CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 8 - Moveset Discussion

[Drapionswing]

I wasn't arguing against Fighting-type moves. I was arguing against Fire-type coverage that is unnecessary on CAP22. My point is that CAP22 already threatens those Steel-types as it is with those moves, so Flame Burst is unneeded.

I agree with snake here. Flame burst is just 10 bp stronger than hp fire so to run that on a 3 attacks set would be rather irrelevant. Another reason I'm strongly against flame burst is it allows us to run ground and fire coverage at the same time which strongly messes up the Threat list.

As for Wish-shot, I find that we'd want to have minimal 184 evs into speed with a speed boosting nature as it allows us to outspeed base 110's meaning metagross's only option to kill us safely is bp. We don't exactly have the best typing for wish shot as we lack relevant resists to pull it of safely. By investing in relatively high speed it allows us to pressure something, wish and then parting shot on more passive answers to our mon and then ps out rather than being slower than certain mons and being forced to hard switch out making the blow relatively hard and the wish less convenient due to our "less favorable" HP.

Grass coverage doesn't seem to help with a lot of stuff on first glance but seems nice for really pressuring more bulky teams, especially those of which that rely on rotom-w for gaining momentum and slowbro or azu as their fighting checks allowing us to have a better matchup vs bulky offence and execute parting shot much more efficiently. Poison coverage is interesting and I don't really have much to say about it other than it'll give us a great matchup vs breeds of stall which carry clef or pyroak.

I think yawn would really excel on a spikes set as it allows you to gain momentum or get up spikes freely on a sleeping pokemon. I'm definitely in favour of this as it plays around with the idea of forcing switches and rewarding you for carrying parting shot. As well as this this provides you with great core potential with the likes of syclant for example as threats like mollux can potentially be put to sleep and allow mons like syclant a turn to set up and completely remove said threat.

 

[Project_Mars]

Name: Parting Slumber Status
Move 1: Yawn/Thunder Wave
Move 2: Parting Shot
Move 3: Moonblast
Move 4: Aura Sphere
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Piggybacking off of this, giving PS'mon a way to spread a status effect with Thunder Wave being a pretty good move to consider. The Speed drop does help Parting Shot goes off before most non-priority users, which could have a negative impact on some of our checks/counters list, namely pokemon that rely more on speed to check PS'Mon. Pokemon that can generally take a few hits to KO and can OHKO back shouldn't care as much since banking on Parahax to stay safe isn't the best of options when you can nab momentum and switch out. So a lot of bulkier threats (and most passive pokemon) do not care as much about getting Paralysis in the matchup vs PS'mon. Yawn is a great idea and I think the choice it forces upon the opponent makes it work better than Hypnosis could for PS'mon. In general: I believe that status effects are a valid form of making a Pokemon want to switch out and would like some discussion on the matter.

Wish-shot works really well for team support, since you can switch it out into a damaged partner and cushion the attack they are about to take before they get healed. I don't think anyone should expect PS'mon to generally use Wish to primarily heal itself since it isn't built to do that too well. Grass Coverage does good against bulky waters, which is very nice and worth considering because of it. I am okay either way on adding Poison or Steel coverage to deal with Fairies. Poison would have fairly relevant coverage on several grass-types while Steel would be mostly focused on Fairies alone since Ice and Rock are covered by Fighting. Forgoing that would mean a harder matchup against fairies, which may or may not be advisable.

 

[Natu Worry]

Piggybacking off of this, giving PS'mon a way to spread a status effect with Thunder Wave being a pretty good move to consider.

Twave is an interesting option but when you look at the mons that actually switch into CAP22 like Kitsunoh, Plasmanta, MegaScizor, MegaVenusaur, Amoonguss, Talonflame, Mollux and AVTorn-T you come to realize that in reality the only 2 that are really crippled by Twave are AVTorn and Mollux (if scarf), the rest of them either have priority, recovery or are immune. That's why I suggested Yawn to begin with, because it almost universally I swear if people run Vital Spirit Plasmanta... forces a switch or a sleep effectively utilizing parting shot to gain momentum.

On a side note am I the only one that finds the idea of a fighting pillow threatening to put you to sleep adorable?

 

[snake]

Piggybacking off of this, giving PS'mon a way to spread a status effect with Thunder Wave being a pretty good move to consider. The Speed drop does help Parting Shot goes off before most non-priority users, which could have a negative impact on some of our checks/counters list, namely pokemon that rely more on speed to check PS'Mon. Pokemon that can generally take a few hits to KO and can OHKO back shouldn't care as much since banking on Parahax to stay safe isn't the best of options when you can nab momentum and switch out. So a lot of bulkier threats (and most passive pokemon) do not care as much about getting Paralysis in the matchup vs PS'mon. Yawn is a great idea and I think the choice it forces upon the opponent makes it work better than Hypnosis could for PS'mon. In general: I believe that status effects are a valid form of making a Pokemon want to switch out and would like some discussion on the matter.

I'm against Thunder Wave for multiple reasons. First off, while Yawn status goes away after the affected Pokemon switches out and while Sleep can end after a few turns, Thunder Wave is a permanent status. Yawn causes an instant 50/50 that ends either as a forced switch or an opponent left with a sleeping Pokemon. Thunder Wave just cripples every Pokemon it touches. Even if the paralyzed Pokemon is slow, other walls or slowmons that it would typically outspeed now outspeed it. In addition, Thunder Wave doesn't create the same sort of 50/50. Thunder Wave just straight up cripples the opposing Pokemon, which doesn't synergize with Parting Shot in the same vein as Yawm. Finally, Thunder Wave ruins many the chances of many Pokemon that should be able to outspeed CAP22, such as Tornadus-T, Scarf Mollux, Scarf Volkraken, etc, to actually check CAP22.

tl;dr, Thunder Wave is a permanent status that does something completely different from Yawn, and what it does differently from Yawn does not complement Parting Shot in a positive way, especially (not the only reason) concerning our threatlist. Yawn, however, does create an interesting 50/50 that works well with Parting Shot.

 

[Deck Knight]

Final update on Wish set:

Name: Wishful Thinking
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Focus Blast / HP Ground
Move 3: Wish
Move 4: Parting Shot
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 232 HP /92 SpA / 184 Spe
Nature: Timid

After running a few calculations I noticed CAP doesn't have enough offensive presence with this spread to 2HKO Mega Crucibelle, so the 110 Spe benchmark is the one to beat, allowing CAP to check Latios/Latias and force weakened Mega Metagross or Mega Scizor into using Bullet Punch. Alternatively the set can run 252 Spe and 24 SpA to outrun Cawmodore, but it suffers siginificant power loss.

Consensus appears to be Thunder Wave does too much to interfere with checks and counters, however Yawn appears to have support.

Before adding the set to Approved Sets, I'd like people to discuss direct sleep moves like Hypnosis or Sleep Powder (or even Spore I guess, remember Art has nothing to do with competitive moves.)

Grass and Poison coverage seem to have tepid support and limited opposition, so on this basis I am adding the 3-Attack Specs/Life Orb set to Accepted.

This leaves the Mixed set with Close Combat / Knock Off up for discussion, as well as direct sleep moves on the status set.

Ground and Fire coverage have received strong and consistent opposition, and will therefore be prohibited. I believe Psychic coverage would also fall under this as it directly threatens many of our counters. As cool as Yawn + Dream Eater sounds, it's a distraction from Parting Shot by eating up two moveslots.

The final coverage move I would like discussed is Flash Cannon.

After considering multiple other coverage options (ex: Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, Surf), each of these gives a better matchup against a large chunk of counters (Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse for example is more powerful than Flame Burst vs Mega Metagross and Kitsunoh, Surf countermands Fire checks like Talonflame.) Flash Cannon is thus the only coverage that maintains our threatlist, threatens opponents like Clefable and Gardevoir, and is not otherwise problematic.

 

[snake]

Final update on Wish set:



After running a few calculations I noticed CAP doesn't have enough offensive presence with this spread to 2HKO Mega Crucibelle, so the 110 Spe benchmark is the one to beat, allowing CAP to check Latios/Latias and force weakened Mega Metagross or Mega Scizor into using Bullet Punch. Alternatively the set can run 252 Spe and 24 SpA to outrun Cawmodore, but it suffers siginificant power loss.

Consensus appears to be Thunder Wave does too much to interfere with checks and counters, however Yawn appears to have support.
Before adding the set to Approved Sets, I'd like people to discuss direct sleep moves like Hypnosis or Sleep Powder (or even Spore I guess, remember Art has nothing to do with competitive moves.)
Grass and Poison coverage seem to have tepid support and limited opposition, so on this basis I am adding the 3-Attack Specs/Life Orb set to Accepted.
This leaves the Mixed set with Close Combat / Knock Off up for discussion, as well as direct sleep moves on the status set.

Ground and Fire coverage have received strong and consistent opposition, and will therefore be prohibited. I believe Psychic coverage would also fall under this as it directly threatens many of our counters. As cool as Yawn + Dream Eater sounds, it's a distraction from Parting Shot by eating up two moveslots.

The final coverage move I would like discussed is Flash Cannon.

After considering multiple other coverage options (ex: Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, Surf), each of these gives a better matchup against a large chunk of counters (Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse for example is more powerful than Flame Burst vs Mega Metagross and Kitsunoh, Surf countermands Fire checks like Talonflame.) Flash Cannon is thus the only coverage that maintains our threatlist, threatens opponents like Clefable and Gardevoir, and is not otherwise problematic.

The mixed set is really interesting, but I'm wondering about Knock Off. Since there are a number of Choice Scarf Pokemon that can check CAP22, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to arm it with a move that can remove the Choice Scarf. Otherwise, I wouldn't mind it.


Direct sleep moves are a little bit like Thunder Wave. They don't create the 50/50 that Yawn makes. Sleep can force a switch, but it isn't in the same vein as Yawn. Ultimately I believe Yawn would be the better option to go than any of the direct sleep-inducing moves.


Flash Cannon doesn't really check Clefable unless you equip Choice Specs:

252 SpA Life Orb Clefable Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 190-226 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Clefable Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Flash Cannon is cool, but I think Sludge Wave would be a better option. Regardless, Flash Cannon doesn't mess with our threatlist horridly, so I don't see a reason why not to include it in the movepool.

 

[david0895]

Before adding the set to Approved Sets, I'd like people to discuss direct sleep moves like Hypnosis or Sleep Powder (or even Spore I guess, remember Art has nothing to do with competitive moves.)

Sleep move probably is too much for a fast pokémon that can reduce both attack stats.
Also there's a chance to run a set without Parting Shot... (especially if the move is Spore)

This leaves the Mixed set with Close Combat / Knock Off up for discussion

Close Combat does heavy damage to some specially defensive Steel types more easily than Focus Blast thanks to its higher precision:

204 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 330-390 (85.4 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 343-406 (88.8 - 105.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
204 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 173-204 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 173-204 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Knock Off could remove important items like Leftovers, Choice Scarf or Assault Vest, discouraging some switch-in (not sure if that's a good point...) and cripple walls like Landorus-T or Chansey, always removing their items.

But there's a problem, can OHKO Gengar:

204 Atk Life Orb Lucario Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 281-333 (108.4 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The final coverage move I would like discussed is Flash Cannon.

As a weaker move than Sludge Wave, there's no utility against Fairy types, even against Ice and other Rock types (that are only Weavile, Kyurem-Black and Tyranitar), thanks to their secondary type (Dark or Dragon) that takes more damage from the STAB moves.

But there's a good point on this move, DESTROY Mega Diancie (even in its base form), that is one of the pokémon that can enter on Parting Shot without being on its checklist

52 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie: 250-296 (103.7 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
52 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 328-390 (136 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Drapionswing]

I'm much more neutral on the idea of knock off. While it does mess with our threatlist it struggles for a moveslot as this mon needs all the moveslots it can get.

I think direct sleep moves definitely don't reward parting shot as well as yawn does, therefore I'm opposed to it. Yawn promotes the usage of parting shot whereas sleep powder/spore kind of just put stuff to sleep. As well as that it messes with our threatlist as it's a guaranteed sleep outside of missing so they'll be put to sleep instantly upon a potential switch in.

Flash cannon is cool, don't see anything wrong with it.

Moonlight would be nice! It allows us a nicer matchup to heal more vs stall and slower teams promoting life orb sets and us more longevit to support the team with momentum. Not much I can think of to say against it to be honest.

 

[Mova]

I don't see anything particularly wrong with Flash Cannon, since its coverage is relatively redundant with Sludge Wave and Fighting STAB. It doesn't hit anything we want CAP 22 to be threatened by; Sludge Wave also has higher power than the special Steel-type attack.

Also, Yawn works well with Parting Shot when the CAP wants to force switches, while Sleep Powder and Spore just put opponents to sleep. These two immediate sleep-inducing moves would cripple any threats that should check or counter our pillow fighter 'mon.

Moonlight allows our CAPmon to sustain itself after taking damage by switching in and out. The CAP resists Stealth Rock, but Moonlight's measly 5 (8) PP prevents the snarky pixie from using the recovery move excessively, encouraging it to use this move sparingly.

 

[Alfalfa]

I don't see anything particularly wrong with Flash Cannon, since its coverage is relatively redundant with Sludge Wave and Fighting STAB. It doesn't hit anything we want CAP 22 to be threatened by; Sludge Wave also has higher power than the special Steel-type attack.

Also, Yawn works well with Parting Shot when the CAP wants to force switches, while Sleep Powder and Spore just put opponents to sleep. These two immediate sleep-inducing moves would cripple any threats that should check or counter our pillow fighter 'mon.

Moonlight allows our CAPmon to sustain itself after taking damage by switching in and out. The CAP resists Stealth Rock, but Moonlight's measly 5 (8) PP prevents the snarky pixie from using the recovery move excessively, encouraging it to use this move sparingly.

In a matchup against offense or balance, an 8 PP recovery is usually enough to last an entire game, if you play your cards correctly. My biggest issue is what is stopping CAP from running Moonlight in place of Parting Shot; Moonlight is a genuinely reliable recovery move, given that Tyranitar is not that common in the CAP metagame, and our CAP could easily switch from pivot to wallbreaker with recovery with access to one of the most lethal typings in the metagame in Fairy.

On a side note, I honestly do not see the appeal with Wish; most people do not understand the passivity associated with Wish. You can talk about a unique combination of Wish + Parting Shot, but when is our CAP going to be able to utilize Wish on more offensive playstyles that it naturally fits in? Offense does not want a Wish passer because they kill momentum too easily, and if balance wanted a pivoting Wish passer they would just use Wish + U-turn Jirachi, which has better bulk, a higher HP stat for larger Wishes, and can switch into a vast array of Pokemon with its Steel / Psychic typing. CAP 22 cannot do that and still remain offensive. Its bulk is average at best, and most of the Pokemon CAP 22 would want to switch in as as a Wish passer hit it hard enough that it is going to lose a fairly large amount of health before it manages to get a Wish off. Wish + Parting Shot looks good on paper, but that is all it is. If you are trying to fit a Wish passer onto offense you will soon just wish you had 3 Attacks + Parting Shot due to how much you would have to slow down the pace of the game just to make Wish + Parting Shot remotely work. Offense completely dislikes that concept and would rather rely on something more consistent, like Healing Wish or use of 3 Attacks + reliable recovery (as in Recover or Slack Off, and not Wish). Balance might be able to pull off something like Wish + Parting Shot, but CAP 22 lacks the bulk and the HP stat to be fairly consistent with it, and 84 / 86 / 88 bulk is NOT bulky at all, especially if CAP 22 is going to be running speed and special attack investment, which has been mentioned throughout this thread. Wish + Parting Shot is trying to do too much, and there is a fairly high chance that after trying to make it work we will just wish we used a more offensive set for CAP 22, even on a balanced team.

 

[Tmi489]

I'm in support in flash cannon, even though it demolishes Mega Diancie. Maybe we'd need a weaker steel type move?
I prefer Wish over Moonlight due to how it supports PS, but I see no problems with either.

 

[snake]

In a matchup against offense or balance, an 8 PP recovery is usually enough to last an entire game, if you play your cards correctly. My biggest issue is what is stopping CAP from running Moonlight in place of Parting Shot; Moonlight is a genuinely reliable recovery move, given that Tyranitar is not that common in the CAP metagame, and our CAP could easily switch from pivot to wallbreaker with recovery with access to one of the most lethal typings in the metagame in Fairy.

On a side note, I honestly do not see the appeal with Wish; most people do not understand the passivity associated with Wish. You can talk about a unique combination of Wish + Parting Shot, but when is our CAP going to be able to utilize Wish on more offensive playstyles that it naturally fits in? Offense does not want a Wish passer because they kill momentum too easily, and if balance wanted a pivoting Wish passer they would just use Wish + U-turn Jirachi, which has better bulk, a higher HP stat for larger Wishes, and can switch into a vast array of Pokemon with its Steel / Psychic typing. CAP 22 cannot do that and still remain offensive. Its bulk is average at best, and most of the Pokemon CAP 22 would want to switch in as as a Wish passer hit it hard enough that it is going to lose a fairly large amount of health before it manages to get a Wish off. Wish + Parting Shot looks good on paper, but that is all it is. If you are trying to fit a Wish passer onto offense you will soon just wish you had 3 Attacks + Parting Shot due to how much you would have to slow down the pace of the game just to make Wish + Parting Shot remotely work. Offense completely dislikes that concept and would rather rely on something more consistent, like Healing Wish or use of 3 Attacks + reliable recovery (as in Recover or Slack Off, and not Wish). Balance might be able to pull off something like Wish + Parting Shot, but CAP 22 lacks the bulk and the HP stat to be fairly consistent with it, and 84 / 86 / 88 bulk is NOT bulky at all, especially if CAP 22 is going to be running speed and special attack investment, which has been mentioned throughout this thread. Wish + Parting Shot is trying to do too much, and there is a fairly high chance that after trying to make it work we will just wish we used a more offensive set for CAP 22, even on a balanced team.

I feel like Wish + Parting Shot will be a very niche strategy (perhaps completely useless, but perhaps not), but since Wish + Parting Shot is a concept we can explore while building CAP22, I think we should include Wish in our movepool. I don't see any problems with including it, even if it is hyped up.

While Tyranitar isn't common in the CAP Metagame, its Band set has seen some appeal in recent weeks. Nevertheless, it still isn't that common. Rain is an especially viable playstyle in CAP that has seen some use in the recent weeks, but it still isn't that common. Honestly, my stance on Moonlight is neutral, since I see the benefit of having a wallbreaking set to give CAP22 a little bit of unpredictability, but at the same time it distracts us from our concept. I'll have a position on this move soon, but at the moment, I neither support nor oppose it.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

I'm in support in flash cannon, even though it demolishes Mega Diancie. Maybe we'd need a weaker steel type move?

Even HP Steel is a reliable OHKO against most common Mega Diancie sets, so this is a moot point. With that, I see no plausible reason to disallow Flash Cannon from the movepool.

252 SpA CAP 22 Hidden Power Steel vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 248-296 (102.9 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I think direct sleep moves are a bridge too far for CAP 22. Yawn synergizes well with Parting Shot by forcing switches that CAP 22 can then pivot out of to press the advantage it gains. Conversely, while any form of status has the potential to mess with the threat list for any given CAP, what really makes direct sleep moves a problem is that they do so on top of having the potential to overshadow Parting Shot. While Parting Shot clearly has underappreciated utility, Sleep is arguably the most powerful status ailment in the game, as it can be more reliably inflicted than freezing and can cripple a wider variety of Pokémon than poison, burns, and/or paralysis. There's a reason why the Sleep Clause exists and why Spore is such a coveted move for the few Pokémon fortunate enough to have it. Furthermore, unlike direct sleep moves, Yawn has counterplay beyond having an immunity or a cleric, which is an archetype that intrinsically only works with certain team compositions.

As for Knock Off, I'm somewhat wary of allowing a move that is notorious for being one of the easiest moves to spam in the game. The lack of STAB and middling base Attack will mean that anything that isn't weak to Dark will probably take little damage from the move, but item removal is valuable utility. I'm not necessarily against it, but I think movepool submissions should be careful in what they allow in conjunction with Knock Off.

 

[Tmi489]

Even HP Steel is a reliable OHKO against most common Mega Diancie sets, so this is a moot point. With that, I see no plausible reason to disallow Flash Cannon from the movepool.

252 SpA CAP 22 Hidden Power Steel vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 248-296 (102.9 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
.

But without HP Steel, it opens up fire/ground coverage, even though it's not as powerful as if it's fire/ground together. Still point is moot.

 

[Natu Worry]

I'm personally in favor of Knock Off and Moonlight.
Knock is a great utility option that can help soften up the apposing team by knocking off apposing mon's leftovers,assault vests and eviolites without inflicting significant damage due to a mediocre attack stat, in the same vein Clefable and Alakazam sometimes runs Knock.
As for Moonlight, I think recovery serves as a cool (but limited due to low pp) option for dealing with bulkier teams (balance and stall) that rely on passive damage to wear down CAP22. Overall both seem like solid options that add some well needed versatility to the mix.

 

[Wenderz]

CAP 22 isn't a reliable wisher because of his bulk, this is true. But he can force a switch (against something he can kill easily, like Tomohawk, even if it's dangerous), and then use Parting Shot if the opposing Mon is slower (non Scarf Mollux, Plasmanta, Mega-Venusaur...). I totally support this choice. I think this is both unique and usable in some situation.


Knock Off finds his utility against Kitsunoh and Gengar, and as said before, it helps against Choice Scarf, Assault Vest, Leftovers and Eviolite user's. Even if the Choice Scarfers are on our threatlist, I think we can give it to our CAP.

Moonlight can be a reliable Move of recovery. Hippowdon, Tyranitar and Politoed exist, but despite this Pyroak is still one of the best Wall in the tier even if his best way to gain HP is Synthesis, so CAP 22 can use it effectively too. I don't think this will be use instead of Parting Shot, or CAP 22 will just be an Sweeper with a move of recovery and won't be able to offer to others Sweeper a Set Up bait with Parting Shot (for example), which is his primary function what makes it useful.

 

[Drapionswing]

I've slowly become more against knock off, due to the threat of messing up up our threatlist ridding us of some checks like scarfers or gengar.

 

[Natu Worry]

I've slowly become more against knock off, due to the threat of messing up up our threatlist ridding us of some checks like scarfers or gengar.

While knock will potentially cripple CAP22's checks/counters it ultimately doesn't allow it to beat them, just weaken them for its teammates which is fine by me. For example, even if you knock a scarf or leftovers off Mollux or plasmanta both still 1v1 CAP22 (unless HP ground, but in that case it won't run knock to begin with). The only real exception to this is Kitsunoh but ultimately I believe that CAP22 will always be able to take on at least a few of its would be checks utilizing a coverage move (like HP fire/ground).

Also I'll just throw this out there: 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 117-138 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[snake]

I've thought more about Knock Off, and I think it would do more harm than good regarding the state of the metagame. As many people have said, it removes Choice Scarf and Assault Vest from certain opponents. Scarf Volkraken, Scarf Mollux, Scarf Kitsunoh, and Scarf Jirachi lose their Choice Scarves, which prevents them from checking CAP22 since CAP22 can then outspeed and use Parting Shot on them and escape, weakening their hits. Basically, very good switch-ins to CAP22 have a harder time switching in in fear of losing the item that allows them to check CAP22.

Another case is Assault Vest Tornadus-T. Without its Assault Vest, CAP22 can 2HKO it with Life Orb Moonblast. While Tornadus-T outspeeds CAP22 and while we assume that Hurricane hits and shouldn't bank on it missing, having CAP22 able to 2HKO a very good check to it is unfavorable in my opinion.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP22 Moonblast vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 136-161 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb CAP22 Moonblast vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-T: 203-239 (62.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In addition, this puts Tornadus-T in a position where it can take more than 66% of its health from Moonblast. Consider this scenario (assumes no SR):

AV Tornadus-T switches into Knock Off from CAP22, CAP22 switches out, and Tornadus-T switches out; it doesn't matter when it is. The point is that this scenario is set up with CAP22 hitting Tornadus-T with Knock Off early in the match. (Note that I do realize that Tornadus-T can lose its AV in other ways, but Knock Off allows CAP22 to potentially break past Tornadus-T by itself.)

AV-less Tornadus-T switches into CAP22, gets hit with Moonblast, takes 66% (note that this is a 10/16 chance)
CAP22 switches out of Tornadus-T to avoid getting hit by Hurricane.

Sometime later in the match, if Tornadus-T hasn't gotten a chance to switch in again:

AV-less Tornadus-T switches into CAP22 again, gets hit with Moonblast again, takes 66% again, Tornadus-T faints


I know the above had many assumptions, but I hope I highlighted that Knock Off potentially allows CAP22 to work past Tornadus-T much more easily than without it. In addition, don't forget about those Choice Scarfers that have a hard time with Knock Off CAP22.

While Knock Off might remove Chansey's Eviolite, if CAP22 is getting Close Combat, few players would take the risk to switch in CAP22 with the threat of Knock Off AND Close Combat. It's very similar to how no Chansey should switch into Tornadus-T


tl;dr Knock Off lets good checks to CAP22 fail to do their job, allows CAP22 to cheese its way past Tornadus-T under albeit circumstantial but possible scenarios, and doesn't really help get rid of Chansey's Eviolite.

 

[Deck Knight]

Won't be able to post more in-depth until later but to be blunt KOing or 2HKOing Gengar is totally irrelevant. Every set proposed thus far is faster than it, its paper defenses make it a poor check anyway, Parting Shot itself shreds Gengar's potential , and btw. Nobody uses Scarf Gengar and nobody is going to start because Scarf Sludge Wave is an invitation to a Cawmodore sweep.

 

[david0895]

Ok, Gengar doesn't count, but there's a problem with other counters, like scarf users: Mollux and Plasmanta can enter on its every move (except HP Ground), but with Knock Off they will have more pressure, transforming them from counters into checks, since they need to save the Scarf.

Also, I'm not sure if Tornadus-T is allowed as example, because it was not initially supposed to be a check/counter...

 

[Drapionswing]

Gengar can switchin to Cap 22 due to it's typing, knock off stops that potential to switch in threatening with a near ohko.

 

[Deck Knight]

OK, time for the post I promised.

At the outset I myself was wary of Knock Off because of it's interactions with Scarved checks. The damage concerns I think are minimal because many checks simply don't care about the damage (Mega-Meta, Mega-Venu, Mega-Crucibelle, Clefable to an extent). Some checks do, though. Kitsunoh is 2HKO'd, Scarf Jirachi and Volkraken (about half the time, every time with Spikes down) are KO'd by Knock Off followed by Close Combat, while SpD Jirachi can survive, but not with a lot of health (Iron Head doesn't KO after LO damage either). Jirachi and Kitsunoh face this issue with Knock Off whenever it is run with a neutral nature regardless of investment, however if CAP does not invest Attack then Volkraken shrugs off Knock Off followed by Close Combat and easily OHKOs with Analytic Fire Blast or Flash Cannon.

That said, if you aren't running the Mixed set Pokemon like Skarmory can soak up an uninvested Knock Off easily and Tornadus threatens a OHKO with Hurricane regardless. Long story short Knock Off does interfere with the threats list, but it only does so with both prediction and investment. Pokemon with lost items are not any more significantly crippled than losing those items generally does to them, and in the case of Jirachi and Kitsunoh they can still Trick away CAP's Life Orb and weaken it that way.

So Knock Off does have consequences. I don't think they are overwhelming but I don't think they are insignificant. What I can say is that Knock Off affects checks significantly only on an invested mixed set, which I think is an argument in favor of it being a balanced support option. Right now I'm holding it In Consideration, possibly going to a poll.

Yawn seems to have significant support, direct status moves not as much. Pushing Yawn into Accepted Sets.

- - - - -

I'd like to introduce one last set myself which is the culmination of a few discussed moves for a viable momentum set.

Name: A Moving Memento
Move 1: Moonblast / Aura Sphere
Move 2: Parting Shot
Move 3: Feather Dance / Snarl
Move 4: Moonlight
Ability: Natural Cure / Aroma Veil
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 52 SpD / 184 Spe
Nature: Timid

• Moonblast or Aura Sphere serves as the main STAB. Moonblast hits more targets for neutral damage and has a chance to lower Special Attack as well. Aura Sphere is specifically for Bisharp in tandem with Snarl, and prevents it from utilizing Attack gains from Snarl to overwhelm your team.
• Parting Shot is the transition move that lowers opponent stats one last time before switching.
• The third slot is your primary stat reduction move. Feather Dance targets physical attackers, Snarl targets special attackers and does chip damage.
• Once their stats are lowered, many threats fail to out-damage Moonlight, allowing CAP to recover its health and weaken then further until they switch out.
• Moonlight allows CAP to recover its HP after taking a weakened hit so it can come in a second or third time.
• Speed EV's outspeed Base 110 Pokemon. If you want to be gutsy, stay in on Cawmodore as it Belly Drums and cut its attack to +4 instead of +6! 52 SpD EVs cause 4 SpA Tomohawk's -1 Air Slash to drop below 50% damage, therefore never outpacing Moonlight.

This set does need outside hazard support so that opponents pay a price for switching out, however it's basically a stat-specific Memento set that capitalizes on CAP's good typing and status removal upon switchout. Incoming Calm Mind or Swords Dance sweepers can find their work invalidated, and unless they can also recover they are locked in a losing situation against CAP. Alternatively CAP could run Aroma Veil and not be susceptible to Taunt instead of Status, but Natural Cure is probably the better choice in most instances.

The purpose of this set is to provide maximum aid to your setup sweepers by lowering the opponents stats and then using Parting Shot to switch out. Effectively speaking you can leave in a threat with -3 Attack or -2 SpA depending on which of those helps your team build more, and send CAP in to do it repeatedly over the course of a match. I feel like Moonlight is a move that can be utilized here but will not be broken as an option on other sets, whereas reliable recovery moves with more PP could become a distraction.

 

[NumberCruncher]

While knock will potentially cripple CAP22's checks/counters it ultimately doesn't allow it to beat them, just weaken them for its teammates which is fine by me. For example, even if you knock a scarf or leftovers off Mollux or plasmanta both still 1v1 CAP22 (unless HP ground, but in that case it won't run knock to begin with). The only real exception to this is Kitsunoh but ultimately I believe that CAP22 will always be able to take on at least a few of its would be checks utilizing a coverage move (like HP fire/ground).

Also I'll just throw this out there: 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 117-138 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

True, but Mollux can't beat anything else once your switch CAP out, which it will, because that's the entire concept behind it. Mollux gets most of its good match-ups from either threatening a speedy move or threatening to Trick. Once Mollux takes the Knock, it's pretty much relegated to sack duty.

 

[Natu Worry]

True, but Mollux can't beat anything else once your switch CAP out, which it will, because that's the entire concept behind it. Mollux gets most of its good match-ups from either threatening a speedy move or threatening to Trick. Once Mollux takes the Knock, it's pretty much relegated to sack duty.

I agree that knock SEVERELY cripples Mollux from doing its job throughout the match, that being said I still don't think it's anti concept because CAP22 still can't beat it on its own. It really comes down to the question: How effectively do we want CAP22 to weaken its checks for its teammates?

Gengar can switchin to Cap 22 due to it's typing, knock off stops that potential to switch in threatening with a near ohko.

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 117-138 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Gengar is irrelevant.