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PrivateJoker Jolly Gyarados has a very defined niche in that it's fast enough to get a Sub up before Absol and Moltres can burn it, which is something Adamant Gyarados can't do (not really a coincidence that those two were like public enemy #1 and #2 for my Gyarados team). Unfortunately, for Singles at least, Gyarados's stat spread is just too thin to try taking advantage of that--the power loss from forgoing Adamant prevents you from OHKOing (Wisp + potential Infiltrator) Chandelure4 without any boosts, so you're... not really trading up that much heh, and you also won't have the EVs to spare to shoot for any proper bulk targets. As far as I can tell, in singles it's go Adamant or go home for the added initial power alone. In rotations, though, the faster Sub might be "enough" to enable more Dragon Dances to make up for the power loss, and Sub is so broken there that a faster Sub is always good, but I'm really not a rotations expert.
Plaak nice streak, but I'm sorry to say that it won't be leaderboard eligible because hacked Pokemon aren't allowed and legal Wish Chansey with decent stats for all intents and purposes don't exist :/ (only distributed at a brief one-off in-life event in gen III before RNG abuse existed, so the odds of even one of those Chansey hatching with competitive stats are nonexistent, let alone of said Chansey still existing today + showing up in this thread... and with a strong Pokemon like that enforcing the "no hacks" rule is p. important, because I sure would have liked to be able to use it too. With those minuscule odds of a legal Wish Chansey existing at all, this is one of the very few cases where "guilty until proven innocent" is appropriate, and "prove innocent" is not really possible here). I recognise that this must suck for you too, because you probably were given that Chansey by someone else and weren't aware of Wish Chansey's dubious legitimacy in general, but yeah... Some people have been wondering what Wish Chansey would be capable of though, so it's still good for discussion if nothing else :V So on that note still a nice streak number though, the lack of Substitute strikes me as a bit odd though with how broken the move is in rotations in general and because it'd help a lot with OHKO moves and Confuse Ray. Also, on the subject of Tyrantrum4, it might be wise to EV Charizard (and maybe Feraligatr too) to outspeed it, Charizard can run an EV spread of 252 HP / 132 Atk / 124 Spe Adamant to OHKO it with unboosted Dragon Claw and outspeed Jolteon at +1, and the initial power loss shouldn't be too significant because lol Charizard X.
edit: and sniped on the chansey thing it appears heh
...regardless, we're here...time to celebrate...by mass planting Starf berry trees.
Once I've registered an Archive.org account and figured out how the process works, I'll get to work getting this thread archived.
EDIT: Nevermind, there's one big hurdle preventing me from carrying this plan out. As a series of web pages, this thread would be stored under Archive's Wayback Machine. Unfortunately, as stated in the FAQ:
Do you collect all the sites on the Web?
No, the Archive collects web pages that are publicly available. We do not archive pages that require a password to access, pages that are only accessible when a person types into and sends a form, or pages on secure servers. Pages may not be archived due to robots exclusions and some sites are excluded by direct site owner request.
PrivateJoker Jolly Gyarados has a very defined niche in that it's fast enough to get a Sub up before Absol and Moltres can burn it, which is something Adamant Gyarados can't do (not really a coincidence that those two were like public enemy #1 and #2 for my Gyarados team). Unfortunately, for Singles at least, Gyarados's stat spread is just too thin to try taking advantage of that--the power loss from forgoing Adamant prevents you from OHKOing (Wisp + potential Infiltrator) Chandelure4 without any boosts, so you're... not really trading up that much heh, and you also won't have the EVs to spare to shoot for any proper bulk targets. As far as I can tell, in singles it's go Adamant or go home for the added initial power alone. In rotations, though, the faster Sub might be "enough" to enable more Dragon Dances to make up for the power loss, and Sub is so broken there that a faster Sub is always good, but I'm really not a rotations expert.
Plaak nice streak, but I'm sorry to say that it won't be leaderboard eligible because hacked Pokemon aren't allowed and legal Wish Chansey with decent stats for all intents and purposes don't exist :/ (only distributed at a brief one-off in-life event in gen III before RNG abuse existed, so the odds of even one of those Chansey hatching with competitive stats are nonexistent, let alone of said Chansey still existing today + showing up in this thread... and with a strong Pokemon like that enforcing the "no hacks" rule is p. important, because I sure would have liked to be able to use it too. With those minuscule odds of a legal Wish Chansey existing at all, this is one of the very few cases where "guilty until proven innocent" is appropriate, and "prove innocent" is not really possible here). I recognise that this must suck for you too, because you probably were given that Chansey by someone else and weren't aware of Wish Chansey's dubious legitimacy in general, but yeah... Some people have been wondering what Wish Chansey would be capable of though, so it's still good for discussion if nothing else :V So on that note still a nice streak number though, the lack of Substitute strikes me as a bit odd though with how broken the move is in rotations in general and because it'd help a lot with OHKO moves and Confuse Ray. Also, on the subject of Tyrantrum4, it might be wise to EV Charizard (and maybe Feraligatr too) to outspeed it, Charizard can run an EV spread of 252 HP / 132 Atk / 124 Spe Adamant to OHKO it with unboosted Dragon Claw and outspeed Jolteon at +1, and the initial power loss shouldn't be too significant because lol Charizard X.
edit: and sniped on the chansey thing it appears heh
Hey guys, I'm thinking of using Mega Charizard X as a set up sweeper in Super Rotation. Should I focus more on bulk or just full out attack? Any suggestions on natures, ev spread, and moveset? I thought I'd go with Adamant nature with the moveset DD, Sub, Flare Blitz, Dragon Claw. Still pondering about the ev spread. What do you guys think? Very much appreciate the input :)
Hey guys, I'm thinking of using Mega Charizard X as a set up sweeper in Super Rotation. Should I focus more on bulk or just full out attack? Any suggestions on natures, ev spread, and moveset? I thought I'd go with Adamant nature with the moveset DD, Sub, Flare Blitz, Dragon Claw. Still pondering about the ev spread. What do you guys think? Very much appreciate the input :)
252 HP / 132 Atk / 124 Spe (the EV spread plumberjack literally just posted for a mega charizard x super rotations set, lol) should work great. Plenty of bulk to have opportunities to dragon dance, and once you've danced a couple times, the slightly less invested attack/speed won't matter at all. Max HP investment also lands mega charizard x on a perfect number for substitute, as well.
Thinking of running a Rotations team based around a bulky Tailwind and Wish user (Togekiss) supporting a ridiculously powerful physical and special attacker. Firstly, does this sound like a good idea? Or are setup sweepers generally seen as superior in Rotations?
Anyway, the planned team is Togekiss / Mega Mawile / Chandelure / Hydreigon. I think I'm right in saying that, with an effective base 210 (?) Attack with Huge Power, Mega Mawile has the highest attacking stat of any Pokemon legal in the Maison? Would I be correct there? After that, with the mega slot used up, Chandelure is the Pokemon with the highest available special attack stat (tied with Thundurus-T but that doesn't benefit from Tailwind as much and it'd be a pain to find a modest one). I was going to run Specs on Chandelure for extra power along with Trick for stall teams and the like. Hydreigon is another powerful attacker who has the added benefit of being a backup Tailwind user. I also think the team synergy is pretty solid there.
A while back I posted about using a mono-water team in triples. I thought I'd post an update. I've grown a bit disinterested in the maison since my big triples streak but the streak is on going.
I'm leaderboard worthy with 161 wins and counting.
The team is clawitzer/poliwag/jellicent/lapras/mega slowbro/gastrodon for anyone interested in what I'm up to.
It runs similarly to the lvl 1 aron trick room teams except with a lvl 1 poliwag instead
Thinking of running a Rotations team based around a bulky Tailwind and Wish user (Togekiss) supporting a ridiculously powerful physical and special attacker. Firstly, does this sound like a good idea? Or are setup sweepers generally seen as superior in Rotations?
Anyway, the planned team is Togekiss / Mega Mawile / Chandelure / Hydreigon. I think I'm right in saying that, with an effective base 210 (?) Attack with Huge Power, Mega Mawile has the highest attacking stat of any Pokemon legal in the Maison? Would I be correct there? After that, with the mega slot used up, Chandelure is the Pokemon with the highest available special attack stat (tied with Thundurus-T but that doesn't benefit from Tailwind as much and it'd be a pain to find a modest one). I was going to run Specs on Chandelure for extra power along with Trick for stall teams and the like. Hydreigon is another powerful attacker who has the added benefit of being a backup Tailwind user. I also think the team synergy is pretty solid there.
Play Rough has 90% accuracy which means somewhere, somehow still the line, it will miss when you absolutely, absolutely need it to hit. That and its low defenses what holding Mawile back from top level Maison play
Play Rough has 90% accuracy which means somewhere, somehow still the line, it will miss when you absolutely, absolutely need it to hit. That and its low defenses what holding Mawile back from top level Maison play
You kinda want to make me take my fancy TR Sheer Cold/Super Fang/ResTalk Walrein for another spin, except as the actual sixth 'mon on a team...or you would, if a recent spate of Friend Safaris I received wasn't keeping me away from all things Maison, for the time being.
I will ask the-community-as-a-whole, as a note for future reference: if I were to fashion my own Imperfect Walrein4, which ability would work best for it? I can see merit in all three:
- Thick Fat adds to its already impressive bulk
- Ice Body gives it additional healing on top of ResTalk when paired with Megasnow (under TR, of course)
- Oblivious makes it immune to Taunt bullshit which would shut down ResTalk
Psycho Cut, you seem to have established some good synergy with you current setup, no need to disrupt that with adding Haxorus and having two Dragons. I absolutely would give Megawile a spin, if it hasn't achieved the Maison success it should have by now, maybe you can give it a good showing here!
Psycho Cut, you seem to have established some good synergy with you current setup, no need to disrupt that with adding Haxorus and having two Dragons. I absolutely would give Megawile a spin, if it hasn't achieved the Maison success it should have by now, maybe you can give it a good showing here!
That may have to be challenge accepted. I do still need to get the trophy so I'll try and get to 50 with it and see how it's doing, then make a decision as to whether it's worth using for a longer streak.
Speaking of Walrein, I haven't tried this yet, but how would the Walrein4 set function in the Maison? It's just a thought that popped in my head as I was facing one. Would it work ok or would it be too luck based to do anything?
Speaking of Walrein, I haven't tried this yet, but how would the Walrein4 set function in the Maison? It's just a thought that popped in my head as I was facing one. Would it work ok or would it be too luck based to do anything?
My guess is that Walrein would only hit with Fissure and Shear Cold 30% of the time unlike the one in the Maison xDD. If you do give it a try however let us know how it goes as the results would be interesting.
Hi, it's my first time posting here, but I found this thread when I got curious how everyone else was doing because I had a decent streak going in Super Singles. Today it ended at 280.
Proof: I'm not entirely sure how to get a battle video up and I may add it later, but I do have a screenshot.
The Team:
Kangaskhan @Kangaskhanite
Ability : Scrappy -> Parental Bond
Nature : Adamant
EVs: 252 Spe / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Gliscor Toxic Orb
Ability : Poison Heal
Nature : Impish
I can't remember Gliscor's exact EVs, but this got the right stats in a stat calculator
EVs : 252 HP / 22 Atk / 232 Def / 4 Spe
-Toxic
-Protect
-Earthquake
-Ice Fang
How I lost:
Misplayed a contrary Serperior lead. Kangaskhan Fake Out was right, but I left him in to try and finish Serperior off with Return, Serperior outsped and got the Crit for a KO. 2 shotted Blissey, who got Toxic up on first move. Gliscor couldn't protect enough times for the toxic to kill.
Please reply if you want anything changed or added.
Hi, it's my first time posting here, but I found this thread when I got curious how everyone else was doing because I had a decent streak going in Super Singles. Today it ended at 280.
Proof: I'm not entirely sure how to get a battle video up and I may add it later, but I do have a screenshot. View attachment 67767
The Team:
Kangaskhan @Kangaskhanite
Ability : Scrappy -> Parental Bond
Nature : Adamant
EVs: 252 Spe / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Gliscor Toxic Orb
Ability : Poison Heal
Nature : Impish
I can't remember Gliscor's exact EVs, but this got the right stats in a stat calculator
EVs : 252 HP / 22 Atk / 232 Def / 4 Spe
-Toxic
-Protect
-Earthquake
-Ice Fang
How I lost:
Misplayed a contrary Serperior lead. Kangaskhan Fake Out was right, but I left him in to try and finish Serperior off with Return, Serperior outsped and got the Crit for a KO. 2 shotted Blissey, who got Toxic up on first move. Gliscor couldn't protect enough times for the toxic to kill.
Please reply if you want anything changed or added.
I have two suggestions for you. I'd recommended switching out Flamethrower on Blissey for either Thunder Wave or Minimize for more stalling options. And in my opinion, Eviolite Chansey is much better than Blissey, so try that out instead. Ice Fang on Gliscor in all honesty sticks out like a sore thumb. Go with Substitute since you already said that not being able to stall enough was your Gliscor's downfall. With Sub, you'll be able to last much longer.
I have two suggestions for you. I'd recommended switching out Flamethrower on Blissey for either Thunder Wave or Minimize for more stalling options. And in my opinion, Eviolite Chansey is much better than Blissey, so try that out instead. Ice Fang on Gliscor in all honesty sticks out like a sore thumb. Go with Substitute since you already said that not being able to stall enough was your Gliscor's downfall. With Sub, you'll be able to last much longer.
Thanks for the tip. In this case substitute wouldn't have saved me, Serperior OHKO'd Gliscor before he could do anything. I really only chose Blissey over Chansey because I was basically using Blissey as a special wall and Gliscor as a physical one. Most often Blissey takes special hits so well that leftovers are better than more Spec Def, but in this case the extra Spec Def might have saved me. Will consider your tips.
Thanks for all the support while my 1k team kept punching higher and higher above its weight, I still can't believe I ever ended up topping our leaderboard. Also sorry for my absence in the thread since losing—I still read most posts, I still play, I just haven't been able to achieve anything worth posting. My initial plan honestly was to make my 2k in the maison thread as well, but I haven't been able to strike the proper balance of form and non-idiocy—but rest assured, you guys haven't seen the last of me yet...
No, this is not what I was brooding on. That one's still ~hopefully~ to follow at some later point, but for whatever reason, two weeks ago, after not touching the Maison for over a month and playing Zelda / Ace Attorney instead, a side project I'm working on inspired me to return to an old team. And "form" was there pretty quick. Definitely had to do with the Maison break that I had been having. Probably also just had to do with the nostalgia rush. Figuring out a way to beat public enemy #1 in situations that, up to that point, I considered an auto-loss sure didn't dampen my spirits either. But mostly, it was due to that ninja frog, that steel bug, and that flying scorp wanting to show that... they're really not that awful.
#1000: D9KW-WWWW-WW4M-M3PE
Lead Greninja (as well as Mega Scizor) has its 1k. Not a lot has changed in the lead Greninja record department in the past eighteen months, though, since my first attempt with this team, unless Jumpman's Greninja / Mega Salamence / Gastrodon has reached good-but-not-postworthy heights, which only he would know. With special attacking leads in general, NoCheese's Landorus / Mega Slowbro / Chansey (which doesn't have a record posted) has been doing work, but as for lead Greninja, no significant new teams have popped up, and atsync's Greninja / Ferrothorn / Dragonite is still the second most successful one, also with a better record than last time. "Lead Starmie" teams won't ever be as good as lead setup sweeper teams because they have to overcome way more "leads" than the latter archetype, in a sense, but it feels great to be able to finally give them a four-digit streak as well.
A set that honestly shouldn't need too much explanation and mostly focuses on getting the best coverage possible and sniping leads that Scizor / Gliscor have trouble handling.
Surf over Scald might be a more surprising choice because of the latter's freeze-thawing properties, but that honestly doesn't come into play super often with this team. Greninja is the lead and therefore not the dedicated freeze absorber to begin with, and in practice, Scizor ends up being my switch-in to Ice-types anyway, since Greninja just isn't a counter to the likes of Articuno and Cryogonal. On the other hand, the power loss actually isn't entirely insignificant, with Scald potentially missing the OHKO on Excadrill and lacking Surf's chance to OHKO dumb mons like Absol4, Zoroark (hey, those are the nice whoopsies), Charizard4, Chandelure4, and Volcarona4. Especially the latter is important because Surf + Bullet Punch has a very big chance to KO Volcarona (should it use Bug Buzz over QD and have Swarm / land a crit / whatever and knock out Greninja), which Scald + Bullet Punch can't do at all, meaning Volcarona can quickly become the worst thing ever (as much as it wasn't already) should only a couple minor things go wrong. Lastly, I chose Life Orb over that other boosting item, Choice Specs, because even though the added power (and lack of LO recoil) sure is incredibly sweet (hi Togekiss, hi all of the aforementioned Surf rolls, hi Walrein, with some luck hi even shit like Heatran), the lock-in is just too much of a detriment on a lead Greninja. It's fine (and I'd definitely agree it's even preferred) on a switch option, because then you are sniping specific threats and are playing reactively, but a lead Greninja has more stuff to cover and thus is far more likely to end up in an unfavorable position as a result. Having to switch Gliscor into a Fire-type attack from a foe slower than Greninja (or just sack Scizor) because Greninja is a Grass- or Ice-type is hilarious in all the wrong ways and would not at all be an uncommon occurrence. Tl;dr, this is lead Greninja, use Surf + Life Orb, and use Scald + Specs for backup Greninja only.
One would sort of forget that this beast had never been part of a four-digit streak—that injustice has been rectified.
Largely standard set, though there's always some debate between Superpower and Roost for the final slot. I am of the opinion that Roost is the far, far superior option not only for staying at high health but also for setting up in general; a rationale "if Scizor is at +6 it doesn't matter if it's at 90% or at 30%" is understandable (actually not even that because Excadrill, Kingdra (!!), and a bunch more get stupid), but that sort of misses the point that you also have to get to that +6 in the first place, which is super easy to do even against the likes of Carracosta, Slowbro, and Bouffalant—as long as you have Roost, otherwise +2 is the best you're gonna get.
Additionally, several of the bulky Normal-types you'd want to use Superpower on (think Slaking / Snorlax) are actually rendered complete setup bait with Roost. Even most Steel-types, as far as they're not already handled by Gliscor, lose to a boosted Scizor (Magnezone is outsped and 2HKOed by +2 Bug Bite while being unable to OHKO in return, Empoleon actually loses even to an unboosted fresh Scizor); the only Steel-type (or, for that matter, Pokemon) that consistently forces out a boosted Scizor and would be defeated with Superpower is Heatran (and I guess Steelix making the right move choices), so yeah... imo don't bother trying to come up with situational reasons and just run Roost unless you're using Scizor as a lead and are asking to get donked by Magnet Pull Magnezone sooner or later.
The EV spread is really pretty generic for Maison purposes, with max Attack, 44 Speed EVs to outspeed stuff like Shiftry, Mandibuzz, and Blastoise because why not, and the rest in HP. Yes, I've always been too lazy to change those 212 HP EVs to 204 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpD ;;; Cutting Attack to run a bulkier spread is not the greatest option because having your sweep interrupted is not cool and max Attack does some cool things like:
+6 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 153-180 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 153-180 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pyroar: 162-192 (100.6 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def Darmanitan: 182-215 (101.1 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 143-168 (105.9 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 166-196 (107 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 165-194 (107.8 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 162-192 (108 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
...etc, bunch of frailer Fire-types and stuff like Manectric, Electivire, and Greninja too. You get the point.
I often wonder just how viable Scizor would be in Maison play if it were weak to Ground (and resistant to Rock) haha. It's better than Aegislash in many ways—much, much stronger, nothing immune to its priority moves, fewer weaknesses, much easier to keep at high health because of reliable recovery, faster, doesn't have to forfeit bulk in order to attack—you know the drill, as a primary sweeper Scizor pretty clearly is superior. It's just (a lot) worse at supporting Dragon Dance users. Which apparently makes the difference between one 1k+ streak and three 1k+ streaks (two of which far beyond that even). Oh well, life is unfair.
The best Pokemon in Maison singles play hands-down, with a specially defensive spread to better be able to switch into as many threats as possible.
My arguments for specially defensive over speedy used to be mainly Vaporeon4 and Latios, but that was before I realised Scizor actually outright counters Vap whoops (switch in on Signal Beam, tank Surf while setting up one SD, OHKO with Bug Bite, while Gliscor needs to waste an absolute ton of PP) and because of set 4's dumbness the Latios thing only really applies against Latios12, and speedy would help against Kingdra and Gyarados and a couple more things... but I think I still prefer specially defensive, because being slow is in and of itself useful in general for being able to maintain a Sub against more foes, and because it's just more consistent in a way. As much as more Speed arguably increases Gliscor's performance against slower attackers, it makes its performance against foes that outspeed it either way that much worse (e.g., Tornadus becomes lol, and—more importantly—Gengar can prevent being PP stalled with a not shit roll on a crit Shadow Ball, whereas it's helpless against Careful Gliscor, Gliscor gets smoked too hard even by Latios2's Draco Meteor, etc etc). It would just reduce its overall reliability in tanking hits. And with streaks of 810 and 1000+, in addition to the two 3,5k+ and the 1,5k+ ones it already has, Careful Gliscor can't honestly be that bad.
(disclaimer: ye this is mostly the same stuff I already said in the initial post about this team, it's... not like this team is suddenly better equipped to handle them as leads :[ )
889 | Gyarados4 | Careful | Chesto Berry | Dragon Dance | Aqua Tail | Earthquake | Rest | HP/SpD
One of the worst leads for this team to face, and actually the one that prompted me to switch to Marathon way back when; it boosts all over the entire team, resists or is immune to Scizor's and Gliscor's entire sets, and walls Greninja because of its massive special bulk. When facing it as a lead, the best you can do is just spam Grass Knot (opening with Dark Pulse I guess cause muh hax); if it picks its moves optimally, it'll Dragon Dance twice, outspeed Greninja after the second and use Rest, boost a third time, and KO Greninja with two Grass Knots worth of damage, which leaves it in KO range of Scizor's Bullet Punch. As I know now unlike eighteen months ago, it can be baited in attacking Greninja a lot sooner if it comes out as a second mon (since Greninja will have taken Life Orb recoil), but if it doesn't misplay in the lead position, it's gonna be a trade at best barring Grass Knot crits or other hax. Fortunately, it does screw up at times e.g. by attacking Greninja right after its second Dragon Dance or setting up a third rather than using Rest, but clearly that's not something you can count on.
857 | Gardevoir4 | Modest | Babiri Berry | Psychic | Moonblast | Focus Blast | Thunderbolt | Spd/SpA
An utter nightmare to face for a Greninja lead, with great power and special bulk and not taking super effective damage from any hit. And it's absolutely hilarious when it Traces Protean. As would make sense, Scizor is the go-to counter, but in a trollish fashion it was given Babiri Berry to avoid the OHKO from unboosted Bullet Punch. My go-to play therefore is switching to Scizor on the Moonblast, SDing once while tanking Focus Blast, and OHKOing with +2 BP. Which falls flat on its face against Protean Gardevoir, because that one would finish off Scizor with Focus Blast. In that scenario, the best play seems to be going to Scizor on the Moonblast, going to Gliscor on the Focus Blast, using Earthquake, going back to Scizor on the Moonblast, and finishing it off with BP. Though it might very well just be outright sacrificing Greninja and taking my chances 2v2, more on that in the warstories :/
891 | Kingdra4 | Modest | White Herb | Draco Meteor | Surf | Blizzard | Protect | HP/Spd/SpA
Tricky, strong, bulky, and unpredictable. I used to try dropping its stats with Draco Meteor, but since it's a little too unpredictable to do that reliably (and because Sniper crits still laugh in your face), I usually just open with Grass Knot. Since Draco Meteor just barely misses the KO on Greninja, it tends to open with Protect, which allows Grass-type Greninja to bait the Blizzard and easily 2HKO it with Ice Beam. It can quickly get dumb and blow huge hole in my team though if it does decide to attack. This is really a Pokemon that requires me to have both Greninja at full health and Scizor reasonably healthy to take on properly :/
853 | Aerodactyl4 | Jolly | Choice Band | Stone Edge | Aerial Ace | Earthquake | Crunch | Atk/Spd
OHKOes Greninja before it can move, and
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 212 HP / 36 Def Gliscor: 88-105 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
makes Sub / Protect stalling a tall order. Sadly... since it can crit OHKO non-Mega Scizor too, very sadly going to Gliscor is indeed the best play here, and spamming Protect then is the way to go. Between the odds of a double Protect and Stone Edge's miss chance the odds of Gliscor surviving actually aren't half bad, but under normal circumstances, Gliscor will sacrifice itself to get rid of the Stone Edge PP. That allows Scizor to Mega Evolve and set up to +6 while Aero Struggles to death, which generally is enough to sweep (also see the calcs of those Bullet Punch OHKOs on the frail Fire-types); even if it crit OHKOes Gliscor before running out of PP, Scizor can just Mega Evolve and Roost stall the final couple Stone Edges. Therefore, I've never lost to Aero (yet), but clearly it has the potential to blow a huge hole into my team and potentially allow bad backups to screw me over.
744 | Empoleon4 | Calm | Petaya Berry | Surf | Substitute | Blizzard | Whirlpool | HP/SpA
Loses when it comes out against Gliscor or a fresh or boosted Scizor, but one of the trickiest leads to play around. The "correct" play seems to be Grass Knot on turn 1 (it will Surf or Sub) -> go to Scizor (it will Sub or Blizzard) -> set up one SD -> Roost (spam until it does set up a Sub if applicable) -> 2HKO through its Sub. Clearly kinda hax prone, but otherwise it works reasonably well without blowing huge holes into my team.
935 | Regice2 | Timid | Chesto Berry | Thunderbolt | Icy Wind | Ice Beam | Rest | HP/Def/Spd
Any lead Regice warrants an immediate switch to Gliscor because of the threat of their Electric moves or Focus Blasts. If only the AI didn't have this huge preference for speed control moves if they can't OHKO the lead, because this one pretty much always uses Icy Wind on the switch to Gliscor. Gliscor actually survives this because it's brutal (HUGE argument in favour of Careful Gliscor right here), but it forces me to go to Scizor immediately, SD once, Roost probably, and OHKO it with +2 BP. If Scizor gets hit by Icy Wind (guaranteeing Thunderbolt), I can also go back to Gliscor a couple more times for some more PH recovery (wheee!), which actually was extremely valuable one time I faced it when the second mon was something that... I don't recall but forced out Scizor and was supposed to be handled by Gliscor, so it was probably Zapdos1 or Entei1. And naturally there's always the threat of Ice Beam freezes (good thing it prefers TBolt when Scizor is out) and Thunderbolt paralyses, so ye not fun to face. It's not a super major threat by any means, but it is one that saps away a lot of momentum right away and can be trouble in combination with bad backups. Unfortunately, though, this is the one threat (alongside Articuno2) that requires me to keep Scizor alive against Veterans. It was absolutely hilarious when I was facing it once and thought "huh, good thing I've never gotten smacked with an Ice Beam freeze on the switch to Scizor here, because I think I'd probably just lose then" about three seconds before I got smacked with an Ice Beam freeze on the switch back to Gliscor and thought I'd probably just lose—fortunately Scizor thawed out right away heh.
Situational threats include the usual stuff like fast Fire-types coming out on a Grass- or Ice-type Greninja (looking at you, Darm4), stuff like Togekiss where I have to rely on rolls, and freezing / OHKO-using Ice-types in general like Articuno and Cryogonal.
General playstyle is straightforward; if Scizor or Gliscor can reliably set up on the lead, do it (potentially also while PP stalling a dangerous move with Gliscor), if they cannot and Greninja can one-shot the lead, do that, and otherwise get creative. I'll also be updating my lead notes soon hopefully—they actually were pretty helpful in figuring the team back out after all those months haha, but some things in there made me want to punch my eighteen months younger self, like sniping Tangrowth with Ice Beam while Scizor sets up on it easily and Lax Incense is a thing (lol TDP what in the world were you thinking???) Some of the remaining open spots (like Exploud4, just 2HKO with Surf because Greninja survives FB + 2 rounds of LO recoil and getting cuter just isn't feasible with its power + unpredictability + Sub-bypassing Hyper Voice) have also been figured out, so wooo.
I whipped out my 3DS on the train to continue my run a bit on my way to school—I was at 215 then, and battle 216 went something like this:
- lead Rhyperior, Grass Knot KO;
- second mon Hydreigon, Ice Beam KO;
- third mon Gyarados... click Grass Knot, Gyarados uses DD;
- Grass Knot again, Gyarados uses DD;
- Gyarados uses Rest, Grass Knot again;
- Gyarados KOes Greninja with Aqua Tail;
- Gyarados 2HKOes Scizor while Bug Bite + Bullet Punch doesn't KO;
- Gyarados KOes Gliscor with Aqua Tail.
...alright, what just happened. My archnemesis rearing its ugly head and playing the battle perfectly—not a thing I could have done. "Spam GK" tends to work in the lead position because then it boosts one step further, allowing it to be brought in BP's KO range, which didn't happen here. This calc I ran later was especially saddening:
+2 0 Atk Gyarados Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 84-99 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(84, 84, 85, 87, 87, 88, 90, 90, 91, 93, 93, 94, 96, 96, 97, 99)
Uninvested lv. 50 Greninja has 147 HP. It took two rounds of LO recoil while KOing Rhyperior and Hydreigon and took three more while spamming GK against Gyarados. One round of LO recoil takes away 14 HP, so Greninja had 77 HP remaining at this point and therefore was in Gyarados's +2 Aqua Tail KO range, which it'll use right after Rest—not before, because then the KO isn't secure yet. Two very costly prior rounds of Life Orb recoil here. Meaning...
I'll always lose if a third poke Gyarados comes out after Greninja KOes the first two Pokemon.
The "thirdmon Gyarados4 problem"; in short, five rounds of Life Orb recoil putting Greninja in +2 Gyarados's guaranteed resisted Aqua Tail KO range, which in an actual battle translates to a thirdmon Gyarados KOing Greninja right after it Rests at +2, which makes it unbeatable for Scizor and Gliscor too. Essentially a guaranteed loss against any Gyarados4 showing up as a thirdmon after Greninja KOes the first two foes, which is... something that's just not supposed to exist if you have any serious intentions of shooting for 1k. I had already started the run as part of that side project-induced nostalgia rush before I figured out how to handle thirdmon Gyarados, but it came to mind even before I was like a hundred battles in. I didn't actually think it out like this, it pretty much suddenly clicked as a brainwave when I was biking to the mall in order to (iirc) collect an Arceus code and I rationalised it later, but:
> "the problem clearly is not Gyarados being too strong for Greninja, but instead Gyarados boosting too much before it feels comfortable finishing Greninja off; in a way, the problem is actually Gyarados being too weak for Greninja, lol"
< "sounds like Gyarados attacking Greninja quicker would solve the problem, just make it easier to KO"
i.e., Gyarados having a guaranteed KO with neutral +1 Aqua Tail after two rounds of Life Orb recoil.
In practice: use Dark Pulse first; Gyarados flinches or will try KOing Greninja with Aqua Tail rather than set up a second DD; Greninja is still faster, so use Grass Knot and actually tank the Aqua Tail; finish it off while laughing. I guess there's still the chance of Gyarados setting up that second DD after all in order to gain the Speed advantage, but I had this one battle vid where I could pretty consistently have secondmon Gyarados come out on Greninja after it KOes the lead (which is for our purposes here equivalent to the thirdmon scenario), and in like fifteen mock battles, every single time it opted for attacking Greninja at +1 over setting up a second Dragon Dance. Plus, it's not like I had any better options available anyways lmao. Against lead Gyarados, Greninja will have incurred only one round of Life Orb recoil when Gyarados is at +1, so that one can still go die in a fire, but it looked like the matchups against second- and thirdmon Gyarados just became a heck of a lot easier. No fast Gliscor, no Thief Scizor, no HP Electric Greninja required, just good old Protean abuse. It really was that simple all along; maybe I just didn't see it because I swear by avoiding Protean abuse as much as possible (if Greninja can't OHKO a foe it should ideally just switch out), though this is clearly one of the select situations where it is warranted. Thirdmon Gyarados4 makes lead Garchomp4 look like a Luvdisc.
And seeing as all my prior losses with this team that I recalled (except one where I got haxed to hell and back by lead Gardevoir4) were indeed either to clear misplays or to thirdmon Gyarados, that 810 dinosaur suddenly wasn't looking that much like a crazy fluke anymore after all. The psychological stars aligned perfectly for a now-or-never run towards 1k with lead Greninja, and the rest is history. I still don't know if this Gyarados plan is 100% guaranteed to succeed, but that doesn't take anything away from the three or four times it saved my streak on my way to 1k.
Here's a couple battle vids too! One battle that I totally should have lost if the universe were fair at all and I'm still confused at with how I pulled that one through (#526), and two that felt less heroic but were extremely close to going the wrong way because of a singular instance of hax + bad matchups.
#526: X4YW-WWWW-WW4L-EHJF
My matchup against Chef Cobb isn't terrific, and neither is my matchup against lead Cryogonal. Clearly, switching Scizor headfirst into a Sheer Cold hit on turn 1 didn't help my case much either, and I pretty much feel as if I've already lost at that point. I don't know if using Scizor as my Cryogonal counter is the real optimal play (set 4 freezing Scizor is a risk too), but Scizor is my only Pokemon that actually consistently beats it barring hax :/ Either way, so I go to Greninja. I use Surf for ~50%, it misses Icy Wind. The only true hax that went my way, but it 100% won me the game in hindsight. Greninja barely misses the KO with a second Surf (chance to 2HKO with Surf is like 55% rip), Cryogonal uses Blizzard, and Greninja finishes it off with Dark Pulse (why I clicked that move I don't know, probably to lure out Water-types to smash with GK but then I have no idea why I wouldn't click Ice Beam instead) and comes out on top with 51/147 HP. Second mon: Kingdra4.
Now, Kingdra4 is one of the like four Pokemon I'm most terrified of in the lead position (alongside Gardevoir4 / Gyarados4 / Aerodactyl4). When it leads, I used to get cute and try fishing for Meteor SpA drops through switch-stalling, but especially with Sniper crits that can get pretty risky, so these days I usually just say fuck it and open with Grass Knot. If Kingdra opens with Protect (which it does in the VAST majority of cases, because Meteor caps at 98%) I just laugh and 2HKO it with Ice Beam while tanking a resisted Blizzard that can't even freeze me. In the rare event that it does open with Meteor, either it gets a low roll and gets finished off by Greninja, which then dies from LO recoil as well, on the second turn, or it gets a high roll and KOes Greninja but gets finished off with Scizor's unboosted Bug Bite.
The bottom line being that I need a 100% healthy Greninja and a Scizor above 50% to handle it reliably. So this situation was kinda lol. I quickly realised that the only two ways I could possibly win this were by getting Greninja killed and Kingdra missing Blizzard as Gliscor tries to Sub or by fishing for Draco Meteor SpA drops while switch-stalling Blizzard PP. Because the former is just as moronically desperate as it sounds, I go to Gliscor; since Kingdra can KO Greninja at this point it fortunately attacks, and even more fortunately it actually picks its strongest move, Draco Meteor, over its other two unresisted moves that would kill Greninja equally stone dead. Draco Meteor obviously still really hurts, Toxic Orb activates, and Gliscor uses Protect to get 22 HP back and make it waste one Blizzard PP. I go back to Greninja to make it waste a second Blizzard, and since Greninja now resists both Surf and Blizzard, Kingdra uses Draco Meteor again on the switch back to Gliscor, lowering its Special Attack to -2. Gliscor survives the second Meteor with 18 HP and heals back to 40 through PH recovery. Protect again to make it waste its third Blizzard and get back to 62 HP, sack Greninja to its fourth Blizzard, switch Gliscor back in, and Protect on its fifth Blizzard too.
Now, since Kingdra's -2 Surf is not powerful enough to finish off an 84 HP Gliscor, it uses Protect as I was praying for, allowing Gliscor to get up a free Sub and giving me the only minuscule leash of life I could have hoped for when it was sent out. Better yet, I get into this Protect alternating loop with Kingdra where it uses Protect on the turns it's supposed to break my Sub, allowing Gliscor to get back to high health pretty smoothly, Toxic it, and take it down. Part 1 of Houdini act completed. The lastmon is... Mamoswine, which honestly could be a lot worse, since it's slower than Gliscor and therefore can (barring set 1 getting a high Ice Shard roll) be Toxic stalled down without much trouble.
Except one of those classic "lol why do I even play this game" moments happens when Toxic misses. It's not set 1, fortunately; it uses Ice Fang, so it has to be set 2 or 4. Set 4 I'd still be 100% fine with because it'd quickly stall itself down into Earthquake range through Life Orb recoil. But no Life Orb recoil happens, so it has to be set 2. Which has 20 PP worth of Ice-type moves. I have exactly 19 Sub / Protect PP left at this point, which should just barely be enough because it used it first Ice Fang PP on my Toxic. But in a sick turn of events, Gliscor being at full HP means Blizzard is not a guaranteed OHKO, so there is a chance of Mamoswine randomly using Stone Edge before running out of Ice-type move PP, in which case I almost certainly still lose after all.
Doesn't happen. Mamoswine sees nineteen Ice-type move PP go to waste to nineteen Sub / Protect PP, so in the end it comes down to Stone Edge + elevated crit rate versus Toxic + Earthquake + PH recovery. Toxic + Earthquake + PH recovery wins.
#952: YKVG-WWWW-WW4M-Q7QD
Pretty much just that one minor bit of hax with the potential to spiral out of control. Isabella leads with Latias, on which I still tend to switch in Gliscor (unlike with Latios, where I'm starting to think it's better to go to Scizor if they can have Latios4) because Latias's boosted Dragon Claw hurts less than Latios's boosted Outrage. So Gliscor takes a Draco Meteor to the face, and the lack of any item effects (and the damage output in general I guess) reveal set 3. So I Protect once because why not and then go to Scizor to Roost off the remaining three Meteors and then go back to Gliscor for an easy Sub. Scizor takes -2 Meteor on the switch in and gets knocked down to 127 HP. I Mega Evolve and click Roost, and then, in one of those not-so-hilarious "whoops" moments, Scizor takes a high-roll crit Draco Meteor to the face and outright dies. I go back to Gliscor, click Protect on the final Meteor, and get up a Sub and get back to reasonably high health as Latias Struggles to death, but in the mean time I'm pissing my pants because keeping Scizor alive against Veterans is kind of important; without Scizor, you "just lose" to Regice2, and Articuno2 also becomes incredibly hard to beat unless you've got a fair ton of PP remaining. Naturally, speaking of the devil, the second mon is Arti2. Which admittedly still is beatable to Gliscor but has fun tricks up its sleeve by randomly using Ice Shard at times before it's run out of PP for its other moves and requiring two Toxic hits to take down. The fight against Articuno actually goes about as well as one can hope for—no Toxic misses, only one random Ice Shard, and only the first Sheer Cold breaking a Sub, so Gliscor comes out on top with a reasonable amount of Sub / Protect PP remaining. The lastmon is Tornadus. Doesn't have to be bad news, because Greninja is still alive and destroys sets 1 and 4 in the blink of an eye and doesn't mind set 3 terribly either after it takes some chip damage from Toxic. So I use an immediate Toxic because it's the best thing to do in the event of set 3 and (unless it sets up a Sub, that's bad news) set 2 and it's not a problem at all if set 1 or 4 kills Gliscor because Greninja is still around. However, it is bad news, and set 2 throws up a Sub in Gliscor's face. At that point, I have eleven Sub / Protect PP remaining. Technically twelve because I'll still have that final Sub to break after I run out of PP. Which technically should be enough to stall out its ten Hurricane PP (and Gliscor doesn't really need a Sub to tank its Focus Blasts, hurrah for specially defensive again)... if only Tornadus didn't like to throw in Double Teams along the way. Which it does, but "only" three times. After I run out of Sub / Protect PP, it's used eight Hurricanes—one more is required to break my Sub, meaning Gliscor will have to take one to the face. And I can't even switch out Gliscor to reset confusion / stall for more PH recovery because I'll need Greninja alive for a bit of switch-stalling so I won't lose the PP war. However, no crit, no confusion, and Gliscor easily tanks all Focus Blasts. At that point I guess I could've gone to Greninja and KOed it with Ice Beams, but fsr I found it less tedious (and perhaps more fulfilling lol) to just stall it out of PP entirely and make it Struggle to death. Tl;dr, Gliscor is the best Pokemon ever but damn it got stretched thin here because of just a singular instance of hax + bad backups.
#1000: D9KW-WWWW-WW4M-M3PE
yes, not the greatest moment to have one of the worst nailbiters on the entire run. Getting close to 1k was as nerve wracking as the previous three times, possibly even more this time because I knew fully well it would probably be my only chance. So I was sorta happy to see Psychic Haskell be the opponent, because this team tends to have a good matchup against Psychics. With a few exceptions. Like Gardevoir. Especially Trace (i.e., Protean) Gardevoir—that really went from "this could be worse" to "uh oh" to "this could not possibly be any worse". My usual counterplay to Gardevoir4 is going to Scizor on the Moonblast, Mega Evolving, tanking the Focus Blast while setting up an SD, and OHKOing with BP, but since Mega Scizor can't tank a STAB Focus Blast in that situation, I have to try something else against Protean Gardevoir. Going to Gliscor on the Focus Blast is the logical step in that scenario—previously, I'd Sub / Protect stall Gardevoir, but that comes with two problems, namely that it drains pretty much Gliscor's entire pool of Sub / Protect PP, and that in the event of a crit on either move (or a Focus Blast Special Defense drop) Gliscor can't Sub anymore and you "just lose" until you're stupidly lucky with the backups. However, a while before, I had figured out what I considered to be the safest plan against Protean Gardevoir: go to Scizor on the Moonblast, go to Gliscor on the Focus Blast, Protect for PH recovery, use Earthquake while tanking a Moonblast, Protect for PH recovery, go back to Scizor on a second Moonblast, and KO it with BP. You'll end up without setup and with a weakened Scizor and Gliscor, but it's the least hax-susceptible play I can come up with, and it worked nicely the previous time I ran into Protean Gardevoir.
Clearly, that whole plan falls flat if Scizor doesn't take a Moonblast but a Focus Blast to the face on the switch. So yeah imagine that, on the 1000th battle with that one team archetype / lead no one has ever gotten to 1000 with and probably won't anytime soon, facing one of the worst leads possible, and that lead also using the "wrong move". I have been in more pleasant situations, to say the least. My options pretty much are either going to Gliscor and Sub / Protect stalling, but that comes with all the aforementioned problems, or just using an unboosted Bullet Punch and finishing it off with Earthquake, which is perfectly safe but leaves Scizor dead and Gliscor weakened and naked. In that situation, the potential backups that would threaten Gliscor with Ice-type moves (and came to mind at that moment) were Starmie, Jynx, Froslass, Slowbro, and Slowking. Greninja can switch back in on and OHKO Starmie and Jynx (barring freezes), possibly Froslass too but that's a dicier proposition with Icy Wind and Destiny Bond (though I guess Surf first, if Icy Wind then go to Gliscor on Destiny Bond / Shadow Ball, and go back to Greninja is a, albeit essentially suicidal, thing too), and (though I'd be fucked pretty hard either way) preserving Scizor actually makes Slowbro and Slowking harder to deal with because Gliscor won't have enough Sub / Protect PP to stall them down (or enough HP to properly fish for them setting up Trick Room and thereby giving it a free Sub) and Scizor is too low on health to switch back in on them or take them on with TR active. And there's still the whole "when in trouble, don't get cute unless you have a very good reason" axiom. So I just Mega Evolve and click Bullet Punch.
And its second Focus Blast fucking misses. Kind of a lame way for this to play out and me dodging an enormous bullet I guess, but I kind of don't care and grin while I finish off Garde and OHKO the backups Jynx (wow talk about dodging a bullet) and Gothitelle. In the end, it's sort of a consolation that barring a Blizzard freeze on the switch back to Greninja I still would've won even without the Focus Blast miss. And either way, since the odds of hitting back-to-back Focus Blasts are below 50%, I guess it was not actually hax
I guess it was not just form / confidence that made this run possible, my experience with Marathon has been a big help too, not only by making me see more and better ways to handle some threats (like PP stalling down lead Gengar4 to set up Scizor rather than OHKOing it right away and potentially seeing secondmon Darmanitan4 / Gardevoir4 laugh in Greninja's face, or taking on Trevenant4 with Gliscor in TR), but naturally there was the sheer experience and the calmness / non-rushedness that Marathon forced onto me (whether I liked it or not lol) that helped me keep a clear head in difficult situations and just gave me more confidence in general (except in the last 150-ish battles l o l). This was a pretty pleasant run because the team is just so cute and enjoyable to play (and much faster than Marathon x__x), and in some twisted way also because its occasional unreliability and frailness made me appreciate even more just how sick Marathon was. I'd be extremely surprised if this team can make 2k too, though, because the flaws that it does have will come back to bite me (as the high number of "help I was forced to trade Greninja with the lead and I might lose if <x> shows up as a thirdmon" and similar situations that I have experienced suggests). I know I have a chronic habit of underestimating my own teams, but as much as this team has surprised me twice, let's be real it's never beating Kangliscune or any other of the actual top teams. And I don't know where I do want to take this one from here. My main motivation by far was to become the first one to hit 1k with lead Greninja, that one fanboy favourite everyone wants to see successful, or indeed with any "lead Starmie" team at all (assuming Jumpman didn't beat me to this one lol), and I know it's not the longest Greninja streak yet, but beating Draegininja feels like less of a noteworthy goal because with all due respect it's "just" a setup sweeper lead team like several others, not an archetype of its own. I'll still probably fnd some targets to shoot for, but since I can't realistically move up on the leaderboard anyway there likely won't be a real reason to start grinding maniacally again. And if I'll continue without a goal I'll probably lose in the blink of an eye anyways, and that'd be a bit of a waste.
Maybe I'll find some new motivation to continue playing with this team, or maybe I won't and my ORAS cart will keep an ongoing Singles streak in the Maison; but even if this is my last post about this team, I think "hitting 1k with lead Greninja" sounds like a better note to end my endeavours in the ORAS Singles maison on than "forgetting to Mega Evolve Gyarados and getting Aegislash burned for no reason whatsoever", and there are worse feelings. I'm still so psyched that I actually did it and that I finally set that brainfart against Volcarona right for real. And most of all that I could defy (most of all my own) expectations with the team that was my breakthrough in this thread. Yes – Tales from Topographic Oceans was the album that I essentially had on repeat for most of this run (proceed with caution because it's definitely not up to everyone's taste, but it's such good background music for grinding, seriously)—is it too late yet to retroactively name this team Dance of the Dawn?
(disclaimer: ye this is mostly the same stuff I already said in the initial post about this team, it's... not like this team is suddenly better equipped to handle them as leads :[ )
889 | Gyarados4 | Careful | Chesto Berry | Dragon Dance | Aqua Tail | Earthquake | Rest | HP/SpD
One of the worst leads for this team to face, and actually the one that prompted me to switch to Marathon way back when; it boosts all over the entire team, resists or is immune to Scizor's and Gliscor's entire sets, and walls Greninja because of its massive special bulk. When facing it as a lead, the best you can do is just spam Grass Knot (opening with Dark Pulse I guess cause muh hax); if it picks its moves optimally, it'll Dragon Dance twice, outspeed Greninja after the second and use Rest, boost a third time, and KO Greninja with two Grass Knots worth of damage, which leaves it in KO range of Scizor's Bullet Punch. As I know now unlike eighteen months ago, it can be baited in attacking Greninja a lot sooner if it comes out as a second mon (since Greninja will have taken Life Orb recoil), but if it doesn't misplay in the lead position, it's gonna be a trade at best barring Grass Knot crits or other hax. Fortunately, it does screw up at times e.g. by attacking Greninja right after its second Dragon Dance or setting up a third rather than using Rest, but clearly that's not something you can count on.
857 | Gardevoir4 | Modest | Babiri Berry | Psychic | Moonblast | Focus Blast | Thunderbolt | Spd/SpA
An utter nightmare to face for a Greninja lead, with great power and special bulk and not taking super effective damage from any hit. And it's absolutely hilarious when it Traces Protean. As would make sense, Scizor is the go-to counter, but in a trollish fashion it was given Babiri Berry to avoid the OHKO from unboosted Bullet Punch. My go-to play therefore is switching to Scizor on the Moonblast, SDing once while tanking Focus Blast, and OHKOing with +2 BP. Which falls flat on its face against Protean Gardevoir, because that one would finish off Scizor with Focus Blast. In that scenario, the best play seems to be going to Scizor on the Moonblast, going to Gliscor on the Focus Blast, using Earthquake, going back to Scizor on the Moonblast, and finishing it off with BP. Though it might very well just be outright sacrificing Greninja and taking my chances 2v2, more on that in the warstories :/
891 | Kingdra4 | Modest | White Herb | Draco Meteor | Surf | Blizzard | Protect | HP/Spd/SpA
Tricky, strong, bulky, and unpredictable. I used to try dropping its stats with Draco Meteor, but since it's a little too unpredictable to do that reliably (and because Sniper crits still laugh in your face), I usually just open with Grass Knot. Since Draco Meteor just barely misses the KO on Greninja, it tends to open with Protect, which allows Grass-type Greninja to bait the Blizzard and easily 2HKO it with Ice Beam. It can quickly get dumb and blow huge hole in my team though if it does decide to attack. This is really a Pokemon that requires me to have both Greninja at full health and Scizor reasonably healthy to take on properly :/
853 | Aerodactyl4 | Jolly | Choice Band | Stone Edge | Aerial Ace | Earthquake | Crunch | Atk/Spd
OHKOes Greninja before it can move, and makes Sub / Protect stalling a tall order. Sadly... since it can crit OHKO non-Mega Scizor too, very sadly going to Gliscor is indeed the best play here, and spamming Protect then is the way to go. Between the odds of a double Protect and Stone Edge's miss chance the odds of Gliscor surviving actually aren't half bad, but under normal circumstances, Gliscor will sacrifice itself to get rid of the Stone Edge PP. That allows Scizor to Mega Evolve and set up to +6 while Aero Struggles to death, which generally is enough to sweep (also see the calcs of those Bullet Punch OHKOs on the frail Fire-types); even if it crit OHKOes Gliscor before running out of PP, Scizor can just Mega Evolve and Roost stall the final couple Stone Edges. Therefore, I've never lost to Aero (yet), but clearly it has the potential to blow a huge hole into my team and potentially allow bad backups to screw me over.
744 | Empoleon4 | Calm | Petaya Berry | Surf | Substitute | Blizzard | Whirlpool | HP/SpA
Loses when it comes out against Gliscor or a fresh or boosted Scizor, but one of the trickiest leads to play around. The "correct" play seems to be Grass Knot on turn 1 (it will Surf or Sub) -> go to Scizor (it will Sub or Blizzard) -> set up one SD -> Roost (spam until it does set up a Sub if applicable) -> 2HKO through its Sub. Clearly kinda hax prone, but otherwise it works reasonably well without blowing huge holes into my team.
935 | Regice2 | Timid | Chesto Berry | Thunderbolt | Icy Wind | Ice Beam | Rest | HP/Def/Spd
Any lead Regice warrants an immediate switch to Gliscor because of the threat of their Electric moves or Focus Blasts. If only the AI didn't have this huge preference for speed control moves if they can't OHKO the lead, because this one pretty much always uses Icy Wind on the switch to Gliscor. Gliscor actually survives this because it's brutal (HUGE argument in favour of Careful Gliscor right here), but it forces me to go to Scizor immediately, SD once, Roost probably, and OHKO it with +2 BP. If Scizor gets hit by Icy Wind (guaranteeing Thunderbolt), I can also go back to Gliscor a couple more times for some more PH recovery (wheee!), which actually was extremely valuable one time I faced it when the second mon was something that... I don't recall but forced out Scizor and was supposed to be handled by Gliscor, so it was probably Zapdos1 or Entei1. And naturally there's always the threat of Ice Beam freezes (good thing it prefers TBolt when Scizor is out) and Thunderbolt paralyses, so ye not fun to face. It's not a super major threat by any means, but it is one that saps away a lot of momentum right away and can be trouble in combination with bad backups. Unfortunately, though, this is the one threat (alongside Articuno2) that requires me to keep Scizor alive against Veterans. It was absolutely hilarious when I was facing it once and thought "huh, good thing I've never gotten smacked with an Ice Beam freeze on the switch to Scizor here, because I think I'd probably just lose then" about three seconds before I got smacked with an Ice Beam freeze on the switch back to Gliscor and thought I'd probably just lose—fortunately Scizor thawed out right away heh.
Situational threats include the usual stuff like fast Fire-types coming out on a Grass- or Ice-type Greninja (looking at you, Darm4), stuff like Togekiss where I have to rely on rolls, and freezing / OHKO-using Ice-types in general like Articuno and Cryogonal.
Speaking of Walrein, I haven't tried this yet, but how would the Walrein4 set function in the Maison? It's just a thought that popped in my head as I was facing one. Would it work ok or would it be too luck based to do anything?
An improved Imperfect Pyroar3, as it is the only Maison set capable of making Moxie useful. Unlike the above set, fitting THIS into a team will be a challenge (a PYROAR CHALLENGE, one could say)...
Speaking of Walrein, I tried it out, and it didn't do so hot. On top of being slow, it wa also obviously extremely luck based. Not a fan of using it personally.
Hey everyone, first post here. I just wanted to share my Super Multi-Battle record of 52. I noticed every record on the Multi with AI section uses Steven as the partner, so I wanted to try something a little different, and see if a viable team could be made with Maxie as the partner. Here’s what I got:
@ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 Atk, 252 Spd
-Cross Poison
-Brave Bird
-Super Fang
-Roost
The team is built around Maxie leading with Camerupt. Leading with Crobat leaves the team far too susceptible to electric and rock attacks for my liking. With Charizard and Camerupt leading, the strategy is relatively simple. If the opponents have no rock, electric, or water attacks from Pokemon Charizard can’t OHKO, we go on a rampage with Drought-boosted fire attacks and Solar Beam. Mega Camerupt’s attacks hit stupidly hard thanks to Sheer Force and Drought, and it is more or less GG for my opponents under these conditions. I initially had Air Slash on Charizard, but switched to Dragon Pulse later to make certain dragons less annoying to fight, and Air Slash provides mostly redundant coverage with Flamethrower. Should the aforementioned electric, rock, and water attacks come out, I have the option to either Protect, or switch out into Gastrodon depending on what it is.
Gastrodon was chosen for the team for several reasons. It covers all of Charizard’s weaknesses, and thanks to Storm Drain, can protect Maxie’s Camerupt from single target water moves. Even Surf I’m not that concerned about, given that Camerupt can survive at least one even without Drought, and the Sp. Atk boost is much appreciated. His only weakness is a 4x to Grass, a type that is covered by all the other members of the team. Not really sure if max physical bulk is at all optimal for the Maison, and I’d like some feedback on the moveset.
Ideally Crobat puts in work as a late battle clean-up Pokemon, with its blistering fast Brave Bird KOing most everything weak to it, and putting a huge dent in Pokemon that don’t resist it (outright KOing low Def Pokemon). The only trouble is if Camerupt goes down early, I can’t rely on Crobat to last long with its BB recoil and Life Orb damage.
Battle 53 was an unfortunate combination of a terrible misplay on turn 1, bizarre and unexpected AI behavior on both sides, and a small dose of ill luck at the end. I did not save the replay due to frustration and annoyance, but I remember most of it.
I lead with the usual Charizard and Camerupt, and my opponents send out Trevenant4 and Electivire4. Expecting a Thunder Punch Charizard’s way, I switch out to Gastrodon only for it to Earthquake instead. Camerupt uses Yawn on Electivire (why…), and Trevenant sets up Trick Room. Thunder Punch would have done much more to Charizard than EQ would have to Camerupt and not have the added effect of damaging Trev, so I'm guessing the AI was only factoring in the raw move power? I don't know.
Turn 2 Camerupt Fire Blasts Trevenant for the KO, and is KOed himself by another EQ. Electivire falls asleep while Gastrodon uses Earth Power, getting rid of its Shuca Berry. Opponent sends out Starmie4, Maxie sends out Crobat.
At this point things are looking bleak, as Starmie outspeeds and one-shots Crobat in TR and I have to go 2v1. Gastrodon finishes off Electivire, and Mandibuzz4 is sent out.
Over the next couple turns, Gastrodon is brought down to the reds through Psychic and Swagger, while Earth Powering the Starmie as much as I could. With TR ending, I expect to be finished off but Starmie decides to use Surf instead, boosting my Sp. Atk just enough so that Earth Power nets the KO on it. Mandibuzz KOs Gastrodon next turn.
Charizard can’t OHKO Mandibuzz, and gets Swaggered. He hits himself twice in a row while my opponent uses Roost and Punishment to end my run.
My inexperience really shows on the first turn misplay, as I decided to run some battle calculations after sleeping it off, and it turns out Charizard’s Flamethrower would have been a guaranteed OHKO on Electivire in the sun. So even with Camerupt wasting a turn with Yawn, he still would have come out of the first turn unscathed, and have been able to storm through my opponents under TR. Yawn is another thing I want to address here, mainly in that it’s used at such inopportune times and makes battles far more nerve-wracking than they need to be. Camerupt doesn’t really get any other special attacks that wouldn’t be redundant, but I’d still much rather he have another fire attack or something in place of Yawn.
I may try this again later, but I mainly wanted to post this for reference, and to show that perhaps a more skilled player than I can go further in this format using a non-Steven partner. Here's the battle against the Chatelaines if anyone's interested: SN3W-WWWW-WW4N-QWQ9
Especially those with 252 Atk/252 SA (Charizard3 for example). Seems weird that pokemon without special attacks would get ev’s in special attack and the same goes for attack.
Shouldn’t it be speed instead of Atk/SA? This is kinda annoying cause I’m using this list as a reference.
I've updated through here. As always, let me know if you spot any errors or omissions! And sorry about the delay since the last update.
The Dutch Plumberjack has, in his excellent writeup of his most recent streak, reminded me that I need to post about Landorus / Mega Slowbro / Chansey. The short form is "Very solid squad, but Unaware Quagsire is a big threat." The long form will follow eventually, since the team really deserves to be recorded.
And finally, the next post will be number 5000(!!!!) in this thread. WOW! One more example of the great Maison community we have here! Thank you all for your contributions!!!
Hello Smogon, I have just lost on 80 wins in the Super Doubles Maison in one of the haxiest ways ever.
I probably should have went for Togekiss in the beginning, but Gengar scares me. The ending is just stupid. The only way this team loses are things like what happens in the end, which is a Shadow Ball special defense decrease, followed by a second Shadow Ball that flinches with King's Rock and critical hits.
Team is Mega Blastoise, Clefairy, Bisharp, and Raichu. I'll post the details if anyone wants to see.
Hey everyone, me again. As of today I have now achieved 5th place on the Singles leaderboard!
Same team from Page 198, nothing new (no need to change anything). It's been relatively smooth sailing since I accomplished 1,000 wins, no particularly close calls or noteworthy moments (that I can remember, at least). I figured this would be deserving of another update, since the gap from 5th-4th is so large. I would like to reach 2,000 wins by the time SM comes out if possible though, or die trying. That would be really awesome. All I have to say, really. Battle Video time!
Battle No. 1,211: AKZG-WWWW-WW4Z-SH9X ("Ice to meet you")
Normally a sack is required against lead Garchomp4. But not when you have a hax god Greninja.
Battle No. 1,407: UY5W-WWWW-WW4Z-SHAT ("Rhy-not-so-superior")
The extra DD at the end was highly unnecessary, but when you know you have the win in the bag, stunting on the CPU feels pretty good.
