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Swalot to Unranked: Even prior to Muk coming to PU, Swalot was mostly overshined by Roselia, however it had a niche as it could Pokemon such as Knock Off Simipour, Poliwrath and Ninetales. However Muk can do that exact same role with a much higher Special Defense and unlike Swalot, it isn't a sitting duck, can actually fire back with a base 105 Attack and can also switch into Pokemon such as Simipour, Simisage, and Rotom-F. It is almost outclassed as a Pokemon. Muk can pull of a much better Assault Vest and Choice Band with a much higher Special Defense and Attack respectively and Roselia can pull of a better Utility Set with a much better type, movepool, and the ability to use an Evolvite. The only set I could see using a Swalot is a Choice Specs user as it has a surprisingly good special movepool but it faces competition with Serviper but other than that it is almost useless.
Swalot to Unranked: Even prior to Muk coming to PU, Swalot was mostly overshined by Roselia, however it had a niche as it could Pokemon such as Knock Off Simipour, Poliwrath and Ninetales. However Muk can do that exact same role with a much higher Special Defense and unlike Swalot, it isn't a sitting duck, can actually fire back with a base 105 Attack and can also switch into Pokemon such as Simipour, Simisage, and Rotom-F. It is almost outclassed as a Pokemon. Muk can pull of a much better Assault Vest and Choice Band with a much higher Special Defense and Attack respectively and Roselia can pull of a better Utility Set with a much better type, movepool, and the ability to use an Evolvite. The only niche I could see with using a Swalot is a Choice Specs user as it has a surprisingly good special movepool but other than that it is almost useless.
Alright now time to hear some of my noms for the vr.
Leavanny - D / Unranked : After the smeargle drop, Leavanny has lost its niche, being a suicide web setter to smeargle. The only thing it has going for it is that it is a faster web setter which still doesnt help it outspeed threats like purugly (cause fake out) or lopunny which can switcheroo AV.
Pelipper - A+ / A- : This mon is arguably the best defogger in this tier, with acess to moves like scald for chances to burn, hurricane for powerful stab and confusions, uturn for being a bulky pivot, tailwind to give speed boosts for the rest of your team and knock off to get rid of important items.
Swanna - A- : Since Defensive swanna is no longer a set, the only niche that swanna has is affensive swanna. Apart from this swanna is completely outclassed by pelipper. Swanna can easily be prepared for and struggles against most special defensive mons such as clefairy and audino.
Leavanny - D / Unranked : After the smeargle drop, Leavanny has lost its niche, being a suicide web setter to smeargle. The only thing it has going for it is that it is a faster web setter which still doesn't help it outspeed threats like purugly (cause fake out) or lopunny which can switcheroo AV.
While i agree Leavanny has gotten worse overall i don't think such a drastic drop should occur right now, what separates Leavanny from Smeargle is not just the speed (which out-speeds much more relevant Pokemon such as Stoutland,Gabite,Altaria and avoid would be Smeargle anti-leads such as Taunt Misdreavus/Fast Grumpig,Glalie,Bullet Seed Leafeon) but also initial power with Leaf Storm and stronger Knock Off which can make a differance. While i am not denying Smeargle as a much better lead i don't think such a drastic drop should occur to Leavanny but one none the less possibly around the C+/C rank depending.
Also going back to a previous nom i made.
Venipede to C - Venipede has it's uses still its the only reason this isn't for D/C- but i wouldn't put it over Glalie for mediocre spikers mostly due to Glalie now having better use as a Sui-Spiker due to outspeeding and taunting Smeargle which is really nice right now for offensive teams that don't want to sack something as sleep fodder against it.
Initially i focused on just Smeargle but looking further into it Glalie has some other good traits going for it right now such as Freeze-Dry against Pelipper which is a very common defogger rn along with the ability to stop all forms of hazard removal (bar Swanna) from removing its Spikes with with that valuable Taunt as well as stop would be setters with there own. With this in mind i think moving Glalie to C+ and Venipede to C seems like a better placing showing Glalie has indeed gotten better with the shift.
Alright now time to hear some of my noms for the vr.
Leavanny - D / Unranked : After the smeargle drop, Leavanny has lost its niche, being a suicide web setter to smeargle. The only thing it has going for it is that it is a faster web setter which still doesnt help it outspeed threats like purugly (cause fake out) or lopunny which can switcheroo AV.
Pelipper - A+ / A- : This mon is arguably the best defogger in this tier, with acess to moves like scald for chances to burn, hurricane for powerful stab and confusions, uturn for being a bulky pivot, tailwind to give speed boosts for the rest of your team and knock off to get rid of important items.
Swanna - A- : Since Defensive swanna is no longer a set, the only niche that swanna has is affensive swanna. Apart from this swanna is completely outclassed by pelipper. Swanna can easily be prepared for and struggles against most special defensive mons such as clefairy and audino.
I don't know where to start. Well, MaroGod is completely right about the Leavanny nom. While it does need a drop, it still has that nice speed and offensive presence going for it. Now onto the real post:
Pelipper in A+ and saying 'it's arguably best defogger in the tier' is a huge overstatement. Yes, Peli is a really nice defogger but it's pretty passive and it's weak to rocks. It's also rather easy to break as it's bulk, while decent, doesn't let it handle powerful wallbreakers like Stoutland, main reason why Vullaby still has the best defogger title. I also don't understand why you're overhyping Pelipper and shitting on Swan. It hasn't gotten that worse at all. Sure, Machoke leaving did affect it as it's one less thing to check and defensive sets are non-existant with Peli back, but Offensive Swanna is still ridiculously good. It's one of the few hazard removers that fit offense (we have like... Swan itself and Cryo) and still carries a punch (i mean, Cryo's power is decent but you can't compare it to Swanna's at all). You point out that it's easy to prepare for it but it isn't. Its STAB combo is quite difficult to wall and it comes off from p good 87 SpA stat, boosted by LO. Special walls get pressured a lot by a Scald burn (barring Clef due Magic Guard; I won't count heal bell as a way to get past this pressure as you lose momentum and it's a free turn for Swanna. Hurricane's confusion also helps you against Special Walls and it is as likely to happen as Scald burns. Peli didn't impact Swan at all, barring the niche defensive set.
A nom of my own:
Arbok from A- to B+:
Arbok has never been so appealing for me. It's a wallbreaker that needs to set up to actually wallbreak, it's bulk is rather lackluster, it's pretty one-dimensional and it's slow. You may think 'but it has Sucker Punch for its bad speed', however, his Sucker Punch is really weak, not to mention this move in general is pretty unreliable. It's power at +1 isn't stellar either: It's, in fact, kinda easy to wall. Some top-tier mons can easily revenge or check it. Every healthy scarfer is able to tank a +1 Sucker Punch, some even a +2 if healthy; it ain't that difficult to defensively check either: unless Shed Skin (which makes even harder to set up), Gourg-XL is a solid check, and most rockers such as Tank Golem, Stunfisk and Relicanth stomach a +1 Earthquake and retaliate back with STAB moves. It now recieves competition from Muk, which, although a lot slower, has better initial power, is a bit more versatile and packs a more reliable priority. Overall I think this mon has fallen out of flavor and shouldn't be so high rn.
I'm just wanting to make one nomination that has been on my mind for a while now, and has also recently been up for debate in the pu room on ps!.
Cacturne from A+ to S rank
Cacturne is one of the, if not the best wall breaker in the tier currently. Sporting 115 base Attack and and Special Attack, and access to great coverage and the strongest priority in the tier, there's no real question why. Cacturne can run not only a physical set, but a special set and a mixed set, and even spinoffs of those standard sets.
Cacturne also has only a select few pokemon that can counter it, causing huge problems for many teams. Correct me if I am wrong, but the only relevant cacturne counters in the tier currently are Clefairy (sometimes), Monferno (sometimes), Muk, Mawile (sometimes), Colbur berry grumpig (only sometimes and very unreliable), and sometimes tangela. Do note that all of these say SOMETIMES because they only check one or a few of the sets, not all of them.
The next thing i'm going to show you is a wall of calcs on each of these counters. Here are the three cacturne sets i'm basing these calcs off of, the two most common sets in the metagame right now.
Cacturne @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Energy Ball/giga drain
- Dark Pulse
- Sucker Punch
- Focus Blast
252 Atk Life Orb Cacturne Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 250-294 (72.6 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 169-200 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO
Adamant nature is needed for this calc, however adamant is almost always used anyways unless you want to outspeed and ko adamant pawniards.
252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Monferno: 121-143 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
the only reliable way to counter cacturne with monferno is a full spDef wall set.
252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 277-326 (91.4 - 107.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Mawile counters the physical set, but not the special set or mixed set
tangela can only beat cacturne if the cacturne is physical, and you run hp fire or sludge bomb. If not, cacturne sets up swords dances on you.
So as you can see, the only reliable cacturne counters to every set it runs on this list are muk and specially defensive monferno. Therefore, if you use any other pokemon it comes down to mindgames on which set it is, and you can very easily lose a pokemon or two by switching your mawile into a focus blast, or switching your clefairy into poison jab. Not only that, but there are even the more uncommon sets like choice band cacturne that can simply just cripple things like tangela and clefairy with switcheroo, and then have the ability to switch moves.
However, just because there are only two counters for pokemon, it doesn't mean that it is S rank worthy. With smart plays, you can avoid losing a pokemon to cacturne, and even if you do you can just simply check the pokemon and have the advantage again. However, what stands out cacturne from typical wallbreakers is that cacturne also fares well against offensive teams that handle cacturne by checking it, thanks to its STAB sucker punch, the strongest priority move in the tier. This makes it very difficult to even check cacturne, because with just a little bit of residual damage, many offensive pokeemon are OHKO'd by sucker punch.
Calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Floatzel: 253-298 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
this is with a neutral nature in attack, so an attack boosting nature would ohko it without any passive damage.
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 250-294 (85.9 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This calc requires an adamant nature, however adamant is usually preferred on physical cacturne anyways.
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 187-222 (60.1 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
One argument I hear often when discussing cacturne is that its too reliant on sucker punch. However, that isn't really even a problem, its reliance on sucker punch is well-merited. It is the strongest priority move in the tier right now, and as you have seen from those calcs above, it can ohko common offensive threats like floatzel and zebstrika. I mean sure, there are some okemon that can play around sucker punch, however that just turns into a mind game in itself, and with good predictions you can still put in work. Not to mention, cacturne's main job most of the time is breaking down defensive backbones on teams for another pokemon on your team to sweep later. Cacturne does this very effectively, the sucker punch is an added bonus to make it even more threatening to not just balance and stall, but offense too. This single flaw is not enough in my opinion to make it stay in A+ rank.
tldr; cacturne is not only an amazing wallbreaker, but also is very difficult to check. This makes cacturne very dangerous, and very viable. It is a premier powerhouse in the metagame right now, and with little support, can break down teams with relative ease.
However, it is very reliant on sucker punch against offensive teams, and also requires a fair amount of skill to use effectively, since it shines best with good predicting. Even with these flaws, Cacturne shines above most of the PU crowd, being a top tier pokemon right now.
I'm just wanting to make one nomination that has been on my mind for a while now, and has also recently been up for debate in the pu room on ps!.
Cacturne from A+ to S rank
Cacturne is one of the, if not the best wall breaker in the tier currently. Sporting 115 base Attack and and Special Attack, and access to great coverage and the strongest priority in the tier, there's no real question why. Cacturne can run not only a physical set, but a special set and a mixed set, and even spinoffs of those standard sets.
Cacturne also has only a select few pokemon that can counter it, causing huge problems for many teams. Correct me if I am wrong, but the only relevant cacturne counters in the tier currently are Clefairy (sometimes), Monferno (sometimes), Muk, Mawile (sometimes), Colbur berry grumpig (only sometimes and very unreliable), and sometimes tangela. Do note that all of these say SOMETIMES because they only check one or a few of the sets, not all of them.
The next thing i'm going to show you is a wall of calcs on each of these counters. Here are the three cacturne sets i'm basing these calcs off of, the two most common sets in the metagame right now.
Cacturne @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Energy Ball/giga drain
- Dark Pulse
- Sucker Punch
- Focus Blast
252 Atk Life Orb Cacturne Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 250-294 (72.6 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 169-200 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO
Adamant nature is needed for this calc, however adamant is almost always used anyways unless you want to outspeed and ko adamant pawniards.
252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Monferno: 121-143 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
the only reliable way to counter cacturne with monferno is a full spDef wall set.
252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 277-326 (91.4 - 107.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Mawile counters the physical set, but not the special set or mixed set
tangela can only beat cacturne if the cacturne is physical, and you run hp fire or sludge bomb. If not, cacturne sets up swords dances on you.
So as you can see, the only reliable cacturne counters to every set it runs on this list are muk and specially defensive monferno. Therefore, if you use any other pokemon it comes down to mindgames on which set it is, and you can very easily lose a pokemon or two by switching your mawile into a focus blast, or switching your clefairy into poison jab. Not only that, but there are even the more uncommon sets like choice band cacturne that can simply just cripple things like tangela and clefairy with switcheroo, and then have the ability to switch moves.
However, just because there are only two counters for pokemon, it doesn't mean that it is S rank worthy. With smart plays, you can avoid losing a pokemon to cacturne, and even if you do you can just simply check the pokemon and have the advantage again. However, what stands out cacturne from typical wallbreakers is that cacturne also fares well against offensive teams that handle cacturne by checking it, thanks to its STAB sucker punch, the strongest priority move in the tier. This makes it very difficult to even check cacturne, because with just a little bit of residual damage, many offensive pokeemon are OHKO'd by sucker punch.
Calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Floatzel: 253-298 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
this is with a neutral nature in attack, so an attack boosting nature would ohko it without any passive damage.
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 250-294 (85.9 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This calc requires an adamant nature, however adamant is usually preferred on physical cacturne anyways.
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 187-222 (60.1 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
One argument I hear often when discussing cacturne is that its too reliant on sucker punch. However, that isn't really even a problem, its reliance on sucker punch is well-merited. It is the strongest priority move in the tier right now, and as you have seen from those calcs above, it can ohko common offensive threats like floatzel and zebstrika. I mean sure, there are some okemon that can play around sucker punch, however that just turns into a mind game in itself, and with good predictions you can still put in work. Not to mention, cacturne's main job most of the time is breaking down defensive backbones on teams for another pokemon on your team to sweep later. Cacturne does this very effectively, the sucker punch is an added bonus to make it even more threatening to not just balance and stall, but offense too. This single flaw is not enough in my opinion to make it stay in A+ rank.
tldr; cacturne is not only an amazing wallbreaker, but also is very difficult to check. This makes cacturne very dangerous, and very viable. It is a premier powerhouse in the metagame right now, and with little support, can break down teams with relative ease.
However, it is very reliant on sucker punch against offensive teams, and also requires a fair amount of skill to use effectively, since it shines best with good predicting. Even with these flaws, Cacturne shines above most of the PU crowd, being a top tier pokemon right now.
I have to disagree with Cacturne: A+ -> S . Cacturne is really good for a variety of reasons you mentioned, amazing attack stats both at an outstanding 115 for the tier, the strongest priority in the tier in sucker punch and two of the best boosting moves in the game, nasty plot and Swords Dance backed by a solid ability in water absorb. Now just looking at these traits you'd think "Huh this mon might even be broken, with those kinds of tools it must be impossible to stop it from getting a kill!" But that isn't the full story. Cacturne has a middling speed tier, and a typing that leaves it mediocre defensively. It relies on sucker punch to withstand all the mons that would otherwise murder it with impunity, and even then it only saves it from so many. Zebstrika and floatzel do die yes, but the stoutland calc is slightly misleading as stoutland isn't a mon to accumulate damage much damage bar SR, of which 3 times or so it needs to be in before sucker punch actually ends it still valid but more situational. As with stoutland many mons can just be faster than cacturne, live a sucker and threaten it with an OHKO, cacturne is just that slow.
You mention it has no counters (You forgot to put NP on the special set and muk loses to SD so its not a counter, a counter has to deal with all the sets safely), but with those stats its a given defensive its frustrating to handle, so that shouldn't be the sole way its judged. The calcs you show in the first part (I referenced the 2nd part in the first paragraph) don't really show much, poison jab is ran solely for clefairy and defensive tangela so yeah its gonna 2HKO, otherwise there'd be no reason to run it, mawile isn't checking NP cacturne anyway dark pulse alone does a lot. Also choice band switcheroo sounds bad, why limit your move freedom making you easily revenged killed just to gimmicky cripple a mon while weakening yourself (+ seed bomb is bad to be locked into anyway). Now this isn't a point its just me suggesting you stay consistent with the nature, its really confusing why you're switching from adamant/modest to jolly/timid when its clear you want the +attack if you want maximum wallbreaking.
Now onto how Cacturne actually fares vs offense, I talked a little about it but this is gonna be the bulk of that discussion. When cacturne gets in it can be a pain to offense, its sucker is undeniably strong and makes it difficult to punish for coming in which offense thrives on. Water absorb also gives it the chance to get a free switch in but thats prediction based and something I'm gonna avoid for the sake of not talking in circles. Aside from the aforementioned ability it just rarely finds its way into matches safely, it is very frail, neutral to SR and will be worn down by LO recoil over time, those numerous weaknesses don't help it either. That sucker that is such a blessing is also a curse, giving you a chance to switch into something that can live a sucker, such as the extremely common monferno who can switch into anything pretty easy. Another thing about its typing is taking up the generally 1 grass type position on a team makes it riskier in general to handle the offensive threats like golem that are on offense, or in general on teams often. Lastly NP sucker punch can be really weak sometimes and that sucks for its matchup vs offense but its great otherwise.
Overall Cacturne is very impressive, and worthy of A+ but not S, in theory its this incredible mon that overcomes its flaws but in practice thats not the total case, being somewhat difficult to fit on teams due to its typing and struggling to actually unleash its power sometimes.
I would like to add to the above nomination with a point that Zt didn't make which is the fact that there are like 3 dark resists in the entire tier lol.
Monferno, Clefairy, Mawile. Other Dark-types I guess (although if Pawniard is their Dark resist (252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 116-136 (50.2 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) lol). That's it.
I tried to abuse this in that dark spam workshop team I made, and despite being super frail, Cacturne has one of the most spammable moves in this entire tier: Dark Pulse. With a Life Orb and base 115 Special Attack, it's a nightmare to switch in on unless your team has one of the previously mentioned mons or like AV Muk. Dark Pulse combined with decent recovery in Giga Drain and a very spammable Sucker Punch makes Cacturne a nightmare for balance. As a result, I support this nom, yes.
edit: there are four dark resists, I forgot vullaby. s/o Kaboom
Now for a nom of my own:
Misdreavus to A- - This thing is just really good right now. Looking at the mons in the B+ rank, Misdreavus and Rapidash, which was previously nominated, feel like they are better than this. Especially with shit like Rotom-S lol.
Misdreavus is an amazing stallbreaker with its Nasty Plot + Taunt set, and it has a lot of setup opportunities due to its decent bulk. After it sets up, it is a very good cleaner, especially when combined with Sticky Web (Missy + Webs is one of my favorite archetypes rn). It even has access to WoW/Twave and can run a decent defensive set with double status, increasing its versatility. To me, it's just way too good for B+.
I have to disagree with Cacturne: A+ -> S . Cacturne is really good for a variety of reasons you mentioned, amazing attack stats both at an outstanding 115 for the tier, the strongest priority in the tier in sucker punch and two of the best boosting moves in the game, nasty plot and Swords Dance backed by a solid ability in water absorb. Now just looking at these traits you'd think "Huh this mon might even be broken, with those kinds of tools it must be impossible to stop it from getting a kill!" But that isn't the full story. Cacturne has a middling speed tier, and a typing that leaves it mediocre defensively. It relies on sucker punch to withstand all the mons that would otherwise murder it with impunity, and even then it only saves it from so many. Zebstrika and floatzel do die yes, but the stoutland calc is slightly misleading as stoutland isn't a mon to accumulate damage much damage bar SR, of which 3 times or so it needs to be in before sucker punch actually ends it still valid but more situational. As with stoutland many mons can just be faster than cacturne, live a sucker and threaten it with an OHKO, cacturne is just that slow.
You mention it has no counters (You forgot to put NP on the special set and muk loses to SD so its not a counter, a counter has to deal with all the sets safely), but with those stats its a given defensive its frustrating to handle, so that shouldn't be the sole way its judged. The calcs you show in the first part (I referenced the 2nd part in the first paragraph) don't really show much, poison jab is ran solely for clefairy and defensive tangela so yeah its gonna 2HKO, otherwise there'd be no reason to run it, mawile isn't checking NP cacturne anyway dark pulse alone does a lot. Also choice band switcheroo sounds bad, why limit your move freedom making you easily revenged killed just to gimmicky cripple a mon while weakening yourself (+ seed bomb is bad to be locked into anyway). Now this isn't a point its just me suggesting you stay consistent with the nature, its really confusing why you're switching from adamant/modest to jolly/timid when its clear you want the +attack if you want maximum wallbreaking.
Now onto how Cacturne actually fares vs offense, I talked a little about it but this is gonna be the bulk of that discussion. When cacturne gets in it can be a pain to offense, its sucker is undeniably strong and makes it difficult to punish for coming in which offense thrives on. Water absorb also gives it the chance to get a free switch in but thats prediction based and something I'm gonna avoid for the sake of not talking in circles. Aside from the aforementioned ability it just rarely finds its way into matches safely, it is very frail, neutral to SR and will be worn down by LO recoil over time, those numerous weaknesses don't help it either. That sucker that is such a blessing is also a curse, giving you a chance to switch into something that can live a sucker, such as the extremely common monferno who can switch into anything pretty easy. Another thing about its typing is taking up the generally 1 grass type position on a team makes it riskier in general to handle the offensive threats like golem that are on offense, or in general on teams often. Lastly NP sucker punch can be really weak sometimes and that sucks for its matchup vs offense but its great otherwise.
Overall Cacturne is very impressive, and worthy of A+ but not S, in theory its this incredible mon that overcomes its flaws but in practice thats not the total case, being somewhat difficult to fit on teams due to its typing and struggling to actually unleash its power sometimes.
First off, I apologize for the poor formatting and use of the sets i used as examples, I was in a rush and didn't catch what I did haha. Now, on to my response.
Yes, my calcs on the first part are fairly obvious, however it still is notable to me that these coverage moves beat some of the common switchins on cacturne, causing it to be very hard to counter until properly scouting it. That was what I was trying to get at with the different calculations in the first part of my post. Also, there are plenty of other offensive pokemon that get ohko'd by sucker punch and also cannot take advantage of it, such as most Mr. mimes, electrode, most simipours, dodrio, etc. I just happened to only post two pokemon because of the lack of time for me to post. Apologies on the stoutland however, as you are correct on that. I say this to further emphasize how effective and deadly sucker punch is on cacturne. While sucker punch can sometimes be unreliable, it does significant work on about half of the notable offensive pokemon in the tier, i hope no one would try to sucker punch things like rotoms and misdreavus's anyways for the sake of not putting yourself in a disadvantage. Also my last point on sucker punch, since it does dismantle around 45ish to 50% of the offensive pokemon in pu i would estimate, I might try to get an exact number soon, that would mean at least 2 or 3 pokemon on offensive teams will most likely be threatened by sucker punch. This is very notable, as it expresses how useful cacturne can still be in "disadvantageous" matchups.
Finally, its typing. Yes, I do realize that cacturne's defensive typing is mediocre at best. However, there are plenty of successful pokemon in this tier right now that struggle with their defensive typing, and they succeed solely because they don't rely on their typing defensively very often anyways. Cacturne would appreciate being able to switch in to some common type attacks, sure, however its offensive typing is fantastic, with STAB on its sucker punch and dark pulse being so great in this tier, with STAB grass and coverage to add icing on the cake. Getting cacturne into the battle unscathed isn't as hard as it seems, because pivots are plentiful in this tier, and proper predictions can get cacturne in fairly easily as well.
To summarize, Cacturne's reliance on sucker punch is not completely a bad thing, because it allows cacturne to succeed in all matchups when played correctly. Its typing does wonders for it offensively, making up for its struggles defensively, and getting cacturne in the match to wallbreak is fairly easy when used with a pivot and predictions.
Pros:
Its offensive typing allows it to spam STAB dark moves that hardly any pokemon resist
very few counters
does well in nearly all matchups
strongest priority in the tier
relatively splashable on most teams
115 base stats in both attack stats is very impressive in this tier
one of the most versatile offensive pokemon in the tier right now
Cons:
Low speed tier
A little reliant on sucker punch to beat offense
Switching in is fairly difficult
Basically every con for cacturne is made up for with a pro similar to it.
This is the breakdown of cacturne in this metagame, and on paper it looks S rank to me. However, you are correct in saying that not all things on paper are true in practice. Therefore, I will post replays here soon when I have time. I do think though that most of you have played cacturne enough so far to see how strong it is.
Sliggoo has been pretty overlooked for a long time but I think after using it on different teams recently, I can pull a lot of actual knowledge into my argument. First off I would like to say that Sliggoo's resistances are pretty unique SpeakIng that the only other commonly used Dragon-type in the tier is Altaria and the added Flying-type makes it much more weak to certain stuff like Rock- and non STAB Ice Beam (Sliggoo is still obviously weak to it but it can take Floatzel's Ice Beam + others much more comfortably.) This makes it a great check to Floatzel, Zebstrika, Stunfisk, Swanna, Pelipper, and Politoed just to name a few. It also has a fantastic ability in Sap Sipper which makes Sliggoo and even better check than Altaria to stuff like Sub BU Gogoat and Cacturne. Now bulk wise Sliggoo is rediculous. For a max / max spread for curse you end up with 339 HP / 142 Def / 357 SpD and this isn't taking account for any Curse boost you have set up or Eviolite. This makes it so Sliggoo can act a back up special pivot early game and force switches with Curse in which you can leech off of. Now that I've talked about it bulk and resistances I'm going to go ahead and move onto its sweeping capabilities. Think of Curse Muk, it's literally the same exact thing but with Fairies being the immediate response which I want to say are lesser seen than Steel-types but don't quote me on that. Am I saying because of that Sliggoo is the superior Curse sweeper? No? It's shaky being dependant on Outrage and Eviolite for pre-boosted Physical Bulk. And unless you have Metang on your team Mime can be a bitch. But they both snowball and get out of hand without proper counters / counter measures which is the main point I'm trying to get across. Of course it has its flaws.
Lets Mime in for free if it's Curse
Eviolite dependant
Needs Curse boost to handle physical attackers
Water check that can't deal with Lapras.
But it handles a handful of the meta most common Pokemon while also providing quite a bit of utility in its pivoting and sweeping capabilities. Not to even mention it doesn't have teambuilding issues as it pairs well with a lot of common Pokemon like Metang and Simipour for example. Now if you disagree with me that's fine, but try to find a logical argument that tells me that Sliggoo is worse than Slowpoke, Ditto, and Wartortle. I honestly think Sliggoo is a B- Pokemon but let me take my baby steps with this Pokemon first.
Edit2: getting more replays for Megazard, anyone else curious to see how Sliggoo works, etc.
Replay 1: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-421689893
Helps me pivot into Zebstrika during turn two and forces Mime to come in which I send out Marowak to pressure stuff / remove the Sliggoo counter. After snatching a Sub on turn 16 I remove Mime and now I'm in a much more comfortable position to sweep, good prediction next turn (Cacturne tries to get an SD on the switch) guarantees Sliggoo will win outside of hax (Crit X-Scizzor). Much less notably on turn 14, having Sliggoo in the back gave me a few options from that position, although any Zebstrika counter could have opened up that other path as well. I instead choose to just Blizzard because I wanted to get Marowak behind a Sub and eliminate Mime or Cacturne.
This has been on my mind for a while now, but seeing how much succes i've had with i'm feeling pretty confident about it.
So here i would like to nom Trapinch for B-/B
I'm doing this mostly because how common Voltturn is right now and how much Trapinch both appreciaties it and checks it, as with it's max spdef set + 100 base attack stab earthquake allows it to at least 1v1 all relevant voltswitch users in the metagame bar the Rotoms (including things like ice punch electabuzz and chinchou). It also 1v1's other mons like stunfisk; psychic types most notably grumpig and kadabra and special fire types in Simisear and Ninetales.
However to do this effectively it often needs to be brought safely either on a predicted volt switch or other non damaging moves, or it needs to be volt switched/u-turned in (which is why it works so well on voltturn teams)
Being able to 1v1 all these mons may not seem like all that much, plenty of mons can hit a large portion of the meta, but the great thing about Trapinch is that once it's in it's targets can't switch out which allows it to take out key threats to it's team 100% of the time.
Note that minimal speed is run, because it's poor base 10 speed stat won't let it outspeed anything in the metagame anyways so it might as well run it for the occasional trickroom teams.
Here are some calcs to give some validity the claims i just made (warning there's a lot of calcs)
vs Raichu
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 350-414 (134 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 101-122 (34.3 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
vs Electrode
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 60 HP / 0 Def Electrode: 290-344 (105 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Electrode Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 104-125 (35.3 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
vs Electabuzz
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 254-300 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Electabuzz Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Trapinch: 116-138 (39.4 - 46.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(i'm assuming - def because ice punch is electabuzz' best bet against it, though even without it Trapinch still kills)
vs Chinchou
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 302-356 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Chinchou Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 84-102 (28.5 - 34.6%) -- 54.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
vs def/off Probopass
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Probopass: 312-372 (96.2 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Probopass Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 52-63 (17.6 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 316-376 (103.9 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Probopass Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 76-91 (25.8 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
vs Zebstrika
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 314-372 (107.9 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 96-114 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
vs Stunfisk
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 174-206 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 63-75 (21.4 - 25.5%) -- 46.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
Stunfisk could run yawn, but it's really uncommon.
vs off/def grumpig
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Trapinch Crunch vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 164-194 (48 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Trapinch Quick Attack vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 41-49 (12 - 14.3%)
252+ SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 96-114 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Grumpig: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Trapinch Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Grumpig: 164-194 (45 - 53.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Trapinch Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Grumpig: 41-49 (11.2 - 13.4%)
0 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 67-81 (22.7 - 27.5%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
Both Eq and Crunch are shown as it could be colbur, quick attack is shown to show that it will finish the job effectively. Note that Trapinch is beaten by offensive variants with psyshock.
vs Kadabra
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 265-313 (119.3 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Trapinch Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 71-84 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 93.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 106-126 (36 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
vs Simisear
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisear: 314-372 (107.9 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Simisear Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 146-173 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
vs Ninetales
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 276-326 (96.1 - 113.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 110-130 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Some flaws in Trapinch.
It becomes death/setup fodder after having killed it's targeted mon due to having too low health/ speed to do anything
It's vulnerable to grumpig/mr. mime running psyshock
Some replays that show how Trapinch works in practice
There are enough noms here I actually want to comment on because I feel people are overlooking significant issues for me to make a giant post. Swalot seems like a no brainer, Leavanny doesn't need to drop that much, and I think people should give Swanna more of a chance because offensive is still quite good. Lopunny is still garbage and no significant replays have been posted so this is like the third time it's been nominated to rise where people basically describe the set and don't explain why it's good/better. Missy is also an interesting nom, it generally puts in work but it's never some incredible threat thanks to its lack of decent resistances. Every time I use it, it really fails to come in on anything in particular and being limited to revenge utility and only coming in on a select few mons like bouff, CB muk, and chatot with correct predictions really hurts how it performs in my eyes. There's also random things like defensive golem and mawile but even then you have to take significant chip while crippling them or mawile can BP out. idk, I used a ton of NP before the shifts and enough dual status afterwards and my main gripe would be how long it has to sit there before doing anything.
Sliggoo needs better replays, I really haven't learned anything from a game where the opponent leaves klang in to get set up on and only had coil arbok as a "check" to begin with on their outdated sample team. I still think it's incredibly mediocre and wouldn't want to use it over anything else, but replays are the best thing for proving it can actually do anything. The only relevant new thing I see it getting is the ability to check Cacturne fairly well as pretty much anything else it can do is just completely outclassed, but I don't know whether that's enough to compensate for how mediocre of a sweeper it is in a sort of "this is the only thing that makes it good, put up with how bad it is otherwise" type of situation. I think the comparison to other D mons is a little unfair though, those have proven niches which they can use effectively while even Sliggoo's nom talks about how all these mons outperform it in random areas. My logical argument for why Slowpoke is better is that I know exactly why I'd want to use it and the kinds of teams it fits on, and Wartortle has a few unique properties over Prinplup. Hell, Sliggoo doesn't even take on most offensive waters with its float/toed/simi/lapras/huntail/seaking matchups being questionable at best. I wouldn't be against Sliggoo as it's still not the worst thing on paper but I don't want to rank things on the basis that "yeah this seems ok and has better stats/movepool than other ranked stuff so why not". Needs replays or something more substantial.
Pelipper sucks. It's really easy to pressure. It's not amazingly reliable at defogging. It only walls things it's supposed to if they don't have the right set. What it pivots into mostly ends up being some random defensive stuff that most every bulky mon can check to some extent and a double or two leaves it too weak to come in on anything it might've checked since it needs to be really healthy to effectively take on stuff like Leafeon. Electric coverage is incredibly easy to start slapping on random mons. I can't be positive about this mon, I'd rank it as one of the worst mons in B+ right now. I know this isn't a terribly popular opinion but I really don't see why everyone likes Pelipper so much (I mean it's awesome but purely as how it functions in the meta). Don't understand the hype in the slightest. Look into offensive because if you honestly want this to rise on defensive merit then I advise you take a good hard look at how good the mon actually is.
I understand the hype train for Cacturne is falling but I'd still like to see it in S. Kaboom basically brought up that one main point people want to keep it back with in that it can put in significantly less work than you'd expect of an S rank when prepared for. My problem is, not only is it still that incredibly strong attacker and overall threatening mon but this specific preparation is quite a bit to go through. The effect it has on the meta and what teams you can use is like no other mon we have, Cacturne has some very select checks that you need to be packing unless you have some brilliant master plan to not sack a mon every time it gets in on any number of slower defensive things. You can run Monferno. You can run Muk. You can run Vullaby and pray for no Focus Blast although Vullaby is far from the hardest mon to prepare for and weaken. You can try phys def clefairy+metang or a core like that which might be able to beat it depending on the set (and praying it doesn't have the right mixed coverage). But, other than that, there isn't too much you can do. It really forces you to go specific ways in building when dealing with it, and that to me has a large part of why I want it in S. It's that hard to build a successful team without monferno/muk/vullaby. If you don't think so then I'd like to hear counterarguments or see team examples, but until then here's 2/3 of my open games vs cryalot that I think pretty clearly show off how you have to preserve your monferno or suffer the consequences (1, 2) which is exactly my point on how this thing has almost no checks. We have things with few counters like Floatzel or even Lapras, but Cacturne also has a severe lack of checks for general offense and even balance hurts to find them which is where it sets itself apart.
Trapinch just got posted while I was doing this. Neutral-ish, it's quite underrated and can practically guarantee the matchup vs probo+muk hurr durr but it really only is going on those specific teams which can hold it back. Still, putting it on the level of Klang or Volbeat seems about fair in that level of specific support where they really fit that niche.
This is gonna be relatively short cause its painful typing on a touchscreen keyboard on a desktop.
I agree with this nom as I used Sliggoo for a decent amount of time. Sliggoo checks a lot of common Pokemon as mentioned previously. But one thing I said that should happen (ik u guys probably tired of me saying this) if Sliggoo cant at least make D-rank, for the love of god unrank dogshit Pokemon in Scraggy, Slowpoke, and Lampent. Sliggoo serves its purpose better than what those Pokemon is used for. Being able to literally switch in on some of the top tier threats multiple times and can set up fairly easy with Curse and its corresponding bulk, easily deserves a rank. I think C- would fit well for Sliggoo looking at the Pokemon placed there but if it cannot make D-rank pls take off those bad mons.
Cacturne's a huge threat atm. I would place it S-rank because of its ability to run a variety of sets, and just its sheer wallbreaking power. Its incredibly hard to switch into and the Pokemon that does switch into Cacturne gets worn down fairly easy due to their lack of recovery or them having to check other Pokemon that partners well with Cacturne (bar Vullaby, carries Roost but Focus Blast Cacturne bops). Cacturne is also really easy to fit onto teams and forces people to build a certain way to be able to handle it efficiently.
(putting these mons together not much to say for them)
Idk what to think of Misdreavus. While others say its really good, out of my past experience whether using it or against it, it never does anything but ends up getting used as death fodder. As Pelipper, im about that lumineon life so ha.
Would like to show my support for this nomination without repeating too much info. Cacturne is arguably one of the scariest and most unpredictable threats in the meta right now, for good reason. It has multiple viable sets and multiple viable moves on those sets. It can wallbreak, stallbreak, or be a terror to offense. It has very few true counters or even checks, and once those counters/checks are removed or weakened enough, nothing is in Cacturne's way barring Sucker Punch's damage output. However, the main thing I would like to focus on is the sheer unpredictability.
How many options does Cacturne have? Well, it has two powerful boosting moves in Nasty Plot and Swords Dance. It has Grass/Dark/Fighting coverage for both physical and special sets. It has the most powerful priority move in the game (tied with Extreme Speed). It can easily and successfully run mixed sets with biases towards either stat. It can choose its counters with its moveset (252+ Life Orb Focus Blast 2HKOes standard Monferno, 252+ Life Orb Poison Jab (yes, it's usually suboptimal) 2HKOes Clefairy, +2 Sucker Punch OHKOes 252 HP Muk, 252+ Life Orb Focus Blast 2HKOes Vullaby), as shown in the calcs above in Ztstaffo's post. Hell, it even has Spikes if you want to be that guy.
Basically, Cacturne can choose its counters and can terrorize every playstyle, and I think that is worthy of S-Rank, even given its flaws of low speed and bad bulk, especially considering that this is one mon on a team of six.
Okay, I think my opinion is pretty obvious as I've brought it up several times in chat. Sliggoo doesn't even deserve to be D ranked because it's pretty bad. You have few reasons to use it as a bulky wincon over Muk, Munchlax or Bulky Altaria. Muk checks almost everything Sliggoo checks and even more, isn't crippled by Knock Off or Trick due Sticky Hold and doesn't rely on an item for bulk, and uses its own item for passive recovery. Munchlax has got big bulk and its huge HP stat allow it to invest on Defense instead going max HP, so it rely less on curse boosts. For Altaria, it's typing is sometimes a lot better (I give a point Sliggoo's typing let it check water- and electric-types a lot better), it's got reliable recovery that only needs one slot, so it can afford to run coverage moves (Earthquake) or utility ones (Heal Bell, Substitute, CG). Sliggoo's just a niche mon. It's not only switch in for Mr. Mime, but switch in to every fairy type in the tier. And, while this typing is relatively uncommon, the common ones are really common and good, also threatening. Clefairy and Mawile can just switch in and set up rocks (both), attack (mainly Mawile), set up with boosting moves (both), grab momentum (mainly Mawile²) or cripple whatever switches in. Overall this guy is way too niche to deserve a ranking. Not to mention 'Slowpoke is D so it should be D' is a bad argument; Unlike Sliggoo, Slowpoke doesn't recieve competition from a lot of things, is one of the few water checks/monferno check with reliable recovery (also it's the only mon that checks those two threats, as every other monferno check just lose against water-types and vice-versa), brings utility to the table in TWave and has reliable recovery + Regenerator. Also I've heard 'but it only fits on defensive teams' and to be honest, so does Sliggoo. It doesn't deserve a rank at all.
Pretty much everything has been said, but I also support this guy. It's unpredictable and the only reliable counter is SpDef monferno. While it's surely overreliant on Sucker to deal with faster threats, and it can be played around via moves like Substitute, the same can be said about Cacturne, as it can go Dark Pulse/whatever rather than sucker, not to mention less-used sets that are kind of undiscovered, such as 3 attacks Spikes (everyone knows this, but sometimes its overshadowed by AoA) and NP, which obliterates slower teams ever harder than AoA does. Overall this is a metagame-defining mon and it's ridiculously easy to support. It should definitely rise.
Gonna have to disagree with Jungle fox here with his argument, as I believe sliggod's counters are very niche if you ask me. Clefairy's usage has dropped since the dropping of muk, mawile is a counter yes, but isn't going to be on every single team and can also be chipped down whilst mr mime is worn down even easier than the last 2. Most people's checks to dragons are things like regice (rather uncommon now tbh) and things like metang. Not to mention they nearly all lack recovery and people's team building really favors sliggoo right now since it's got the boost stat + recovery, whilst some amazing bulk too.
calcs:
252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 72+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 158-188 (46.6 - 55.4%)
252 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 72+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 96-114 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 72+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 138-164 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 72+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 101-120 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 15% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Ice Punch vs. +1 248 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Sliggoo: 118-140 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Not to mention alongside this, the amount of knock off users in the tier has diminished a lot since machoke got the boot, arguing that sliggoo doesn't deserve at least a spot on the rankings is beyond me tbh. It's a very very good pivot / status absorber / sweeper and I support its nomination to C.
I also support cacturne, it may lack the chance to switch in, but it is really powerful in both areas and dark resists are non existent and easily worn down right now.
Alongside cacturne -> stoutland to S is also something I want to bring up.
This dog is ridiculous right now, as ever tbh, and it's by far the most consistent and destructive wall breaker in the tier. doing a solid 40% to tangela, 45-50% to gourgeist, amazing abilities (sand rush has been doing work in pu open as far as i know) and the scrappy breaker set is just so so good right now, i want to see this as high up as possible tbh.
This thing has gotten significantly better with the drops. It's coverage is already really good, as Freeze Dry + Hydro just hits the whole tier, but it's got better with drops due it's ability to switch a lot more recklessly into water types, as Peli being in the tier makes most of them want to run HP Electric, which hits it for a lot less damage than Fighting coverage (Floatzel's and Simipour's Focus Blast, Basculin's and Simipour's Superpower). Pelipper itself also gives it a free switch even though Lapras does not like Toxic or getting its Specs knocked off, but both moves are generally worse/uncommon compared to U-turn and Hurricane.
I was going to make this nomination myself but then I realized Jungle Fox already did it a few weeks ago. It probably got lost in the hype surrounding the new drops, so I'd like to bring it up again.
I'd argue that Lapras is the single most difficult thing to switch into in the entire tier. Cacturne struggles with Vullaby and Muk. Stoutland is walled by Solrock and checked by Mawile. Muk's strongest move is walled by Steel types and Fire Punch just isn't strong enough to make up for it if you ask me. Hydro Pump+Freeze Dry is just amazing coverage and forces the opponent to play mind games. Anything that can tank a Freeze Dry will not want to take a Hydro Pump and vice versa. In fact, I think the only things that can reliably switch in on it are Regice, Articuno, or another Lapras, and all three are easily worn down by Stealth Rock support.
Because of how great it is at blowing holes in teams, it makes an outstanding teammate for things like Floatzel, Simipour, Leafeon, or even Cacturne. On top of that, Healing Wish support from Mr. Mime makes it extremely difficult to play around because it's bulky enough to live most unboosted attacks and KO that pokemon in the same turn. Then it switches out and waits for an opportunity for Mime to heal it up so it can wreak havoc again, now without having to worry about the Pokemon it KO'd previously. One of the replays below showcases that strategy particularly well against an opposing Muk.
I was going to make this nomination myself but then I realized Jungle Fox already did it a few weeks ago. It probably got lost in the hype surrounding the new drops, so I'd like to bring it up again.
I'd argue that Lapras is the single most difficult thing to switch into in the entire tier. Cacturne struggles with Vullaby and Muk. Stoutland is walled by Solrock and checked by Mawile. Muk's strongest move is walled by Steel types and Fire Punch just isn't strong enough to make up for it if you ask me. Hydro Pump+Freeze Dry is just amazing coverage and forces the opponent to play mind games. Anything that can tank a Freeze Dry will not want to take a Hydro Pump and vice versa. In fact, I think the only things that can reliably switch in on it are Regice, Articuno, or another Lapras, and all three are easily worn down by Stealth Rock support.
Because of how great it is at blowing holes in teams, it makes an outstanding teammate for things like Floatzel, Simipour, Leafeon, or even Cacturne. On top of that, Healing Wish support from Mr. Mime makes it extremely difficult to play around because it's bulky enough to live most unboosted attacks and KO that pokemon in the same turn. Then it switches out and waits for an opportunity for Mime to heal it up so it can wreak havoc again, now without having to worry about the Pokemon it KO'd previously. One of the replays below showcases that strategy particularly well against an opposing Muk.
I definitely agree. I personally feel looking at most other teams that loads of people don't prepare well enough for Lapras. They bring electric types or mons with water absorb / storm drain, such as politoed / cacturne / lumineon to counter water types. None of those mons can switch into a choice specs freeze dry and successfully deal damage back to Lapras. As Acast said it only has 3 switch ins: Regice / Audino / Lapras which is not about of options to beat it. Since Lapras can sometimes beat other Laprases, it can do alot when paired with a fighting type, like monferno. I believe Lapras definitely deserves b+ rank and maybe even a bottom a-.
I definitely agree. I personally feel looking at most other teams that loads of people don't prepare well enough for Lapras. They bring electric types or mons with water absorb / storm drain, such as politoed / cacturne / lumineon to counter water types. None of those mons can switch into a choice specs freeze dry and successfully deal damage back to Lapras. As Acast said it only has 3 switch ins: Regice / Audino / Lapras which is not about of options to beat it. Since Lapras can sometimes beat other Laprases, it can do alot when paired with a fighting type, like monferno. I believe Lapras definitely deserves b+ rank and maybe even a bottom a-.
I don't know if I'd even consider Audino a switch in. If it's taken any prior damage then Hydro Pump can 2HKO.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 177-208 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I suppose Audino can switch in to scout what move Lapras will use and then switch out to something that counters that move better, so at the very least it is better than Articuno. Speaking of Articuno, I overestimated its bulk by a LOT.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Articuno: 183-216 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
So yeah, Lapras's only real switch ins are Regice, other Lapras, and arguably Audino. I was wrong about Articuno.
I agree with a nomination of Lapras to A-/B+. It's choice specs set is hard to switch into. Just look at some of these calcs where Lapras is taking super effective hits from top tier pokemon...
Zebstrika
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 289-343 (67 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Surf/Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zebstrika: 262-310 (90 - 106.5%) -- 100% chance to OHKO after 1 round of Life Orb
Contrary Servine
252+ SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 296-350 (68.6 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Servine: 306-362 (117.2 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Choice Banded & Choice Specs Floatzel
252+ SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hidden Power Electric vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 170-200 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Focus Blast vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 338-398 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Return vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 173-204 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Brick Break vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 254-300 (58.9 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Floatzel: 486-572 (156.2 - 183.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Raichu
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Thunderbolt vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 312-369 (72.3 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Focus Blast vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 278-328 (64.5 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raichu: 217-256 (83.1 - 98%) -- 56.3% to OHKO after 1 round of Life Orb
Eviolite Monferno
252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 372-438 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 408-482 (151.6 - 179.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Defensive & Offensive Roselia
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 206-246 (67.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Roselia Giga Drain vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 168-200 (38.9 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Roselia Leaf Storm vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 408-480 (94.6 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Ice Beam vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Roselia: 290-344 (115.5 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gorebyss AFTER a Shell Smash with SR
+2 252+ SpA Gorebyss Hidden Power Grass vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 274-324 (63.5 - 75.1%) -- Still Cannot OHKO after Stealth Rocks
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gorebyss: 356-422 (141.8 - 168.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now that maybe just some of its noteworthy calcs, but that is always save that last calc without any hazards up and with full health. It is essential for a team that is using Lapras to have both a hazard remover, a healing wisher and a slow u-turn/volt switch/baton passer It can be sometimes hard to make a team that centers on these premises, but once you do, its quite easy to ladder on. I easily got to the 1300's with Lapras putting in a majority of the work. Here is just one of those replays. (This match was played somewhere in the 1250's)
Lapras, while nowhere near as effective, can run other sets as well, increasing its versatility. These sets include but are not limited to: a Curse Shell Armor Set, A Rain Dance Hydration set, A Perish Trapper set, A Dragon Dance Set, and my personal favorite, A Zoom Lens set. Here's a paste bin for some of these sets.
Lapras also synergizes well with teammates. Vibrava for instance defogs sr away for lapras, draws in electric and rock type moves for it, and can slow u-turn into Lapras, while Lapras can take ice type hits with ease. Lapras also synergizes well with Mr. Mime, as it 4 times resistant to fighting 4x and can pull off one of the tiers fastest healing wishes so lapras can sustain its health.
It may be reliant on team support, but Lapras is one of the few wall breakers in the tier that can take some of the tiers best SE hits against, which prompts for it to get a VR raise from B to A-/B+.
Cacturne from A+ to S
Simipour from A to A-
Swanna from A to A-
Simisage from A- to B+
Rapidash from B+ to A-
Lapras from B to B+
Prinplup from B to B+
Trapinch from C+ to B-
Venipede from C+ to C
Swalot from C- to E
Lampent from D to unlisted
Monferno to A-
I am not saying monferno isn't a great wall breaker in PU, because it is, but it gets outspeeded by so many very common threats such as floatzel and mr.mime, which both can OHKO if monferno isn't running eviolite, monferno just doesn't have the sheer power or speed to be rated as high as some of the other A+ pokes
Gigalith to D
While Gigalith isn't going to outspeed anything anytime soon, I believe it has the physical attributes to stay out of the E rank. It doesn't have the best typing, but it doesn't have as any 4 times weaknesses like golem does
Stoutland to A+
Stoutland is an amazing wall break/revenge killer, but I don't see it being in the same class as cacturne or floatzel. If its running choice scarf, it outspeeds the entire unboosted tier, but it loosed the amazing wall breaking capabilities. And if its running life orb or more, commonly choice band, it gets outspeed by almost all offensive pokes, and has a lack of any priority like cacturne. I am not saying that stoutland is not a great poke, but I don't think it is worth the S tier it gets.
Quilladin to B+
While it does have some great physical bulk, I don't think it can tank too many special hits from common pokes such as mr.mime and ice beam floatzel, and it lacks any sort of offensive presence. It does make a good physical wall, but frankly, golem can do everything quilladin can do better, if ur willing to have rocks instead of spikes.
Btw magnemite, Love How u gave RegiKickass(Regigigas) the respect it deserves :)
CluelessSKB after reading your post I'd highly suggest lurking more in the forum or in the PU room because all you've done is made 4 uneducated and incorrect assertions that don't actually contribute to the VR process at all.
Monferno to A-
I am not saying monferno isn't a great wall breaker in PU, because it is, but it gets outspeeded by so many very common threats such as floatzel and mr.mime, which both can OHKO if monferno isn't running eviolite, monferno just doesn't have the sheer power or speed to be rated as high as some of the other A+ pokes
Why is it noteworthy that Monferno is outsped by faster Pokemon with super effective STAB? This same point is true of literally any Pokemon. Following this logic, Rayquaza wouldn't be a good Pokemon in PU because it's outsped and OHKOed by Floatzel.
The reason that Monferno is the highest ranked Pokemon in the A+ category isn't even slightly related to its sheer power or speed, you've missed the mark here.
Monferno is good because it has excellent typing, and the ability to run a large variety of viable sets whilst also compressing a large number of offensive roles into a single slot. Monferno has access to Swords Dance, priority, U-turn, and moves to hit would-be counters (such as Thunder Punch for Pelipper) as well as also posessing good bulk when coupled with Eviolite that allows it to check common threats to bulky offense teams such as Cacturne and Pawniard.
Monferno has had the highest usage percentage of any Pokemon in the entirety of the PU open, leading in usage in every single round except for round 4 by more than 10%. Monferno is the highest ranked non-S rank Pokemon in the entirety of PU, and arguably holds the metagame together more than any other single Pokemon does. If you're to suggest it drop 2 whole subranks, you should first know what it's supposed to to in the tier (its not meant to be a wallbreaker as you specified) and then identify why it's not performing this role to the level that its subrank suggests.
Gigalith to D
While Gigalith isn't going to outspeed anything anytime soon, I believe it has the physical attributes to stay out of the E rank. It doesn't have the best typing, but it doesn't have as any 4 times weaknesses like golem does
With this nomination, you didn't even list a single thing that Gigalith does well, you simply stated that it's like Golem because it also happens to be a Rock-type with Sturdy. However, this is exactly why Gigalith is E rank, because it is entirely outclassed by Golem in every regard. Golem not only hits a much better speed tier, but also has access to priority. Golem also has Ground typing which is not only used to block Electric attacks, but also means that Golem takes less from Stealth Rock upon switchin, even allowing it to restore its useful Sturdy ability when paired with Leftovers. If you look at anything Gigalith can do, Golem will do it better.
Stoutland to A+
Stoutland is an amazing wall break/revenge killer, but I don't see it being in the same class as cacturne or floatzel. If its running choice scarf, it outspeeds the entire unboosted tier, but it loosed the amazing wall breaking capabilities. And if its running life orb or more, commonly choice band, it gets outspeed by almost all offensive pokes, and has a lack of any priority like cacturne. I am not saying that stoutland is not a great poke, but I don't think it is worth the S tier it gets.
This nomination is the one that goes to show just how much you've missed the point on all of these because you're nominating Stoutland for A+, when it's already in A+. Regardless, to nitpick a few points, Choice Scarf Stoutland isn't ever mentionworthy and definitely doesn't strengthen your argument. Secondly, you list the fact that it gets outsped and OHKOed by some offensive Pokemon when running a Choice Band. I can go back to my point about Monferno 'Why is it noteworthy that Stoutland is outsped by faster Pokemon with super effective STAB? This same point is true of literally any Pokemon. Following this logic, Rayquaza wouldn't be a good Pokemon in PU because it's outsped and OHKOed by Floatzel' Not only that, but Stoutland actually possesses impressive mixed bulk and is able to stomach many attacks from offensive Pokemon such as Floatzel's Hydro Pump, Simisear's Fire Blast, or Golem's Earthquake. One of the reasons that Stoutland is so good is because its an incredibly powerful and threatening wallbreaker that also has excellent bulk to be able to take a large variety of hits.
Quilladin to B+
While it does have some great physical bulk, I don't think it can tank too many special hits from common pokes such as mr.mime and ice beam floatzel, and it lacks any sort of offensive presence. It does make a good physical wall, but frankly, golem can do everything quilladin can do better, if ur willing to have rocks instead of spikes.
I'm not even going to go over why a physical Grass wall being taken down by an Ice Beam isn't relevant, but apart from that 'Golem can do everything Quilladin can do better if ur willing to have rocks instead of spikes' is just an awful argument on a massive number of levels. Firstly, Quilladin checks physical Water- or Ground-types, something that Golem doesn't. Secondly, Spikes are a completely different hazard to Stealth Rock, you can't liken them like this. Thirdly, don't liken a primarly offensive Rock-type Stealth Rocker, to a physically defensive Grass-type Spiker. If you can't see the large differences between the two just on a basic level, then you shouldn't be commenting on the VR at all.
tl;dr: lurk more. You're not actually helping the VR process by posting uneducated and unfounded opinions. Spend time to learn more about the tier before you post stuff like this in the VR to save not only your own time, but everyone elses too.
CluelessSKB after reading your post I'd highly suggest lurking more in the forum or in the PU room because all you've done is made 4 uneducated and incorrect assertions that don't actually contribute to the VR process at all.
Monferno isn't a wallbreaker
Why is it noteworthy that Monferno is outsped by faster Pokemon with super effective STAB? This same point is true of literally any Pokemon. Following this logic, Rayquaza wouldn't be a good Pokemon in PU because it's outsped and OHKOed by Floatzel.
The reason that Monferno is the highest ranked Pokemon in the A+ category isn't even slightly related to its sheer power or speed, you've missed the mark here.
Monferno is good because it has excellent typing, and the ability to run a large variety of viable sets whilst also compressing a large number of offensive roles into a single slot. Monferno has access to Swords Dance, priority, U-turn, and moves to hit would-be counters (such as Thunder Punch for Pelipper) as well as also posessing good bulk when coupled with Eviolite that allows it to check common threats to bulky offense teams such as Cacturne and Pawniard.
Monferno has had the highest usage percentage of any Pokemon in the entirety of the PU open, leading in usage in every single round except for round 4 by more than 10%. Monferno is the highest ranked non-S rank Pokemon in the entirety of PU, and arguably holds the metagame together more than any other single Pokemon does. If you're to suggest it drop 2 whole subranks, you should first know what it's supposed to to in the tier (its not meant to be a wallbreaker as you specified) and then identify why it's not performing this role to the level that its subrank suggests.
With this nomination, you didn't even list a single thing that Gigalith does well, you simply stated that it's like Golem because it also happens to be a Rock-type with Sturdy. However, this is exactly why Gigalith is E rank, because it is entirely outclassed by Golem in every regard. Golem not only hits a much better speed tier, but also has access to priority. Golem also has Ground typing which is not only used to block Electric attacks, but also means that Golem takes less from Stealth Rock upon switchin, even allowing it to restore its useful Sturdy ability when paired with Leftovers. If you look at anything Gigalith can do, Golem will do it better.
This nomination is the one that goes to show just how much you've missed the point on all of these because you're nominating Stoutland for A+, when it's already in A+. Regardless, to nitpick a few points, Choice Scarf Stoutland isn't ever mentionworthy and definitely doesn't strengthen your argument. Secondly, you list the fact that it gets outsped and OHKOed by some offensive Pokemon when running a Choice Band. I can go back to my point about Monferno 'Why is it noteworthy that Stoutland is outsped by faster Pokemon with super effective STAB? This same point is true of literally any Pokemon. Following this logic, Rayquaza wouldn't be a good Pokemon in PU because it's outsped and OHKOed by Floatzel' Not only that, but Stoutland actually possesses impressive mixed bulk and is able to stomach many attacks from offensive Pokemon such as Floatzel's Hydro Pump, Simisear's Fire Blast, or Golem's Earthquake. One of the reasons that Stoutland is so good is because its an incredibly powerful and threatening wallbreaker that also has excellent bulk to be able to take a large variety of hits.
I'm not even going to go over why a physical Grass wall being taken down by an Ice Beam isn't relevant, but apart from that 'Golem can do everything Quilladin can do better if ur willing to have rocks instead of spikes' is just an awful argument on a massive number of levels. Firstly, Quilladin checks physical Water-types, something that Golem doesn't. Secondly, Spikes are a completely different hazard to Stealth Rock that are completely different, you can't liken them like this. Thirdly, don't liken a primarly offensive Rock-type Stealth Rocker, to a physically defensive Grass-type Spiker. If you can't see the large differences between the two just on a basic level, then you shouldn't be commenting on the VR at all.
tl;dr: lurk more. You're not actually helping the VR process by posting uneducated and unfounded opinions. Spend time to learn more about the tier before you post stuff like this in the VR to save not only your own time, but everyone elses too.
I would like to point out that you were right in the fact that I was not detailed enough, which I should be. But, that does not dismiss any of my facts,
pertaining to monferno, You asked me to explain the drop, which I will(btw, the A- was a mistake, I meant A, My bad)
It is a great poke, no doubt, but like I said earlier, it has too many checks to it too be a dominant A+ force, it gets taking out by pretty much anything faster than it, and it doesn't have the sheer power to beat some of the bulkier pokemon. Monferno is an overrated pokemon in my opinion, while you may disagree. It is a dominant force no doubt, but in my opinion, it requires too much team support and has too many checks to be an A+ pokemon
And about the stoutland, I did read the forum wrong, and I am very sorry for that, stoutland is an A+pokemon,
And about gigalith, I wasn't trying to be descriptive, I just was explaining how it has good attributes to move up, but I can describe if u want me too
Gigalith has a massive attack and defense, and has a passible special defense. This makes it a great stealth rock setter or even physical wall if u want to do that also. The reason I compared it to golemo is because they have a similar role. I'm not going to go as far as to say gigalith outclasses golem, but I will say that gigalith is worth more than the lousy unranked tier it gets. And what priority does golem have access to?
And finally, quilladin
Quilladin cant wall many water pokes, in which most carry ice beam, which is usually a 2HKO. So what real niche does quilladin have? when it has barely any offensive presence and gets outclassed by a lot of other defensive walls in the tier. Quilladin is a strong physical wall, no doubt about that, but it is easy setup fodder and quite weak if eviolite gets knocked off by knock off, which is very common in PU. I am giving it a B+ ranking which is still a good ranking no doubt , I'm just saying that in my experience it has not been useful enough to be in the A- ranking
Btw, thx for the feedback, I'm not perfect. Take care :)
