To be fair i think that quagsire deserves its spot on the viability rankings.Quagsire is mainly on stall to stop set up sweepers and nothing more than that apart from a couple other pokemon it can counter.Even then it doesn't stop all set up sweepers.Manaphy for example can scald it to death or energy ball,what about cm clefable too.Another thing is the opponent is not going to set up with talonflame or charizard-x if the quagsire isnt weakened to the point where it cant kill it.Many of the things quagsire can wall,skarmory can and while doing that it can remove or get up hazards.The last thing that is holding back quagsire is the bulk is kinda mediocre,luckily the typing is pretty good though.Overall quagsire is a decent pokemon and deserves its spot i feel.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)
- Thread starter bludz
- Start date
It's already ranked
Zapdos to B-
I have a sneaking suspicion that Zapdos' usage in July has been steadily rising. It has great defensive typing, and it is an extremely useful check to many of the tier's top threats, including (but certainly not limited to) Talonflame, Keldeo, Ferrothorn, Scizor-M, Pinsir-M, Tornadus-T, and Metagross-M. It is a well-established Defog user, for pretty obvious reasons, so I will focus this post on other uses it has. On teams with defog support, Zapdos can run a variety of complimentary moves. T-wave allows Zapdos to speed check common switch-ins such as Ice Punch Lopunny/Medicham, HP-Ice along with a little bit of SpA investment allows Zapdos to OHKO most Gliscor/Lando-T/Garchomp variants. Toxic also complements Zapdos' spread and reliable recovery. I have seen Tailwind occasionally but I would personally not run it.
A common argument against Zapdos is that Thundurus/Thundurus-T are more viable. Obviously Zapdos has less impressive abilities than the Thundurus twins, but Zapdos has a completely different use than Thundurus, and on less offensively minded teams, it is more viable.
Tl;dr, Zapdos is more viable than C+, due to its great defensive typing, the amount of extremely-high usage mons it checks, and its versatile fourth move slot.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Zapdos' usage in July has been steadily rising. It has great defensive typing, and it is an extremely useful check to many of the tier's top threats, including (but certainly not limited to) Talonflame, Keldeo, Ferrothorn, Scizor-M, Pinsir-M, Tornadus-T, and Metagross-M. It is a well-established Defog user, for pretty obvious reasons, so I will focus this post on other uses it has. On teams with defog support, Zapdos can run a variety of complimentary moves. T-wave allows Zapdos to speed check common switch-ins such as Ice Punch Lopunny/Medicham, HP-Ice along with a little bit of SpA investment allows Zapdos to OHKO most Gliscor/Lando-T/Garchomp variants. Toxic also complements Zapdos' spread and reliable recovery. I have seen Tailwind occasionally but I would personally not run it.
A common argument against Zapdos is that Thundurus/Thundurus-T are more viable. Obviously Zapdos has less impressive abilities than the Thundurus twins, but Zapdos has a completely different use than Thundurus, and on less offensively minded teams, it is more viable.
Tl;dr, Zapdos is more viable than C+, due to its great defensive typing, the amount of extremely-high usage mons it checks, and its versatile fourth move slot.
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Incontheivable I've gone into detail as to why Zapdos should likely not rise to begin with, but the HUGE jump from C+ to, at worst B-? That's too much.
I have two different posts explaining my reasoning behind why I'm not for a rise.
Post 1 explains the reasoning as to what happens when you keep it as a Scizor check, making yourself weaker to Tyranitar (a long time partner since Gen 4 when Scizor got Technician).
Post 2 goes into more detail into Zapdos and its matchups. They aren't good. The comparisons aren't even in its favor, either.
Take a look at those for some grounds for debate and we'll go from there.
I have two different posts explaining my reasoning behind why I'm not for a rise.
Post 1 explains the reasoning as to what happens when you keep it as a Scizor check, making yourself weaker to Tyranitar (a long time partner since Gen 4 when Scizor got Technician).
Post 2 goes into more detail into Zapdos and its matchups. They aren't good. The comparisons aren't even in its favor, either.
Take a look at those for some grounds for debate and we'll go from there.
I think you mean C+, where it's ranked, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that was just a mistimed typo.
I agree,zapdos is much better than c-.But tbh i also disagree at the same time.Sure its a good support pokemon and pretty fat access to recovery and counter a lot of threats but i think the main thing holding it back is ttar.Ttar is very common for many reasons,being a wallbreaker sand support for excadrill traps phsychic pokemon and even stealth rock and to add to that it has very good coverage.I ts also a huge threat to zappy,sure you can dodge a couple edges but a cb stone edge is gona hurt and even at that volt switching is going to be a very risky play due to its access to pursuit trap,a couple more notable threats are weavile,mega diancie,kyurem-black and landorus-t if you don't have hidden power ice.Llastly as a defogger zapdos isn't that good at its job as you would think,the sr weakness is very annoying and zapdos can be fairly easy to predict aswell.
Indeed C- was a typo. Edited for clarity. Thank-you for bringing those posts to my attention. I was fairly sure that this is a discussion that has already been had.
Your first post makes some decent points, but I would argue a couple points...
- the hypothetical Scizor/Tar scenario you described is only slightly relevant, as a common core such as Scizor/Tar would be addressed on a decent Zapdos-wielding team (Keldeo comes to mind).
- Manetric-M's two disadvantages over Zapdos are obvious, but worth mentioning (Ground-weakness + Mega coverage)
Your second post was very astute.
- The top 25 coverage points which you addressed are largely inarguable, but the conclusion you drew seems odd to me. Checking that many top 25 usage mons seems like a bigger selling point than being checked by many of them is a drawback. (Did that sentence make sense...?)
- Being a defogger weak to switching into SR is Zapdos' biggest drawback, but I don't run Defog for that reason. Running HP Ice over Defog allows Zapdos to catch the bulky grounds you mentioned on the switch-in.. and Ice/Elec/Fire coverage is incredible coverage.
- Lastly, Zapdos can be great bait for set-up mons.. however, this takes some astute prediction.
All in all, perhaps you are correct. It may belong in C+ :)
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Absolutely correct on that end. No doubt a Zapdos user would know the hurdles it would go over and stick a partner or two in order to create a core (or the other way around, using Zapdos to fill a gap). I will no doubt say that Zapdos, in a one on one situation, pressures Scizor of almost any variant (almost completely countering it with the Physically Defensive set). The problem I should've brought up is that other Pokemon that can act as Scizor checks have ways around this core; Thundurus-I has access to Focus Blast for Tyranitar while bolstering a powerful Thunderbolt that 3HKOs the Bulky Offense set for Mega Scizor without using Nasty Plot. Mega Manectric can switch in and Intimidate, followed by Flamethrower, while also having Hidden Power Ice to deal with a potential Landorus-T switch. Mandibuzz boasts immunity to Spore and Sleep Powder and enough Physical bulk for her to muscle past most any Physical Threat, even against Stone Edge users. She also commonly uses Foul Play, a devious way to make the Scizor user pay for using Swords Dance. Quagsire is Quagsire. It laughs at almost all Physical Boosters.
A fair point, especially considering that Bulky Sand is a huge part of the meta. At that point, it's a measuring of pros/cons to determine the best fit for a team and which Pokemon is overall better for it.
Yes and no. It seems like an oddly worded way to put it, but I'll do my best. You claim that checking that many Pokemon in the Top 25 is a good selling point. Let me have a look at the list again...
6/25 is the number of Pokemon that Zapdos can reliably switch-in and threaten (I'm counting Mega Scizor and, out of a bit of kindness and rethinking, Garchomp), so about 22% of the Top 25, with some threatens but has problems thrown in the mix on top of that. Not a bad number, but it comes at a cost; many of the Top 25 can check an equal or higher number and perform a plethora of roles while doing so, hence the Heatran comparison (and it's still relatively unfair, yes). Remember that Excadrill and Landorus-T have a Rock-Type move, and other Pokemon normally carry a debilitating move that keeps the Instinct Bird from hitting the field.
This brings up something I should've looked into even further. Zapdos as a defogger does have issues, but its main niche was that it could beat Scizor and win against Bisharp (which was huge for a time). You bring up forgoing Defog and Toxic altogether for running Ice/Elec/Fire coverage. That may sound fine and dandy at first, using Zapdos as a bulky attacker with reliable recovery, but it comes at its own cost; Zapdos as an attacker is outclassed. As an outright attacker, Thundurus entirely outclasses it thanks to Nasty Plot and similar Ice/Elec/Fight coverage (bar the bulk, obviously). For Bulky Attacking, Heatran has even more bulk and also gets amazing coverage. Tornadus-T gets good mixed coverage, the ability to reliably hold Assault Vest, and Regenerator, a much better ability. Volcanion is Volcanion; while it may be lower than the above, it boasts power like crazy (I mean, its signature move is a buffed Scald!). This also takes away from Zapdos' niche: Defog and Scizor check.
I will admit that there are holes in the argument, but many times I post I'm either low on time or sleep (once both...and it showed). I could go into much more detail later when I can deal with legal matters (YouTube stuff--won't go into detail here), but I'll say that for now. Respond as you want. I need to get some sleep for once. For now, though, the meta is too much for the bird. Maybe once we get this month's stats and see where everything lines up by then, things will change (they normally do for a Pokemon or two).
I'm going to also say this now for anybody that wants to nominate something that seems difficult to counter in a meta. Just because a Pokemon has very few safe switch ins, it doesn't make it truly viable. I could go into detail as to why Rampardos is difficult to actually counter, but checking it is outrageously easy and not worth using in OU without even bringing up anything else about it.
Scizor-mega:A+ --> S This pokemon has had a lot going for it in oras ou,but i think it deserves more than A+.To start off Scizor-mega has an amazing typing being only weak to fire and resisting many types,due to the typing and a lot more other niches it is a very splashable pokemon and easy to use.It has great bulk and offensive stats making it a huge threat in the overused tier.On top of that it has access to recovery (roost) and has the ability technician that boost attacks that are under 60 base power,this ability works great for scizor due to its stab priority move bullet punch which in a way makes up for its speed.The ability also works for its other stab move bug bite which hits the maximum base power for the ability to work and hits like a truck against things like mew celebi serperior breloom and many other Pokemon in the ou metagame.Luckily this ability Carrie's over to its mega evelution so it can be able to use light metal which makes it able to switch into low kick better but its not as huge as the rest of its niches.To make this pokemon even greater it gets access to swords dance which boost you're attack by +2.This pokemon also has u-turn this move helps the player gain momentum and its able to exit magnezones magnet pull and at the same time adding damage to magnezone,this can also work if a magnezone is switching into mega scizor.Scizor also gets acess to knock off,this attack knocks off the opponent's item off which is very useful for crippling things like tran ect that rely on there item heavily.Lastly this pokemon has superpower and can weaken things like heatran magnezone ect upon switch in(keep in mind that to use it against magnezone its best you do it if you know its not scarf)some of the things holding mega scizor back though is that its often prepared for,i feel this is also the same problem with manaphy as since they are huge threats to the ou metagame,that is also an example of how it has changed the metagame.Another thing holding it back is that its very predictable when going against it nearly all mega scizor run sd with bullet punch and roost and a filler.Lastly it has very splashable counters for example rotom-wash or lando t,a couple other cons to note are that zapdos is also rising in usage which is also partly due to mega zor,and it being able to have defog support at the same time which is another example on how its changing the ou metagame,and lastly clefable has an ev spread designed to live a hit from a scizor and it uses flamethrower to hit them(ferrothorn as well) overall though i think scizor deserves an s ranking due to its solid stats,being able to sweep effectively,and being able to switch into big threats in the ou metagame like bisharp and weavile,and taking on many threats in ou like kyurem black diancie and even clefable and having amazing offensive and defensive capabilities and at the same time having amazing coverage makes it definitely something to consider as s rank.OTHER NOTABLE THINGSim, new on the smogon forum stuff ect so my post isn't going to be as convincing as the other post.(EXPLANATION:mega scizor has changed the meta a lot since its new mega evolution,clefable sets have an amount of defense to live an attack from mega scizor,kyurem black uses hp fire to hit scizors,manaphy also runs hp fire to hit scizor,mega diancie runs hp fire to hit scizor and ohko iirc,amoonguss runs hp fire to hit scizor,latios runs hp fire,ttar and chomp have fire blast to hit scizor.)(This pokemon also has great synergy with hazard support mons like starmie or latias)(makes for a great volt turn pokemon)
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The main issue with your nomination, regardless of whether I agree with it or not, is that you fail to explain how the metagame has changed for it in a way that warrants a rise. While you've touched upon some of the issues that hold it back, you otherwise haven't really accomplished anything in your nomination save for list numerous traits that the 'mon has - which makes it read more like an informal analysis rather than a nomination. We all know that it has Technician, Swords Dance, and priority. For all the text in your nom, it hasn't really proved anything, per say. It's essentially just a subjective opinion, listing the traits of the 'mon, and a glance over a single con. I really don't have much of an opinion on what happens to Mega Scizor's ranking, but it'll take more than that to convince people that it deserves a place with Clefable.
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Hmm. I really do think scizor is the best mega in the tier, but im torn on this nom. Scizor is definitely one of the best mons in the game. Its incredible offensive and defensive capabilities turn it into one of the biggest threats in the tier. The offensive set's near impeccable coverage makes it incredibly hard to come in on, while the defensive set is a fantastic pivot handling several of the current meta's biggest threats such as weavile, clefable, mega diancie, and latios while doing a great job of grabbing momentum for its team with u-turn. Its an incredibly multidimensional in the support it provides to its teams from pivoting to walling to sweeping to revenge killing. The influence its had on the metagame is undeniable with how many teams are running heatran nowadays. It has a at least decent matchup against all playstyles, not really being dead weight in any matchups thanks to the sheer versatility of the bulky sd set. It soft checks an absurd number of pokemon and is just all around an incredibly useful and splashable pokemon in the current metagame. However, there is one thing holding me back from giving this my 100% support: hazards. Scizor's susceptibility to stealth rock and spikes in particular when its supposed to be U-turning a lot early game grabbing momentum and wearing down some of its counters like keldeo for example is really an achilles heel as it rarely gets the free turn to recover off the damage without giving up momentum to the opponent, especially since it does not get leftovers recovery unlike several other of the tiers pivots. Not staying at full dramatically compromises scizor's defensive capabilities, leaving it unable reliably check a whole slew of threats such as mega lopunny, latis, mega diancie, and more. Just generally getting worn down is a huge part of what limits mega scizor. If it werent for that i could almost completely support a rise to S but i feel that hazards are really the crux of the issue keeping it A+.
I was going to say the same thing about the m-scizor nomination not stating what's changed for it. I think that the rise of t-tar has definitely helped it too. Its coverage is spectacular, and I disagree with hailfall about it being easily worn down. Many things it can switch into give it a free turn to roost. I'm not one to bandwagon much, but I think it really could be S. it pairs perfectly with Clef, keld, and lando-t, (and volcarona I think, though I haven't run that particular combo), and it's flourishing right now.
EDIT: it also pairs decently with both rapid spin users and several of the defog users as well, if you're worried about it getting two worn down by hazards
EDIT: it also pairs decently with both rapid spin users and several of the defog users as well, if you're worried about it getting two worn down by hazards
I agre with your post nearly entirely and you added a lot of stuff i didn't really talk about in my post but hazards are very very stressful for mega scizor and the zapdos increase is also not helping as well with the fact that everything now a days runs hp fire due to the fact that scizor is such a huge threat even kyurem black runs it and manaphy maybe my post was a bit of a stretch but now that i think about it scizor is definitely gona have a hard time getting into s rank.
It does look like an analysis other than a nomination and i hadn't really put much thought into it unti now i have edited my post from previously and i think it has a lot more in depth look into the mega Scizor nomination.
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Now that were on the subject of bringing Mega Scizor pokemon to S, I really have to ask, why is Clefable by itself in S rank? Pokemon like MegaZor, Lando, and Tornadus-T have really been rising a lot lately, and Clefable has been falling. Don't get me wrong guys, Clefable is still a god and nobody is denying that, but I honestly believe that pokemon like Mega Scizor, Landorus-T, and Tornadus-T are on very similar level to Clef and I think it is unfair to put pokemon these pokemon in the ranks of things like Tyranitar, Rotom-W, and Mega Diancie, when they are very clearly above it. I normally don't have an issue with these kinds of things considering they are bound to be some differences with pokemon in the same rank, but nonetheless this time I believe it is strange considering that Clefable is a lot closer to something like Lando than Lando is to something like Heatran or Tyranitar. I support the Mega Scizor rise 100% and although I believe RPZY's post could have been worded better and it could have given an explanation on how it changed the meta, I still see what he is saying I definitely would not mind seeing the pokemon rise. Also if it wasn't obvious by the post I think Landorus-T should rise too, but I will make a more detailed nomination later.
EDIT: Sorry, smogon saved my old post that I decided to scrap and I accidently posted it with this one
EDIT: Sorry, smogon saved my old post that I decided to scrap and I accidently posted it with this one
I think we need an S- rank. While I'm not saying I don't agree those mons are on the same level as Clefable (namely just M-Scizor, Torn-T and Lando-T) I do believe they preform much better than some mons they share a rank with. If people don't agree they are on the same level as Clefable then they could move into an S- rank. Just use a mon like Lando-t and you'll notice it preforms much more consistently then something like Heatran.
I think it's very important for everyone to realize something about the S rank; when this thread was revamped, there was a higher emphasis on not cluttering the higher ranks (A/A+/S) so that their viability is more easily represented as opposed to the last thread where 22* mons were sitting in A+ rank. The S rank right now is meant for the best of the best, which is Clefable in this instance - a mon that provides overwhelming support for its team while also being a dominant force pretty much on its own; its ability to wear down supposed checks and make the opponent play so carefully around it so that they don't let their Heatran or whatever Clefable check they have get paralyzed, worn down, and eventually beaten while Clefable then solos the rest of their team shows what a menace it is.
Now don't get me wrong, M-Scizor is one of THE meta defining forces right now. It pivots around with its awesome typing/bulk/access to recovery and U-Turn and is a giant annoyance for many teams. However the S rank is a very exclusive rank right now, and Scizor/Diancie/Keldeo/whatever in A+ rank are phenomenal mons and excel in the roles they play in, which is why they are in the rank they are. They aren't singlehandedly breaking past their checks the way Clef does, although they don't need to, as they succeed extremely well and are still the top forces in the meta which every team MUST prep for, which shows that they fit right in A+ rank.
I oppose Scizor moving up, as it is in the perfect spot it needs to be in; the current A+ rank represents the best in the meta, while S rank does so as well while showcasing Clefable as a threat that can do its job well in just about any circumstance; it puts it in a light over the rest of the A+ rank as a mon that is just a bit better than them to the point where having Clef in the same rank wouldn't be representative of the current meta. Sorry if it sounds like rambling, but I just wanted to post this just so there's no confusion about how exclusive the S rank is at the moment, and why I want it to stay the way it is.
Now don't get me wrong, M-Scizor is one of THE meta defining forces right now. It pivots around with its awesome typing/bulk/access to recovery and U-Turn and is a giant annoyance for many teams. However the S rank is a very exclusive rank right now, and Scizor/Diancie/Keldeo/whatever in A+ rank are phenomenal mons and excel in the roles they play in, which is why they are in the rank they are. They aren't singlehandedly breaking past their checks the way Clef does, although they don't need to, as they succeed extremely well and are still the top forces in the meta which every team MUST prep for, which shows that they fit right in A+ rank.
I oppose Scizor moving up, as it is in the perfect spot it needs to be in; the current A+ rank represents the best in the meta, while S rank does so as well while showcasing Clefable as a threat that can do its job well in just about any circumstance; it puts it in a light over the rest of the A+ rank as a mon that is just a bit better than them to the point where having Clef in the same rank wouldn't be representative of the current meta. Sorry if it sounds like rambling, but I just wanted to post this just so there's no confusion about how exclusive the S rank is at the moment, and why I want it to stay the way it is.
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Blanket response to stuff above. M-Scizor isn't S, and you're a fool to think otherwise, considering this is probably the 10th+ time this nom has come up over the course of ORAS. Neither is Lando-T and sure as hell not Torn-T at this point in the meta. Argue for stuff to drop before rising.
Sub divisions of S have and always will be nonsense, stop supporting this and again, argue for stop to drop.
Sub divisions of S have and always will be nonsense, stop supporting this and again, argue for stop to drop.
The reason Clef is alone in S is because there really isn't anything that's on its level. Clef can compress speed control, a bulky win-con and an incredible defensive wall all in one, all with the ability to pick and choose as well as beat its checks with its final move slot (Tran, Megagross and Gengar get para'd, Ferro and Sciz get flamethrowered). It's an answer to so much in the metagame (Diancie, Lop, Sableye, Latios, Chomp, Thundy, Kyurem, Manec, Megazam, Altaria, etc.), and can perform a multitude of roles for a team (CM sweeper, Rocks setter, Unaware wall, status absorber). There's really nothing that can compare to how easy it is to slap Clef on a team and make said team so much better. While Scizor is incredible in this meta, it just isn't as good as Clef, there are a ton of checks to it in the meta that are really popular rn (Lando + Rotom, anyone?) and while it can eventually break past them by wearing them down it can't outright cripple it like Clef can with T-Wave or lure it in and KO it with Flamethrower. Not to mention what CrystalRam said above about the VR getting revamped solely for sorting the mess that became the A+ and S ranks. The previous VR thread was way too loose about what could make S rank, which is why Keld and Torn eventually got in (they're incredible mons don't get me wrong but they don't deserve to be S and are not on par with Clef), and now the S ranking is reserved for THE best of the best, which is basically only Clefable rn.
I'm just going to toss out there that I think Garchomp looks really out of place in A-rank. It's sitting up there with kings of their respective niches, such as Zard-X, Manaphy, Lop, and Mega Sabs, but what is Garchomp king at? In exchange for checking Bisharp, Tank hands out way too many free turns to things Lando doesn't, like Diancie and Torn-T, and I've played/witnessed a plethora of games where the only thing that offsets its slow passiveness is a predicted switch into a non-threatening contact move. But all of the top threats carry something to kill it or get around it now, so there's just as good a chance it's pivoting into an Ice move or getting burned.
And let's be real about those offensive sets: they're okay at best. Clicking Outrage might net a kill every now and then for those expecting Tank, but that kill gets traded off more often than not. I've yet to run across a replay in World Cup of it putting in real work, partly because it usually dies to what its supposed to check, and partly because its usage is eclipsed by Lando, who's putting in a lot more work with offensive Scarf and defensive Helm.
Again, why is Chomp ranked alongside some of the best offensive and defensive threats in the game without actually being one itself?
And let's be real about those offensive sets: they're okay at best. Clicking Outrage might net a kill every now and then for those expecting Tank, but that kill gets traded off more often than not. I've yet to run across a replay in World Cup of it putting in real work, partly because it usually dies to what its supposed to check, and partly because its usage is eclipsed by Lando, who's putting in a lot more work with offensive Scarf and defensive Helm.
Again, why is Chomp ranked alongside some of the best offensive and defensive threats in the game without actually being one itself?
Garchomp is definitely ranked highly for its offensive sets actually, mostly Swords Dance 3 Attacks Garchomp vs anything remotely bulky. For reference, this is the set I am speaking of:
Garchomp (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
Probably one of the scariest Pokemon possible to face with a slow-ish team because absolutely nothing except like Mandibuzz and Quagsire trades efficiently with it. Gliscor obviously loses, Lando-T falls easily if it comes in on the Swords Dance (even with Helmet factored it), conventional "Garchomp checks" like Bold Clefable and Slowbro get absolutely floored by +2 Earthquake and there's pretty much always some Pokemon you get mostly free setup against, like Heatran. It absolutely runs train through balanced teams relying more on bulk than offensive pressure to stop it from setting up, and even against BO it at worst trades with Rotom and Landorus, which is pretty easy to take advantage of with teammates.
Scarf Garchomp is alright (although hard to justify considering the above set, it just feels wrong to use Garchomp not like that), Sash/Lum SR is still okay in my opinion, Tank Chomp is and has been the most overrated Pokemon since the beginning of ORAS but it has its uses. So yeah, while its defensive set and the other offensive sets might be "okay" at best, this is The set that makes Garchomp so incredibly scary to play against and puts it up there with stuff like Manaphy. Its versatility compared to stuff like Lopunny actually makes it one of the better A ranks, I'd argue, even if LO 3 Attacks is definitely its best set right now.
There's also a WCOP replay of it doing work but I can't find it atm :(
Garchomp (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
Probably one of the scariest Pokemon possible to face with a slow-ish team because absolutely nothing except like Mandibuzz and Quagsire trades efficiently with it. Gliscor obviously loses, Lando-T falls easily if it comes in on the Swords Dance (even with Helmet factored it), conventional "Garchomp checks" like Bold Clefable and Slowbro get absolutely floored by +2 Earthquake and there's pretty much always some Pokemon you get mostly free setup against, like Heatran. It absolutely runs train through balanced teams relying more on bulk than offensive pressure to stop it from setting up, and even against BO it at worst trades with Rotom and Landorus, which is pretty easy to take advantage of with teammates.
Scarf Garchomp is alright (although hard to justify considering the above set, it just feels wrong to use Garchomp not like that), Sash/Lum SR is still okay in my opinion, Tank Chomp is and has been the most overrated Pokemon since the beginning of ORAS but it has its uses. So yeah, while its defensive set and the other offensive sets might be "okay" at best, this is The set that makes Garchomp so incredibly scary to play against and puts it up there with stuff like Manaphy. Its versatility compared to stuff like Lopunny actually makes it one of the better A ranks, I'd argue, even if LO 3 Attacks is definitely its best set right now.
There's also a WCOP replay of it doing work but I can't find it atm :(
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Actually, the Swords Dance set is not this. Actually, the set with Swords Dance is this (actually is a SR set):
Garchomp @ Lum Berry
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Swords Dance
The set that have you posted is the infamous "broken" Garchomp set,. In Gen IV, Dragons were overpowered and Garchomp was behind Latios (who never became OU legal that gen) in brokeness. Basically, it was like if now Mega Lucario was in OU, with the bonus that you can't revenge kill with anything other than Ice type attacks and that your team is not restricted by using it.
The only differences are that the broken set can have Yache Berry instead of Life Orb (it can have either of them), had the ability Sand Veil (Rough Skin was restricted to Sharpedo) and usually don't run Stealth Rock (it was put for suicide leads, bulky leads or walls).
There are multiple SD sets for Garchomp. SD Lum was most popular in early 2015 when Mega Sableye was heavily used. These days, the set CBB posted is more threatening due to immediate power - it can destroy MG Clefable much more easily, and the final moveslot being coverage instead of SR lets you break Skarm and other steels more easily. So he didn't post the wrong set, those are different sets and he cited the one which is currently more dangerous and effective.
Can Diggersby drop? Even with Huge Power it doesn't have the best Attack stat, and it has pretty bad Speed and that's an attribute that a physical sweeper shouldn't have. I get that it has Quick Attack but it hits so damn weak. Not to mention that Weavile is everywhere. Speaking of Weavile, I'd much rather use that as a physical sweeper which has significantly better offensive stats and has almost everything that Diggersby has.
Also Tangrowth has been seeing more usage lately
Yes I know that it gets Swords Dance but Azumarill gets Belly Drum
Also Tangrowth has been seeing more usage lately
Yes I know that it gets Swords Dance but Azumarill gets Belly Drum
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
What? Diggersby has the equivalent of a 161.5 attack stat after huge power, im not sure where youre getting the idea that its attack stat is not great. Quick attack is absurdly poweful, hitting insane benchmarks like ohkoing latios at +2 after rocks. Weavile doesnt hit anywhere near as hard as diggesrby. Obviously you also have to consider that weavile is ranked A while diggersby is ranked B- for a reason. If diggersby sets up a sd on the switch, tangrowth is also OHKOed by return. I have no idea how youre getting the idea that diggersby isnt a potent offensive threat. Diggersby and azu are different mons, and diggersby is also quite a bit faster than azu and has a different stab combo meaning its not totally eclipsed in the role of "ridiculously powerful wallbreaker". Are you sure you arent just doubling the base attack stat in your head? because thats not how huge power works.
Crawdaunt from B- to B
I don't have much time rn to write a lot about this, but I feel like Crawdaunt should rise. It's not seeing as much usage as it was in (I believe) early ORAS, but if you give it a try, this thing is still a monster capable of demolishing a lot of common mons.
I had a battle yesterday where I got to +2 after a Latios Draco, and then cleanly won from there - beating a Lando-T, Gus, Clef, Latios, and Torn-T. Crawdaunt gets the second best move in the game in knock off and can afford to purely run stabs due to adaptability and how hard it hits with life orb. Jolly LO ohkos Clef and Amoongus from full at +1, ohkos Rotom after rocks at +1, ohkos Ferro and SpDef Skarm (who uses physdef lol) at +2, and HELL IT EVEN OHKOS THE SMOGON SPREAD OF BULKY MEGA ZOR AT +2 (if it's not hitting 229 speed ofc) WHICH IS FUCKING POWERFUL. It also helps that recent meta trends have made things like Ttar, Diancie, and Tran more popular, and common builds usually can only handle Crawdaunt with Keldeo. Amoongus has seen a huge rise in usage over Mega Venusaur (which is what I believe made Crawdaunt fall in the first place), which is another hard Crawdaunt check gone.
Its speed sucks but like other slow, hard hitters you can make an effective VoltTurn core with things such as Rotom/Lando/Scizor and really wreck shit. I didn't go into too much in-depth as I'm simply nominating it for B, and I wanted to hear what others would have to say! I've tried out CB but I feel it's inferior to SD tbh.
I don't have much time rn to write a lot about this, but I feel like Crawdaunt should rise. It's not seeing as much usage as it was in (I believe) early ORAS, but if you give it a try, this thing is still a monster capable of demolishing a lot of common mons.
I had a battle yesterday where I got to +2 after a Latios Draco, and then cleanly won from there - beating a Lando-T, Gus, Clef, Latios, and Torn-T. Crawdaunt gets the second best move in the game in knock off and can afford to purely run stabs due to adaptability and how hard it hits with life orb. Jolly LO ohkos Clef and Amoongus from full at +1, ohkos Rotom after rocks at +1, ohkos Ferro and SpDef Skarm (who uses physdef lol) at +2, and HELL IT EVEN OHKOS THE SMOGON SPREAD OF BULKY MEGA ZOR AT +2 (if it's not hitting 229 speed ofc) WHICH IS FUCKING POWERFUL. It also helps that recent meta trends have made things like Ttar, Diancie, and Tran more popular, and common builds usually can only handle Crawdaunt with Keldeo. Amoongus has seen a huge rise in usage over Mega Venusaur (which is what I believe made Crawdaunt fall in the first place), which is another hard Crawdaunt check gone.
Its speed sucks but like other slow, hard hitters you can make an effective VoltTurn core with things such as Rotom/Lando/Scizor and really wreck shit. I didn't go into too much in-depth as I'm simply nominating it for B, and I wanted to hear what others would have to say! I've tried out CB but I feel it's inferior to SD tbh.
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