Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[Srn]

Lol you guys are giving medicham a little TOO much credit as a wallbreaker.

I will admit that its arguably the best wallbreaker in the tier right now, but the fact that mega sableye, a pokemon seen on pretty much every good stall team, hard walls mega medicham goes against its favor quite a bit. The fact that the wallbreaker and mega pokemon of your team is almost completely useless against stall is enough reason for it to stay A. Atleast keldeo can scald burn and icy wind or hp flying to eventually overwhelm amoongus, but mega medicham is very reliant on teammates weakening mega sableye for it, and any competent stall player will keep their msab healthy enough for cham. Unless you get an ice punch freeze, its almost impossible for cham to put in work against msab stall.

Everybody already knows its other flaws: its not that fast or bulky, in contrast to pokemon like terrakion, thundurus, cb ttar, or mega heracross, which can all wallbreak fairly sufficiently and bring much more to the table. There's plenty of competition not only for wallbreakers but also for megas, and just having mega medicham on the team means you're going to have to dedicate atleast 1-2 pokemon as pivots to bring it in to use it well.

Take a look at every other pokemon in A+
Mega Diancie checks key threats to offense and has a difficult to wall stab combo as well as excellent stats and typing; it does more than just attack.
Keldeo, Latios, TTar, Mega Scizor, Torn-t, Heatran, LanT, and Rotom-w are all some of the best at the several roles they bring to any team, and if they only do one thing they do it fucking well without much support (or they ARE the support)
What mega medi does best is simply hjk, and that'd be great if that was all it had to do to screw any slower team over, but the mere presence of mega sableye means your wallbreaker might be completely useless at its only job.

Mega medi's good, but its far from A+, especially in the newer standards of ou vr.

 

[Vert]

what the hell???? i stopped reading after the pokemon "rampardos" and "medicham" were placed in line to line proximity,,,,

so ya'll trying to convince people medicham shouldn't rise because it doesn't do anything else besides wallbreak? hey, look the rotom-w is dead v. hey the rotom-w got its item knocked off. like which one would you have? isn't killing the opponent's pokemon utility itself? medicham shouldn't even be classified as a wallbreaker, it's a mafuckin' assassin

who cares if you are one-dimensional when every other top-tier mega pretty much runs only one set? (except m-sciz, hence why it's the best mega of choice rn). medicham should be a+ because it does its job all the time versus other "wallbreakers" which have their downsides in typing, movepool, or speed. medicham should be treated as an exception because the idea behind it rising is its movepool and raw stats. nothing more, nothing less. most of these arguments on medicham staying is theorymoning out my ass when in reality, medicham is always going to find a way to hand out L's unless you are running shit like reuni, sab, which can't fit on every team.

 

[Mon of Steel]

I would like to keep Medicham in A.

And before I begin, I would like to point out that I see something wrong with all the arguments from Medicham supporters: they aren’t really explaining to us why the downsides of Medicham aren’t a problem in the long run. Medicham supporters do acknowledge them, but merely dismiss them and just say over and over again, “Medicham’s bloodshed abilities are unrivaled.” The post above me is an example of this.

But I digress. What the side opposing Medicham have been saying are

• Speed isn’t enough to prevent revenge killing, which isn’t good because it hinders non-Stall matchups – even vs. the Stall, Mega Sableye will always be there, as it has infested the OU ladder at an alarming rate
• It isn’t splashable
• Little utility/one dimensional
• It defines the meta...how again? (Medicham supporters really need to make it clear how Medicham defines the meta.)

I would like to add another point, which is that it is more or less required that Medicham have VoltTurn support. This is a problem, because Medicham isn’t switching in on its own versus anything. This also means that, if its VoltTurn support is taken out, then Medicham’s switch in opportunities are heavily limited – as if they weren’t limited enough already. Furthermore, the most common pivots Medicham has – Rotom-W, Landorus-T, and Tornadus-T – are all worn down without too much issue, with the exception of Tornadus-T.

Even if Medicham had perfect pivots to give it assistance in combat, the fact that it relies pretty heavily on these pivots makes me ask myself again, should it really be in A+, considering it isn’t that independent and can’t really stand by itself? Especially considering its one dimensionality and lack of utility holding it back..

And before I end, I would like to say that Medicham supporters are really only saying one thing over and over again. “Medicham spills blood really well.” But I see few other supporting points. I would like to see what other points Medicham supporters have at their disposal.

 

[Gary]

God man why do people think that in order to be in a certain rank a Pokemon has to be fit some sort of definition? Well, it doesn't. Just because most of the Pokemon in A+ can run different sets, or preform multiple roles on a team, or are good glue Pokemon, or have good utility doesn't mean that Mega Medicham can't move up purely on its ability to wallbreak. Mega Medicham may not have the versatility, bulk, or even utility of many of the Pokemon found in A+, but there is nothing in the tier that can really compare to Mega Medi if you ask me. Outside of Mega Sableye stall or that shitty Doublade semi-stall, there really aren't THAT many counterplays to Mega Medicham, because if it gets a free opportunity to come in, it practically guarantees a kill. I compare it to Hoopa-U sometimes because while it may not be completely uncounterable or have an insane movepool, a well played Mega Medicham can be very difficult to play around. You can't reliably switch-in your Slowbro on High Jump Kick because it might have ThunderPunch, or your Bold Clefable because if it carries Zen Headbutt it 2HKOs you regardless. Heck while you can't spam HJK vs Mega Sableye squads, if you manage to keep it from healing up to full, you can get it down to a point where you can 2HKO it with an elemental punch on the switch, so it's not like you're guaranteed a free pass versus Mega Medi just because you're using Mega Sableye.

Mega Medicham breaks through practically every common defensive core in the tier, and unlike Mega Heracross it has a good enough Speed stat and powerful priority to actually pose more of a threat versus offense, which Mega Hera can struggle to do much against because it's outsped by mostly everything. In fact, when used on a fatter team, Mega Medi can afford to just come in on something like Mega Lopunny and threaten it out with Fake Out, forcing them into something like Lando-T or Ferrothorn which both just get smacked with Ice Punch or HJK. It's just so damn threatening. People are often just forced to dance around it with Intimidate from Lando-T into Slowbro praying they don't predict that and Ice Punch. And it's not even that difficult to get Mega Medi in for free, so don't try and use the "oh it's frail so it can't come in ever" argument. You have shit like Rotom-W and Lando-T which just bait things like Ferrothorn, other Lando-T, fat Chomp, Skarmory, Amoonguss, and even opposing Rotom-W which Mega Medi just loves, and even stuff like Latios which is really going to hate taking Volt Switch + hazard damage + prior Will-O burn + Fake Out. It just finds so many chances to come in and threaten the hell out of everything offensive and even defensive, and it only needs minimal support to do so.

Mega Medicham does for sure define the meta in a way. It's the tier's most influential wallbreaker that practically invalidates the use of mindless defensive cores, its able to be slapped onto lots of teams because of how easy it tears holes for sweepers to clean up, and outside of full stall it's practically never dead-weight. A well played Mega Medi should be netting 1-2 kills minimum. You don't need more than one job to be a top tier Pokemon, or A+ for that matter. Mega Medicham is just so good at what it does that it really doesn't need to have versatility or the ability to run multiple sets. Utility is usually only viewed at a defensive standpoint, but offensively Mega Medicham provides a TON of utility for its teammates.

I'm still not 100% sure on Mega Medi's placement either, but saying it's not worthy of A+ because it's not versatile or that it doesn't supply enough defensive synergy is bullshit.

 

[Colonel M]

I think the argument that Mega Medicham isn't worthy of A+ due to lack of utility is rather silly considering Fake Out, (Bullet Punch), and Knock Off (shut up I mixed up Gallade and Medichams moveset) are part of Mega Medicham's repitoire and they boast utility (revenge killing / removing items).

And like many said Mega Medicham is already a difficult target to switch into. Even though Mega Medicham's STABs are exploitable it is rare to be exploited by both (Mega Sableye is a rare exception).

I think Mega Medicham's offensive prowess with additional minor utility help justify its A+ ranking.

I also want to go back and voice Mamoswine rising as well. The amount of fat Grass-types rising helps justify the rise at the least. The person from the previous page had some good arguments for it IMO.

 

[skies]

medicham doesnt learn knock off

 

[Mon of Steel]

You guys are looking at our utility argument the wrong way.

Medicham supporters, as far as I can see, have only ONE point: the fact that Medicham has superpowers. When we say it has no utility, we mean there's nothing else going for it – no ability to spread status, no ability to switch in, no ability to pivot, etc., something which mons in A+ all have.

It is this that we are emphasizing. If we are to raise Medicham, we must know that it is ONLY because it has power – nothing else to it. Everyone – both sides – have been overlooking this. If Medicham supporters have secondary points, they really need to be brought up.

It is this that we are trying to tell opponents over and over, but somewhere in the communication, things get...tangled.

And it is because of this point that we are standing against Medicham. After all, we could raise other mons, such as Rampardos and Tyrantrum, for the same reason. What makes Medicham stand out?

Of course, my last point should not be taken seriously – it is something called satire. It is merely to bring attention to the fact that Medicham is being brought up for one point and one point only, and to ask opponents if this is truly worthwhile.

 

[blank]

You guys are looking at our utility argument the wrong way.

Medicham supporters, as far as I can see, have only ONE point: the fact that Medicham has superpowers. When we say it has no utility, we mean there's nothing else going for it – no ability to spread status, no ability to switch in, no ability to pivot, etc., something which mons in A+ all have.

It is this that we are emphasizing. If we are to raise Medicham, we must know that it is ONLY because it has power – nothing else to it. Everyone – both sides – have been overlooking this. If Medicham supporters have secondary points, they really need to be brought up.

It is this that we are trying to tell opponents over and over, but somewhere in the communication, things get...tangled.

And it is because of this point that we are standing against Medicham. After all, we could raise other mons, such as Rampardos and Tyrantrum, for the same reason. What makes Medicham stand out?

Of course, my last point should not be taken seriously – it is something called satire. It is merely to bring attention to the fact that Medicham is being brought up for one point and one point only, and to ask opponents if this is truly worthwhile.

a pokemon having a certain utility isn't necessary for it to be a certain rank... that's why there aren't definitions anymore. what medi lacks in "utility" it makes up for in power & the pressure it applies in the teambuilder. it's a super scary breaker that has very few counters, and it isn't super slow. i don't really want to reiterate these points because i think gary & vertex covered them well, and i'm pretty neutral (leaning towards A+) on medi rising. however, the argument that "it doesn't provide utility" isn't really a good one when it has pros that outweigh the lack of "utility" or whatever else.

if people disagree with a rise, i think the discussion should be about WHY the pros that have been mentioned don't outweigh the cons, and how medi compares to the current A+ mons... by this i don't mean "scizor has a lot of sets medi doesn't blah blah", i mean comparing how much influence they have, the pressure they can apply in builder & in battles, w.e. :p

 

[Gary]

And the reason why that argument isn't realistic is because who cares if Mega Medicham can only do one thing if it's so damn good at it? It doesn't need to spread status, it just kills practically anything that wants to switch into it. It doesn't need to switch into stuff when you have so many things that can be slapped onto a team to give it momentum, and don't try to act like Mega Diancie is this pivoting god, because rarely do you ever switch it into something.

Comparing Mega Medicham to Rampardos and Tyrantrum is asinine. Tyrantrum and Rampardos may be strong but they have a slew of other flaws that keep them from being able to wallbreak as effectively, and I really shouldn't have to list them out should I? Mega Medicham is the BEST in the tier when it comes to overall wallbreaking, because outside of very select few Pokemon in the tier you can almost always depend on Mega Medicham to break through your common defensive cores. While stuff like Mega Heracross or Crawdaunt may be able to break through a few things that Mega Medicham can't, the biggest difference between it and all the other wallbreakers is how splashable it is. You can pretty much just slap it on most builds in need of a strong hole puncher and it fits the bill quite nicely, especially bulkier builds that hate those opposing fat builds. Other wallbreakers like Mega Charizard require lots of team support, and other stuff like Mega Heracross depend a lot on taking hits due to their low Speed. Mega Medi has all the tools a wallbreaker needs in the tier; good enough Speed, insane power, and coverage. Yeah it's frail, but you're not using it to take hits, and it shouldn't be put into situations where it's forced to take hits.

If something is considered the best at what it does, I don't see why it still needs all these other qualities to put it in A+. You should stop worrying so much about comparing their versatility/utility/pivoting abilities and focus on how much pressure or support it can provide for a team on an offensive standpoint. Heatran is A+ because of its amazing offensive and defensive abilities and overall utility, while something like Mega Scizor is A+ for its ability to sweep so effectively because of its bulk, typing, etc. Mega Medicham can be A+ because of how pressures practically any team lacking Mega Sableye or Reuniclus, it has no switch-ins, and it provides team with an immense amount of wallbreaking support which makes it a great choice for a lot of builds.

 

[Serlthree]

I support Mega Cham being in A+. I mean, look at Rotom-W, Rotom-W's only role is a pivot that spread status, and Rotom-W excels at it. Same thing with Hoopa-U (a long time ago.) It was A+ not because of anything but it's insane wallbreaking potential. The only problems Medicham has is that it has low speed and it can't hold any items since it's a mega evolution.

 

[Celticpride]

My gosh please stop mentioning Rampardos of all things. I'm just gonna start deleting posts that mention it as an arguing point.

 

[Colonel M]

medicham doesnt learn knock off

Yeah the heat got to me and I mixed up Medicham and Gallade's moveset. I barely use Medicham but I know it beats the piss out of most slower teams.

 

[matthewc20090]

I'd like to nom crawdaunt to b just because its sd set is rly threatening rn. Looking at the vr there's literally nothing that wants to come into a set of sd/knock/jet/hammer and the only things that can rly stop it after an sd is faster revenge killers that resist water i.e. Latis, mana, breloom. Rise of stall and sand also helps because it absolutely shits on both. Also outspeeds supposed checks like rotom and mega Venu and beats them after an sd and rocks. Resisting priority moves (shard jet bullet) also helps it sweep. Frailty kinda lets it down a bit but lando and rotom exist so it's pretty easy to get in.

also agree with medi moving up just cause it's the best wall breaker in the meta

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

I mentioned before in my Magneton post a decent point. To paraphrase: "A Pokemon's viability is greatly enhanced if they have a variety of rules to fulfill, but it can be made up for by a One-Trick-Pony if that one trick is done like no other Pokemon." This is the reason why Magneton failed, but why Mega Medicham might succeed.

We're talking about a Pokemon that can LITERALLY 2HKO the metagame--yes, it can even 2HKO 252/252+ Hippowdon and Quagsire with Hi Jump Kick, while having a 99.6% chance to 2HKO 252/252+ Slowbro with Thunder Punch after Stealth Rock. If I may point out like everybody, that's insane. We're talking about a Pokemon that cannot be switched into very easily; you might get lucky with a Gengar switch on Hi Jump Kick, but what if they predict and use Zen Headbutt? What if they run Bullet Punch, which has a 93.4% to 2HKO after Stealth Rock? Intimidate users like Landorus and Gyarados cannot switch in safely, since the fourth move is a decent tossup between Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, and Bullet Punch (I'd argue that Zen Headbutt is a safe alternative when you need to bank on a move hitting in comparison to Hi Jump Kick sometimes). Of course, my opinion doesn't matter because I'm the one jackass that runs a SubPunch set and called a pleb, but I know the main selling points where others don't. I mean...comparing it to Rampardos and Tyrantrum is unfair; Rampardos has a significant speed problem and Tyrantrum is a set-up sweeper, completely different from Megacham's immediate wall breaking power. The closest comparison I can think of is Kyurem-B, but even that's a bit of a stretch because it has the ability to go mixed. Megacham is physical power all the way, a Pokemon no other would want to come into.

I'd argue that Mega Medicham has next to no counters, since there is no safe switch-in that can immediately threaten it without risking its own skin. Reuniclus is a great counter, since it can reliably switch-in, only risks a 3HKO, and can set up Calm Mind and Recovers easily. Tied with it, Mega Sableye is a very safe switch-in, even punishing Megacham for using Hi Jump Kick. Coming in as well is Mega Slowbro, which doesn't care about even Thunder Punch (it's also immune to Critical Hits!). Mew would be second, but risks a 2HKO after Stealth Rock, assuming the 252/0 spread.

No matter what I said, however, they are NOTHING compared to the ultimate stop to Mega Medicham: Cofagrigus.

Kill me. A Pokemon considered a gimmick is the best answer to this thing.

Not only does it prevent Hi Jump Kick spam, but merely touching it removes Pure Power (not to mention its access to Will-O-Wisp and Hex).

So...

We're talking about a Pokemon which is only hard stopped by four Pokemon, two of which are below OU and one of them barely sees the light of OU to begin with. That's pathetic.

Checking Megacham is still relatively difficult due to its coverage moves, which means scouting its moveset is necessary to find out what it's running. Without Ice Punch, Landorus-Therian can safely switch in and Intimidate it while setting up on its own. Without Thunder Punch, Slowbro has a field day crippling it with Scald. Without Zen Headbutt (I've seen people not use it), Clefable absolutely laughs at it. Pokemon like Gliscor and Gyarados seem like good switch-ins, but Zen Headbutt devastates them (hence why I like running the move). Hippowdon and Quagsire, as mentioned above, cannot switch into Hi Jump Kick, even when fully invested in Physical Defense and HP.

Revenge Killing Megacham is, unfortunately (or fortunately!), the best way to deal with it. Even with Bullet Punch being a thing on it, most Pokemon that can outspeed it threaten it. Talonflame is Revenge Killer Number One; it can either Brave Bird to kill it off or Wisp+Roost Stall to whittle its health away. Gengar outspeeds Megacham, only really risking a 2HKO after Stealth Rock from Bullet Punch while OHKOing easily with Shadow Ball. Keldeo deals massive damage with Hydro Pump, OHKOing easily with Specs and Life Orb. Latios has a 93.8% chance to OHKO with Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock while unboosted. Mega Lopunny's Fake Out + Return KOs. Mega Pinsir's Return does a hilariously high amount of damage. Choice Specs Raikou's Shadow Ball is a guaranteed OHKO. Serperior does 84.2% minimum with Leaf Storm. Starmie's Scald does 85.8% minimum. Thundurus has a 25% chance to OHKO with Thunderbolt after Stealth Rock. Tornadus-Therian can OHKO with Hurricane, but has to worry about shaky accuracy. Weavile's Icicle Crash does 74.7% minimum. In Sandstorm, Excadrill outspeeds and OHKOs with Earthquake without worry.

Keep in mind, however, that the above are merely Revenge Killers and all have extreme difficulty switching in. Basically, the best way to get rid of Megacham is to either run Reuniclus, Megabro, Megaeye, or Cofagrigus (why?) or be prepared to sacrifice a Pokemon in order to Revenge Kill it (which is also outrageous). It seems like this would be a centralizing Pokemon when those are the absolute safest ways to keep it off the field.

Despite all of the credit I give Megacham, it has its issues. For starters, Base Medicham has an awful speed, almost forcing it to run Fake Out in order to safely Mega Evolve. Even after that, Base 100 is good, but not fantastic, leaving it outsped by multiple Pokemon, particularly Choice Scarf Pokemon--even Choice Scarf Tyranitar is outspeeding and dealing 58.6% with Crunch. Pokemon like Ferrothorn and TankChomp guarantee that if they go down, the Revenge Killer will have an easier time taking it down, thanks to it being a Physical Attacker; the combination of Rocky Helmet and their respective abilities will leave Megacham with 70.88% HP remaining after the attack, which is just low enough for multiple Pokemon to Revenge Kill. This also doesn't consider Hi Jump Kick's accuracy and downside when it misses, though Lopunny has the same accuracy issue as well (Scrappy helps against Ghost-Types, though).

With people trying to find out Megacham's flaws in order to prevent a rise, why aren't people doing a similar thing with Mega Scizor? Mega Scizor is undoubtedly dangerous and powerful, but many would argue that there are Pokemon that can handle it even easier; multiple Pokemon carry Hidden Power Fire for it now, while its checks like Landorus-T, Quagsire, and Heatran stick around well. Both have issues, but they do their jobs outstandingly well.

Considering that Megacham's power is so unrivaled that all bar Landorus-T in all of A can switch in, and that there is no other Pokemon that can do its job as well as it can, I can safely say that I support Mega Medicham rising to A+. I probably missed a few points, but most good ones were used before.

Happy Battling.

Oh, and sorry this wasn't as intricate as my normal posting. Been working on side projects all day and wanted to make sure this was posted before it became irrelevant.

 

[Seth_]

It's not fair to say that only mega sableye and doublade are mega medicham counters. There are way more things able to safely switch in this monster and force switch out. Defensive Mew, Reuniculus, Cresselia can switch into any Medicham move. These sets are quite uncommon right now but day after day they are gaining popularity and you should be aware of that.

I'm not saying medicham should stay in A or move in A+.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

It's not fair to say that only mega sableye and doublade are mega medicham counters. There are way more things able to safely switch in this monster and force switch out. Defensive Mew, Reuniculus, Cresselia can switch into any Medicham move. These sets are quite uncommon right now but day after day they are gaining popularity and you should be aware of that.

I'm not saying medicham should stay in A or move in A+.

Considering the fact that the common stallbreaker Mew (and most I play vs anyways) are SpDef has a 32% chance of getting 2hkod on the switch (or gets 2hkod with rocks), and literally no one uses Cresselia in OU, Reuniclus is the only good answer there. I love running Reuniclus nowadays for that reason, lol.

Also not sure why people say that Medicham "having too much power" is a drawback and that you can "usually use less". If you're building/using Medicham in the first place it's BECAUSE you want THAT much power. You want it to hit hard and get a kill every time it comes in. If your team needs more speed, you'd use MegaLop. Better coverage/typing? MDiancie. More bulk/utility? MZor. More power/no switch ins? Medi. There's teams where sure, you can (or should) opt for another mega. But if you want to kill every mon in front of you, you use Medicham bc it's so good at that.

My two cents on the whole "utility" is that it's a dumb argument. Why would you wanna opt for utility when you can have a dead mon? "Yeah let me knock off Clef's lefties on the switch" as opposed to "Let me click HJK and 2ohko Clef on the switch". Now if you really need the utility and don't need power, don't use Medi. It's not like raising it to A+ means everyone needs to use it - it just means it's insanely good - the best actually - at what it does, breaking walls. But no more of the "you're fine with less power most of the time" because that's the reason to use Medi in the first place.

 

[Martin]

I think MegaCham should prolly move up at this point and I think a lot of the reasons people are using for why it shouldn't are pretty fucking terrible, but for what it's worth Clefable is generally speaking a pretty consistent answer to it on the basis that it generally goes bold nowadays and because Zen Headbutt MegaCham (the only variant that can 2HKO bold Clefable) is basically nonexistent at this point with people generally favoring to carry BoltBeam over dual STABs--which can't break through bold variants without significant prior damage. Outside of that, Sab and a couple of other rlly niche 'mons/sets though, Medicham is almost guaranteed a kill or cripple every time it comes onto the field--and this is not something to be taken lightly at all, especially with the meta getting slow enough for adamant to thrive.

 

[Seth_]

Considering the fact that the common stallbreaker Mew (and most I play vs anyways) are SpDef has a 32% chance of getting 2hkod on the switch (or gets 2hkod with rocks), and literally no one uses Cresselia in OU, Reuniclus is the only good answer there. I love running Reuniclus nowadays for that reason, lol.

You really think I mean spdef mew as anserw?

I mean defensive mew. People run this nowadays.

 

[kek123]

A few down sides to mega medicham:
Although mega medicham is a very good pokemon it does have it down sides , one of them being is the as a pokemon its is very team specific by that I mean if your using mega medicham then your pretty much always going to be using it on Volt-turn balance I mean you can use it on other types of team but it not going to have the same type of impact as it would if it was on a Volt-turn team . Also your other 5 pokemon do not benefit by having medicham on the team unless it killing one of there checks or counter which the player should a void letting it do , where as mega scizor provides momentum a fairy resist and checks and counter other pokemon for the team like it can switch into none Hp fire latios and for diancie it provides hazard control for the rest of it team which is massive . Also medicham isnt as splash-able as say mega scizor and mega diancie because it only add killing power.

The general theme of the current A+ rank it that they don't need very much support like none of them has to be play on a set style were as medicham has to be ran on Volt-turn to make to the most of it .Also medicham has limited impact in some games as it does no fair to well versus team with Mega sab and HO as there no walls on HO so there nothing to break. Also it lack of ability to switch in to many thing hinders it and is another reason why it pretty much has to be run on Volt-turn.

Over all I am neutral on weather Medicham goes up or not I'm definitely not against it but I wanted to mention some flaws that I think it has.

 

[JosephCottone]

I think that Medicham-Mega should stay where it is because it's sets are powerful when supported correctly. It has a wide variety of coverage moves but you should try to stick to pre made sets because they are good. If you make to many adjustments on it, it becomes less powerful and more reliant on its team mates. The ranking is based on the sets already made and they are strong.

 

[Jaroda]

Cresselia for C-/C rank

With all this talk about Mega Medicham being a nuisance, Cresselia is primed to rise out of D ranks as being one of the solo non-mega counters to Mega Medicham, as well as many viable wall breakers..

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 123-145 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- 81.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 96-113 (21.6 - 25.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 154-183 (34.7 - 41.3%) -- 70.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 180-213 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia in Sun: 252-297 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 220-261 (49.6 - 58.9%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 157-186 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- 86.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 109-130 (24.6 - 29.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Cresselia is so bulky it really doesn't care about Pursuit trappers much either.

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 288-338 (65 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Scarf Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 170-204 (38.3 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 282-332 (63.6 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Cresselia is so bulky is has no problems using both Reflect and Thunder Wave and able to escape any Pursuit trapper and still come in later. Surely a wall this bulky with access to Lunar Dance has enough merit in the current meta to rise above the D ranks. I'd recommend a better mix of Def and SpD EVs though to handle a broader range of threats. Obviously its downsides would include compounding Psychic weaknesses, poor offenses, Moonlight for recovery hindered by Sand, and really bad 4MSS. But I think it has a better defined niche currently that it's hard to say it isn't more viable than say Hoopa-C or Mega Blastoise.

 

[HailFall]

Rlly not seeing the reasoning behind this rise. We know its incredibly fat, but its equally passive with its terrible offensive stats, so its not fitting onto the offensive teams that actually appreciate lunar dance support. It only really fits on hard stall, an archetype which rarely deviates significantly from the standard sableye/chansey/skarm/quag/amoonguss/filler builds, and for good reason: this is what has been proven to work best. Its incredibly hard to fit onto teams for these reasons, and its not as effective at its job as you are making it out to be. Its entirely reliant on moonlight for recovery, meaning it is easily pp stalled out of them and it also has a very poor matchup against one of the most metagame defining archetypes atm, sand teams, due to it still being pursuit trapped even if it isnt OHKOed and having limited recovery in sand. I just dont see the justification for this rise in terms of metagame trends other than "mega medicham is everywhere right now so cresselia should rise". Cresselia is able to avoid the same KOs it did several months ago, so idk why this wall of calcs is suddenly relevant now. It isnt really proving a specific point other than "cress is fat af". There are plenty of incredibly bulky mons that are even unranked here just because they have such severe downsides, like lack of reliable recovery and passivity, both of which apply to cress. Im just trying to say that i cant agree with a rise based on bulk alone when several metagame trends are out of cresselia's favor (sand being everywhere, being mega scizor bait, etc.) and it has other crippling flaws which ive already discussed.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

My ultimate problem with Cresselia is how passive it is. No matter how bulky it is, it becomes absolute set-up fodder to some of the biggest Pokemon in the metagame right; Mega Scizor doesn't entirely mind Thunder Wave since it's slow already, while being able to tank every hit and boost with Swords Dance. Heatran is faster and can Taunt it, set up on its own well, then phase it out when done. It can't switch into Landorus-T, especially if it carries Swords Dance, or it U-Turns out into a better threat. Funnily enough, Landorus-T is not OHKO'd by Cresselia's Ice Beam while also boasting Thunder Wave Immunity. Excadrill laughs at both Thunder Wave and Toxic, with variants doing different amounts of hell; 252+ Mold Breaker variants have an 84.8% chance to 2HKO with Earthquake after Stealth Rock, while Sand Rush variants can easily set up in Sandstorm where Moonlight is nerfed and proceed to 2HKO with Iron Head (possibly flinching). Even more laughable, 0/0 Excadrill is only 5HKO'd by Ice Beam (Stealth Rock or not!), giving it ample opportunity. Clefable can set up Calm Mind relatively easily. Tyranitar's 252 Crunch 2HKOs while negating Leftovers and nerfing Moonlight with Sandstorm (Pursuit does the same amount of damage as Crunch when it is switching out). Choice Band Azumarill 2HKOs with Play Rough after Stealth Rock. Talonflame partially doesn't care for Thunder Wave, since Roost and Acrobatics get Priority, and with access to Swords Dance, it can boost itself to OHKO Cresselia after three Swords Dances. Weavile's Knock Off does at least 72.6%, while Bisharp's has a 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Gliscor can Toxic Stall thanks to being faster and Roost+Poison Heal healing back most, if not all, damage done by Ice Beam.

The problem is that people attempt to change the facts about how Cresselia is run when, in reality, the majority of the players will use specific spreads in order to cover specific checks. The spread I gave above is the most common spread and the only one given in the Smogon Analysis; saying it would commonly be running otherwise is twisting the common playing field to its advantage without giving justification outside of "It can tank this easier". If Cresselia ran 248/252+ Physical Defense, it loses any and all hope when switching into Gengar, Mega Alakazam, Serperior, Mega Diancie, Mega Charizard Y, and it then also loses against Calm Mind users quicker like Clefable and Raikou.

But let's then assume that Cresselia has to run 248/252+ Physical Defense for the sake of keeping up with the meta. You know what doesn't help its case, anyways? Lunar Dance is incredibly difficult to throw onto a moveset, bar the Trick Room set; Cresselia cannot afford to remove any part of its Defensive set, as Moonlight is its only recovery, Psychic is supposed to be its STAB, Ice Beam supposedly takes out common switch-ins like Landorus-T, and Thunder Wave cripples sweepers that would try to set up on it. What's it going to do for it against Tyranitar, which will just set up Sandstorm and force it out anyways since Moonlight is practically useless? +2 Excadrill still 2HKOs, Mega Scizor can still boost to +6 with little issue, then proceed to Knock Off OHKO or Bullet Punch 2HKO, Azumarill's Belly Drum Set still OHKO's at +6 with Play Rough and Knock Off, and Weavile and Bisharp? Knock Off does significant enough damage for a second attack to KO it, especially when factoring in Stealth Rock. The extra Physical Bulk does little in order to help it against some of the bigger threats while compromising its necessary Special Bulk.

There's a reason why Cresselia is ranked where it is. It's had the same problems before, but now multiplied with the popularity of specific Pokemon, making it even more difficult to fit onto teams. Its niche lies in Lunar Dance nowadays, which, as mentioned, it cannot easily fit into its moveset. These reasons above show that Cresselia's bulk is only good to an extent, even with more Physical bulk, and considering that it has the same problems as before, I vote to keep Cresselia D.

 

[Photofluid]

Even if MegaCham does make it, it is probably one of the weakest of the tier, and that placing probably won't survive a meta shift of any degree.

The common argument is that MegaCham hits so hard that its weakness does not matter, which is IMO just not the case. It is true that at the first glance its weaknesses has very little to do with what it does, but as a consequence of a series of interactions this is just not the case.

People have already discussed why VoltTurn support is mandatory, but I really don't think people have paid sufficient appreciation to the switch-in opportunities and momentum required to land a pokemon like MegaCham. You don't want to take any hits and you are not switching into anything faster than you. This puts huge constraint on team building, and arguably, more than any other pokemon A- or above barring maybe Zard Y and MegaZam I guess? Team reliance is a very big deal, as it would require you to run sub-optimal teammates, and would leave your MegaCham a deadweight when your team support start falling apart. Ofc, there are no doubts that MegaCham will do works with your investment, which is why it sits at A.

However, when we are to value things, we do not just consider the thing itself, we also consider the opportunity cost. With those kind of supports, there are just so many things to be done if we put another pokemon in that position, notably all those powerful setup sweepers at A- or above. Of course, Mega Cham probably does more stuffs most of the time, but on the basis that it requires more support than most of its peers. Look at the bigger picture this way and we start seeing why MegaCham is outstanding but probably not that outstanding, and this is the framework I base my arguments on.

Since the part of team constrain and team support already discussed I would like to move onto what exactly MegaCham does, and does not, when it got a free switch. And let's be real its damage potential is straight forward and has already been discussed thousands of times and I really have no interest in repeating them. So I will only focus on the drawbacks and why they matters.

With its speed tier and unimpressive priority, MegaCham is really vulnerable to revenge kill. The implication is that it is almost never going to sweep and puts a tough ceiling on its usefulness. Sure, it does major damage consistently, but rarely anything more than that.

On the other hand, as a wall breaker, its typing is really not doing it a favor. STAB HJK coming off from the second highest attack in the game is super flashy, yet is painfully resisted by half the meta, leaving it highly reliant on 75 power coverage moves. Fact is, MegaCham is really gated by its movepool on its power. Yes it does have decent coverage when it spends all 4 move slots onto it, but this leaves it super 1-dimensional and easy to plan against once the moveset is scouted. i.e. MegaCham sort of have some kind of 4MSS in that it really need too much moves to perfect its coverage, not just against checks but also against playstyles.

As a side note, some people seem to be disgusted by the fact that things like versatility and role compression are becoming mandatory qualities for high tier pokemon, while role specialists like MegaCham seem discriminated. Well, that is actually not the case. The problem is just that when a specialist pokemon make that high of the tier, especially at A+ or above which is by definition meta-defining, there is also an unfortunate side effect of centralizing the meta around its specialty, which then results a ban to uber. Specialists can make high tier, just that they also made Uber subsequently and leaves OU altogether.

Personally, I would even go as far as saying that any specialist pokemon with A+ quality is probably Uber quality as well. And the fact there is not even a suspect test (correct me if I am wrong) is the fundamental evidence that convinces me our best wallbreaker in the meta should probably stay at A.

 

[dk]

Even if MegaCham does make it, it is probably one of the weakest of the tier, and that placing probably won't survive a meta shift of any degree.

The common argument is that MegaCham hits so hard that its weakness does not matter, which is IMO just not the case. It is true that at the first glance its weaknesses has very little to do with what it does, but as a consequence of a series of interactions this is just not the case.

People have already discussed why VoltTurn support is mandatory, but I really don't think people have paid sufficient appreciation to the switch-in opportunities and momentum required to land a pokemon like MegaCham. You don't want to take any hits and you are not switching into anything faster than you. This puts huge constraint on team building, and arguably, more than any other pokemon A- or above barring maybe Zard Y and MegaZam I guess? Team reliance is a very big deal, as it would require you to run sub-optimal teammates, and would leave your MegaCham a deadweight when your team support start falling apart. Ofc, there are no doubts that MegaCham will do works with your investment, which is why it sits at A.

However, when we are to value things, we do not just consider the thing itself, we also consider the opportunity cost. With those kind of supports, there are just so many things to be done if we put another pokemon in that position, notably all those powerful setup sweepers at A- or above. Of course, Mega Cham probably does more stuffs most of the time, but on the basis that it requires more support than most of its peers. Look at the bigger picture this way and we start seeing why MegaCham is outstanding but probably not that outstanding, and this is the framework I base my arguments on.

Since the part of team constrain and team support already discussed I would like to move onto what exactly MegaCham does, and does not, when it got a free switch. And let's be real its damage potential is straight forward and has already been discussed thousands of times and I really have no interest in repeating them. So I will only focus on the drawbacks.

With its speed tier and unimpressive priority, MegaCham is really vulnerable to revenge kill. The implication is that it is almost never going to sweep and puts a tough ceiling on its usefulness. Sure, it does major damage consistently, but rarely anything more than that.

On the other hand, as a wall breaker, its typing is really not doing it a favor. STAB HJK coming off from the second highest attack in the game is super flashy, yet is painfully resisted by half the meta, leaving it highly reliant on 75 power coverage moves. Fact is, MegaCham is really gated by its movepool on its power. Yes it does have decent coverage when it spends all 4 move slots for coverage, but this leaves super 1-dimensional and easy to deal with once the moveset is scouted.

And btw,

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 136-162 (34.5 - 41.1%) -- 65.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So honestly I am even starting to suspect how people make it sound like the unstoppable force even when it does fire off attacks.

As a side note, some people seem to be disgusted by the fact that things like versatility and role compression are becoming mandatory qualities for high tier pokemon, while role specialists like MegaCham seem discriminated. Well, that is actually not the case. The problem is just that when a specialist pokemon make that high of the tier, especially at A+ or above which is by definition meta-defining, there is also an unfortunate side effect of centralizing the meta around its specialty, which then results a ban to uber. Specialists can make high tier, just that they also made Uber subsequently and leaves OU altogether.

Personally, I would even go as far as saying that any specialist pokemon with A+ quality is probably Uber quality as well. And the fact there is not even a suspect test (correct me if I am wrong) is the fundamental evidence that convinces me our best wallbreaker in the meta should probably stay at A.

....

You listed calcs for regular Medi, not Mega-Medi.

The correct calcs are as follows:

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 188-222 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 229-270 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery