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[a0161613]

OK so cant say won this round and it wasn't even close so I'm not going to count the votes in the normal way. Porygon2 is now part of the team.

Nominations open up again on Friday but for now we need to figure out how we round out this team. I can't help but feel that we are still vulnerable to Thundurus and Fighting types, making Knock Off an inevitable threat as well.

 

[ethan06]

k so here's the team at a glance at this point:

As mentioned above, Thundurus + Conk rolls us, and we could potentially still have some Garchomp issues as well depending on the set (Scarf in particular carries coverage for Mence, Rotom and Ferrothorn, and does a clean 50% to Azu with Earthquake). I'm not sure there's anything in the game that can properly deal with both at once, so I'm prioritising with this nom. I feel like checking Thundurus is more of a priority as Azu is a hard counter to the standard AV Conk set and Thundurus can't switch in on a Choice Band Play Rough without significant investment, and we can check it with Mence as long as we don't bring it in on an Ice Punch. Therefore:

Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Knock Off

I've been pushing for Weavile for like four rounds now, but I still feel like a strong Ice-type would cover a lot of this team's unresolved issues very well. Weavile is less imperative now as we have solid checks to Greninja in Porygon2 and Scarf Rotom-H; however, I'm still nomming it over Mamoswine as it not only checks Thundurus and Garchomp, but also covers the still-problematic Gengar more effectively. Icicle Crash fits better here than Low Kick because it allows Weavile to reliably check unboosted Salamence and Garchomp. It also brings the flinch factor, just in case. Fake Out + Ice Shard gives us the ability to revenge Thundurus and Adamant Talonflame without having to eat a Thunder Wave or Brave Bird. Knock Off is the best move in the game.

A strong case could be made for Mamoswine in the last slot as well, and we should keep in mind that we still have a free item slot for Focus Sash.

 

[a0161613]

I was thinking about Mamo today for similar reasons and I've nommed it at least twice. I figure it boils down to Fake Out vs Ground typing. Knock Off from Mamo still hurts Gengar plenty.

 

[ethan06]

Weavile is faster than base Gengar, which means it can get a hit on it turn 1, before it eats an attack or a burn. Thunder Wave immunity and stronger Ice attacks vs. Fake Out and speed would be more accurate.

 

[Omastar68]

Sylveon Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 204 HP/ 52 Def/ 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Hyper Beam

Sylveon destroys both Conk and Thund with more reliability than even Weavile or Mamo. It gets past even Sun Thund, and doesn't take too much from any non-boosted attack(Sludge Bomb maybe? lol,) and isn't half as bothered by t-wave as Weavile. Conk is plainly outsped and OHKOd if Sylveon isn't locked into the wrong move, and Mach Punch does very little. Sylv can take Gengar's Sludge om and ohko with Psyshock or Shadow Ball, and always takes Chomp down to its sash at the very least, while almost always living an EQ from CB ones. Lati twins are easily destroyed by Hyper Voice, and even Specs Psyshock or Trick with a Scarf from either isn't too bad. Weakened Aegi can be revenged fairly easily too.

The set was made sorta hastily. Main thing is it is the most HP with max SpA to give Mega Blaziken only an 18.8% chance to oko with Flare Blirtz. Since Blazi isn't too much of a threat I don't think I didn't opt to take more outta HP. Hyper Beam is ok on Sylv, and I don't think any HP type is too necessary here, but I mostly picked it from laziness so I don't have to mess with IVs. HP Fire might be better. Main problem I see with this set is always dying to standard Mence's DE-Weavile and Mamo definitely do better vs. Mence.

 

[cant say]

We literally just added Porygon2 as our Thundurus check, we have Rotom-H who also checks it well, and Ferrothorn can deal with any of them lacking Focus Blast. Why on earth do we need a fourth..? As for Conkeldurr, Azumarill basically counters it and seeing Salamence in team preview should scare most of them off (they don't know we aren't running max attack Double Edge, and we can bring in unevolved Mence and set up a Dragon Dance on Conk thanks to Intimidate anyway).

We've already said in this thread that Gengar is one of SpD Mence's set up targets, so why do we want something that checks it? Hypnosis is scary, but they have to hit it, and if they do we tank a Hex, and from bulkier Gengar's (the most common version of Hypnosis spammers), we have a good chance of tanking 2. Unless they hit Hypnosis and get a three-turn sleep out of it, we get a Dragon Dance off and beat it. Any other Gengar that isn't Hypnosis is flat out beaten as well. If for some reason we can't use Mence to beat Gengar, we have Porygon2 in the back who usually comes out on top anyway.

Garchomp is dealt with by Azumarill (literally the reason we added it), Porygon2, and Ferrothorn. Again, why do we want a fourth answer to it..?

----

I honestly think the team has good enough defensive synergy / answers to meta threats that we should just look to add in a secondary Mega option to use against teams that are super problematic for Salamence. Literally any variant of Mega Gengar would fit well, but deciding on which one is kinda tricky. I think an offensive one would be best, as our team is pretty passive.

Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb / Sludge Wave (if we can track one down)
- Icy Wind / Focus Blast
- Destiny Bond

So basically this pairs with Azumarill really well and is just generally really good.. It would provide some steady offense if we need it and trap / eliminate threats that we need gone. I think using Sitrus / BD Azu would be way better anyway, but if we ended up adding this I would definitely push for us to change Azu's set.

Alternatively, I've been testing a team that is actually pretty similar to this with Mega Beedrill in the last slot. I've had mixed/overall positive results with it, like I said I'm still testing it so I'm trying to figure out how to play it, but it's pretty fun.

Beedrill @ Beedrillite
Ability: Swarm
Level: 50
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Def / 4 SpD / 140 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Poison Jab
- Protect
- Drill Run / Knock Off

So mostly this is a mega that can beat Sylveon and Greninja, two things we don't want to bring Salamence in on. This spread is something I've been trying out, it basically allows you to live a Sucker Punch from Adamant Kang so you can pick it off, while still outspeeding Mega Gengar. Although bringing it up to 220 so that you oustpeed max Scarf Heatran would be good because I've been bopped by one or two of them. Or we can just use our analysis spread...

So yeah I like either of these.

 

[6tennis]

cant say's beedrill

 

[Omastar68]

Are we voting already? I'm voting for Beedrill too. I wish it could outspeed max base 135s as well, but that's prolly not worth dying to Kang's Sucker about half the time from full or hitting with less power. I like Drill Run instead of Knock Off, but I'm fine with either.

 

[a0161613]

We're not voting already.

 

[freekhoorn]

I really like cant says idea of gengar because it really sets itself apart from our other mega salamence because it is specially attacking and covers fairies and psychic pokemon like screens espeon that salamence is less good against. It is also a perfect glue pokemon for any team and i dont see a glaring weakness in the five pokemon we have, the worst typing weakness is rock because we have two mons weak to it while only have one resistance to it but that is not really a big problem. This is already a pretty good team at least typewise defensively.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

I think an elephant in the room we kind of forgot about is Mega Heracross, a mon that absolutely shreds half of our team by itself (Porygon2, Ferrothorn, Azumarill). While we have Scarf Rotom at our disposal, Mega Heracross will get a free turn if it comes in after an Overheat or a predicted Trick Attempt. Salamence, our #1 answer to it, hates the risk of coming in on a Rock Blast, which Heracross has absolutely nothing to lose by clicking on a predicted switch (and it readily forces out 3 of the Pokemon I mentioned above), since our only switch-ins to Rock Blast get shredded by Close Combat. I like the offensive Mega Gengar nomination because it gives us something fast that can at least finish it off, and it means we won't have to pick Salamence every time we see a Heracross...but in light of that I would like to nominate:

Aegislash @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Atk
Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword / Flash Cannon
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield

Weakness Policy Aegislash was something I had in mind thinking how effective Aegislash would be at pivoting and turning games around by itself for the team with Weakness Policy. It has great synergy with the team (despite having another Steel-type already, we have like 3-4 Ground checks and 3 fire checks) and it's a hard counter to Mega Heracross, Conkeldurr, and Cresselia, another mon that kind of just drops one on the team by itself. I noticed Ethan06's max HP/Def Relaxed spread for this set on the first page, and honestly it wouldn't be a bad idea considering some Hera variants like running Earthquake specifically to deal with Aegislash. This set also gives our team some more priority outside of Azumarill's Aqua Jet, and gives us something that can potentially finish off a Mega Gengar for the team in a pinch.

 

[a0161613]

Keep the nominations coming in. We will start voting for the last slot on Tuesday.

Aegislash is a great shout and I'll can totally get the logic behind it.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Aegislash for life. By far one of my Gen 6 favs.
I never did like WP though. Is it possible to nom same mon different set? lol.

 

[Omastar68]

Now i'm kinda liking Aegi instead. Didn't think about Hera as critically as CSB did-just wrote it off cuz Mence and scarf Rotom-H ohkos standard. But it is sorta a problem. Aegis is very often WP. After that is Lum and Lefties. TBH i'm not that crazy about Lum. Aegi is often specially oriented, so doesn't mind burns that much. It's already immune to Toxic, freeze is crazy rare, and paralysis, while still annoying, makes Aegi slower to hopefully help avoid hits in blade form. Sleep is bad, but not that common really bar Loom's Spore, and Ferro can switch in on that(or else run Safety Goggles.)

Lefties is mostly the SubToxic set. I guess that could work...tho since CSB nommed that once or twice way earlier but not this time i'm inclined to think he doesn't think it' be so great anymore. One thing I was wondering about is Air Balloon, although this team is quite strong to round already. It'd make Aegi a full stop to Hera and Chomp, and help tremendously with Exca...not that that's too big of a problem really.

 

[a0161613]

Aegislash for life. By far one of my Gen 6 favs.
I never did like WP though. Is it possible to nom same mon different set? lol.

Sure.

I've been thinking about the Mega Heracross issue and wonder if it could be fixed by fitting something like Aerial Ace or HP Flying on a lure of some sort. On the right pick it could be a catch all for most fighting types.

 

[6tennis]

i should mention that EQ hera beats aegis with bullet seed and EQ soooo

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

I mean I'm willing to change the set I nommed if others agree there's something more effective out there. Balloon as Omastar said is a cool choice but it's kinda worthless if you get caught by Rock Blast/Bullet Seed switching in. Also, it is still a somewhat-thin chance for Aegislash to lose to switching in on Bullet Seed/Rock Blast + EQ:

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 35-45 (20.9 - 26.9%) -- approx. 1.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 116-138 (69.4 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Without Stealth Rock up, you'd need a high roll + a min roll of either move to actually lose. Otherwise Aegislash simply gets a boost and blows Heracross's stuff into next week. What we could do, aside from just coming up with a whole new set altogether, is change the EVs. I mentioned Ethan06's max HP/Def spread on WP Aegislash because that would be incredibly ideal, as it completely avoids the 2HKO of coming into Bullet Seed/Rock Blast followed by Earthquake, even with Rocks up:

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 25-35 (14.9 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 90-106 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and even without any offensive investment, +2 Shadow Ball followed by Shadow Sneak is a clean kill:

+2 0 SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 123-145 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 58-69 (37.4 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Only way you lose 1v1 is if the Heracross player manages to predict you successfully and click Earthquake on the switch-in...still kinda unlikely, because aside from being a lot less common than its other coverage moves (though still on a large percent of Heracross) our team has like 2 mons that would both punish Heracross completely if they switched in on Earthquake...so it's doubtful they'd try and go for it. And even if Heracross did, you're able to get off a free +2 Shadow Sneak and send in either Salamence or Rotom to finish the job.

 

[Omastar68]

Checked, and the bulky Aegi never 2hkos Cress. However, with just 84 SpA EVs the chance becomes 92.2% to 2hko. Any less SpA is a much lower chance. Most Cress aren't Lefties or Sitrus, nor would they trigger WP if we go with that, so this is a good way to get past them while still being bulky for Hera. Aegi can still switch in on Bullet Seed then take an EQ every time without rocks, most even with.

 

[ethan06]

I have a lot of experience with physdef aegi (it's literally called "the ethan special" in cant say's calc lol) and it never has any issue with cress. you can honestly just spam shadow ball until cress gets a drop or runs out of moonblasts. cm cress has 7% usage so this matchup is still tipped in aegi's favour. not worth losing any of that bulk* in order to deal more damage to something you already check really well. if anything you'll want to invest into attack so that +2 sacred sword always OHKOs 252 HP kang, which takes 140 Atk EVs. i don't recommend that tho because it puts you at a pretty significant risk of dying to crit EQ, and makes switching in on scrappy attacks an awful lot harder. don't bother with flash cannon, even max quiet can't take down bulky kang at +2

*here are some hits that aegi misses out on tanking without full investment:
+1 252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 152-182 (91 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO - full physdef can tank some crazy shit
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Aegislash-Shield on a critical hit: 162-192 (97 - 114.9%) -- 90.6% chance to OHKO
and the relevant one:
252 Atk Mega Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 72+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 92-110 (55 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
max/max is a roll but it's 90% in aegi's favour so

 

[cant say]

Mega Heracross isn't the problem, because our Salamence sets up on it easy thanks to Intimidate, Roost spam, and Rock Blast's inaccuracy, and we have Rotom-H in emergencies. What's looking tricky is common Heracross teams / cores, since our Salamence loses to Cresselia and Thundurus, and our answers to them (Ferrothorn and Porygon2) are beaten handily by Heracross.

Aegislash isn't necessarily a bad idea, but it has kind of an awkward matchup against Heracross cores, since Heatran comes in and pretty much forces it out, and Thundurus is tricky with Thunder Wave and possibly Taunt, Nasty Plot, Substitute, or SwagPlay. It's also kind of redundant, in my opinion, to use something that beats Hera when we already have answers to it, but not its common partners (barring Cresselia, obviously).

I was looking at some options, the things I came up with looked good for addressing these problems but kinda overlap with things we have on the team already... Life Orb / Specs Sylveon looked cool since it dismantles the core on its own, similar thing for Mega Gardevoir (and everyone knows I like double megas). The problem is that we already have Azumarill so we'd be doubling up on Fairy-types. Alternatively, we can go double-dragon with Life Orb / Specs Hydreigon, who also single-handedly beats Heracross teams.

Sylveon

Sylveon @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 28 HP / 4 Def / 248 SpA / 228 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Hyper Voice
- Hidden Power Ground
- Psyshock
- Hyper Beam / Snore / filler

Gardevoir

Mega Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs 236 HP / 240 SpA / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Hyper Voice
- Hidden Power Ground
- Calm Mind
- Taunt / Destiny Bond / Psyshock

Hydreigon

Hydreigon @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power

 

[Omastar68]

I have a lot of experience with physdef aegi (it's literally called "the ethan special" in cant say's calc lol) and it never has any issue with cress. you can honestly just spam shadow ball until cress gets a drop or runs out of moonblasts. cm cress has 7% usage so this matchup is still tipped in aegi's favour. not worth losing any of that bulk* in order to deal more damage to something you already check really well. if anything you'll want to invest into attack so that +2 sacred sword always OHKOs 252 HP kang, which takes 140 Atk EVs. i don't recommend that tho because it puts you at a pretty significant risk of dying to crit EQ, and makes switching in on scrappy attacks an awful lot harder. don't bother with flash cannon, even max quiet can't take down bulky kang at +2

*here are some hits that aegi misses out on tanking without full investment:
+1 252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 152-182 (91 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO - full physdef can tank some crazy shit
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Aegislash-Shield on a critical hit: 162-192 (97 - 114.9%) -- 90.6% chance to OHKO
and the relevant one:
252 Atk Mega Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 72+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 92-110 (55 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
max/max is a roll but it's 90% in aegi's favour so

xd i'm dum. Was just thinking to kill Cress as quick as possible, but she really doesn't do much so it's prolly not a good idea to go for that much SpA.

cant say makes a good point that it's not really Hera that's the problem but stuff that pairs with it.

I think somethin that can switch in on more stuff and mayb also pivot would be good, since it could take a hit and then mess with w/e switch in. VoltTurn can be really annoying. Can't think of what'd work specifically, but i'll try.

EDIT: I was thinking bulky Volt Switch Thund could, but then I realized it baits Rock Blast from Hera, and there's nothing we can bring in on that with VS very safely. Another one I thot about was Magnezone. Perfect vs most Cress and even Thund. Sturdy can take CC or EQ from Hera while multi-hit moves do nothing. Then you can slow VS to Mence.

 

[a0161613]

Not going to lie, Hydreigon had crossed my mind. In addition to that my testing had been based around double Megas.

I'd been considering Metagross for that and it was my next idea.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Metagross is epic, and I always did want to see a good MetaMence team <3
For Aegislash, yeah, all I would change is a bulkier spread; maybe Sitrus / Lefties if all else fails. Big fan of Sub Aegis but I haven't used it in Singles yet, just Doubles/Rotation. Fucking disgusting in both metas, but anyway.

So I'mma steal it:

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Jolly, 252 Atk, 4 Def, 252 Speed
Ability: Clear Body (Tough Claws)

- Iron Head
- Bullet Punch / Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Zen Headbutt

Standard spread right out of the dex, not much need to vary it. Covers us against Zapdos and Thundurus in a pinch if Rotom-H is down, and Ferrothorn can cover basically every non-Mega need.
Even if Non-Mega, still handles Heracross. Max Speed Jolly Hera outruns, but is beaten by Zen headbutt + Bullet Punch from 100% HP. Bulkier, slower sets simply eat Zen Headbutt + Iron Head. Non-crit EQ will not KO after SR.
Metagross + Azumarill + Rotom-H is a fantastic core I've been using for a while now too; they cover a ton, so Metagross fits right in. Zen Headbutt mauls Fighting types if we can't spam Mence for whatever reason.
Heracross has literally no hope if Metagross goes Mega unless it gets a crit EQ. We have 2 Ground immunes so EQ spam is questionable.
Can sweep teams weakened by Azumarill / Rotom-H / Porygon-2. All weaknesses covered by remainder of team.
Also supports P2 with a Toxic immune and massive anti-Fighting pressure. Not sure how we kill Khan though, and EQ + Rough Skin from ScarfChomp will usually drop Metagross in a way that loses the tiebreaker.

tl;dr its a flying fucking battering ram, you cannot go wrong with a 2078 pound flying battering ram when you want to kill shit.

edit: 4 Def stops 252+ Mega Heracross from KOing non-Mega Metagross with EQ; 4 HP has a 6.3% chance to die.

 

[cant say]

Not that I'm a fan of Metagross for this team (it doesn't address any of the issues raised so far), but you would definitely want Earthquake on it (probably over Bullet Punch) since this team has nothing for Heatran if we aren't using Salamence. Azumarill is just a soft check, since you can't switch into a Specs-boosted Fire move, and the threat of Will-O-Wisp is pretty significant.

Not to mention that Metagtoss is a Pokemon that you build around from the start, not add in at the end, since it requires more support to work than a lot of mons, and I don't think we have the right team to use it. Maybe in the next CCaT..

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Not that I'm a fan of Metagross for this team (it doesn't address any of the issues raised so far), but you would definitely want Earthquake on it (probably over Bullet Punch) since this team has nothing for Heatran if we aren't using Salamence. Azumarill is just a soft check, since you can't switch into a Specs-boosted Fire move, and the threat of Will-O-Wisp is pretty significant.

Not to mention that Metagtoss is a Pokemon that you build around from the start, not add in at the end, since it requires more support to work than a lot of mons, and I don't think we have the right team to use it. Maybe in the next CCaT..

Actually yeah Earthquake would work; gonna patch that in. Doubles brain often forgets about unSTAB'd EQ existing.
It does need a lot of support, but like I said earlier Rotom-H and Azumarill are fantastic support for it and we already settled on those. lol.
Yeah, it wants Hydreigon as a partner too but Mence is by far the next best choice. We're better off against Heracross with MegaMence + MegaGross too and that was very much a need. Hydra loses to Scarf Heracross in almost any scenario (SR + Fire Blast Scarf Hydra, only way you win) and Mega Heracross can stomach a LO Flamethrower with a tad of bulk. Even uninvested it's a 31% chance to KO.
Metagross gives no fuck about what set + coverage it is; it wins. Also adds an extra Fairy check since Rotom-H simply does not counter Fairy types at all, aside from Mawile/Klefki.
Rotom-H would actually be my go-to for Heatran. Immune to its life and can spam Volt Switch / Thunderbolt all day. If you do Trick it a Scarf, intended or otherwise, Azumarill clobbers it and Mence gets a free switch / setup.

Honestly, Mega Gengar is more of a threat than Heatran imo.