CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

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HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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I think Levitate is a very bad idea. I don't think being immune to ground type attacks is very pro concept at all, and it needlessly inflates the number of Pokemon that we threaten, and threatening ground types really wasn't part of the discussion last thread. It sounds like Levitate is mostly being discussed for its ability to avoid spikes / toxic spikes, and I think Magic Guard does a better job at this. Magic Guard potentially allows CAP22 to absorb toxics (or burns if special) allowing it to later not care about paralysis at all, which is a huge concern that has prompted other abilities such as Natural Cure. It's fairly obvious that so many of the great abilities discussed so far are aimed at dealing with status. If Magic Guard helps deal with status far better than Levitate, helps us with the immunity to hazards that Levitate tries to provide, and doesn't needlessly add Ground-types to the list of things we counter, then I think Magic Guard is far healthier than Levitate. Magic Guard isn't my favorite status reduction ability, but at least it does something in that department, which Levitate fails to address.

I also want to add that I like the sheer reliability of Limber. Paralysis is the most damaging status to our concept, since we opted to be FPS. Natural Cure is a general catch all status healer, but there's still a 25% chance that a CAP22 using Parting Shot to pivot out would be fully paralyzed if afflicted. Limber gets around this. I'm not saying I think Limber is necessarily better than Natural Cure at all, but that it's narrower range but greater reliability helps to differentiate it.

And if it seems like I'm dancing around it too much, yes I obviously like Natural Cure a lot. Just trying to focus on these lesser-discussed abilities in my post.
 
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Post still WIP


Just wanted to post a little resource here to show us how powerful the abilities we're discussing are. Pokemon Showdown ranks abilities on a scale of 5 to -2, with 5 being the best and -2 being the worst. Discussed abilities have been bolded. Banned abilities have been crossed out. My own suggestions have been italicized. Bolded abilities have been colour coded based on my personal opinions. Green, Yellow, and Red mean Agree, On the Fence, and Disagree. I'll give a short bit of reasoning at the end.

5:
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Huge Power
Moody
Parental Bond
Primordial Sea
Pure Power
Shadow Tag
Stance Change
Wonder Guard

4.5:
Arena Trap
Drizzle
Drought
Fur Coat
Gale Wings
Impostor
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard

Magnet Pull
Prankster
Protean
Sand Stream
Simple
Speed Boost

4:
Adaptability
Aerilate
Contrary
Download
Illusion
Multiscale
Multitype
No Guard
Pixilate
Refrigerate
Regenerator
Serene Grace

Sheer Force
Snow Warning
Tough Claws

3.5:
Compoundeyes
Dry Skin
Flower Veil
Intimidate
Levitate

Lightningrod

Mega Launcher
Mold Breaker
Moxie
Natural Cure
Sap Sipper
Shed Skin
Storm Drain
Technician
Teravolt
Thick Fat
Tinted Lens
Turboblaze
Volt Absorb

3:
Air Lock
Bulletproof
Cloud Nine
Dark Aura
Fairy Aura
Filter
Flash Fire
Forecast
Guts
Hustle
Infiltrator
Iron Barb
Iron Fist
Limber
Motor Drive
Poison Heal

Reckless
Rock Head
Rough Skin
Scrappy
Skill Link
Solid Rock
Strong Jaw
Sturdy
Toxic Boost
Trace
Unaware

Water Veil

2.5:
Aftermath
Chlorophyll
Competitive
Defiant

Early Bird
Flare Boost
Flower Gift
Gooey
Harvest
Heatproof
Marvel Scale
Overcoat
Quick Feet
Sand Rush
Shield Dust
Swift Swim
Synchronize
Victory Star

2:
Analytic
Anger Point
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Blaze
Clear Body
Cursed Body
Effect Spore
Flame Body
Hydration
Immunity
Insomnia
Justified
Mummy
Overgrow
Poison Point
Poison Touch
Sand Force
Soundproof
Static
Suction Cups
Swarm
Sweet Veil
Torrent
Vital Spirit
White Smoke
Wonder Skin

1.5:
Aroma Veil
Frisk

Hyper Cutter
Ice Body
Inner Focus
Liquid Ooze
Pressure
Rain Dish
Rattled
Sand Veil
Snow Cloak

Solar Power
Super Luck
Unnerve

1:
Anticipation
Battle Armor
Color Change
Cute Charm
Damp
Forewarn
Gluttony
Keen Eye
Leaf Guard
Light Metal
Oblivious
Own Tempo
Shell Armor
Sniper
Steadfast
Tangled Feet

0.5:
Big Pecks
Grass Pelt
Magma Armor
Rivalry
Stench
Weak Armor

0:
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Minus
Plus
Runaway
Symbiosis
Telepathy

-1:
Defeatist
Heavy Metal
Klutz
Normalize
Stall
Zen Mode

-2:
Cheek Pouch
Magician
Pickup
Pickpocket
Slow Start
Sticky Hold
Truant
Unburden


Reasoning
WIP


If there's anything I missed, please let me know!
As more abilities are discussed I'll edit this post.
 
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Some of my thoughts:
Prankster and Regenerator have had their broken-ness talked to death about.

Natural Cure and Levitate are both pro concept in my eyes. They both encourage pivoting in different ways. With Natural Cure it is encouraged to switch one way or another in order to get rid of status while Levitate makes it easier to switch in and out by adding another immunity as well as making entry hazards ineffective. Dry Skin is similar in some ways because it also adds an immunity as well as making fire types more of a threat.

Magician and Pickpocket aren't necessarily pro or anticoncept, but it will help CAP check dark types, seeing as it allows it to take an item after taking a knock off, which it probably will seeing it's 4x immunity.

Unless CAP is made a special attacker, I, like many others, disagree with Contrary, seeing as it's supposed to threaten walls, most likely with its stronger fighting STAB, which has boosts associated with it (cc and superpower, maybe hammer arm too). I won't completely rule it out, as it does have the chance of being special or having hi jump kick as its strong fighting STAB, but right now, it definitely is more anticoncept than most things.
 

Deck Knight

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As far as offensive abilities go, I infinitely prefer Serene Grace to Pixilate. I don't buy the argument Fairy moves are "too weak." If Sylveon did not get Pixilate it would still happily use Moonblast. It wouldn't KO as many things but it would still be used, because Fairy STAB from a relatively bulky Pokemon that can WishPass would still be metagame relevant.

What makes me like Serene Grace more is that the SpA and Attack drops are the relevant part of the moves, and while Play Rough's initial 10% is questionable, Moonblast's 30% isn't. Let's also not forget that Fighting has its own stat-lowering options, Rock Smash and Focus Blast. Rock Smash would still be weak but it would always lower Defense, and Focus Blast's chance would be doubled to 20%. There's a few other moves that benefit from this but this isn't moves discussion so I'm sticking with reasonable base assumptions.

It's tough for me to decide between it and Natural Cure as the primary ability because both alter the next discussion, Stats, in significant ways. Because this is a Parting Shot mon we can already assume some calcs will be at -1, something that not having Parting Shot would make very relevant. Natural Cure on the other hand impacts how much residual damage CAP 22 takes overall because Toxic can reasonably be assumed to be hitting it for 6% or 12% each time, if at all. I think both of these moves have had the best cases made for them as a primary ability with this tying.
 

cbrevan

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There's been a lot of abilities suggested so far and I want to give my thoughts on each of them. There are a couple standout abilities to me and a lot of lackluster ones for what we want with this CAP.

Natural Cure: Just like everyone else in this thread has said, Natural Cure seems to be one of the best abilities for this concept by both mitigating our Paralysis weakness and helping our matchup against passive Pokemon. I think the ability to for the most part ignore Toxic is the most powerful aspect of this ability as it limits the way passive Pokemon can wear down CAP 22. The CAP will most certainly be engineered to come in and out of battle effectively throughout a match, which goes right along with this ability.

Serene Grace: I do not understand the appeal of this ability. Has anyone actually taken a look at the potential move choices that we could use with this ability? Besides Moonblast, which is really the only STAB move CAP would have access to that takes advantage of this ability, the majority of moves with secondary effects have percent chances in the tens and twenties, which aren't nearly enough to justify Serene Grace. Of the 30% and above move options only a small handful would realistically appeal to this project, as many coverage options either work against our threalist or are simply too bad to use. I just don't see how a 30% special attack drop and the potential to synergize with one or two other moves effectively is more useful than other abilities that are both more reliable and actually help address part of what we want to threaten. There are abilities that have reliable, albeit situational, effects that the CAP can make the most out of, and then there is this ability which gives us a random chance that we will never be able to take advantage of because of its random nature.

Unaware: The main use I can see from Unaware is Parting Shot out of Pokemon that would normally be faster than us with a boost, such as Dragon Dancers, or to revenge kill said setup sweepers. Outside of that, Unaware doesn't really help us address setup sweepers due to our weakness to common setup sweepers, namely Aurumoth, and it doesn't help our team with setup sweepers the CAP can't handle itself. This ability seems like it would take away from its role as a Parting Shot user and turn it into a conditional revenge killer.

Prankster: This ability goes directly against our threatlist by allowing us to completely disregard Scarf users and slower Priority users. The only benefit I can see is helping work around Pranskster Taunt, in which case I'd rather we used an ability that doesn't go against our threatlist such as Aroma Veil.

Regenerator: As much as I love how this ability would synergize with Parting Shot, I don't like how powerful the ability itself is. Free healing every time CAP comes in extends our longevity by an incredible amount that nothing else can come close to. Balancing the powerful effects of this ability may be too big a task for this project.

Poison Heal: Similarly to Regenerator, this is an potent ability that would significantly increase the longetivty of the CAP while putting massive pressure on passive Pokemon that rely on chip damage or Toxic to break down Pokemon. Honestly the biggest detraction to this ability is the complete loss of an offensive item, which severely limits our damage output and ability to threaten out Pokemon on a 1v1 basis.

Limber/Electric-type Immunity: I prefer Natural Cure over these abilities because of how they only address paralysis, which isn't the status I see threatening CAP the most. As some others have pointed out, we're either faster than common paralysis users or threatened out by them, which makes the situations where a dedicated paralysis immunity is greater than a free Refresh few.

Levitate: This is a cool ability in that it helps us threaten out common Pokemon, namely Colossoil, Landorus-t, and Garchomp, as well as giving us greater switch in opportunities and a spikes/tspikes/webs immunity. However, I don't think these qualities are enough to justify a type immunity ability for CAP 22. Creating a Ground immunity does nothing to address our threatlist and instead helps us beat Pokemon we already beat, such as Colossoil and Garchomp.

Contrary/Defiant/Competitive: I don't think these abilities are warranted as they're primary use is to punish Magic Bouncers and Intimidate users. Seeing as how we already threaten our hit neutrally all of the common Pokemon with these abilities I don't think these abilities would be more useful than other options.

Rattled: This is a poor choice of an ability as the speed boost would interfere with our threatlist.

Unburden: This ability is horrible for this CAP because for three reasons 1) it's a single use ability while we want a Pokemon that can come in and out of battle multiple times throughout a match, 2) it encourages CAP to stay in to make the most out of Unburden, which takes away from its pivoting role, and 3) it allows CAP to ignore Scarfers, which goes against our threatlist.

Scrappy: I'm not sure about this ability as we're already super effective against Mega Sableye and we hit all other ghost types besides Gengar and Kitsunoh neutrally with our Fairy STAB. Of those two left, only Kitsunoh is affected negatively by Scrappy, and given how frail Kitsunoh is in general and how prone it is to Pursuit I don't think an entire ability dedicated to overcoming it is warranted.

Reckless: This ability seems mediocre as its only real application is Hi Jump Kick as the recoil from other recoil moves would wear down CAP too quickly in combination with hazard damage from switching constantly.

Intimidate: Another powerful ability, Intimidate automatically inflates out physical tankiness while also allowing us to completely neuter physical attackers with the combination of Intimidate and Parting Shot. -2 in an offensive stat is a massive debuff that signifcantly decreases a Pokemon's damage output and isn't something we should be taking lightly. My greatest concern with this ability is how well it would synergize with setup sweepers in conjunction with CAP 22. Significantly easing the setup of Pokemon such as Aurumoth, Cawmodore, Charizard X, and many others for such little opportunity cost just seems way too powerful to me.

Pixilate: I don't see why this ability is needed when we can tailor our offensive stats to threaten any Pokemon we deem necessary. There decently powered Fairy moves on either side of the spectrum, so I don't think Pixilate is needed to provide a critically needed STAB move either. In response to Bughouse's point about how crazy OU Fairy types are offensively, have you considered that the reason why these Pokemon are top threats and other Fairy-types aren't is because of how lackluster the other Fairy-types are? Just because Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, and Mega Gardevoir are massive threats in OU doesn't mean the CAP needs to be on par with these Pokemon offensively to be successful.

Frisk/Forewarn: These are ultimately lackluster abilities because they are random in nature and never guaranteed to give the user helpful information. More importantly, scouting can be done more efficiently without having to give CAP 22 an ability that does nothing to address its threatlist or improve how it can use Parting Shot.

Trace: This is also a horrible ability because of how unreliable it is and its potential to have unwanted interaction with our threatlist. Overall there are a lot of better options.

Dry Skin: I think people are over emphasizing the small Fire damage increase and overlooking the fact that we gain a complete immunity to a typing that has no bearing on our threatlist. Dry Skin seems like a generic useful ability that doesn't do much to help our concept.

Justified: I don't think this ability is that useful since we lose the boost by pivoting and have to rely on the opponent not predicting us sending in a 4x Dark resistant Pokemon into their Dark-type. We deter spamming Knock Off and other Dark-type moves just by being a Pokemon that takes little damage from it.

Aroma Veil: This is an interesting ability that allows us to work around Prankster Taunt users without hurting our matchup against other priority users and Scarfers. However, I'm not sure if the effect would be useful in most matchups compared to other abilities such as Natural Cure.

Pickpocket/Magician: These are horrible abilities that rarely see use because its almost always more useful to retain your own item than randomly steal another Pokemon's. Additionally, they depend on the opponent using Knock Off on CAP, which isn't guaranteed and is in fact discouraged by our typing.

Magic Bounce: Now this is an interesting suggestion. The ability itself is generically good and has a powerful effect, but unlike Regenerator and Pixilate, Magic Bounce is not useful in most matchups as they are. The most important things to consider about this ability is that it achieve the status immunity (at least from direct status moves) that other abilities grant, while also giving us a powerful way to pressure passive Pokemon. In this respect its similiar to Poison Heal, but unlike Poison Heal CAP would still have access to an offensive item. Magic Bounce would limit how tanky we can make this CAP but would not be impossible to balance since it is completely useless against direct attacks. Another cool thing about this ability is that it would deter passive Pokemon from using status moves against it completely, which synergizes well with Parting Shot and also discourages the opponent from trying to status our switch-ins.
 
While Natural Cure is the obvious choice for the reasons stated above and everywhere around, it still helps mostly against other status than our main concern, which is Paralysis. It's still a great possibility, but I'd like to propose:

Quick Feet. Getting only speed on anyway fast mon when statused - and keeping it throughout switches - doesn't face as much trouble as other boosting abilities (like Contrary and stuff, or even that anti-Concept Unburden) from becoming a sweeper. One possible trouble I can see with this choice is running an Orb set (because of pivoting, most probably Toxic Orb) for the cost of losing an offensive item and outspeeding some of the Scarfers we want to be threatened by, making sure mainly Keldeo doesn't ever want not only switch into us, but also doesn't want to try to revenge-kill us. What is good here, however, is that it actually actively discourages the use of Status on us while not threatening to clean sweep. It also removes the main trouble Paralysis brings with the speed drop, while making still some lucky parahax effects apply to us, if the mon that paralyzed us was to use it (that is, typically, if it has at least some offensive prowess - the fully passive walls wouldn't make much of it). Unlike other options, it would also still enable the weardown from poison/toxic/burn, but allow us punish it sometimes. I think of Quick Feet as of Limber on steroids.

From the other ones, I can see the meaning of Levitate and like it, dislike Regenerator for the obvious resilience boost it gives, like Intimidate as a way to help other mons setup very cheaply, dislike Magic Guard for being, well, on Mega Crucibelle as well as for how it covers so wide range of possibilities and am on the fence with Magic Bounce, but probably like it. Namely, I like its interaction with hazard setting and direct status, as well as that it doesn't cover all status possibilities (hello Body Slam, Scald and Discharge). Serene Grace is a weird option I'm not entirely opposed to, but mostly I see it as an Ability of the type "either it's broken or it does nothing", whereas we want mostly the choices inbetween.
 

Deck Knight

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A discussion in which Regenerator and Prankster are panned for being too strong then brings up Magic Bounce...

Yeah, all I need to say on that.

Serene Grace on the other hand has plenty of non-useless applications outside of flinch (the broken thing people worry about), from Force Palm which is STAB and would have 60% paralysis, to coverage for other fairies like Iron Tail (60% def drop) or nearly any poison move with 60% poison, silly things like Charge Beam and Fiery Dance with a 100% SpA boost, even base 20% stuff like Shadow Ball and Crunch becomes semi-reliable secondary effects. Anyway, we all know what Serene Grace does and this isn't movepool. Suffice it to say for any discussion where you can tailor-make competitive effects it applies to, Serene Grace will never, ever fall into the useless or superfluous category.

That said since we've been talking about damage boosting abilities, here's one we haven't discussed yet: Mega Launcher. Mega Launcher Aura Sphere is as strong as Focus Blast without the miss chance. Dark and Dragon coverage don't interfere with our threatlist too much, and in fact ML Dark Pulse heavily threatens Mega Metagross, Jirachi, and Kitsunoh. Most of the Fire-types we discussed are unaffected - calculation-wise anyway - because we could have run Focus Blast, but Poison types become an even more reliable switchin because it boosts Special Fighting STAB. Yeah Dark and Dragon Pulse do more than they would otherwise, but clicking Aura Sphere is the easiest solution and ML Dark/Dragon Pulse still isn't SE.

That said Natural Cure is still the strongest ability I like that I think is still reasonable, and Aroma Veil's Taunt immunity is very appealing.
 
I think people are over-exaggerating what CAP 22 can do with Serene Grace. At best, our CAP will be able to abuse either Play Rough or Moonblast's high secondary effect chances (EDIT: Play Rough only has a 10% chance, not 30%); keep in mind that Hippowdon, Skarmory, and other passive mons are mons that we want to threaten. Tailoring our CAP so it can abuse Serene Grace does very little to help it beat Hippowdon and Skarmory. Most of our proposed abilities will not anyways, but Serene Grace has larger implications towards what CAP 22's movepool will look like, and we need to keep our options open rather than narrow them down more than is necessary with Serene Grace. Do not cite Serene Grace's endless possibilities towards abusing it, for while that is technically true, few of those shenanigans will give us much insurance against passive Pokemon.
 
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Bughouse

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I'm not sure why anyone is so focused on bulky Pokemon like Hippowdon or Skarmory. Our CAP literally has a move that pivots out and makes these walls easier to break through with the next mon... or in Skarmory's case could even just be trapped by a magnet. These Pokemon are not the problem. The problem is actually inducing the opponent to switch into these 2 pokemon in the first place. Which we won't be able to do without a very strong offensive presence that forces switches.
 
I'm not sure why anyone is so focused on bulky Pokemon like Hippowdon or Skarmory. Our CAP literally has a move that pivots out and makes these walls easier to break through with the next mon... or in Skarmory's case could even just be trapped by a magnet. These Pokemon are not the problem. The problem is actually inducing the opponent to switch into these 2 pokemon in the first place. Which we won't be able to do without a very strong offensive presence that forces switches.
I mentioned Hippowdon and Skarmory in particular because they are capable of running phazing moves, especially Skarmory, who could essentially Whirlwind out whatever mon comes in as a result of Parting Shot.

It is not that difficult to create a CAP with a strong offensive presence, especially with the existence of Life Orb. The inevitably of Life Orb was why I considered Regenerator in the first place, but everybody seems convinced that Regenerator is too great of a buff. Though at least with CAP 22, we are not suffering Life Orb damage every time we use a pivoting move.
 

snake

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More (quick) comments from snakey.

Quick Feet: While it does give us a status immunity, the speed boost just messes with our checks and counters list again. The base speed of CAP22 (not saying that it will happen but from my speculation) will probably have more base speed than most Choice Scarf users, meaning Quick Feet allows CAP22 to outspend all of them.

Magic Bounce: Yes Deck Knight, it's a strong ability as are Regenerator and Prankster. However Magic Bounce is different from them in the context of this CAP in that a) it doesn't take direct advantage of Parting Shot's switching advantage and provide a very powerful effect alongside it and b) it doesn't take advantage of the fact that Parting Shot is a status move and mess with our checks and counters list. Magic Bounce on the other hand, deters most status moves from passive Pokemon, which helps with our threatlist. In my opinion, these reasons give merit for discussion on Magic Bounce.

I'm still not convinced on Serene Grace. The examples that you've cited quite honestly a) scare me more than flinching does or b) completely underwhelm me. Force Palm's paralysis chance also messes with our threatlist. In fact, most forms of speed control do. Charge Beam and Fiery Dance are practically boosting moves, and boosting moves encourage CAP22 not to switch and use Parting Shot. The Poison and Steel type moves that you listed I don't have an opinion on, but Shadow Ball and Crunch's chance go from an annoyance to slightly more of an annoyance. This might not be movepool, but I don't want to pick Serene Grace, get to movepool, and then realize that we have very few moves that have good effects and don't mess with our threatlist.

Also Bughouse, I think we mostly focused on Hippowdon and other walls because you calced for Hippowdon in one of your posts.
 
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david0895

Mercy Main Btw
After reading all the posts I'm convinced that these are the best abilities for CAP22 without risking of creating a monster:

-Natural Cure: Supporting the team absorbing a status would be very good reason to use a hit-and-run pokémon.

-Limber: The main reason to use CAP22 is Parting Shot, and only two things that can stop this move are faster pokémon and paralysis. Also, as a (probably) fast pokémon, this status will definitively cripple it.

-Mold Breaker: For the same reason, hit pokémon that normally that can't be affected, like Mega-Diancie and Colossoil would be an huuuuuuuuuge advantage.
 

Bughouse

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The point is people are mostly talking about abilities that are generically very good abilities and have very little to do specifically with this concept or the typing. People are talking about Magic Bounce, for god's sake. Pixilate actually does something relevant specifically for this CAP.
 

SHSP

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I'm just gonna throw my two cents in on some of the more popular/controversial abilities.

Magic Bounce- I'm a fan. It's a strong ability, yes, and my biggest worry is just how strong it is, but it gives cap22 pivoting strength in my eyes. If people are worried about it switching in, they won't be spamming status, and it makes us easier to pivot into things and get off PS for our team. I mainly agree with what Snake said earlier on- it helps alongside PS and doesnt mess with PS and what it does.

Natural Cure- My personal favorite, I think its a reasonable power level and it does a job that cap22 heavily benefits from. It also does a lot of what I mentioned with Magic Bounce- lets us switch in on hazards and eases our ability to pivot in.

Serene Grace- I don't see how this ability really helps the concept. It seems limited in what it can reasonably do and some applications seem very difficult to deal with (stuff like force palm spreading para seems annoying at best and very strong at worst), plus I don't see how it helps us pivot around with PS.

Pixilate- I don't like this at all. The idea of "we need to be strong to pivot well" is a good view, but giving it this ability makes pivoting take a bit of a backseat. Pixilate gives us power that, between our very strong coverage off of just STABs, makes me think more of a nuke then a pivot. I understand the idea of forcing switches with it into walls, but I worry more about losing offensive checks to cap22 which I see happening with too much power. Pixilate feels like it falls into the "too much power" section, at least in my opinion.
 
Guts was mentioned a little earlier; despite forcing it into the role of a physical attacker it seems like an decent choice. It would dissuade the use of status, as it would improve offensive prowess throughout the match. In addition, it would encourage pivoting in some cases because switches would reduce Toxic damage. It seems like a slightly more offense oriented option compared to Natural Cure.
 

Korski

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I feel like if we really wanted to lean on offensive items so bad, then we sort of shot ourselves in the foot by picking a typing that is designed foremost to switch into Darkmons. I won't belabor the point too much on Poison Heal (maybe I should have put in a disclaimer like DarkSlay did with Serene Grace about not immediately dismissing it out of hand simply because another Pokemon exists that uses the ability in a way we don't want CAP to use it), but we should probably keep in mind we are on our way to creating a contradictory set of expectations for this CAP: requiring it to be a consistent offensive threat AND a consistent Dark-type check/counter with no insurance against having its offensive item removed by Knock Off (one of easiest moves to throw around in the whole game, the STAB move every Dark-type in the tier primarily uses, early and often, and the main reason Dark spam is so difficult to truly punish in any sort of meaningful way).

Personally, I don't think pure offense is the right approach to this build, if only because Knock Off users are at the top of the list of things we want to switch into and because of how hard it is to be a top-tier offensemon without either a boosting item or Mega stats. A utility approach that offensively threatens Fighting- and Fairy-weak Pokemon but uses fast utility moves (like Parting Shot!) to challenge the rest of the tier, on the other hand, would avoid confusing the direction we've already started on. Also, if we actually give this Pokemon enough power and/or movepool diversity to muscle through all the Pokemon that are only used because they can't just be muscled through (bulky passives), as well as the sort of speed it takes to take advantage of offensive teams with Parting Shot, then we will end up with more of a breaker of worlds and than an actual pivot (as far as I understand the term).

We can threaten passive Pokemon during any of the ability, stats, or movepool stages; we can even deal with status during movepool (although I'd rather not); but we can only prevent being greatly diminished by Knock Off via ability. I like Poison Heal because it deals with status and deals with Knock Off and partially deals with passivemons and does all three of those things without really touching the threatlist (CAP's defensive typing and most likely its defensive stats are not even remotely as good as Gliscor's, and it is already walled by Poison-types and immediately threatened by Clefable and Fighting-neutral Steels, so idk how SubToxic would add anything substantial enough to warrant two moveslots). But I understand it's not a popular choice, which makes Natural Cure an obvious choice for primary ability, as it at least addresses an issue that is best addressesd by ability.
 
Although I think natural cure is a better choice than magic bounce, we need to stop acting like it completely solves our issue with passive mons. It is not an overly perfect way to beat passive mons as it is being exalted to be, as CAP will have to deal with status for one round, and then when switching out, offers the passive mon a round to potentially set up hazards / heal. Magic bounce, although often the defining feature of a pokemon that has the ability, is far better at threatening passive pokemon than natural cure, as threatening passive pokemon was stated as a high priority for CAP 22, although it proposes the issue of being too defining and overpowered.
 
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snake

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Hey guys. I'm posting the 24 hour warning right now. If you have any last arguments, post them soon!
 
Although I think natural cure is a better choice than magic bounce, we need to stop acting like it completely solves our issue with passive mons. It is not an overly perfect way to beat passive mons as it is being exalted to be, as CAP will have to deal with status for one round, and then when switching out, offers the passive mon a round to potentially set up hazards / heal. Magic bounce, although often the defining feature of a pokemon that has the ability, is far better at threatening passive pokemon than natural cure, as threatening passive pokemon was stated as a high priority for CAP 22, although it proposes the issue of being too defining and overpowered.
One word: Scald. That alone is why people still consider Natural Cure and not dismiss it and completely bandwagon on Magic Bounce. Both Keldeo and Naviathan, two Pokemon that our CAP threatens, carry it, and any form of status is detrimental to our CAP.
 
One word: Scald. That alone is why people still consider Natural Cure and not dismiss it and completely bandwagon on Magic Bounce. Both Keldeo and Naviathan, two Pokemon that our CAP threatens, carry it, and any form of status is detrimental to our CAP.
True, although I did say natural cure seemed like a better choice, I was just trying [perhaps unseccessfully] to highlight the fact that natural cure isn't the be-all-end-all way to deal with passive mons as some in this thread are making it out to be. Good point tho I didnt pick up on that.
 
Something that I don't recall being elaborated on is Mold Breaker
Now you may be thinking "that move is mainly for crushing eelectross and shedinja and preventing snorlaxes from eating all the fire moves"
But here's the thing, Magic Bounce could prove insanely annoying to CAP22 causing a forced switch out if it switches in on parting shot.
Pokemon with Clear Body, Hyper Cutter and Unaware can straight up ignore parting shot.
And if a Contrary pokemon switches into Parting Shot it basically means you get swept.

Mold breaker reverses all of this and makes potential for CAP 22 to be one of the best annoyers in history being able to breech all immunities to status and stat lowering moves and having a great speed stat gives it immense potential.
So Mold Breaker is the main ability I'm thinking of.
 

DarkSlay

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
On Serene Grace:

I originally suggested this ability as a means to compromise between an offensive ability and a utility-based ability (since most offensive suggestions often focus solely on bolstering attacking power), but I feel as though discussion concerning Serene Grace has been all over the place. Some say that it's too good, others say that not enough moves are affected, and another section says that it's too random. I'm failing to see, however, how an ability that adds on to stat lowering is anti-concept for a Parting Shot user designed to open up opportunities for its team as a pivot. Concerning this concept, Serene Grace would clearly be addressing the idea of how a pivot that induces stat drops through Parting Shot pivoting could be a major asset to competitive Pokemon. Again, certainly this ability would not be intended to abuse flinching, that's anti-concept. But with the moves out there that induce stat drops (regardless of quantity, even having access to a few moves that result in stat drops is viable), I see this as the perfect offensively-utilitarian selection for this concept.

There's also been a criticism of this ability due to it potentially leading to hard switching. Hard switching is a natural option in Pokemon, and unless we make an Arena Trap/Magnet Pull trapper, hard switching cannot be avoided. Furthermore, hard switching is still a victory for CAP22. Something is going to be at -1 Atk / -1 SpA regardless of a hard switch, unless it's a slow VoltTurn user. I don't get the arguments concerning hard switching when a hard switch out of CAP22 is still a victory and still lets us get negative stat drops on an opposing Pokemon. With Serene Grace, it just either adds on to those stat drops or forces the opponent to take a Parting Shot regardless.

While my biggest support is being put behind Nautral Cure at the moment, this ability should not be discredited and is a legitimate contender for a viable, concept-centric ability

On Poison Heal:

Two different thoughts on this ability. One, I think Korski is correct in saying that Poison Heal should not be discredited from discussion because of stigma. The dichotomy between our different goals can lead to us having to look outside of the box, and Poison Heal, while traditionally associated with walls and/or staying in for multiple turns, does NOT have to mean that CAP22 will turn out that way if given that ability.

That said, I personally would prefer Natural Cure over Poison Heal because of one major reason: Poison Heal limits your switch-in opportunities against status spreaders. One of the reasons why Poison Heal Gliscor is revered in OU is because not only is it a status absorber after Poison Heal activates, but it also has a natural immunity to Thunder Wave, letting it switch into Stall teams relatively safely. CAP22, as a Fairy/Fighting, doesn't have that luxury, and the benefit of being a pivot that can switch in on any status move is lost. Furthermore, Poison Heal Toxic Orb users aren't as weak to Knock Off, that's true, but they cannot always switch into Knock Off reliably at any time due to Poison Heal having to activate before safely switching into a Knock Off, lest you lose your recovery.
 
Something that I don't recall being elaborated on is Mold Breaker
My concern would be that the situation you speak of seems a bit too niche.

A discussion in which Regenerator and Prankster are panned for being too strong then brings up Magic Bounce...

Yeah, all I need to say on that.
No, that isn't all you need to say. Please elaborate, because there is something that I and all other potential Magic Bounce supporters aren't understanding about your position.

That said since we've been talking about damage boosting abilities, here's one we haven't discussed yet: Mega Launcher. Mega Launcher Aura Sphere is as strong as Focus Blast without the miss chance. Dark and Dragon coverage don't interfere with our threatlist too much, and in fact ML Dark Pulse heavily threatens Mega Metagross, Jirachi, and Kitsunoh. Most of the Fire-types we discussed are unaffected - calculation-wise anyway - because we could have run Focus Blast, but Poison types become an even more reliable switchin because it boosts Special Fighting STAB. Yeah Dark and Dragon Pulse do more than they would otherwise, but clicking Aura Sphere is the easiest solution and ML Dark/Dragon Pulse still isn't SE.
While I would think the threat of being struck with a Focus Blast (should that hypothetically be the direction we take CAP 22 in in later stages), inaccurate though it may be, would still be enough to force a switch, I can still see the benefits of an ability like Mega Launcher. It's more offensive than utility, but it certainly contributes to CAP 22's offensive pivot role, especially enabling it to reliably hurt foes or switch-ins the previous discussion determined CAP 22 should be able to threaten.

The point is people are mostly talking about abilities that are generically very good abilities and have very little to do specifically with this concept or the typing. People are talking about Magic Bounce, for god's sake.
People are talking about Magic Bounce because they think that the ability makes sense for a pivoting Mon. If there's a problem with it, say what the problem is. The fact that Magic Bounce has support clearly means other people aren't seeing the problem you're seeing. Tell us what's wrong with Magic Bounce - don't assume that others already know because I and others clearly don't.

Pixilate actually does something relevant specifically for this CAP.
It... enables us to give it lower offensive stats while still being functional? Is that what you're getting at? Why not just give it better offensive stats? There are two reasons for why one might want Pixilate over simply higher offensive stats:
  1. We want to use Hyper Voice to bust through substitutes, which is a reason you haven't mentioned and is a reason I don't see as super relevant to CAP 22 being a pivot because it hasn't come up in the discussion.
  2. We want to use Return and its perfect accuracy instead of Play Rough, which is something you also haven't mentioned and is something I don't see as sufficiently relevant to CAP 22's potential pivot role because it hasn't come up in the discussion.
Beyond that, does Pixilate do much of anything that better offensive stats couldn't do? Giving CAP 22 Pixilate effectively means not giving it another ability that could do more for it.

I feel like if we really wanted to lean on offensive items so bad, then we sort of shot ourselves in the foot by picking a typing that is designed foremost to switch into Darkmons. I won't belabor the point too much on Poison Heal (maybe I should have put in a disclaimer like DarkSlay did with Serene Grace about not immediately dismissing it out of hand simply because another Pokemon exists that uses the ability in a way we don't want CAP to use it), but we should probably keep in mind we are on our way to creating a contradictory set of expectations for this CAP: requiring it to be a consistent offensive threat AND a consistent Dark-type check/counter with no insurance against having its offensive item removed by Knock Off (one of easiest moves to throw around in the whole game, the STAB move every Dark-type in the tier primarily uses, early and often, and the main reason Dark spam is so difficult to truly punish in any sort of meaningful way).

Personally, I don't think pure offense is the right approach to this build, if only because Knock Off users are at the top of the list of things we want to switch into and because of how hard it is to be a top-tier offensemon without either a boosting item or Mega stats. A utility approach that offensively threatens Fighting- and Fairy-weak Pokemon but uses fast utility moves (like Parting Shot!) to challenge the rest of the tier, on the other hand, would avoid confusing the direction we've already started on. Also, if we actually give this Pokemon enough power and/or movepool diversity to muscle through all the Pokemon that are only used because they can't just be muscled through (bulky passives), as well as the sort of speed it takes to take advantage of offensive teams with Parting Shot, then we will end up with more of a breaker of worlds and than an actual pivot (as far as I understand the term).

We can threaten passive Pokemon during any of the ability, stats, or movepool stages; we can even deal with status during movepool (although I'd rather not); but we can only prevent being greatly diminished by Knock Off via ability. I like Poison Heal because it deals with status and deals with Knock Off and partially deals with passivemons and does all three of those things without really touching the threatlist (CAP's defensive typing and most likely its defensive stats are not even remotely as good as Gliscor's, and it is already walled by Poison-types and immediately threatened by Clefable and Fighting-neutral Steels, so idk how SubToxic would add anything substantial enough to warrant two moveslots). But I understand it's not a popular choice, which makes Natural Cure an obvious choice for primary ability, as it at least addresses an issue that is best addressesd by ability.
For what it's worth, I think that plenty of Magic Bounce/Natural Cure supporters (myself included) have not been focusing heavily on depending on offensive items. You're definitely right that we want to switch into Knock Off, but that doesn't necessarily mean we need to be Knock Off proof. The list of Mons the previous discussion determined CAP 22 should be able to threaten largely focused on Mons weak to CAP 22's STAB combo - it didn't address coverage much at all. If CAP 22 has to rely on super-effective hits to dole out lots of damage in the event it loses an item, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. CAP 22's focus is on being a pivot more than a sweeper or wall breaker.

Aside from that, I find myself in agreement with DarkSlay - Poison heal is certainly good, and I was unwise not to recognize it as viable earlier, but I find myself still favoring the nigh-upon status immunity granted by Magic Bounce and Natural Cure.

One word: Scald. That alone is why people still consider Natural Cure and not dismiss it and completely bandwagon on Magic Bounce. Both Keldeo and Naviathan, two Pokemon that our CAP threatens, carry it, and any form of status is detrimental to our CAP.
Hm... I hadn't considered Scald before, and it'd make sense for that to be a move CAP 22 could end up switching into if one wanted to use CAP 22 to force Keldeo out. How drastically it affects CAP 22 is dependent on what sort of offensive stats we give it, but chip damage would still harm CAP 22's longevity. With this in mind, I find myself much more torn regarding which I would support first: Magic Bounce or Natural Cure.

Magic Bounce provides immunity to status moves as well as Taunt, which would otherwise stop a Parting Shot in its tracks. Additionally, bouncing back status moves pressures passive Mons such as walls. However, CAP 22 remains vulnerable to Toxic Spikes and Scald burns.

Natural Cure enables CAP 22 to heal itself of status, including from Toxic Spikes and Scald burns. However, it doesn't stop Taunt and the chip damage from the status will still occur until CAP 22 switches out.

With Magic Bounce, CAP 22 can safely escape Thundurus (and any other such Mons) with Parting Shot. With Natural Cure, CAP 22 can safely switch into Keldeo (and any other such Mons). I'm... not sure which would be more important for CAP 22 to do.
 

Korski

Distilled, 80 proof
is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
  • Korski belabors the point (I'm sorry!)
DarkSlay is correct that activating the Toxic Orb before switching into status and Knock Off is a limitation we should be mindful of; I said as much in my original post and it bears repeating. However, I do not agree that it is so limiting as to discount the perpetual advantage Poison Heal provides for every turn thereafter. The cost of not switching directly into status or Knock Off, once, is pretty fair and affordable, imo, especially when it's in exchange for patching up multiple already-identified holes in our desired strategy with this CAP for the remainder of any given battle. Given an assumed offensive presence and the ability to switch into a few things that aren't Dark-types, I can imagine early-game moments where the CAP can survive a turn without getting the Toxic Orb plan ruined.

Poison Heal is a full status immunity + 12% HP gain for every turn except CAP's first turn in battle. This is as opposed to a 12-24% HP loss and dramatic loss of offensive presence for any time CAP is Burned, 6-18% HP loss from Toxic for any time CAP is Toxic Poisoned, 75% Speed drop + 25% full Para risk for any time CAP is Paralyzed, or an immediate hard switch for any turn CAP is Spored, should we go with Natural Cure (will not get into random Freezings). Or as opposed to Magic Bounce, it prevents Scald/Lava Plume Burns and Discharge Paralysis and it isn't Magic Bounce.

And, not to repeat myself too much (hopefully), Poison Heal is the only ability that allows CAP to simultaneously pivot into Dark-types and reliably utilize a held item. This is as opposed to every other ability under consideration. I don't even care about the lower damage from Knock Off after the Toxic Orb is removed; with the 4x resist, the difference between like 18% and 12% is negligible (although being able to recover nearly all of it back with Poison Heal renders Knock Off truly meaningless).

tl;dr - ignore this post if you hate Poison Heal (and if you hate Poison Heal, then love Natural Cure). I don't usually like to risk threadhogging with only two responses to my previous post but with the 24-hour warning I wanted to put down these final thoughts.
 
For anyone considering abilities that strengthen our matchup against Knock Off, I did a few Calcs with the strongest Knock Off in the game as the opponent: Adamant Choice Banded Adaptability Crawdaunt, with CAP22 having a Defense lowering nature. Also I did each Calc once with a held Item and once without one.
CAP22's stats for these calcs are purely hypothetical and not meant as a poll jump:

Base 90 HP, Base 50 Def:
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP22: 158-187 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP22: 106-125 (33 - 38.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
Base 90 HP, Base 60 Def:
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP22: 138-163 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP22: 93-109 (28.9 - 33.9%) -- 2% chance to 3HKO
Base 90 HP, Base 70 Def:
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP22: 122-144 (38 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP22: 82-97 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Base 90 HP, Base 80 Def:
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP22: 110-130 (34.2 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP22: 74-87 (23 - 27.1%) -- 57.3% chance to 4HKO
Base 90 HP, Base 90 Def:
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP22: 100-118 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- 71.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP22: 67-79 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Base 90 HP, Base 100 Def:
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP22: 91-108 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP22: 61-72 (19 - 22.4%) -- possible 5HKO

Looking at that, we can see that even a quite frail CAP22 is taking Knock Offs with ease.
Therefore I think, our best options as a primary ability right now are Natural Cure or Magic Bounce. Both of them were brought up a lot of times now, so I won't repeat that.
 
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