Serious US Election Thread (read post #2014)

[manodelrey]

http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2016/03/13/video-ted-cruz-will-support-republican-nominee-whoever/

He's a hypocrite.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/22/politics/donald-trump-ted-cruz-endorsement/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...er-jfk-assassin-cruz-goes-ballistic/83874972/

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/22/politics/ted-cruz-melania-trump-twitter-donald-trump-heidi/

Cruz has more integrity than me. If someone did this, I would have gone on stage and listed off everything wrong with him and every few seconds just piped in there that trump not only voted for the democrats, but financially supported Hillary Clinton. Also would have pointed out that he isn't a great business man and that he got a huge amount of money from daddy that he lost and maybe if there was time, go down the entire list of things he has changed his position on within a couple of days

 

[Shiny_Tyranitar]

Ball is in your court Hillary defender

With all due respect, I think you missed the point of my post. The post was never intended to say that Hillary is without fault. The point was that you brought up Hillary's honesty as a character issue. However, politfact rates her as fundamentally honest (in contrast to Trump, who I believe they ranked as the most dishonest person they've ever assessed, Cruz being being only slightly less dishonest than Trump). So, unless you're willing to say "let's fact check the fact checkers" or "Reality has a well known liberal bias," then we have to admit that this notion of her being dishonest is without merit.

 

[Bughouse]

hillary has picked tim kaine for her vp nom. from what i've read he seems to be way more of a moderate, but i don't know much about him. he was vetted for the obama campaign as well tho and has a pretty decent cv from skimming.

Yeah he's an interesting democrat. Personally pro life due to his Catholic faith and had an F rating from pro choice groups as governor... but then had a perfect record from them while in the Senate. He doesn't believe (anymore at least) that his personal faith should dictate public policy. When he was shown evidence that abstinence-only sex ed didn't work, he eliminated state funding for it and replaced it with actual sex-ed. All in all, this shows me he's the type of leader I want - someone who is genuine and has personal convictions but puts the good of society first.

He's fluent in Spanish (as if Hillary needed help with Latinos cuz trump lol but anyway) and has a pretty good record on the environment, civil rights, education, immigration reform, and gun control. He also comes across as very likable, which is something Hillary knows she is lacking.

But he definitely won't excite progressives because even though he has an amazing record on things like public housing and homelessness, he has what they consider pretty meh-to-bad positions on trade, banking regulation, and healthcare.

As for his CV? Yeah it was the best CV in the bunch she was vetting by far. I thought she'd go the "excite the left" strategy, but with this pick she's pretty clearly just trying to replay the 2012 reelection strategy. Kaine is a pretty similar guy to Biden and Hillary is pretty similar to Obama. The demographics have changed in a slightly positive way, the economy is better than in 2012, and she's got Virginia now more locked up than before. And Obama won in 2012 by 4 points, or 126 electoral votes.

i.e. she's playing it safe. If it's the same map as 2012, but Florida, Ohio, and New Hampshire flip over to Trump - aka what the Clinton campain views as a worst case scenario, since they clearly don't think they can lose Pennsylvania (and with Kaine she definitely holds onto Virginia), Clinton would still win 281-257.

 

[Alfalfa]

Yeah he's an interesting democrat. Personally pro life due to his Catholic faith and had an F rating from pro choice groups as governor... but then had a perfect record from them while in the Senate. He doesn't believe (anymore at least) that his personal faith should dictate public policy. When he was shown evidence that abstinence-only sex ed didn't work, he eliminated state funding for it and replaced it with actual sex-ed. All in all, this shows me he's the type of leader I want - someone who is genuine and has personal convictions but puts the good of society first.

Alternatively, he could really have changed his position to appease his party, which, although cynical, is a very legitimate suspicion when it comes to politics.

 

[manodelrey]

With all due respect, I think you missed the point of my post. The post was never intended to say that Hillary is without fault. The point was that you brought up Hillary's honesty as a character issue. However, politfact rates her as fundamentally honest (in contrast to Trump, who I believe they ranked as the most dishonest person they've ever assessed, Cruz being being only slightly less dishonest than Trump). So, unless you're willing to say "let's fact check the fact checkers" or "Reality has a well known liberal bias," then we have to admit that this notion of her being dishonest is without merit.

So you ignored everything I said about Hillary and every scandal of hers and still called her honest? If you ignore everytime Hillary lied then she is actually pretty honest. I can't believe the mental gymnastics you are doing to convince yourself that Hillary is honest

 

[Alfalfa]

@mandolerey I do not think that anybody is going to question that Hillary has lied before - for example, there is video proof that she never landed under sniper fire in Bosnia. They are just trying to point out that the videos you provided on Hillary lying took some of her quotes out of context. Before you label me as a Hillary supporter (which I am NOT), keep in mind that when it comes to politics, people do tend to cherry pick quotes and take things out of context. Hillary has definitely changed her positions on a number of issues (NAFTA, gay marriage), but keep in mind that people making videos criticizing political figures are fully capable of disregarding context and cherry-picking information. Both liberals AND conservatives do this.

 

[manodelrey]

@mandolerey I do not think that anybody is going to question that Hillary has lied before - for example, there is video proof that she never landed under sniper fire in Bosnia. They are just trying to point out that the videos you provided on Hillary lying took some of her quotes out of context. Before you label me as a Hillary supporter (which I am NOT), keep in mind that when it comes to politics, people do tend to cherry pick quotes and take things out of context. Hillary has definitely changed her positions on a number of issues (NAFTA, gay marriage), but keep in mind that people making videos criticizing political figures are fully capable of disregarding context and cherry-picking information. Both liberals AND conservatives do this.

My entire post isn't just cherry picked things. It's numerous scandals of hers that go back to before she was even in the white house. Her entire career has been based on this and it has still continued through her email scandal.

She is still doing it

When someone goes and says she is an honest politician, I have to decide whether the person is a troll or just dumb

 

[shaian]

NATO members are expected to spend 2% of their GDP on defense and those countries are not holding up their end of the bargain compared to how much the US is spending on defense

I'm not doubting that but in the large discourse of geopolitical relationships Trumps statement betrays a very ignorant understanding of the nature of the geopolitical relationships and interests in the Baltic region, the greater North-Eastern European region, and tacitly undermines US relations with US-NATO ally relations in general. One other defence I've heard regarding his statements was that Trump would never actually follow through with his threats, but that doesn't really mean anything as, amongst other things, it's purely hypothetical. What is real though is that the nature of rhetoric that he frequently opts for betrays a very isolationist, very nationalistic ideology and that is what should be worried about, especially so due to the rather alarming rebirth of nationalist groups in Europe.

 

[Lavos]

nationalism is warmongering. historical empirics prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt. if you want war, fine. but don't say you weren't warned

 

[Chou Toshio]

I don't how anyone can respect that rat fink Cruz. Says he will support the nominee; then doesn't support the nominee. What a liar.

Can't blame him when the nominee is Trump. Considering the circumstances, he did good.

 

[billymills]

I thought the RNC just cemented the fact that Trump really isn't an outlier. The rest of the republican party is just as crazy as he is.

I'm surprised you'd consider Cruz a better candidate than Trump.

 

[The_Emperor]

I don't understand how, on the day, anyone can vote for Trump. Hillary is always going to be better. I don't care if she involved in email scandals, that doesn't matter anymore. Trump oozes negativity and if he comes to power, that will say a lot about how people's brains work in the USA...

 

[manodelrey]

I don't understand how, on the day, anyone can vote for Trump. Hillary is always going to be better. I don't care if she involved in Breaking Federal law, that doesn't matter anymore since she doesn't have to operate like us peasants. Trump oozes negativity and if he comes to power, that will say a lot about how people's brains work in the USA...

Allow me to correct your statement. Also like how there is another scandal proving how corrupt Hillary is with these DNC leaks. Have we even found the end of her corruption?

 

[Chou Toshio]

I got to admit that the wiki leaks issue throws my scales off again... Just wait for what happens at the DNC convention.

I don't care too much if Bernie maintains his endorsement-- but hope he and everyone else do an honest assessment of the information, that those accountable are dealt their proper dealing, and that this matter is handled in some satisfactory means.

If it is somehow ignored and swept under the rug by both the DNC and Sanders campaign, I honestly will be joining the Bernie bros or becoming undecided.

 

[colours]

Allow me to correct your statement. Also like how there is another scandal proving how corrupt Hillary is with these DNC leaks. Have we even found the end of her corruption?

Where's the evidence that Clinton herself is involved in this? Every news story I can honestly find says more about the Democratic leadership than Clinton herself. None ever name Clinton specifically.

 

[termi]

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016...-stop-insisting-that-everything-is-going-well

This article hits the nail on the head with regards to the smugness and self-righteousness of many a Clinton supporter and the unwillingness of the Democratic party establishment to appeal to a more progressive public (which, as Sanders has proven, is quite large). Choosing the right winger Kaine as VP instead of someone like Warren only proves this. It also explains that while Trump may not bring a lot of great solutions to the table, at least he's acknowledging that the white working class has problems, even though he misidentifies them (seeing immigration rather than laissez faire capitalism as the main source of these problems). Meanwhile, the Democratic party establishment prefers to downplay these problems, which is not only wrong, but also an extremely stupid thing to do, strategically. You're not winning over anyone by telling them how stupid and racist they supposedly are. The Democratic needs a progressive figurehead that can level with the working class instead of kicking down at it. Only then are you able to win people over, and yes, even potential Trump supporters can be won over if you treat them like actual people rather than "stupid racist hicks" or whatever.

Please read the article and, if you're a Clinton supporter, self-reflect. One thing both sides of the presidential campaign are sorely lacking is self-reflection.

 

[Outlaw]

Once again, nothing will happen to legally incompetent Clinton. That chairman lady is going to take the fall for her.

 

[colours]

I don't see what picking Kaine over Warren has to do with anything. I really like Warren, but what states would Clinton really win with her help? She's in no danger of losing
Massachusetts. If you're going to pick a VP, you might as well pick one from a swing state to already gain a head start.

 

[Shrug]

the problem with warren (imo) is that she's too good - shes more exciting and overall a better politician (in the campaigning sense) than H. R Clinton, and there are dangers in being the secondary attraction on your ticket. kaine seems kinda pretty right for the democrats though which is alarming; there are better people than him who are not warren (who was never getting on)

 

[termi]

I don't see what picking Kaine over Warren has to do with anything. I really like Warren, but what states would Clinton really win with her help? She's in no danger of losing
Massachusetts. If you're going to pick a VP, you might as well pick one from a swing state to already gain a head start.

Warren's just a random example of someone who could appeal to a public outside of moderate liberals, but Clinton apparently prefers to rely on people who vote on her because she's not Trump to win the election instead of trying to get as many people as possible at least somewhat excited for her. I find this somewhat of a dickish move coming from a person who's supposed to represent the people as a president.

Once again, nothing will happen to legally incompetent Clinton. That chairman lady is going to take the fall for her.

How many more times do I have to tell you to stop posting completely unfounded one-liners instead of making a post with actual argumentation, sources, or fucking anything. Like, I don't expect much from the guy who doesn't want to vote Clinton because she once said something bad about video games or whatever, but at least have the courtesy to stop posting if you have nothing to contribute at all.

 

[colours]

Warren's just a random example of someone who could appeal to a public outside of moderate liberals, but Clinton apparently prefers to rely on people who vote on her because she's not Trump to win the election instead of trying to get as many people as possible at least somewhat excited for her. I find this somewhat of a dickish move coming from a person who's supposed to represent the people as a president.

This is a fair point to make in all honesty, and I can completely understand why most progressives aren't exactly happy with Kaine. But in picking Kaine, she's making a decision that's saying that this race is bigger than just the election itself; she wants someone who will actually do what the VP role is actually meant for: to help step in and govern when the President ultimately is unable to for any reason.

 

[Bughouse]

js calling Kaine a right winger doesn't make him one lmao.

http://acuratings.conservative.org/...gs/?year1=2015&chamber=13&state1=0&sortable=7

Tim Kaine's lifetime rating (3 years) in the Senate from the American Conservative Union is a 0. The only senator with that rating, btw.

 

[termi]

js calling Kaine a right winger doesn't make him one lmao.

http://acuratings.conservative.org/...gs/?year1=2015&chamber=13&state1=0&sortable=7

Tim Kaine's lifetime rating (3 years) in the Senate from the American Conservative Union is a 0. The only senator with that rating, btw.

Perhaps he did change for the better, but do keep in mind that back when he was running for governor he deemed himself conservative enough to publicize messages like this one on the radio.

Also, I know this is something that might be confusing for Americans due to their different usage of political terminology and rightist political climate, but when I talk about right wingers I do not necessarily mean conservatives or anything of the sort. Democrats may generally be socially liberal these days, but economically they are as neoliberal as can be, which makes them right-of-center overall (one confusing thing about political terminology is that being socially liberal is associated with leftism whereas economic liberalism is decidedly rightist). When I'm talking about a progressive politician, I don't mean one who simply supports social rights for minorities (although these are progressive traits, of course), but one who is willing to seriously tackle the problem of economic inequality. In any case, I know that Kaine is clearly not leftist or progressive by this definition.

 

[Outlaw]

How many more times do I have to tell you to stop posting completely unfounded one-liners instead of making a post with actual argumentation, sources, or fucking anything. Like, I don't expect much from the guy who doesn't want to vote Clinton because she once said something bad about video games or whatever, but at least have the courtesy to stop posting if you have nothing to contribute at all.

Considering this is the first time you've ever responded to me; many more. Cause I'm not going to stop making fun of Crooked Hillary and how she weasels her way out of everything via fall guy or other; ever.

Or how so many continue to support someone the FBI declared legally incompetent.

 

[termi]

Considering this is the first time you've ever responded to me; many more. Cause I'm not going to stop making fun of Crooked Hillary and how she weasels her way out of everything via fall guy or other; ever.

Or how so many continue to support someone the FBI declared legally incompetent.

Oh sorry, I thought I responded to you before telling you it's time to stop, but I guess until now I just complained about your dreadful posting behaviour to others.

In any case, this thread is focused on actual discussion, not on making fun of another's preferred political candidate because they are involved in a scandal or are orange and have funny hair or whatever. This is cong, not firebot. If you want to incite a discussion about whether or not Clinton should be indicted for the email scandal, be my guest, but then put more effort in your posts, provide arguments as to why you feel like she should be indicted, and basically just avoid repeating Trump's one-liners ad infinitum. Your postings as they are right now do not call for discussion, do not add anything we didn't already know to the thread, and even fail to be entertaining. If you want to vent your frustrations about the fact that Clinton "weasels her way out of everything", by all means do it, but do it on IRC or Skype or Firebot or any other place where you're not cluttering up discussions with one-liners no one gives half a damn about.

Carry on.