ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread V6

[empire370]

Yea yea the troll is back well not that anybody remembers me anyways I'm ready to make another dumb nomination:
Machamp to b- or c+: yea I like this thing but lately I've been struggling to see how it stands out from other fighting types besides dynamic punch+heavy slam the AV set has competition from of course conkelldurr and the CB set while pretty good faces completion from my friend herracross so

yea and I agree with the other nominations mega beedrill is acting like a brat again so it should rise
and forretress is finally being forretress again so u can rise those bugs.

 

[palkia246]

Okay, I can see that I was wrong about Whimsicott, but I still don't think that A- is much of a place for Sableye. The mence ban not only gave it much less of an impactful role, as the role of stopping such a dangerous set up sweeper isn't as needed. Not only did it lose the pokemon that by checking, gave it so much viability, but the ubiquity of Sylveon/Krookodile cores leave it with a pokemon that can absolutely demolish it and a lot of fire type checks to these cores that Sableye can't do much against (like Entei and Arcanine) don't leave allow it to make as large of an impact than it used to be able to. Let's not forget about its terrible bulk that leaves it to rely on the constant use of recover to survive neutral stab hits.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I think Machamp is fine in B, if only because of the fact that Dynamic Punch is its simple stand-out quality. Yes, Dynamic Punch is really its only stand-out quality besides possibly Heavy Slam, but Dynamic Punch is also an extremely good quality. It's a very lethal move to have at your disposal because it's just such a stupid move. It's pretty powerful on its own, especially coming off of Machamp. Its guaranteed confusion combined with its power means literally nothing can switch into this move safely, and those who resist it and can take one risk falling to the coin-flip of confusion, and if that happens, it's either a nice and free switch-in for one of Machamp's teammates or a nice extra hit from Machamp itself. With its good power and the confusion hax, it just sort of cheeses its way through teams by damaging with good damage output and overall just being a prick to face with confusion, since the opponent that was stuck by D-Punch will now have to face the coin flip of either damaging themselves or getting the hit, which makes it easy for Machamp to roll through a team decently. Dynamic Punch is a lot like Scald in that it's not a very free switch-in and has the hax factor to it that makes games with Machamp pretty infuriating to play.

Machamp is probably good where it is because it stands out as being a pretty bulky and powerful Fighting-type who takes hits well and hits hard, but also has that hax factor that makes it a real prick and allows it to just cheese its way through a team. Dynamic Punch is just that good for Machamp to retain its place in B. It's just as viable as many of the mons in that rank anyways, such as Slurpuff, Heliolisk, etc. Conkeldurr and Heracross are obviously better mons, which is why they're higher up in the ranks. Machamp does have the small perks of also being bulkier than Hera and being a little faster than Conkeldurr, which can matter in a few situations here and there, but D-Punch is the real killer sell. Heavy Slam is also a pretty nice move in general from Machamp which means it's still not helpless against Sylveon should you end up using it. Can punish a Sylv switch pretty well.

 

[Euphonos]

I would like to make a nomination here (while I'm a staunch supporter of Delphox, I'm not nominating Delphox, just so you know). ChrystalFalchion and pokeisfun have echoed this nomination before, but I will try to be elaborate here: Moltres from C to at least C+ (or perhaps B- if such criteria is fulfilled).

Moltres is one of the monstrous figures in UU with its 125 Special Attack, but its rather decent 90/90/85 bulk is being stripped by its horrid weakness to Stealth Rock. Of course, this means a lot of support coming from either Tentacruel, Empoleon, Espeon, or Mega Absol (being the good choices for hazard control), among other things. Also, Moltres is literally the "Christine Ha" of the tier because its low-accuracy moves in Fire Blast and Hurricane put it in a high-risk, high-reward position.

The reason why I asked for this nomination is because Moltres takes advantage of the drops that implemented last May in the forms of Sylveon, Conkeldurr, and Celebi (and also Quagsire if you want to count the August one; and it happened to be quite irrelevant here as of this moment). As far as the offensive variants go, the biggest upside for Moltres here is that there is a handful of relevant Pokemon that would ever switch in to its strong attacks (Mega Ampharos and Blissey, among others); even Hairy Toenail's RMT showcases how Moltres can definitely rock the tier.

Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Air Slash

This time, I tried using the defensive variant of Moltres, and it's looking good so far. Again, with a hefty amount of support, Moltres can take care of most Fighting-types who are trying to touch Moltres only to get succumbed by a potential Flame Body burn. Yes, it can also deal with Mega Beedrill very nicely (especially when you pair this with Cobalion); Moltres can take a minimum of ~46% with this spread from Mega Beedrill's Poison Jab, and its potential burn could make Beedrill's life worse.

Of course, Moltres is within the recesses of the C-rank viability due to its near-mandatory support for it to shine, but with stellar offensive capabilities that can seriously deliver provided that one of those low-accuracy moves hit, it deserves a C+ rank, at least.

 

[bsu]

while i honestly have 0 opinion towards moltres, i do wanna add that a lot of mons aren't running rock coverage anymore due to two premier flying types leaving (zapdos and mence), as well as aerodactyl being the popular rock type that it is. or at least a lot of fighting mons aren't. i think. i feel??? (examples being cobalion and i guess mienshao????)

 

[Kink]

Definitely supporting the nom for PZ to drop. Offense is at its peak, which means were seeing a lot more of Conkeldurr, Infernape and fighting types in general, and all of its sets are lacking in a crucial area, being wallbreaking power or poor speed or in the case of its double dance set, reliance on support. Definitely not as on par with mons like Heliolisk and Dragalage as it is with Espeon or Shuckle.

Tentacruel could probably afford to rise to A, considering that hazard control is such a necessity and its the meta's best spinner without much competition. Wouldn't mind seeing it stay in A- though, since it isn't amazing at providing much offensive pressure outside of scald burns.

Kyurem is another rise that I could see happening, but the prevalence of Hydreigon, Sylveon, MAero etc. could keep it in B+.

What I think should happen before Kyurem's rise is Sableye's and Whimsicott's drops from A- to low B+. Both have no offensive presences and can't take even neutral hits to save their lives. Prankster provides them with reliable niches against setup sweepers, sure, but are those niches going to keep us from realizing that they both match up poorly against a lot of prominent threats in the meta? Sylveon tears through Sab and bypasses Whim's substitute, and Entei can OHKO and/or burn both with a banded flare blitz/sacred fire. Definitely can't compare these two to Infernape or Nidoqueen anymore. That is all.

Tenta is one of the most common glues in the tier and its typing perfectly syncs up with a plethora of options, including Conk, Hydreigon, Sylveon, Celebi, and Krook, amongst others. It's ability to be offensive or defensive with minimal loss to defensive cohesion allows it to pull through in more ways than your common spinner.

Shredder does a lot more than just splash Scald burns. By the sound of your post, you've never come across an offensive variant. There are huge differences in terms of the mons Tenta can check just by switching its gear. This ambiguity at team preview can sometimes set the pace of the entire battle in favour of the user. This attribute of minimalistic support while being able to change outcomes of games is certainly indicative of an A rank mon.

 

[Shadestep]

I have a nomination to make:

Conkeldurr from A --> A+
I think Conkeldurr should rise to A+ rank. Ever since it dropped from OU about 1,5 months ago, this thing has been such a monster. It's impact on the metagame and great matchup vs both Stall, Balance, and Offense is not something a lot of Pokemon are capable of. I don't want to make this post too long since otther post in the previous VR thread have mainly explained why Conkeldurr should rise up in viability, but both the CB set, the SF + LO lure set and most notably the BU set are so threatening. If Conkeldurr gets statused (paralyzed, preferably), it can tackle entire Stall-teams by itself. The infamous AloBliss-core falls apart to BU Conk, unless you run some wanky Chople Counter Blissey. I was surprised that this Mon wasn't A+ yet since its usage and almost 80% winrate in UU open round 4 just proves that it's a very good mon.
Don't have much more to say since I don't know if it has gotten better over the past weeks but a lot of teams I've seen in the UU open, on ladder, and in Room Tours seemed very weak to Conkeldurr since it has the ability to plow through Fighting resists quite easily.

 

[dingbat]

hi

I agree that Sableye should drop to B+ and I wouldn't mind it dropping to B either; its utility in this meta has been draining ever since the May drops happened, and its status as a staple to a lot of teams has just vanished from this meta.

I also agree that Beedrill should go up to A+ rank. It's so goddamn good at just picking shit off, regardless of if rocks are on the field, and there are just not many reliable counterplays to it right now

Whimsicott should not drop to A- though. Adaam described this well enough, and I still think it's way more useful than any of the B+ 'mons are in this meta.

Idk why umbreon is back up in B rank, knock dat shit back down to B-

I think we should keep Tangela off for now, since I've only really seen pif use it (this may or may not be a good reason, idk), and I feel that it's only really gonna be seen on rather specialized stall teams unlike Tangrowth, unless pif/others can prove otherwise

I have no opinions on A+ for Conk, but it is still literally the most annoying pokemon in this tier right now, i hate it so goddamn much

Regarding C ranks

Hitmonlee was in C- rank because of the Endure Liechi Reversal set, but i have literally seen no one use it since it was ranked, i'm ok with axing lee

I forget what meloetta does, i have literally never seen it in a battle since some guy made a specs meloetta stall team

Togetic is really just bleh... although i guess it slowpasses nasty plots/fairy-type defogs? not sure if those are sufficient niches anymore.

Other than that, I don't see too many issues about C ranks

 

[Schpoonman]

Meloetta's best set in my experience is SubCM, which rips stall apart lacking seriously bulky Steel-types. If you get Maggron or Doublade out of the way and avoid status it just beats those teams.

 

[kolona]

I agree that Tangela to be at least C-. There actually different 3 high rank players using Tangela, PIF, Rack MC and a gay used a team changed from PIF stall (I know these since I really like watching replays). These players used different sets (basically exchange between sleep powder and knock off) but all of these sets did great job in their teams. I think PIF has done enough explanation how good Tangela is in his post. I don't understand why a mon which is used by several good players, has great ability to check several popular threats, has multiple functions for teams should be unranked, while some mons which only shined in some low rank games are still ranked in C.

I agree with Moltres rise as well. People have mentioned that how it benefit from the May drop in their posts. I currently use spd defensive defog Moltres:
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpA / 232 SpD / 20 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Hurricane
It is really good. As a defogger, it can switch in and take the scald from two main water type rocker, Swampert and Empoleon. Pressure will make the rock and scald used faster than defog and roost. Here is a replay showing this ability
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-411874891
Other popular rockers (Spikers) like Celebi, Mega aggron, Bronzong, Chesnaught, Forretress, Gligar can be all easily countered.
Nidoqueen, Metagross depend on the set, but most of the time Moltres can handle them.

As a spd wall, here is some calcu:
Spec modest Sylveon can only do 35% with Hyper Voice and 43% with Psyshock.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 139-164 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Moltres: 114-134 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hydreigon can't touch it without hax:
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Moltres: 169-199 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Scarf)
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Moltres: 242-285 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (spec)
Even the taunt set can hardly win a moltres
4 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 157-186 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Even those popular electric type mons can not really touch it, for example Rotom-H, for a non-spec set, moltres can just click roost and let rotoms V-switch away
252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-H Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Moltres: 308-366 (80.4 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Spec)

Another function is the wall break. Everybody know that Will-O-Wisp makes walls uncomfortable. Give a Will-O-Wisp to a Milotic, Alomomola or P2 can make games easier, here are some replays I played with PIF (Our best best stall player) and Rack MC (The second best imo), Motres played really important role in all of them. I think it is enough to indicate its wall break ability:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-413724266
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-420737385
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-420750296
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-422360303
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-422843697
Therefore, I think Moltres deserves a B-

Besides, I am not agree with the drop of Qwilfish, I think it is still a B- mon. This is the reason for its drop:

• Qwilfish moved down from B- to C+ (Exactly the same situation as Slowking. Its niche is nowhere near as valuable as it used to be in the past)

As I remembe, 'it's niche' for the sentence above is the T-wave spike taunt set. But I still think its a good stall breaker for the set below:
Qwilfish @ Eject Button
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Poison Jab
- Scald
- Pain Split
- Spikes
Just ignore the item I used for trapping things (because people told me a niche which needs other mons cooperate can't be seen as its own value XD)
As those 3 replays shown above, Qwilfish has great advantage against Blissey stall, Tox immunity and pain split are great things toward stall.
I used mix set (Poison Jab +Scald )so that it won't be set up bag for sub Gyarados and Feraligatr and scald burns are always noteworthy.
It is also good against offensive team, can wall and hit lots of threats, but I am now tired to write about, here is another replay with PIF (He is also good as a HO player imo):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-402808124

 

[ict]

Ok.
I very much disagree with Moltres moving up. It recquires waaaaaaaaaaaay too much support to work to the point where it actually does something. This includes hazard removal and a very reliable way to deal with rockers which is hardly impossible looking at the common rockers such as Azelf, Krook, Cobalion, Empoleon etc. These mons will most likely get stealth rocks out 100% and have its own way to pressure the hazard remover, and when Moltres, how you stated it is your defogger on your team its very likely your Moltres will stay at 50% of health at most of the time because it doesn't reliably defog on any on these mons (Azelf Taunts into Explosion, Krook Stone Edges/Taunts or just do a fuckton with Knock Off on the switch at the point where its a 2hko, Coba Edges Volt Switch/Taunts) and hell how is a Moltres supposed to beat an Empoleon. You cant stall out of Hydro Pumps and the offensive Scald set will just easily defeat it and keep the rocks up, vs the SpDef set you either Toxic or Roar it and Spam Scalds when it switches in looking at how it needs to sacrifice a turn for clickin wisp and Empoleon will just keep the Stealth Rocks up vs it. While it might check things like Celebi it has to keep hazards away under any circumstances because Psychic and Hvoice easily 2hko after rocks. At this point it recquires how aforementioned too much support to check Pokémon, which are sometimes easily default checked in a slot that recquires way less support. I can see it having a niche somewhat so I'm not totally bashing it, because the life orb offensive set is actually ''okay'' 30% or 20% of the time lol. But then again it needs too much help to be effective and at the end you rely on unreliable moves which you'll regret once you miss and all the support was for nothing. It's basically a 5v6 sometimes and I rarely see it being effective. So I kinda think it's more of an obstacle for your own team rather than being a good help for yourself.

To your points:

Hydreigon can't touch it without hax:
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Moltres: 169-199 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Scarf)
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Moltres: 242-285 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (spec)
Even the taunt set can hardly win a moltres
4 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 157-186 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Even those popular electric type mons can not really touch it, for example Rotom-H, for a non-spec set, moltres can just click roost and let rotoms V-switch away
252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-H Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Moltres: 308-366 (80.4 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Spec)

I do not exactly see how Hydreigon can't touch Moltres without hax when its defeated without effort by the scarf set with rocks and without rocks it will just be forced to roost and you safely switch out, not to mention that Scarf Hydreigon def isn't as common as it used to be and is really not the best set anymore because Life Orb just provides so much, Scarf really only has a good matchup vs offense which has his ways to deal with it too. To the life orb set it easily powers through Moltres because it'll get 3hkod by Dark Pulse and Moltres can't even Roost up because Taunt is commonly paired with the Life Orb so Moltres becomes useless and has to rely on Hurricane to deal damage to Hydreigon which can Roost the damage off aswell. Or you could just go the easy route and Dark Pulse into Draco Meteor which will ko Moltres regardless lol.
Rotom-H counters Moltres totally, it can't do anythign against whereas Rotom-H grabs all the momentum/recovery it wants and can even Thunder Wave which will make it really unreliable.
Idk how the Specs Tbolt calc proves or underlines any of your points bc Moltres won't be able to Roost the damage off and it just takes two Tbolts from Rotom to defeat moltres.

I don't really have a strong opinion about Qwilfish I think it was somewhat good when Cobalion dominated the meta but however those times are over and Qwilfish is just easy Celebi bait and having Poison type that gets almost ohkod by Specs Sylv isn't remotely useful at all. Also complete set up fodder for Conk which its supposed to check and the bulk really isn't that good at all. Anyhow Taunt is still a pretty good tool and Twave can screw some offensive attacker over so whatever. I think C is a fine a place same as Moltres C is fine.

 

[Morsel]

Hi, me again.

Here are my thoughts on the nominations brought up:

Conkeldurr from A to A+ --> Strongly Agree:

After using Conkeldurr significantly since the drop, its sheer versatility and role compression is provides for a team -- whether it be balance, BO or HO -- is outstanding. The fact that it can, depending on its set, straight up beat 3/4 of the S ranked Pokemon 1v1 is amazing, not to mention how it can lure in and KO Celebi. Looking at metagame trends, people are stacking bulky steel types in order to prevent Sylveon from 6-0ing their team, and the rise of these Pokemon benefit Conkeldurr. Furthermore, its ability to literally 6-0 stall by itself with a guts+bulk up set makes it one of the best stallbreakers in the metagame at the moment, as it crushes the cookie cutter bulky water+blissey cores commonly seen on stall teams.

The fact that Conkeldurr can not only 6-0 stall, but also serve as a great check for bulky waters and Hydriegon on bulky offence (where you should be using an AV set) while still providing the team with fighting priority (which is great atm) and knock off utility, means that the opportunity cost of using Conkeldurr as your bulky water check is minimal. Finally, as a breaker, its sheer amount of coverage forces the opponent to play around your set, as conventional checks (sylveon, celebi, etc) get creamed by a coverage move; it can pick its counters. In sum, the fact that Conkeldurr excels in so many roles -- a breaker with CB, bulky water/hydreigon check with AV and a BU stallbreaker -- means that there is very little drawback to using him on any offensive team, hence why it should move up to A+.


Tentacruel from A- to A --> Agree:

With Salamence gone, the supply of viable hazard removers has dwindled. Tentacruel stands out from its competition as a spinner due to its ability to fit on most playstyles, as it has very decent offensive and defensive sets. Its versatility is shown in it's ability to otherwise beat its checks (Krookodile, Mamoswine notably) by running speed investment. Its increased usage by ~7%, and additional usage in room tours (can't say much for the official tournament scene) is evident in its increased effectiveness. I know this post could have had more explanation, but I haven't used Tentacruel much as I mainly run HO teams with no hazard control; my explanation is based off anecdotal evidence (room tours, laddering, and usage stats).

New nomination: Galvantula to B.

Galvantula is really out of place in B-, metagame trends have shifted to support this little spider. With Salamence gone, people are more inclined to spam Tentacruel, as its one of the few spinners that is not useless on offensive teams due to its high speed. In addition, the fact that there are so few means of hazard removal at the moment means that hazard stacking is better then ever. Included within this is sticky web. Moreoever, its ability to threaten literally every spinner/defogger with STAB Thunder means that Galvantula paired with slow Volt-Turn support makes it really difficult for the opponent to actually spin away the web Galvantula set (i.e. bring it in on a slow u-turn onto a Tentacruel). The LO set with volt switch is a really solid choice for hyper offensive teams, one that is more viable than ever. Of course, the fact that Galvantula only fits on HO (and I guess BO) in addition to no defensive utility prevents it from rising further, but a rise to B is warranted in my view.

 

[Nightingales]

We were talking about it in the chat and it turns out that Gatr apparently has a massive power advantage over Gyarados. I'm not saying bump it to where the flying snake is, but what are people's opinions on a small rise for Feraligatr from b+ to a-? It seems that the meta is getting more favorable to the thing and coverage it has helps so I'm wondering here.

 

[Schpoonman]

I think Gatr dropped because now its DD set (what used to be its flagship) is now SUPER outclassed because of Gyarados' better typing and speed. However, all that really should have meant is that Agiligatr and SD should be getting more usage, which while not S-rank by itself (all three together probably were) are more than enough to push it up out of B. Not sure why it ever fell there in the first place.

 

[MaroGod]

Because Gyarados is that good

 

[Highways]

to B
Definitely agree with you, Panther5001 that Galvantula is out of place in B-, but I strongly disagree with you that it should rise. Sticky Web is just a sick strategy actually, OK, Hazard Removal is being very hard, but it's just a trash lead for every kind of playstyle, it can't fit well even in HO, since it's very hard do keep the Webs up. Your argument in "With Salamence gone, people are more inclined to spam Tentacruel, as its one of the few spinners... bla bla bla" is completely invalid. If you are running Tentacruel, you must use a Pokémon that will defeat Electric-types with ease, like Mamoswine, and Galvantula is actually very weak to the common Stealth Rock, forcing you to use it as a lead, and how I said before Galvantula is kinda garbage as a lead. Its LO set (aka the only viable set) is so easy to take down since it's so frail and there are much drawbacks, since you are using a Pokémon that as a Electric-type is outclassed by stuff like Rotom-Mow and Heliolisk. Oh, Galvantula hits Celebi and Krookodile super-effectively, but you can't even touch Sylveon, and this is actually pretty bad. I really can't see it aside of things like Machamp (don't drop this), Diancie and Doublade. Tl;Dr: Webs = trash, drop it to C+ or even C.

New nom!!!

to B-
I know that it is the newest addition to the Viability Rankings and all, but man, this thing is so fucking awesome. It occupies a ton of roles in one single team. It's a hard Sylveon and Celebi check, an awesome Flying Resist, and a fearsome thing to face when paired with Water-types, since your only answer is try to wallbreak with Mamoswine or spread burns. It has Stealth Rock, the wonderful Thunder Wave and it's last slot is, most of the time, Protect to scout Krookodile, Hydreigon and Entei. I used it in a balance team, I laddered a lot with it, I played room ours with it, and Registeel solid enough to move up to B-, I can't see it aside of things like Dugtrio and Zoroark.

 

[Morsel]

to B
Galvantula is actually very weak to the common Stealth Rock, forcing you to use it as a lead, and how I said before Galvantula is kinda garbage as a lead. Its LO set (aka the only viable set) is so easy to take down since it's so frail and there are much drawbacks, since you are using a Pokémon that as a Electric-type is outclassed by stuff like Rotom-C and Helilolisk,

It's easy to take down, but its purpose is to setup webs and die, so how is that an issue? Likewise, how is it outclassed by those aforementioned mons? It has a clear niche over them as a fast electric with its access to webs, and is thus not "outclassed" in its role. Outclassed=can do its job in its entirety and more -- do Rotom-C or Helilolisk have access to webs?

to B
Oh, Galvantula hits Celebi and Krookodile super-effectively, but you can't even touch Sylveon,

So? Stating that Galvantula should drop because it can't touch Sylveon is beyond silly.

Also your point stating that Tentacruel is paired with electric resists/immunities is flawed due to Galvantula's access to energy ball and giga drain, which actually OHKOs most Mamoswine variants.

I do agree with your regi nomination though.

 

[Nightingales]

I feel like people constantly underestimate galvantulas lo set. The thing can actually hammer things down and is decently strong using Thunder, since it can use it with compound eyes.

I think it's perfect where it is for now.

/ quick shitty mobile post

 

[Hogg]

Galvantula's not the best, but it does what it's supposed to do. It gets a bad rap because low ladder spams it and uses it in the most brainless and crappy way possible (always leading Galv, always clicking Webs, never bothering to preserve it when it might be useful). It's actually pretty decent offensively when used with LO or Specs, and Webs aren't actually a bad strategy when you play them well. (Friendly PSA: Webs are usually WAY better late-game when walls have been broken down a bit and Defoggers/Spinners have been weakened. Stop mindlessly leading with Webs.) I think B- is fine for it.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Brief thoughts:

I never supported a Moltres rise lol, honesty I hate how everyone ignores the accuracy problem when supporting Moltres (such as Moltres' onsite analysis which oversells it by a ton). But C+ is fine since I'm pretty happy with liberally giving out C ranks as long as we remember C rank still means you are suboptimal in the metagame.


Registeel might be B- but let's not oversell it - not only does it miserably fail as a Slurpuff counter for a steel type but it also invites some dangerous threats like Conkeldurr and Entei and mamoswine (although Entei doesn't like Thunderwave at all).

I wouldn't use replays of Qwilfish beating my stall team as evidence of it being a great stall breaker because that didn't really happen to be fair, it wasn't Qwilfish but the combined threat of Qwilfish Dugtrio Abomasnow and Sylveon which I couldn't handle. B- rank feels too high for something that has such terrible stats but it's hard to deny the great utility of Spikes and the typing so top of C+ or bottom of B- might be appropriate. I just wish it countered more, it doesn't really have the ability to beat beat for instance Gatr or Daunt without a Scald burn which sucks as a physically defensive Water type.

 

[Pearl]

First official update n__n

As requested, some changes in the C Ranks! I'll list them below:

• Moltres moved up from C to C+
• Noivern moved up from C to C+
• Yanmega moved down from C+ to C
• Togetic moved down from C to C-
• Durant added to C-
• Tangela added to C-
• Quagsire added to C-
• Aromatisse removed from the rankings
• Pangoro removed from the rankings
• Accelgor removed from the rankings
• Hitmonlee removed from the rankings

The four removed Pokemon aren't really worth using at all in the current metagame, with Pangoro having no notable niche over Conkeldurr, Aromatisse being completely outclassed by Sylveon aside from its ability, Accelgor being inferior to Froslass in a metagame where Spikes stacking offense isn't even a dominant playstyle and Hitmonlee's only arguably viable set being nearly impossible to pull off effectively (Reckless sets are outclassed by Mienshao and other Fighting-types aside from Rapid Spin). Quagsire finally got added (!), Tangela's niche was discussed in this thread and I feel like it deserves its place in the rankings based on its effectiveness in stall teams and Durant is actually viable in a metagame without Zapdos. Here's a short paragraph written by Ice Tea about Durant:

Regarding Durant:
I do think that it actually deserves a place in C- if not C/C+ the decent speed tier which lets it outspeed stuff like Infernape/Cobalion and co together with its wide offensive movepool makes it actually really hard to play against. Offense struggles to find a rather decent switchin to it and something that outspeeds, too. Its rather decent typing also lets it check Mega Beedrill and Celebi fairly decent despite having shitty spdef. Hone Claws is a menace for fat builds because Iron Head+Crunch+Superpower is amazing coverage and strong options which hit almost everything neutral. +1 Superpower ohkos a lot of stuff neutrally and unboosted it deals a fuckton of damage with Iron Head. It somewhat decent defensive makes it hard to revenge kill because shit like aero wont come close to ohko with Edge. Only merits are really the bad spdef and Hustle tbf otherwise its quite of a reasonable pokemon which ive tried in the past. Lum HC superpower ih and crunch.

The other changes aren't as big and therefore don't need that much explaining (although I can give reasoning if requested)

Other Changes:

• Beedrill moved up from A to the bottom of A+
• Umbreon moved down from B to B- (This one was actually a mistake of mine, as it was supposed to be in B- from the start)
• Porygon-Z moved down from B to B-

And finally, the part y'all love the most: Nominations!

• Espeon moving up to B (its niche became a lot more valuable ever since Alakazam got banned, and even though it has a harder time getting past Steel-types than Azelf, Magic Bounce definitely makes up for that)
• Kyurem moving up to A-
• Conkeldurr moving up to A+
• Forretress moving up to B+ (check Manipulative's post for insight)
• Tentacruel moving up to A (some support for this one in this thread, even though I personally disagree with it)
• Sableye moving down to B+
• Chandelure moving down to B
• Galvantula moving up to B (Read the most recent posts besides mine. I wouldn't mind making this change at all, personally)
• Roserade moving down to B (GrilledClawitzer has a post on this one. I disagree with it because even though Celebi exists, there are some really valuable things that it can't do over Roserade, including setting up Spikes, absorbing Toxic Spikes and putting things to sleep, but you guys decide)

Reasoning for moving Chandelure down by dodmen:

I agree that Chandelure can be a menace. dropping it to B isn't saying that it can't be a threat to unprepared defensive teams. The issue I have is how poorly it matches up against the current metagame. It's dumpstered by the two best/most splashable Pokemon in the tier right now and doesn't match up well against several other top mons in Krook, Mega Swampert, and Gyara. Not to mention that pursuit Aero and CB Krook are commonly used on every playstyle from bulky offense to hard stall (in Aero's case), specifically to deal with Chandelure and other such threats.

Again, being in B rank doesn't mean it can't be a threat. Pokemon like Shaymin and Venomoth in B can also ravage unprepared teams. It just means that these Pokemon overall have more flaws, and are a bit more difficult to build with and play with than "similar" pokemon in B+, and I think that's true in this case.

Using the final part of my post to disagree with some of the nominations that were made this week, specifically moving Jellicent down because it "has to choose between Taunt and Will-O-Wisp against Stealth Rock setters in this metagame, but definitely didn't have to do that when Zapdos existed", as it's still a really good Pokemon at punishing unprepared slow teams and is fine in B, moving Qwilfish back to B- "because it's a good stallbreaker thanks to that one set that doesn't even run Taunt" and dropping Mega Sharpedo to A- (in theory this one could happen, but me and some other people still feel like Sharpedo being the face of HO is enough to keep it afloat in the upper parts of the viability rankings).

Last but not least, we'll be getting a new banner soon, so stay tuned for that! Happy posting and all that stuff :D

 

[empire370]

thoughts on nominations:
Espeon moving up (agreed): I don'tlike this thing but moving it up is pretty reasonable since its niche is a great aspect
Kyreum moving up (agreed): forgot what made it move down so put it back up
Conkelldurr moving up (agreed): I love conk hard to switch into amazing typing and solid bulk currently the best fighting type imo
Forretress moving up (agreed): the post was convicing
Tentacruel moving up (on the fence): just want a little more convicing
sableye moving down (agreed): its not as great as it was in december imo
Chandelure moving down(agreed): this is sad but the right thing to do imo
galvantula moving up: don't use offensive teams that much so i reallly dont care
Roseade moving down (disagreed): I don't see the point of lowering roseade tbh

 

[Hilomilo]

Espeon from B- to B: On the fence Espy's a bit of a mixed bag. On one hand, you have good speed and spa and immediate hazard control, but on the other you have awful physical bulk and typing, poor matchups against common stuff in the meta, and a plethora of physically offensive rockers with knock off, though since I barely use the thing, I can't judge how much its pros make up for its cons.
Kyurem from B+ to A-: Agree This thing has so much offensive versatility alone between its band and scarf sets, as they allow it to take on top tier threats like Krookodile and Hydreigon while doing a hefty chunk of damage to Sylveon if it tries switching in (specs Ice Beam does a minimum of 53.4%). Easily UU's most underrated choice user atm.
Conkeldurr from A to A+: On the fence I don't really use Conk, but it isn't hard to acknowledge how scary it is when you're using bulky offense or stall. Stall isn't doing so well, so that and that fact that idk a ton about the thing is keeping me from directly agreeing.
Forretress from B to B+: Disagree It's good at what it does, which is spinning and setting up hazards, but what it can't do is stop set up sweepers unless it has toxic, which still doesn't stop things like crocune or substitute/lum gyarados. And while its role compression isn't something that shouldn't go unnoticed, the same should be said for its poor matchups against some of the meta's commonly seen hazard setters in flamethrower Azelf and earth plate/LO Krookodile and the plethora of fire type attacks in the meta.
Tentacruel from A- to A: Agree This NEEDS to happen, and probably has for a long time now. When I think spinners, I think Tentacruel, and it isn't hard to comprehend the effectiveness of a mon that can spin, set up hazards, apply offensive pressure AND check some of the meta's most prevalent mons. Move up asap.
Sableye from A- to B+: Agree In all honesty, Sab could probably afford to drop even further from A- than to B+ eventually. Its niche is losing its effectiveness in the meta dramatically and the loss of Mence and the growing popularity of Sylveon, Celebi and Conkeldurr isn't helping its case.
Chandelure from B+ to B: On the fence Dodmen pretty much nailed his explanation as to why it could drop, but I don't think we should minimize its ability to tear through slower teams and fit itself onto offensive and balanced teams with fair ease. It's also capable of calling the switch ins to mons like Swampert and Krook and scoring a KO with energy ball. Could really go both ways in all honesty.
Galvantula from B- to B: Disagree B- is the perfect place for Galvantula atm. It's just a little too situational in my eyes in that it either has to risk the ohko with life orb or doesn't have a ton of firepower with a focus sash. And while the effectiveness of webs can't be stressed enough, they're really hard to keep up, which isn't great considering the thing's poor bulk. Pros don't outweigh cons enough to totally justify a rise to B, but it sure is one of the better B- mons.
Roserade from B+ to B: Disagree Sure, Celebi's given it a little trouble since its drop, but what Roserade can do that Celebi can't is set up two different and potentially game-changing entry hazards, clear the field of toxic spikes, and act as one of the tier's faster sleep inducers. In my opinion, how good this thing is in terms of role compression is just too much to keep it lower than B+.

 

[Accel]

Accelgor removed from the rankings

Pearl fam why'd you have to do me like that? :(

 

[Hogg]

• Espeon moving up to B AGREE - I've been messing around with Espeon a lot lately and it's a pain to build around, but definitely puts in a lot of work when you make the effort. It seems right at home with things like Machamp and Jellicent.
  
  
• Kyurem moving up to A- AGREE - I was on the fence about this one, especially because it suffers so much competition from Hydreigon, but Kyurem matches up well versus many of the top threats of the tier. In particular, its Specs set does an excellent job of pressuring the tier's most common Special wall in Sylveon and threatens the super-common Sylveon/Celebi/Krookodile core that gets spammed everywhere. It also doesn't take a lot of bulk to always survive a +2 Dazzling Gleam from Celebi, making this a much stronger Celebi check than (non-Scarf) Hydreigon.
  
  
• Conkeldurr moving up to A+ DISAGREE (for now) - Listen, I have been one of the biggest Conk proponents from the get-go and I think it's amazing, and might eventually be worth a rise as far as A+. But we literally just jumped this thing up like three ranks. I'd rather see the dust settle a bit and find out if the meta will adjust around Bulk Up Conkeldurr before we immediately give this another bump.
  
  
• Forretress moving up to B+ AGREE - Oh god I always hate using Forry but it fits so well on so many teams, it's hard to avoid.
  
  
• Tentacruel moving up to A DISAGREE - See above notes about Conk, except that I also really don't think Tentacruel fits in A. We've been seeing huge bumps in Tentacruel usage as a necessity since hazard removal has been so scarce this tier, and the popularity of offensive Tentacruel was definitely worth seeing a rise all the way to the top of A-, but even if its usage is really high right now, I don't think it is actually at the same level of things like Cresselia, Cobalion and Mega-Sceptile.
  
  
• Sableye moving down to B+ AGREE - This thing is so overrated. It's really annoying, but it can't switch into any moderately strong neutral attack without getting caught into an endless Recover loop. It can't switch into most of the things it's supposed to check, as a spinblocker it suffers heavily from the popularity of offensive Tentacruel, and in general the meta is really unfriendly to it with Celebi, Hydreigon, Guts Conkeldurr and Sylveon running around on almost every team. It still has a niche, primarily on full stall or hazard-stack offense, but beyond that it's really mediocre.
  
  
• Chandelure moving down to B AGREE - In addition to dodmen's points, it lost a really good teammate in Salamence. It's a cool 'mon, just really hard to build around right now without it being a dead slot.
  
  
• Galvantula moving up to B ON THE FENCE - I think B- is probably fine, though I don't think B is crazy. I do think that people mostly hate on Galvantula more than is deserved because they associate it with bad low ladder players, but I also don't think it's actually that relevant in the meta. Basically this hovers right around the border of B and B- in my eyes, and I don't much care which it lands in.
  
  
• Roserade moving down to B DISAGREE - Spikes are clutch in this meta and this is the best non-suicide offensiver Spiker in the meta. Plus it's just generally decent offensively, since it hits way harder than Celebi right off the bat and has a decent secondary STAB that prevents stuff like Sylveon/Florges from switching in. Celebi definitely outclasses it as an offensive grass type, but Rose's other niches are all actually pretty on point in this meta.