currently unconvinced that a rise in ranks is justified.

I think of Reuniclus as sort of a fusion between Clefable and Mega Slowbro with the combination of Magic Guard and CM Psyshock, allowing it to ignore passive damage and win a CM war with the likes Clefable and CroCune (barring hax), respectively, allows it to not be stuck in Clef's shadow. I'm relatively neutral on a rise to B+, but its positive traits are definitely something to considered.

 

[Jaroda]

Yes, I understand what Reuniclus has to offer, including Magic Guard and great off hand SpA (125 offhand iirc), but I meant I don't see it at the same rank as Mega Bro or Suicune.

 

[Bluemargay]

Reuniclus has one big problem that other calm down users don't have: Weavile. Clefable, Slowbro, Suicune and even Sylveon, don't fear Weavile the way Reuniclus does. Considering how omnipresent Weavile is, Reuniclus doesn't really have a place in the meta.

 

[Samoyed]

Reuniclus has one big problem that other calm down users don't have: Weavile. Clefable, Slowbro, Suicune and even Sylveon, don't fear Weavile the way Reuniclus does. Considering how omnipresent Weavile is, Reuniclus doesn't really have a place in the meta.

Whilst Weavile can still often beat Reun, LO Jolly Knock Off fails to OHKO Reun and Reun can retaliate with focus miss, so Weavile does not always reliably beat Reuniclus.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 354-421 (83.4 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 476-564 (169.3 - 200.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Acamm130]

Reuniclus has one big problem that other calm down users don't have: Weavile. Clefable, Slowbro, Suicune and even Sylveon, don't fear Weavile the way Reuniclus does. Considering how omnipresent Weavile is, Reuniclus doesn't really have a place in the meta.

Reuniclus obviously has a place in the meta because it is ranked...
Also weavile is not omnipresent. It is in ou so it is common but I wouldn't even classify lando as omnipresent because that would make it seem like it is on every team, which it is not. Plus, that logic suggests that latios should drop too because it gets pursuit trapped if you don't play diligently. I am not completely sold on a rise to b+ but a pokemon definitely does not have "no place" because of a few mons that have type advantage over it or can pursuit it.

 

[Gary]

I do like Reuniclus, and it does provide some really cool defensive utility against some pretty big threats, as well as a solid win con. However, I have a very hard time comparing it in viability with Suicune in B+, who I personally think is just so much more consistent overall. Although I agree that people over exaggerate how Pursuit weak Reuniclus is considering how it's so fat, it still has a big issue trying to sweep consistently when Weavile, CB T-tar, and Bisharp all outspeed you and have the tools to beat Reuniclus with just a tiny bit of prior damage, so half the time it's just spamming Recover especially versus Sand teams. I think its Speed is more of an issue to it than most other CM users, because unlike Slowbro it doesn't pack Scald which heavily pressures them, and while it does have Focus Blast you can't ignore how relying on it as your only way to beat Dark-types is a huge problem, especially in a 1v1 situation. I've just always thought that relying on Psyshock as your main sweeping STAB is really subpar in a Dark- and Steel-type invested meta, because it forces Reuniclus to rely so much on a shitty coverage move, which can be detrimental in situations where it could get phazed out or KOed.

Still I have more of an issue with Reuniclus sharing a rank with one of the deadlist CMers in the tier right now, Suicune, because the defensive utility it packs is unarguably more useful at the moment because of its mono Water-typing, and thanks to Roar and great Speed tier practically nothing can set up on it. It also has one of the best moves to sweep with, Scald, because it can just burn Grass- and Water-types and use them as set up fodder. In general I just feel like most of the Pokemon in B+ are easier to fit onto a team than Reuniclus, especially considering that despite its advantages, it definitely faces competition as a fat CMer from many other Pokemon.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Whilst Weavile can still often beat Reun, LO Jolly Knock Off fails to OHKO Reun and Reun can retaliate with focus miss, so Weavile does not always reliably beat Reuniclus.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 354-421 (83.4 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 476-564 (169.3 - 200.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ah yes, we all know how reliable Focus Blast is...

You're still leaving one of the slowest pokemon in the metagame at a whopping 16.6% best case scenario. In my experience Reuniclus struggles to get past it's counters, more so than Suicune, Clefable and Mega Slowbro.

Suicune's physical checks struggle to switch into Scald, even then they have to get past Suicunes monsterous defense, with only two physically based grass types and no physically based electric types it's not to relevant. So that leaves it to special attackers, but if they let you boost up then they aren't doing anything either. Same thing with Slowbro, although Slowbro has three more weaknesses - knock off is doing nothing and Mega Slowbro is already the physically bulkiest mon in the metagame.

Clefable has more reliable counters, but also has the best ability and a wider movepool, and is still the best pokwmon in the tier.

So that leaves Reuniclues, a very slow, pursuit weak pokemon lacking a spammable move and having one of the worst typings in the game. I really struggle to justify it being B+, especially compared to the other B+ ranks. We already have two Calm Minders in B+! Though Suicune should probably rise.

Just my thoughts!

 

[Century Express]

Mega Lati is extremely good and i wouldn't never drop it to B+ (personally i think Mega Lati deserves A or A+ but w/e,,,,). It's probably the best supporter of Thunder Wave, because Lati itself discourages the switch-in of a lot of common TWave-immune dudes like Chomper and Lando-T, and it's pretty easy to make solid combinations from it. You don't want to play with a paralyzed Heatran | Jirachi | Bisharp | Tyranitar vs a well-played Clef / Reuniclus or Torn-T, you can even play with it with a safer route (Mega Lati is pretty hard to be Pursuit'd by Support and Scarftar overall), and simultanealy provides key resistances, giving backup do Double Dance Lando-T, Thundurus, BD Azuma, Keldeo etc in only one slot. Unfortunately Mega Lati is kinda Spikes-bait, and for the risk / reward of teambuilding, it makes you technically a bit more weaker against Stall squads really often, but basing it only on the Pursuit | Knock Off "Dark-type typechart xd" is pretty flawed overall. A- is fine for me tho.

About the discussion points, everything sounds fine for me, i wouldn't 100% oppose the A- for Amoonguss, but ignoring its niche of Fairy- + Water-resist, it's kinda annoying when it underperforms vs Excadrill and SD Chomper / Lando-T. There are some scenarios that you're going to wish to have a Tangrowth in your team instead of Amoonguss, and vice-versa. About @ Mag i think C is fine, it's /decent/ at pivoting Base 120 mons (Weav, Torn-T, Talon), and covers a couple of flaws on the teambuilding (more safer to play vs Mega Scizor and Manaphy on the 1v1), although it sucks to use a Dragon- / Fairy-resist which fails to cover Clefable and Latios !_!

Raise Weavile to A+ pls it's broken af when Keldeo isn't on the team preview

 

[Seth_]

Infernape to B-

This is pretty average mon but has amazing defensive utility. Bulky infernape is great scizor, weavile and bisharp counter. Last time we have surge in usage of all three of them and everybody knows how good are them. Infernape can also put rocks on field and deal acceptable damage with low kick. It isn't that hard to support because it benefits great tangrowth which betas it's most counters (lando, rotom, latios, azu). Moreover Infername can spam whisp which helps breaking tank chomps, ferro and skarms.

I think that's good enough to be B-.

 

[HailFall]

I fail to see what significant niches defensive nape provides over keldeo. Sure its got more reliable recovery than rest, but keldeo has a handy rocks resistance, more overall bulk, and much less passivity. Scald has a good chance to burn anyways and keldeo also doesnt get walled to hell and back by mega sableye. Defensive infernape's niches over keldeo are just too small to warrant any arguments for its viability based on those imo. I think its best sets are probably offensive ones but even those aren't fantastic.

 

[QuickBH]

I fail to see what significant niches defensive nape provides over keldeo. Sure its got more reliable recovery than rest, but keldeo has a handy rocks resistance, more overall bulk, and much less passivity. Scald has a good chance to burn anyways and keldeo also doesnt get walled to hell and back by mega sableye. Defensive infernape's niches over keldeo are just too small to warrant any arguments for its viability based on those imo. I think its best sets are probably offensive ones but even those aren't fantastic.

Infernape practically 6-0s most stall teams because you can 2HKO M-Venusaur/M-Sableye and if not mega evolved make it a bitch for it to come in, can take out Slowbro with Grass Knot reliably, beat Clefable, beats Amoonguss and the rest that Keldeo can also beat.

I can send replays if you want but I'm in a completely different country with just this phone so I'm hoping my past credibilities will make you guys at least look at this post.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Not to mention Infernape has 2 solid boosting moves in Swords Dance and Nasty Plot as well as the same speed stat as Keldeo, and even access to priority moves on BOTH sides of the spectrum. This gives it a decent matchup against offense and balanced teams.

Infernape is honestly one of the most versatile Pokemon in the game and it deserves at least B-. Comparing it to Keldeo is somewhat silly.

 

[Seth_]

I fail to see what significant niches defensive nape provides over keldeo. Sure its got more reliable recovery than rest, but keldeo has a handy rocks resistance, more overall bulk, and much less passivity. Scald has a good chance to burn anyways and keldeo also doesnt get walled to hell and back by mega sableye. Defensive infernape's niches over keldeo are just too small to warrant any arguments for its viability based on those imo. I think its best sets are probably offensive ones but even those aren't fantastic.

Scald has 30% to burn while whisp has 85%. That's huge diffrence, no one can lie.

Infernape has diffrent typing (no grass and electric resist) and having reliable recovery is actually huge. Slack off heals 50% per turn while rest only 33% and you still have to relie on sleep talk. Moreover resttalk uses 2 slots whilr slack off only one. You can run taunt or stealth rock on extra slot.

Infernape has acces to stealth rocks.
Infernape can't get burn by sableye.


Of course I'm implying that Infernape is good enough for B-, not A+.

 

[HailFall]

Just going to clear up a few things about nape. Probably my last post on the matter because theres not much else to say and I dont really want to get into an argument.

Infernape practically 6-0s most stall teams because you can 2HKO M-Venusaur/M-Sableye and if not mega evolved make it a bitch for it to come in, can take out Slowbro with Grass Knot reliably, beat Clefable, beats Amoonguss and the rest that Keldeo can also beat.

I can send replays if you want but I'm in a completely different country with just this phone so I'm hoping my past credibilities will make you guys at least look at this post.

156 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

Factor in misses, pp staling courtesy of protect, and mega sableye constantly recovering on you, and nape is not very likely to be breaking this. As for venu, with rocks up it has a 14% chance to 2HKO which is admittedly more severe taking into consdieration the low PP of synth, but look at this:

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 169-201 (57.6 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nape isnt a good venu check at all honestly it needs good rolls two times in a row AND venu to try and switch into it with rocks up. Now im not going to sit here and say nape necessarially has a bad matchup against stall, but its not as good as you make it out to be. It certainly doesn't "practically 6-0" when you take this into consideration.

Not to mention Infernape has 2 solid boosting moves in Swords Dance and Nasty Plot as well as the same speed stat as Keldeo, and even access to priority moves on BOTH sides of the spectrum. This gives it a decent matchup against offense and balanced teams.

Infernape is honestly one of the most versatile Pokemon in the game and it deserves at least B-. Comparing it to Keldeo is somewhat silly.

Your logic doesnt quite follow here. You do say that it has two boosting moves and two priority moves, but you fail to explain how this gives it a good matchup against balance/offense. Nape has pitiful bulk leaving it easily knocked out trying to set up against offensive teams and even if it does get the opportunity to set up it is easily stopped cold by any number of viable and common checks such as rotom-w, latios, thundurus, talonflame, tornadus-t, scarf lando, and much more. Balance is one of np/sd nape's better matchups but again, most balances are carrying something fast enough to revenge kill to avoid being steamrolled by manaphy. Versatility doesn't always equal viability if the mon is still not particularly effective at most of its jobs like mega altaria for example. And also, to be clear, in my comparisons to keldeo I was strictly talking about the defensive infernape set, which was what seth was advocating a rise based on in his first post.

Scald has 30% to burn while whisp has 85%. That's huge diffrence, no one can lie.

Infernape has diffrent typing (no grass and electric resist) and having reliable recovery is actually huge. Slack off heals 50% per turn while rest only 33% and you still have to relie on sleep talk. Moreover resttalk uses 2 slots whilr slack off only one. You can run taunt or stealth rock on extra slot.

Infernape has acces to stealth rocks.
Infernape can't get burn by sableye.


Of course I'm implying that Infernape is good enough for B-, not A+.

Scald also deals damage and just kills the grounds infernape has to predict to burn on the switch. Assuming we're still talking about defensive infernape, the grass resistance doesnt mean much of anything honestly. Youre not getting around anything like amoonguss anyways, serp just laughs at low kick and sets up on you, and breloom dies to secret sword from keldeo. Electrics will just volt switch on you and grab momentum regardless. Elecs that dont run volt switch like thundy can easily 2hko nape with tbolt while eating up its low kicks with ease. Running sr>taunt on defensive nape limits its ability to impair defensive cores at least somewhat effectively, as it gives even freer switchins to the likes of amoonguss or clefable. I personally prefer U-turn to either of those to grab momentum but maybe thats just me. Even if something like AoA infernape runs stealth rocks it has to give up valuble coverage meaning its going to be walled by clefable, waters, or heatran severely limiting its offensive potential. Defensive variants of infernape may not be burned by sableye but they cant hit sableye either leaving sableye free to knock off napes item, toxic nape, or even set up in the case of the rare calm mind variants.

I really don't think nape is better than lucario, zapdos, zygarde, victini or like anything else in C+, and I don't agree that its better than much of anything in B- like crawdaunt, hydra, or diggersby as a wallbreaker. As I've already said I don't really see a ton of value in defensive infernape when resttalk keldeo exists, its just so outclassed that defensive nape is a pretty niche option.

edit: keldeo gets taunt too fyi

 

[Acamm130]

I have to say that, while infernape is one of my favorite pokemon, it probably shouldn't rise. For offensive sets, it needs slowbro to switch into a grass knot to beat it and, thanks to regen, you are going to have only done, at most, 24% after lefties + regen. It also loses to mega venu and mega alt, fails to 2hko mega sableye with lo blast, and gets set up on by mega bro, the only megas you will really find on stall. Another thing to point out is that SD, NP, vwave and mach punch were all factored in for its initial ranking and even so, balance and stall have no problem handling those particular moves while offense is on the decline. Not really a justification for a rise.
As for its defensive sets, they remind me of zapdos. It is able to reliably check a couple very threatening mons and have reliable recovery, but also have noticeable flaws that kept them down in C+ In the first place. Overall, I think the monkey fits very well in the C+ ranking.

 

[Seth_]

Scald also deals damage and just kills the grounds infernape has to predict to burn on the switch. Assuming we're still talking about defensive infernape, the grass resistance doesnt mean much of anything honestly. Youre not getting around anything like amoonguss anyways, serp just laughs at low kick and sets up on you, and breloom dies to secret sword from keldeo.

Amoonguss/tangrowth forces switch on Keldeo but not on Infernape which can burn them (which hurts the a lot) or deal damage with fire punch (iron fist boosted fire punch 2HKO amoongus with ez and makes infernape better scizor check). Tangrowth is a little bit more tricky due to earthquake but still get get burnt and walled. Both of them don't want to come on Infernape but are likely to come on Keldeo.

In what world Breloom switches in Keldeo?!

Running sr>taunt on defensive nape limits its ability to impair defensive cores at least somewhat effectively, as it gives even freer switchins to the likes of amoonguss or clefable. I personally prefer U-turn to either of those to grab momentum but maybe thats just me. Even if something like AoA infernape runs stealth rocks it has to give up valuble coverage meaning its going to be walled by clefable, waters, or heatran severely limiting its offensive potential. Defensive variants of infernape may not be burned by sableye but they cant hit sableye either leaving sableye free to knock off napes item, toxic nape, or even set up in the case of the rare calm mind variants.

Stealth rocks are overall nice option which allows your other mon run extra move like Fire Fang on SD chomp or spikes on ferro. I'd rather have rocks on Infernape and spikes on ferro than taunt on Infernape and rocks on ferro.

Also breaking stall it's not defensive infernape job so I consider this argument as invalid.

I really don't think nape is better than lucario, zapdos, zygarde, victini or like anything else in C+, and I don't agree that its better than much of anything in B- like crawdaunt, hydra, or diggersby as a wallbreaker. As I've already said I don't really see a ton of value in defensive infernape when resttalk keldeo exists, its just so outclassed that defensive nape is a pretty niche option.

Bisharp, Weavile and Scizor are top tier threads with high usage in both ladder and tournaments. Being great counter of them is by no words nichte job.

Rest talk Keldeo isn't really outclassing Infernape which I've proved in my previous post. Due to much higher healing, reliability in burning, better support option in taunt and rocks and lack in need of sleep talk Infernape proves itself to be more tenacious counter to those threads.

I'm nominating Infernape to B- for it's defensive set so I don't see any sense in comparing it to things like lucario, victini, crawdaunt, diggersby which has nothing in common with it's defensive set.

 

[Ramses]

Yeah Infernape shouldn't move a huge variety of reasons you're failing to grasp that Hailfall has partially described accurately. Sure, it's defensive set does in fact check what you noted, but that doesn't mean it does so fantastically well and it requires more support than it gives towards a team.

So there's no need to make this a 3 page long discussion over a mon like Infernape. It shouldn't rise since its defensive set isn't as good as you're exaggerating it to be and offensive sets are just bad anyway. And I'm sure that its already decided that its not loving anytime soon bar down.

 

[Kutscher]

Just going to clear up a few things about nape. Probably my last post on the matter because theres not much else to say and I dont really want to get into an argument.
156 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

Factor in misses, pp staling courtesy of protect, and mega sableye constantly recovering on you, and nape is not very likely to be breaking this. As for venu, with rocks up it has a 14% chance to 2HKO which is admittedly more severe taking into consdieration the low PP of synth, but look at this:

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 169-201 (57.6 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nape isnt a good venu check at all honestly it needs good rolls two times in a row AND venu to try and switch into it with rocks up. Now im not going to sit here and say nape necessarially has a bad matchup against stall, but its not as good as you make it out to be. It certainly doesn't "practically 6-0" when you take this into consideration.
Your logic doesnt quite follow here. You do say that it has two boosting moves and two priority moves, but you fail to explain how this gives it a good matchup against balance/offense. Nape has pitiful bulk leaving it easily knocked out trying to set up against offensive teams and even if it does get the opportunity to set up it is easily stopped cold by any number of viable and common checks such as rotom-w, latios, thundurus, talonflame, tornadus-t, scarf lando, and much more. Balance is one of np/sd nape's better matchups but again, most balances are carrying something fast enough to revenge kill to avoid being steamrolled by manaphy. Versatility doesn't always equal viability if the mon is still not particularly effective at most of its jobs like mega altaria for example. And also, to be clear, in my comparisons to keldeo I was strictly talking about the defensive infernape set, which was what seth was advocating a rise based on in his first post.

Scald also deals damage and just kills the grounds infernape has to predict to burn on the switch. Assuming we're still talking about defensive infernape, the grass resistance doesnt mean much of anything honestly. Youre not getting around anything like amoonguss anyways, serp just laughs at low kick and sets up on you, and breloom dies to secret sword from keldeo. Electrics will just volt switch on you and grab momentum regardless. Elecs that dont run volt switch like thundy can easily 2hko nape with tbolt while eating up its low kicks with ease. Running sr>taunt on defensive nape limits its ability to impair defensive cores at least somewhat effectively, as it gives even freer switchins to the likes of amoonguss or clefable. I personally prefer U-turn to either of those to grab momentum but maybe thats just me. Even if something like AoA infernape runs stealth rocks it has to give up valuble coverage meaning its going to be walled by clefable, waters, or heatran severely limiting its offensive potential. Defensive variants of infernape may not be burned by sableye but they cant hit sableye either leaving sableye free to knock off napes item, toxic nape, or even set up in the case of the rare calm mind variants.

I really don't think nape is better than lucario, zapdos, zygarde, victini or like anything else in C+, and I don't agree that its better than much of anything in B- like crawdaunt, hydra, or diggersby as a wallbreaker. As I've already said I don't really see a ton of value in defensive infernape when resttalk keldeo exists, its just so outclassed that defensive nape is a pretty niche option.

edit: keldeo gets taunt too fyi

i think that the set that "6-0 against stall" is a variation of UU NP set:

Infernape @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot

calcs agaisnt stall mons

+2 252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye: 219-258 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 320-378 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 424-500 (107.6 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 818-966 (244.9 - 289.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Amoonguss: 584-690 (135.1 - 159.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Unaware Clefable: 168-198 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock(if get some prior damage you win agaisnt this things, that's my point here, sry)
+2 252 SpA Infernape Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 36 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 256-302 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
and of course there are things like ttar and weavile

i think that CC>FB because you will only hit chansey anyway, and CC have a better acc, and i prefer lefties over LO because the only KO you will miss is on sableye wich can't do much back, and a good stall player may be able to win against LO nape with some predicts.

beside that i totally agree with you, nape can't do much against offense, it's frail, and it's definetly not as good as crawdaunt, diggersby, metagross and raikou(i know everybody thinks this is trash for some reason but the hype against this will die someday, i hope).
Infernape should stay C+

 

[Jaroda]

Agreed, its the mixed Nasty Plot set that does best against Stall (although U-Turn is nice too), and quite admirably all things considered that its a mixed attacker that can't be burned, and its STAB CC destroys some of the best special Fire switch ins like Chansey and Heatran. The most a Mega Sableye can reasonably do is Knock Off your item, as between Blaze and Nasty Plot it's going to be over powered most likely. IMO it looks better than a lot in C+ but not as good as much of B- rank, I think some replays would be warranted to really demonstrate its efficacy in the meta to justify a rise.

 

[kek123]

i think that the set that "6-0 against stall" is a variation of UU NP set:

Infernape @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot

calcs agaisnt stall mons

+2 252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye: 219-258 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 320-378 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 424-500 (107.6 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 818-966 (244.9 - 289.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Amoonguss: 584-690 (135.1 - 159.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Unaware Clefable: 168-198 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock(if get some prior damage you win agaisnt this things, that's my point here, sry)
+2 252 SpA Infernape Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 36 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 256-302 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
and of course there are things like ttar and weavile

i think that CC>FB because you will only hit chansey anyway, and CC have a better acc, and i prefer lefties over LO because the only KO you will miss is on sableye wich can't do much back, and a good stall player may be able to win against LO nape with some predicts.

beside that i totally agree with you, nape can't do much against offense, it's frail, and it's definetly not as good as crawdaunt, diggersby, metagross and raikou(i know everybody thinks this is trash for some reason but the hype against this will die someday, i hope).
Infernape should stay C+

I'm pretty sure when stall run unaware clefable it max spdef for manaphy , but at the same time the most common stall ABR stall doesn't run clefable so yea your point still stands I just though i'd point this out :)

 

[Gary]

Who the fuck cares if that Infernape set can beat stall? You have so many better stallbreakers out there which are actually good such as Heatran, Rain Dance Manaphy, LO Tornadus-T, SpD Talonflame, Mega Heracross, Terrakion, Crawdaunt, etc. Why you would use a garbage set like that just to beat one of the most matchup based playstyles in the tier is beyond me, and without Slack Off or defensive investment you can still lose to a +2 Bisharp and you can switch into Weavile maybe once, so its typing isn't even that great defensively otherwise when it can't take hits. Defensive Infernape is bad for its own reasons though, but I feel like it's already been talked about enough above me so no need to delve into that shit fest any deeper. No shit that a "stallbreaker" is good on the ladder when it's 75% stall anyway, but against most other teams you're just gonna be wishing you were using something else or a different set. Nape stays C+.