SubSeed Serperior

snake

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[SET]
name: SubSeed
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Leaf Storm
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Leftovers
ability: Contrary
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute shields Serperior from status effects from Rotom-W, Necturna, Mega Sableye, Chansey, Tomohawk, Garchomp, Gliscor, Slowbro, Clefable, and Ferrothorn and weak attacks from opposing walls. Leech Seed wears down opposing walls like specially defensive Heatran, Chansey, defensive Cyclohm, Unaware Clefable, specially defensive Jirachi, and Skarmory, Pokemon that Serperior struggles against with its other sets. Leaf Storm is Serperior's strongest STAB attack and boosts Serperior's Special Attack after using it, allowing it to break past worn-down walls and offensive Pokemon. Hidden Power Fire is Serperior's best coverage move, hitting Pokemon that take minimal damage from Leaf Storm like Scizor, Ferrothorn, Necturna, Kitsunoh, Cawmodore, and Mega Metagross super effectively. Hidden Power Ground is a decent coverage move that 2HKOes specially defensive Heatran and has a chance to OHKO tank Mollux after a Leaf Storm boost, but it leaves Serperior walled by Flying-types and the Steel-types that are hit super effectively by Hidden Power Fire.

Set Details
========

252 Speed EVs and a Timid nature allow Serperior to outspeed as many threats as possible, outspeeding base 110 Pokemon such as Mega Diancie and Kitsunoh and Speed tying with other Hidden Power Fire Serperior; however, note that it cannot outspeed Mega Crucibelle. 252 Special Attack EVs allow Serperior to hit as hard as possible because without a Life Orb, Serperior needs every ounce of power it can get. Leftovers allows Serperior to make more Substitutes and mitigate damage dealt by walls.

Usage Tips
========

Switch Serperior into resisted hits or weak attacks. If switching into a wall, try not to get hit by a status effect. Double switches or safe switches through U-turn, Volt Switch, and Baton Pass also help Serperior get in safely. Using Substitute is generally the best first course of action after Serperior switches in, as it shields Serperior from status effects. Against a wall, Leech Seed's passive recovery helps heal off the HP lost from setting up a Substitute. Leaf Storm should then be used if Serperior will not be forced out. Save Leaf Storm's PP until after Unaware Clefable and Haze Tomohawk have been removed from play. The former can heal off damage from Leech Seed and Leaf Storm, while the latter can alternate between Rapid Spin, which frees it from Leech Seed, and Haze, which removes Serperior's boosts. Wear down Tomohawk until it is forced to Roost, and take advantage of the turn it does so to use an unresisted Leaf Storm. Do not overestimate Serperior's firepower, as the lack of a Life Orb makes Serperior not very threatening unless it has a few boosts under its belt. This set should be used primarily to stallbreak; however, it can hold its own against offensive teams too. Hidden Power is Serperior's best move to use when wearing down a wall, as the other three moves' PP are precious.

Team Options
========

Offensive teams appreciate Serperior's Grass-type STAB attacks and ability to wear down opposing walls. Because Talonflame, Tornadus-T, and Tomohawk annoy this set, Electric-type Pokemon are great teammates. Notable examples include Cyclohm and Rotom-W, which resist these counters' Flying-type STAB moves. In return, Serperior removes Ground-types like Colossoil and walls like Cyclohm, which give these Pokemon trouble. In particular, VoltTurn teams help Serperior switch in more easily and appreciate Serperior's ability to remove opposing walls. Crucibelle and Rotom-W can deal with Flying-types such as Tornadus-T, Tomohawk, and Talonflame. The former can either threaten these Flying-types with STAB Head Smash or set up with Coil, but it must be wary of Superpower from Life Orb Tornadus-T and Earth Power from Tomohawk, whereas the latter must be wary of Life Orb Focus Blast Tornadus-T and Life Orb Aura Sphere Tomohawk. Both have access to U-turn and Volt Switch, respectively, allowing safe switches for Serperior. They also act as good switch-ins to Fire-types like Mollux and Heatran. Paralysis inducers like Clefable, Thundurus, and Cyclohm are good teammates for Serperior, as they allow Serperior to outspeed faster offensive Pokemon like Choice Scarf Volkraken, Mega Crucibelle, and Syclant.
 
Last edited:

snake

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Kinda rushed through this, but I feel like it's ready for QC.

Pretty straightforward set tbh
 
After mulling it over, I feel like a more offensive spread of 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe is the way to go. The 56 HP benchmark is based on Rotom-W's Hydro Pump, which doesn't seem that relevant to me considering Rotom-W is easily forced out regardless of Serperior's HP investment. Even if Rotom-W does stay in and click Hydro Pump vs 0 HP / 4 SpD Serp, the roll for breaking Substitute is not in Rotom-W's favor, especially with accuracy taken into account.

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 64-76 (21.9 - 26.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 4HKO
(64, 65, 66, 66, 67, 68, 69, 69, 70, 71, 72, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76)

Considering Serperior can just keep subbing (and that Rotom-W isn't realistically staying in anyway) I'd either find a different defensive benchmark or just switch to 252/4/252, since the extra power does make a difference in several relevant scenarios. I can post calcs for this later if needed.
 

snake

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I'd love to see the difference between 200 and 252 SpA EVs (not challenging you, just curious); though I'll try to find another defensive benchmark.

EDIT: 56 HP EVs hits one of over a Leftovers number (304) and lets Serp set up Substitute 4 times...
 
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Sorry it took me a while to get back to you on this.
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 320-380 (99 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 306-362 (94.7 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 296-350 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 282-332 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 344-408 (87.3 - 103.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 326-386 (82.7 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

obviously most of these are only going to be relevant in some end-game scenarios, but they're mainly intended as examples where serp just doesn't quite have enough power off the bat. it's sorta hard to get more ultra specific scenarios, but from my experience running the 56 HP spread (I've ran both spreads, using that team we built a while back), I found myself just missing KOes at +2 fairly often, and after switching to the 252/252 spread, I rarely found myself actually missing the bulk.
Besides the spread, the main thing I'm looking at is other potential Hidden Powers that could be mentioned. HP Fire is probably the best all-around, but I still think HP Ground could be worth a mention.
 
Team Options need to be buffed; think in terms of serp's checks (torn-t/talon are still massive pains for this set). Electric-types in general are good partners for this reason. Rotom-W in particular is notable for its bulk and access to a slow Volt Switch to get Serperior in safely. Cyclohm is also notable for its bulk, longevity, and ability to check Steels reliably, which Serperior will often need help with (even with Hidden Power).

So yup, basically give examples of VoltTurn mons that have good synergy with Serperior, expand on teammates that help deal w/ this set's biggest checks (fire-types, especially faster ones, and flying-types). Mega Crucibelle and Rotom-W fit the bill really well here. After that, consider it QC 1/3

 

dhelmise

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[SET]
name: SubSeed
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Leaf Storm
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Leftovers
ability: Contrary
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute shields Serperior from status effects from Rotom-W, Necturna, Mega Sableye, Chansey, Tomohawk, Garchomp, Gliscor, Slowbro, Clefable, and Ferrothorn and weak attacks from opposing walls. Leech Seed wears down opposing walls like specially defensive Heatran, Chansey, defensive Cyclohm, Unaware Clefable, specially defensive Jirachi, and Skarmory, Pokemon with which that Serperior struggles with its other sets. Leaf Storm is Serperior's strongest STAB attack and boosts Serperior's Special Attack after using it, allowing it to break past worn-down walls and offensive Pokemon. Hidden Power Fire is Serperior's best coverage move, hitting Pokemon that would otherwise take minimal damage from Leaf Storm like Scizor, Ferrothorn, Necturna, Kitsunoh, Cawmodore, and Mega Metagross super effectively. Hidden Power Ground is a decent coverage move that 2HKOes specially defensive Heatran after a Leaf Storm boost and has a chance to OHKO tank Mollux after a Leaf Storm boost, but it leaves Serperior walled by Flying-type Flying-types and the Steel-types that are hit super effectively by Hidden Power Fire.

Set Details
========

252 Speed EVs and a Timid nature allow Serperior allow it to outspeed as many threats as possible, outspeeding base 110 Pokemon like Mega Diancie and Kitsunoh and speed tying with other Hidden Power Fire Serperior; however, note. (RC) Note that it cannot outspeed Jolly (only add this in if Mega Crucibelle sometimes runs Adamant) Mega Crucibelle. 252 Special Attack EVs allow Serperior to hit as hard as possible because without. (RP) Without a Life Orb, Serperior needs every ounce of power it can get. Leftovers allows Serperior to make more Substitutes and mitigate damage dealt by walls.

Usage Tips
========

Switch Serperior into resisted hits or weak attacks. If switching into a wall, try not to get hit by a status effect. Double switches or safe switches through U-turn, Volt Switch, and Baton Pass also help Serperior get in safely. Using Substitute is generally the best first course of action after Serperior switches in, as it shields Serperior from status effects. Against a wall, Leech Seed's passive recovery helps heal off the damage taken from setting up a Substitute. Leaf Storm should then be used if Serperior will not be forced out. Save Leaf Storm Leaf Storm's PP until after Unaware Clefable and Haze Tomohawk have been removed from play. The former can heal off Leech Seed damage and Leaf Storm damage, while the latter can alternate between Rapid Spin, which deseeds itself, and Haze, which removes Serperior's boosts. Wear down Tomohawk until it is forced to Roost; take advantage of the turn it does so to use an unresisted Leaf Storm. Do not overestimate Serperior's firepower, as the lack of a Life Orb makes Serperior not very threatening unless it has a few boosts under its belt. This set should be used primarily to stallbreak; however, (AC) it can hold its own against offensive teams. Hidden Power is Serperior's best move to use when wearing down a wall, as the other three move's moves' PP are precious.

Team Options
========

Offensive teams appreciate Serperior's Grass-type STAB Grass typing (is this what you meant?) and ability to wear down opposing walls. Because Talonflame, Tornadus-T, and Tomohawk annoy this set, Electric-type Pokemon are great teammates. Notable examples include Cyclohm and Rotom-W, which resist these counters' Flying-type STAB moves. In return, Serperior removes Ground-types like Colossoil and walls like Cyclohm, (AC) which that give these Pokemon trouble. In particular, Voltturn pivotal teams help Serperior get in more easily and appreciate how Serperior can remove opposing walls. Crucibelle and Rotom-W can deal with Flying-types such as Tornadus-T, Tomohawk, and Talonflame. The former can either threaten these Flying-types with STAB Head Smash or can set up with Coil, but it must be wary of Superpower from Life Orb Tornadus-T and Earth Power from Tomohawk, (AC); (RSC) whereas the latter must be wary of Life Orb Focus Blast Tornadus-T and Life Orb Aura Sphere Tomohawk. Both have access to U-turn and Volt Switch, respectively, allowing safe switch ins switches for Serperior. They also act as good switch-ins to Fire-types like Mollux and Heatran. Paralysis inducers like Clefable, Thundurus, and Cyclohm are good teammates for Serperior, as they allow allowing Serperior to outspeed faster offensive Pokemon like Choice Scarf Volkraken, Mega Crucibelle, and Syclant.
amcheck
 

Empress

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Me: add remove comment
[SET]
name: SubSeed
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Leaf Storm
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Leftovers
ability: Contrary
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute shields Serperior from status effects from Rotom-W, Necturna, Mega Sableye, Chansey, Tomohawk, Garchomp, Gliscor, Slowbro, Clefable, and Ferrothorn and weak attacks from opposing walls. Leech Seed wears down opposing walls like specially defensive Heatran, Chansey, defensive Cyclohm, Unaware Clefable, specially defensive Jirachi, and Skarmory, Pokemon with which that Serperior struggles against with its other sets. Leaf Storm is Serperior's strongest STAB attack and boosts Serperior's Special Attack after using it, allowing it to break past worn-down walls and offensive Pokemon. Hidden Power Fire is Serperior's best coverage move, hitting Pokemon that would otherwise take minimal damage from Leaf Storm like Scizor, Ferrothorn, Necturna, Kitsunoh, Cawmodore, and Mega Metagross super effectively. Hidden Power Ground is a decent coverage move that 2HKOes specially defensive Heatran after a Leaf Storm boost and has a chance to OHKO tank Mollux after a Leaf Storm boost, but it leaves Serperior walled by Flying-type Flying-types and the Steel-types that are hit super effectively by Hidden Power Fire.

Set Details
========

252 Speed EVs and a Timid nature allow Serperior allow it to outspeed as many threats as possible, outspeeding base 110 Pokemon like Mega Diancie and Kitsunoh and speed Speed tying with other Hidden Power Fire Serperior; however, note. (RC) Note that it cannot outspeed Jolly (only add this in if Mega Crucibelle sometimes runs Adamant) Mega Crucibelle. 252 Special Attack EVs allow Serperior to hit as hard as possible because without. (RP) Without a Life Orb, Serperior needs every ounce of power it can get. Leftovers allows Serperior to make more Substitutes and mitigate damage dealt by walls.

Usage Tips
========

Switch Serperior into resisted hits or weak attacks. If switching into a wall, try not to get hit by a status effect. Double switches or safe switches through U-turn, Volt Switch, and Baton Pass also help Serperior get in safely. Using Substitute is generally the best first course of action after Serperior switches in, as it shields Serperior from status effects. Against a wall, Leech Seed's passive recovery helps heal off the damage taken from setting up a Substitute. Leaf Storm should then be used if Serperior will not be forced out. Save Leaf Storm Leaf Storm's PP until after Unaware Clefable and Haze Tomohawk have been removed from play. The former can heal off Leech Seed damage from Leech Seed and Leaf Storm damage, while the latter can alternate between Rapid Spin, which deseeds itself frees it from Leech Seed, and Haze, which removes Serperior's boosts. Wear down Tomohawk until it is forced to Roost; take advantage of the turn it does so to use an unresisted Leaf Storm. Do not overestimate Serperior's firepower, as the lack of a Life Orb makes Serperior not very threatening unless it has a few boosts under its belt. This set should be used primarily to stallbreak; however, (AC) it can hold its own against offensive teams. Hidden Power is Serperior's best move to use when wearing down a wall, as the other three move's moves' PP are precious.

Team Options
========

Offensive teams appreciate Serperior's Grass-type STAB Grass typing (is this what you meant?) (I think he meant Grass-type STAB attacks. Not that it matters; this works too) and ability to wear down opposing walls. Because Talonflame, Tornadus-T, and Tomohawk annoy this set, Electric-type Pokemon are great teammates. Notable examples include Cyclohm and Rotom-W, which resist these counters' Flying-type STAB moves. In return, Serperior removes Ground-types like Colossoil and walls like Cyclohm, (AC) which that give these Pokemon trouble. In particular, Voltturn pivotal VoltTurn (Did you misread this as "VoltTurn teammates"? Regardless, I don't believe that's the right definition of pivotal.) teams help Serperior get in more easily and appreciate how Serperior can remove opposing walls. Crucibelle and Rotom-W can deal with Flying-types such as Tornadus-T, Tomohawk, and Talonflame. The former can either threaten these Flying-types with STAB Head Smash or can set up with Coil, but it must be wary of Superpower from Life Orb Tornadus-T and Earth Power from Tomohawk, (AC); (RSC) whereas the latter must be wary of Life Orb Focus Blast Tornadus-T and Life Orb Aura Sphere Tomohawk. Both have access to U-turn and Volt Switch, respectively, allowing safe switch ins switches for Serperior. They also act as good switch-ins to Fire-types like Mollux and Heatran. Paralysis inducers like Clefable, Thundurus, and Cyclohm are good teammates for Serperior, as they allow allowing Serperior it to outspeed faster offensive Pokemon like Choice Scarf Volkraken, Mega Crucibelle, and Syclant.
Thanks Kris!
GP 1/2
 

Rare Poison

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GP 2/2

add/change; remove; (comment); (AC) = add comma; (RC) = remove comma
[SET]
name: SubSeed
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Leaf Storm
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Leftovers
ability: Contrary
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute shields Serperior from status effects from Rotom-W, Necturna, Mega Sableye, Chansey, Tomohawk, Garchomp, Gliscor, Slowbro, Clefable, and Ferrothorn and weak attacks from opposing walls. Leech Seed wears down opposing walls like specially defensive Heatran, Chansey, defensive Cyclohm, Unaware Clefable, specially defensive Jirachi, and Skarmory, Pokemon that Serperior struggles against with its other sets. Leaf Storm is Serperior's strongest STAB attack and boosts Serperior's Special Attack after using it, allowing it to break past worn-down walls and offensive Pokemon. Hidden Power Fire is Serperior's best coverage move, hitting Pokemon that take minimal damage from Leaf Storm like Scizor, Ferrothorn, Necturna, Kitsunoh, Cawmodore, and Mega Metagross super effectively. Hidden Power Ground is a decent coverage move that 2HKOes specially defensive Heatran and has a chance to OHKO tank Mollux after a Leaf Storm boost, but it leaves Serperior walled by Flying-types and the Steel-types that are hit super effectively by Hidden Power Fire.

Set Details
========

252 Speed EVs and a Timid nature allow Serperior to outspeed as many threats as possible, outspeeding base 110 Pokemon like such as Mega Diancie and Kitsunoh and Speed tying with other Hidden Power Fire Serperior; however, (AC) note that it cannot outspeed Mega Crucibelle. 252 Special Attack EVs allow Serperior to hit as hard as possible because without a Life Orb, Serperior needs every ounce of power it can get. Leftovers allows Serperior to make more Substitutes and mitigate damage dealt by walls.

Usage Tips
========

Switch Serperior into resisted hits or weak attacks. If switching into a wall, try not to get hit by a status effect. Double switches or safe switches through U-turn, Volt Switch, and Baton Pass also help Serperior get in safely. Using Substitute is generally the best first course of action after Serperior switches in, as it shields Serperior from status effects. Against a wall, Leech Seed's passive recovery helps heal off the damage taken HP lost from setting up a Substitute. Leaf Storm should then be used if Serperior will not be forced out. Save Leaf Storm's PP until after Unaware Clefable and Haze Tomohawk have been removed from play. The former can heal off damage from Leech Seed and Leaf Storm, while the latter can alternate between Rapid Spin, which frees it from Leech Seed itself, and Haze, which removes Serperior's boosts. Wear down Tomohawk until it is forced to Roost; (remove semicolon) , (AC) and take advantage of the turn it does so to use an unresisted Leaf Storm. Do not overestimate Serperior's firepower, as the lack of a Life Orb makes Serperior not very threatening unless it has a few boosts under its belt. This set should be used primarily to stallbreak; however, it can hold its own against offensive teams too. Hidden Power is Serperior's best move to use when wearing down a wall, as the other three moves' PP are precious.

Team Options
========

Offensive teams appreciate Serperior's Grass-type STAB attacks and ability to wear down opposing walls. Because Talonflame, Tornadus-T, and Tomohawk annoy this set, Electric-type Pokemon are great teammates. Notable examples include Cyclohm and Rotom-W, which resist these counters' Flying-type STAB moves. In return, Serperior removes Ground-types like Colossoil and walls like Cyclohm, which give these Pokemon trouble. In particular, Voltturn VoltTurn teams help Serperior get switch in more easily and appreciate how Serperior's ability to can remove opposing walls. Crucibelle and Rotom-W can deal with Flying-types such as Tornadus-T, Tomohawk, and Talonflame. The former either can either threaten these Flying-types with STAB Head Smash or set up with Coil, but it must be wary of Superpower from Life Orb Tornadus-T and Earth Power from Tomohawk, whereas the latter must be wary of Life Orb Focus Blast Tornadus-T and Life Orb Aura Sphere Tomohawk. Both have access to U-turn and Volt Switch, respectively, allowing safe switches for Serperior. They also act as good switch-ins to Fire-types like Mollux and Heatran. Paralysis inducers like Clefable, Thundurus, and Cyclohm are good teammates for Serperior, as they allow Serperior to outspeed faster offensive Pokemon like Choice Scarf Volkraken, Mega Crucibelle, and Syclant.
 
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