ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[Nixon73]

I'm pretty sure Kyurem-W should be moved C --> B (or at least B-).

Kyurem-W is a very effective mon in the current bulky meta. 95 base speed outspeeds almost all of the bulky pokemon in the tier, making it excellent as a revenge killer, and it is a nightmare to switch into. The specs set can OHKO almost all Pdon sets with Draco Meteor, and isn't OHKO'd by any that survive it, so it works as a good offensive check to Pdon. Not much in the current meta resists Ice Beam, and checks like Water Arceus and PKyogre need almost full HP to survive switching into Draco Meteor. Most Ho-oh can't switch into it, Lugia is OHKO'd after SR, and offensive checks like Blaziken, Lucario, Mewtwo, and Khan can't go near it without an expensive free switch. More often than not, people are forced to switch in their Xerneas check, which can mean gg if the Kyurem user predicts well enough, or sacrifice a pokemon so they can bring in a check.

Kyurem-W is still a flawed pokemon, living in fear of basically any Arceus forme that isn't weak to its STABs, and vulnerable to getting choice-locked and becoming setup fodder. It also becomes rather useless if paralyzed, and has an SR weakness, which limit its viability. Nonetheless, its reasonable bulk, moderately-high speed, and ability to take a big chunk out of basically anything brought into it works well and can be lethal in the current meta given support, especially when partnered with a Xerneas that can wait for a few good hits to let it sweep a weakened team.

Overall, I think B would more accurately reflect the current effectiveness of Kyurem-W; it definitely has a larger and more effective niche than is suggested by its standing in C.

 

[Cynara]

I'm pretty sure Kyurem-W should be moved C --> B (or at least B-).

Kyurem-W is a very effective mon in the current bulky meta. 95 base speed outspeeds almost all of the bulky pokemon in the tier, making it excellent as a revenge killer, and it is a nightmare to switch into. The specs set can OHKO almost all Pdon sets with Draco Meteor, and isn't OHKO'd by any that survive it, so it works as a good offensive check to Pdon. Not much in the current meta resists Ice Beam, and checks like Water Arceus and PKyogre need almost full HP to survive switching into Draco Meteor. Most Ho-oh can't switch into it, Lugia is OHKO'd after SR, and offensive checks like Blaziken, Lucario, Mewtwo, and Khan can't go near it without an expensive free switch. More often than not, people are forced to switch in their Xerneas check, which can mean gg if the Kyurem user predicts well enough, or sacrifice a pokemon so they can bring in a check.

Kyurem-W is still a flawed pokemon, living in fear of basically any Arceus forme that isn't weak to its STABs, and vulnerable to getting choice-locked and becoming setup fodder. It also becomes rather useless if paralyzed, and has an SR weakness, which limit its viability. Nonetheless, its reasonable bulk, moderately-high speed, and ability to take a big chunk out of basically anything brought into it works well and can be lethal in the current meta given support, especially when partnered with a Xerneas that can wait for a few good hits to let it sweep a weakened team.

Overall, I think B would more accurately reflect the current effectiveness of Kyurem-W; it definitely has a larger and more effective niche than is suggested by its standing in C.

Kyurem-white to B is nuts. The reason Kyu-W is C is because of its barely workable niche and it's very hard to justify in a teambuild due to its inherent flaws; horrible defense typing and requires quite a bit of support to function and therefore you end up with a build with a lot of compression just to justify it. (Ho-oh / Bronzong / Mega Diancie / support Arceus Dragon with W-o-W / Primal Groudon / Kyurem-White ) is one such team skeleton and is just about workable as far as kyu-w teams go and has a ghostceus problem so hence the huge compression on the arceus slot.

its a liability versus offense builds since it will basically either just die or be forced to trade against something which basically makes it a 5 v 6 for kyu-w teams against offense in some scenarios. Choice sets risk predictably and effectively easier to check, I think LO roost + atks is the way to go, otherwise you become complete setup bait to common offensive threats like Arceus and Geomancy Xerneas, especially if kyu-w decides to Draco Meteor. (you underlined this but it is a important factor)

As for its effective wallbreaking ability against balance teams, its not as good as it makes it out to be, while it does break alot of specific builds. bulky Hooh, defensive Kyogre, blissey, support Arceus water all comfortably check it, especially if it decides to forgo Life orb for a choice specs or choice scarf.

Well Kyurem white does have a very specific niche in the tier to keep it out the D ranks, its not a very workable one and doesn't fit the criteria of a B rank Pokemon of having a defined and workable niche in the tier.

 

[shrang]

Kyu-W is shit. Reasons:

1) Being (relatively) slow and having meh typing means it's not in a good position vs the (currently) offensive metagame (and even if it outspeeds those teams have easy pivots such as Ho-oh, Waterceus, death foddering Deo-S, etc etc)
2) Even when stall is more popular, Kyu-W still can't break it because those teams have dedicated walls which Kyu still can't break (read: Blissey/Tyranitar)
3) Its poor defensive typing means it has very little to offer from a defensive standpoint
4) Stemming from the above point, the fact that it's got a shit defensive typing + being SR weak means it's not going to be switching into much so you can't use it as much either

Like seriously, what's with the recent trend of people bringing up mediocre offensive mons with 0 defensive utility for viability ranking increases (eg Skymin)? I'd argue that Kyu-B is a better Pokemon than Kyu-W in the current Ubers metagame.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Kyu-W is shit. Reasons:

1) Being (relatively) slow and having meh typing means it's not in a good position vs the (currently) offensive metagame (and even if it outspeeds those teams have easy pivots such as Ho-oh, Waterceus, death foddering Deo-S, etc etc)
2) Even when stall is more popular, Kyu-W still can't break it because those teams have dedicated walls which Kyu still can't break (read: Blissey/Tyranitar)
3) Its poor defensive typing means it has very little to offer from a defensive standpoint
4) Stemming from the above point, the fact that it's got a shit defensive typing + being SR weak means it's not going to be switching into much so you can't use it as much either

Like seriously, what's with the recent trend of people bringing up mediocre offensive mons with 0 defensive utility for viability ranking increases (eg Skymin)? I'd argue that Kyu-B is a better Pokemon than Kyu-W in the current Ubers metagame.

Would you say Kyurem-W fits better in a lower ranking than the one it's currently in? If it truly is worse than C, I'd see no problem in seeing Kyurem-W drop to C- or D, though that's probably going to be another heated argument. I'd argue it's still better than stuff like Reshiram, but in the end, if its current rank is too high, then it should simply drop.

I hope you don't mind me asking, at least. Should this post be useless, feel free to delete.

 

[HappyHoopa05]

Would you say Kyurem-W fits better in a lower ranking than the one it's currently in? If it truly is worse than C, I'd see no problem in seeing Kyurem-W drop to C- or D, though that's probably going to be another heated argument. I'd argue it's still better than stuff like Reshiram, but in the end, if its current rank is too high, then it should simply drop.

I hope you don't mind me asking, at least. Should this post be useless, feel free to delete.

In this case, I think C- is fine, since C is too high but he is not an absolute trash lik Reshiram or Arceus-Bug.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

I'm surprised kyu-w isn't blacklisted at this point. Is the definition of d-rank really that unclear?

 

[HappyHoopa05]

I'm surprised kyu-w isn't blacklisted at this point. Is the definition of d-rank really that unclear?

Blacklisted pokemon are those who are in any aspect possible totally unviable (like golduck) or are horribly outclassed (like Mega-Latwins) but some people insist on trying to discuss. I think Kyurem-W is worth discussing if we're going to put him in C- or D (Or put him in B- lol) since it has it niche, even if it's outshadowed by numerous flaws.

 

[Nixon73]

Wow, this thread is more toxic than I would have imagined. All but brought up my mom for suggesting a move...
I'll just stress again that no one thinks Kyurem-W is the best pokemon in the game, so much as that it performs better than, say, Alomomola.
Addressing a few points:

Almost all of the checks people are bringing up (Xerneas, Ho-oh, Kyogre...) can't be switched in. Among common pokemon, only defensive Arceus formes can switch into a move, and again even those need near-full hp. The fact that some speedier mons can beat it with a free switch isn't as fatal as people claim (should MGardevoir be C ranked in OU?) since it forces out pokemon found in almost any team (Pdon is notable, but Yveltal, Dialga, Darkrai, Lugia, Giratina... basically anything that isn't notably fast). This is what wallbreakers do, use defensive mons to switch-in; the fact that afterwards a speedy mon is brought in to scare them out is a drawback to literally all of them.

Being SR-weak doesn't really matter when Kyurem is only really brought in against slower stuff that it can OHKO, kind of how no one would give a shit if deoxys was SR-weak. With pokemon like Ho-oh in the S-rank, its not like carrying a defogger wastes a team slot, if that's really such a problem.

Finally, the current meta fits this pokemon rather well, since bulky pokemon are dominant right now and ice resistances are not very used in ubers nowadays.

I would argue it works well in B-, since it fulfills a niche well (wallbreaker) but requires team support. However, it at least belongs in C+; just play it for a few matches if you really think its as super-nichey and downright gimmicky as Arceus-Electric or Flygon.

 

[HappyHoopa05]

Wow, this thread is more toxic than I would have imagined. All but brought up my mom for suggesting a move...
I'll just stress again that no one thinks Kyurem-W is the best pokemon in the game, so much as that it performs better than, say, Alomomola.
Addressing a few points:

Almost all of the checks people are bringing up (Xerneas, Ho-oh, Kyogre...) can't be switched in. Among common pokemon, only defensive Arceus formes can switch into a move, and again even those need near-full hp. The fact that some speedier mons can beat it with a free switch isn't as fatal as people claim (should MGardevoir be C ranked in OU?) since it forces out pokemon found in almost any team (Pdon is notable, but Yveltal, Dialga, Darkrai, Lugia, Giratina... basically anything that isn't notably fast). This is what wallbreakers do, use defensive mons to switch-in; the fact that afterwards a speedy mon is brought in to scare them out is a drawback to literally all of them.

Being SR-weak doesn't really matter when Kyurem is only really brought in against slower stuff that it can OHKO, kind of how no one would give a shit if deoxys was SR-weak. With pokemon like Ho-oh in the S-rank, its not like carrying a defogger wastes a team slot, if that's really such a problem.

Finally, the current meta fits this pokemon rather well, since bulky pokemon are dominant right now and ice resistances are not very used in ubers nowadays.

I would argue it works well in B-, since it fulfills a niche well (wallbreaker) but requires team support. However, it at least belongs in C+; just play it for a few matches if you really think its as super-nichey and downright gimmicky as Arceus-Electric or Flygon.

To be honest i don't even know what Alomomola and Flygon are doing in C+ lmao, but it's worth notice as a wall breaker, it requires way much more then support, it's obvious that to fulfill that roll it'll depend from team preview to how the games well. Kyurem-W with specs, can do a hole but it's limited by its low speed tier and to Draco as a real damage-inducer, and we all know that with Xerneas running wild in many teams it's hard to just click Draco as it was in Gen 5. The Scarf Sets lacks power and it's pretty much awful. One trait that the choice sets share in common is the sickness called Stealth Rock, as they always need to switch. The LO is just bad, since it's not a hole inducer as specs and lacks enough speed tier to be considered a revenge killer. Right now i can't see Kyurem-W in C+, C- is more appropriated since it still doesn't suck balls as Reshiram.

 

[Nixon73]

I agree with you that specs is basically its only set (scarf sucks and LO loses to PDon). You bring up some good points. I just want to point out that 1. Xerneas loses if it is brought in against Ice Beam, so it isn't much of a switch in. It does mean that the team particularly needs a mon that can stop Geoxern, but basically every team needs that anyway. and 2. My point is basically exactly that with Flygon, Alomomola, etc. in C+, Kyurem is performing at a C+ level (re: C+ sucks, and I'm just saying Kyurem doesn't suck as much.)

 

[shrang]

Put forward an argument that Flygon and Alomomola should be dropped then. How good those two are really has no bearing on how good Kyu-W is, really, since they are completely different Pokemon. If they were both offensive Pokemon with shitty defensive niches, then maybe your point may make more sense. Even if we go by your reasoning, I'd argue that Flygon and Alomomola are better Pokemon overall. They both have solid defensive niches (Flygon checks Primal Groudon and SD Groundceus and Alomomola is a great pivot), and they both contribute to a team in significant ways (Defog for Flygon and massive Wishes for Alomo). Kyu-W on the other hand, is requires more support from a team than it offers back to the team (IMO).

Simply put, running Kyu-W is a higher risk for less of a return (it's beaten by a lot more things than it beats). Flygon/Alomomola, while they don't THAT much of a return, is much lower risk to run since you can't really go wrong with it if you use it in the proper team and they can both synergistically work with a team while Kyu-W is more of a solo act that requires a team to support it.

 

[bsu]

2 questions

whats the point of this thread really when the metagame is stale af and nothing will honestly change it lol

and genuine question, but how is p-don a check to skymin? LO air slash + seed flare KOs after rocks or like even the slightest bit of chip which isn't the hardest thing to do to p-don??

edit: actually 3 questions
after all this time i still don't get why people run mewtwo X? is it for the bulk up set? bc i feel like an all out attacker set is run better by Y, despite the physical/special, since psytrike hits physically, it gets aura sphere(albeit no stab), and they both run ice beam? is it bc it can run rock slide to KO ho-oh? genuinely curious lol

 

[Aberforth]

The fact you think the metagame is stale just shows you dont know much about ubers. Also it is useful for people just starting the tier to have a basis on what pokemon are good and what pokemon are not good. As an example of how much the metagame has shifted, just over a year and a half ago Darkceus was A+, Dragceus was C, normal Kyogre was B, Palkia was on the same rank as Deo-a, Mega Scizor was A-, and the Latis were both A+. (check the last edited tag, not the date of the first post tag). Some of that was just overranking (Kyogre) but some of it was legitimately the opinion of the playerbase.

The other two questions belong to the Questions and Answers thread, but as for Mewtwo, it has a niche as a physical attacker that can be useful vs Sample HO due to the fact that it 2hkos or ohkos everything aside from Geoxern, and can check Ekiller. It also has decent coverage that lets it smack other targets it has such as Yveltal and Ho-oh with Stone Edge. It also works decently vs Dialga-DeoA squads for much the same reason it is good vs Sample HO. Finally, it has better overall bulk than Mewtwo-Y, which has no worthwhile physical defense at all.

 

[bsu]

i guess i didn't say it the first time but i meant like whats the point of like continuing to discuss in the thread when not much is changing. i feel like at this point there cant possibly be really any significant changes left to be made but i guess thats just my opinion

and ty for mewtwo knowledge lol

 

[Krauersaut]

highly disagree... we were only a bit into oras as a meta when people began to realize how many stones were left unturned in xy; all it takes is a breath of fresh air. plus, what oras has that xy doesn't it an official meta status, as it will be preserved as an 'old gen of ubers' for purposes of stuff like upl, and i'm positive we'll see more developments in it both up until sun moon and long after.

 

[Hack]

Time for that info on the changes to this thread that was mentioned in the previous update. After all the different methods used over the year this to get the community's nominations into the rankings in a fair way, they all had their ups and downs. Before SM starts, we are going to try a council based method, just like OU's thread and the many other viability threads on Smogon. If this proves to be efficient, it will likely follow into the SM viability thread when the time rolls around. Each update we will gather and look over the community nominations and discuss them to see if they should move or not. If the council has an overwhelming opinion of a change towards a Pokemon's ranking, it may move without being mentioned in a nomination, but will come with an explanation as to why it moved. The council members themselves will be encouraged to post their reasoning should the movements be opposed. This is more of a filter compared to previous methods but trying it as ORAS ends is better than trying it at the start of SM. With that said, welcome your new council members!

Hack Fireburn Nayrz Level 56 ZoroarkForever dice

The final update will use the council and should come shortly.

 

[dice]

hi,

here's the updated viability rankings. i'll edit this post to include the old rankings as well and soon there will be a post describing some of the main changes and justifications behind them. general comments on the higher ranks are fine but pedantic nitpicking about the c's isn't rly gonna be very productive. thX!!!

new ranks!!

S Rank

S+

• 
  Primal Groudon

S

• 
  Xerneas
• 
  Mega Gengar
• Mega Salamence
• 
  Arceus-Normal

A Rank

A+

• 
  Darkrai
• 
  Ho-Oh
• 
  Deoxys-Attack
• Arceus-Water

A

• 
  Klefki
  
• 
  Yveltal
• 
  Dialga
• 
  Giratina-O
• 
  Landorus-T

A-

• 
  Excadrill
• Lugia
• 
  Deoxys-Speed
• Arceus-Ground
• Arceus-Ghost
• 
  Rayquaza
• 
  Latios

B Rank

B+

• 
  Mega Sableye
• Mega Diancie
• 
  Primal Kyogre
• 
  Tyranitar
• 
  Mega Kangaskhan
• 
  Ferrothorn
• Arceus-Dragon
• 
  Mega Mewtwo Y
• 
  Bronzong

B

• 
  Arceus-Rock
• 
  Cloyster
• 
  Mewtwo
• 
  Shaymin-Sky
• Arceus-Fairy
• 
  Mega Lucario

B-

• 
  Wobbuffet
• 
  Chansey
  
• 
  Blissey
• Mega Slowbro
• 
  Jirachi
• Arceus-Ice
• 
  Mega Mewtwo X
• 
  Skarmory

C Rank

C+

• 
  Smeargle
• 
  Blaziken
• 
  Zekrom
• 
  Giratina
• 
  Ditto
• Arceus-Poison
• Arceus-Steel
• 
  Arceus-Electric
• Arceus-Dark
• 
  Aegislash
• 
  Scolipede
• 
  Greninja
  
• 
  Mega Tyranitar

C

• 
  Cresselia
• 
  Latias
• 
  Palkia
• 
  Kyurem-White
• 
  Flygon
• Arceus-Fighting
• 
  Clefable

C-

• 
  Alomomola
• 
  Landorus
• 
  Gothitelle
• 
  Groudon
• 
  Mega Gyarados
• 
  Mega Mawile
• Arceus-Grass
• 
  Mega Aerodactyl

D Rank

• Arceus-Bug
• Arceus-Fire
• Arceus-Flying
• Arceus-Psychic
  
• 
  Deoxys
• 
  Deoxys-D
  
• 
  Genesect
• Hoopa-Unbound
  
• 
  Kyogre
  
• 
  Mega Blaziken
• 
  Reshiram

old ranks!!

S Rank

S+

• 
  Primal Groudon

S

• 
  Xerneas
• 
  Mega Gengar
• Mega Salamence
• 
  Arceus-Normal
• 
  Ho-Oh

A Rank

A+

• 
  Darkrai
• 
  Klefki
• 
  Deoxys-Attack
• Arceus-Water

A

• Arceus-Ground
• Mega Diancie
• Arceus-Ghost
• 
  Lugia
• 
  Dialga
• 
  Giratina-O

A-

• 
  Yveltal
• 
  Deoxys-Speed
• 
  Primal Kyogre
• 
  Rayquaza
• Arceus-Dragon
• 
  Latios
• 
  Landorus-T

B Rank

B+

• 
  Mewtwo
• 
  Mega Sableye
• 
  Arceus-Rock
• 
  Bronzong
• 
  Tyranitar
• 
  Excadrill
• 
  Mega Mewtwo Y
• 
  Skarmory
• 
  Mega Kangaskhan
• 
  Shaymin-Sky

B

• 
  Latias
• 
  Jirachi
• 
  Ferrothorn
• Arceus-Fairy
• 
  Zekrom
• 
  Mega Mewtwo X
  
• 
  Wobbuffet
• 
  Mega Lucario
  
• 
  Aegislash

B-

• 
  Chansey
  
• 
  Blissey
• 
  Cloyster
• 
  Scolipede
• Arceus-Dark
  
• Arceus-Ice
• 
  Mega Tyranitar
• 
  Greninja
• 
  Blaziken

C Rank

C+

• 
  Alomomola
• Mega Slowbro
• 
  Cresselia
  
• 
  Mega Scizor
• 
  Flygon
• 
  Mega Aerodactyl
  
• 
  Gothitelle
  
• 
  Giratina
• 
  Smeargle

C

• 
  Ditto
• 
  Palkia
• 
  Kyurem-White
• Arceus-Grass
• 
  Mega Gyarados
  
• 
  Arceus-Electric
  
• Arceus-Fighting
• 
  Clefable
  
• Arceus-Poison

C-

• 
  Groudon
• 
  Landorus
• 
  Mega Mawile
• Arceus-Steel

D Rank

• Arceus-Bug
• Arceus-Fire
• Arceus-Flying
• Arceus-Psychic
  
• 
  Deoxys
• 
  Deoxys-D
  
• 
  Genesect
• Hoopa-Unbound
  
• 
  Kyogre
  
• 
  Mega Blaziken
• 
  Reshiram

 

[Cynara]

New ranks look solid so good job in making the effort in those. My only main concern is how Ground and Ghost Arceus seem under valued right now being shifted down due to other rises and I'm sure other people can echo this.

Ghost Arceus especially has the threatening offensive presence and is the best offensive arceus after Extreme Killer, with an effective calm mind set and traditional swords dance, Calm Mind in particular is really effective right now due to being able to break down certain balance teams, while adding sub into the mix makes it very threatening and essentially able to win the stall matchup on its own with Sr down, once spdef walls such as Tyranitar and blissey are weakened enough.

Ground Arceus is also rather versatile again with the classic Swords Dance set and with special groundceus being a glue to some offense builds such as Mgar / deo-a / Rayquaza / Arceus Ground / Xerneas / Primal Don as a role compressor for these similar types of builds to being a reactive doorstop to Mega Salamence, Primal Groudon, actually beating Ho-oh one vs one with Toxic and Rayquaza. Cm makes an interesting niche and unprepared for set, despite being kinda mediocre in the meta, as it sweep through unprepared teams, and feeds off the habits of certain tournament players who are unlikely to bring hooh balance, though it pairs nicely with banded tyranitar to deal nicely with this.

Personally I would like to see both above Landorus-T in the A rank, though top of A- would make a compromise, if you disagree with this, anyways this is truly defined final revision of the current metagame, so good job once again.

 

[Aberforth]

I personally feel like they're fine where they are. You're overhyping both of them by not stating the flaws of SD Ghostceus's stabs being either weak or a 2 turn move, and while SD groundceus is very threatening, the special Groundceus set is not enough to elevate it above things like Deo-S and Lugia in my view, and in practice it isn't as effective as a Ho-oh/Pdon check as you're making it out to be due to the non-resistance to fire.

 

[Cynara]

I personally feel like they're fine where they are. You're overhyping both of them by not stating the flaws of SD Ghostceus's stabs being either weak or a 2 turn move, and while SD groundceus is very threatening, the special Groundceus set is not enough to elevate it above things like Deo-S and Lugia in my view, and in practice it isn't as effective as a Ho-oh/Pdon check as you're making it out to be due to the non-resistance to fire.

I strongly disagree that I'm overhyping them, since I'm only suggesting to rise a few subranks at the maximum, I seriously don't know how you can compare it to deo-s and lugia (lol) and on the contrary I feel you're overvaluing deo-s, when the crux of deo-s HO is not even that effective at highest level play and is outclassed by Dialga and/or deo-a offenses and the confined number of builds it amounts to, one is a sample and the other is a RMT aka the mega Gengar alternative.

Back on track, even with ghostceus flaws, which I can admit it has and sub cm is probably better right now, they are still the best offensive Arceus after ExtremeKiller, Arceus Ghost on Sand Ho's and Arceus Ground on teams such as the one above / balance/bulky offense teams. The non resistance to fire is a fair point, but you're still treating it like an arceus water even after it has an analysis that outlines what the set does, its a role compressor for offensive and where Arceus Water cant fit these kinds of builds.

Both arceus are pretty versatile and are quite easy to justice on builds, If this was for the top of A or to the A+ subrank then I could understand your justification for overhyping, but its not, where they are placed right now is quite laughable honestly.

 

[Hack]

I strongly disagree that I'm overhyping them, since I'm only suggesting to rise a few subranks at the maximum, I seriously don't know how you can compare it to deo-s and lugia (lol) and on the contrary I feel you're overvaluing deo-s, when the crux of deo-s HO is not even that effective at highest level play and is outclassed by Dialga and/or deo-a offenses and the confined number of builds it amounts to, one is a sample and the other is a RMT aka the mega Gengar alternative.

Back on track, even with ghostceus flaws, which I can admit it has and sub cm is probably better right now, they are still the best offensive Arceus after ExtremeKiller, Arceus Ghost on Sand Ho's and Arceus Ground on teams such as the one above / balance/bulky offense teams. The non resistance to fire is a fair point, but you're still treating it like an arceus water even after it has an analysis that outlines what the set does, its a role compressor for offensive and where Arceus Water cant fit these kinds of builds.

Both arceus are pretty versatile and are quite easy to justice on builds, If this was for the top of A or to the A+ subrank then I could understand your justification for overhyping, but its not, where they are placed right now is quite laughable honestly.

I will do my best to justify the ranking of these pkmn now.

When looking at viability, the council concluded that the term itself is multifaceted and using consistency performance as a sole metric isn't enough. This lead us to adopt the follow framework for ranking:

• Usage - it is relevant to attempt making a correlation between a pkmn and its raw usage stats. Klefki is an example of such a pkmn.
• General threat level - this can be in the categories of support, defense or offense. How much can this pkmn contribute to a won game? Ho-oh or Deoxys-A are prime examples of pkmn with a high threat level.
• Metagame (teambuilding) impact - it is important to look at what strains the pkmn puts on building, how it has shaped the tier thus far etc. Darkrai is a good example of a pkmn with insane teambuilding impact.

The lugia/deo-s/groundceus/ghostceus case

Usage - from a theoretical only standpoint, the mentioned arceus formes have to compete for a slot by virtue of opportunity cost. Since the best arceus forme on offensive teams is undisputably arceus-normal, ground- and ghostceus are relegated lower usage per default. Meanwhile, lugia and deo-s aren't restricted in the same way, but it should be noted that stall is worse than offense in high level play, and deo-s offense isn't particularly good at the moment. Statistically, ubers open stats deem deo-s to be the most used pkmn out of the four, followed in order by groundceus, lugia and ghostceus. They all sit in a similar usage percentage.

General threat level - deo-s is very threatening. It doesn't do this by itself but it makes for one of the most straightforward support pkmn. It isn't the best vs good teams but it manages to get SR down, pretty much always. Lugia is threatening defensively, it can be an offensive team's worst nightmare when SR isn't up. It is a very easy pkmn to check for more defensive teams, but offensive teams are more common in the tier. Groundceus and ghostceus aren't too similar, their only real shared trait is usually being SD sweepers. Groundceus can do more than that but those sets should generally only be used for counterstyling purposes (Hack opinion). Offensively speaking both are very offensively threatening pkmn but there are 9-10 pkmn with stronger offensive qualities. That doesn't scream A-rank.

Metagame impact - starting with deo-s, many people still adopt the "can I beat standard HO"-test when building. A team's viability (or lack thereof) can be correlated to its performance vs deo-s cheese. In terms of impact, deo-s is almost up with the S-rankers. In similar fashion, every good offensive team needs a back-up plan for a lugia on a hazardless field. Lugia is impactful also because it partly spawned innovation of certain sets (jolly sd sr pdon is the most notable example). Groundceus and ghostceus then? Well, sometimes builds have been deemed groundceus weak, it affording recover has triggered some adaption to checks (giratina-o running tox). It hasn't been quintessential to any big playstyle, and it is a ground-type, meaning teams will have an immunity to to its STAB. This doesn't mean it has the same checks and counters as pdon, but it means teams never need to prepare explicitly for it. SD Ghostceus is much more threatening than groundceus is. But at the same time it can't afford recover, meaning it will die period. It also can't shield itself from any status and it hates all of them with a passion, infact its SD set probably the most status weak set in the entire tier all things considered. No one really goes "ghostceus will 6-0 me" because it never really does in reality. A stray status (keys, waterceus), general bulky hard hitters (pdon, mence) or fastmons (darkrai, gar) keep it at bay.

Summary: so with medium usage on all four there is no differentiation to be made in that dimension. Threat level wise, groundceus and ghostecus are both not the biggest threats in the tier. Deo-s has the potential to be threatening in conjunction with the usual strong mons but it has fallen off. Lugia's preferred playstyle is questionable but it does wall offense like nothing else. In terms of metagame impact, deo-s > lugia > groundceus > ghostceus, in a very clear cut way. Lugia we ranked above deo-s nonetheless, it does in general perform better (relation to the second criteria) which tipped the scales there.

 

[Cynara]

Yeah, Okay after more fore thought and giving this post a good read, I'm basically convinced on the integrity and considerable of how pokemon are ranked nowadays and I would somewhat agree Ground and Ghost Arceus are fine where they are and not a central metagame threat in this prescriptive as I thought they are. feel like my nom was more of a reactive post seeing them being lowered so much without much thought process.

 

[Minority]

Going to talk about raw usage and how this thread should weigh it. I would think this should go without saying, but the capabilities of Pokemon are not dependent upon the rates at which they are used. Shuca Dialga doesn't magically become worse at checking Mega Salamence if one month its usage drops from 11% usage to 3% usage. Nor does Klefki become better at checking Latios if its usage in Ubers Open Finals increases to 24%. This should also go without saying, but usage stats do not perfectly correlate with the number of consistent builds a specific Pokemon can find itself on. If nobody brought an Arceus-Ground offense for the month of October that wouldn't mean that Arceus-Ground fits on zero builds.

The point: While usage stats can be indicative of Pokemon capabilities or the number of teams they can fit on, they are not an independent variable for the equation of viability. The way usage is phrased in this new ranking system seems to treat usage stats as harder evidence than they actually are. The VR thread should aim to rank Pokemon based on the underlying nature of the tier, which requires more judgment than saying something along the lines of "Giratina-O had more usage in Ubers Open than Arceus-Water, so it should be ranked higher".

It seems as though selective judgment has been applied to weighing Pokemon on raw stats in this latest update. In other words, it's as though the usage of certain Pokemon has been voided when weighing viability. Here's one example: Mewtwo had a relatively high usage in Ubers Open, less than a 0.5% difference from Deoxys-S, yet it sits in B rank below over a dozen Pokemon that it beat when it came to usage stats. Do I think Mewtwo needs to be ranked higher? Not really. In the case of Mewtwo the council went with a judgment call that is better at measuring how Mewtwo actually performs, rather than blindly following usage stats.

I want to point this out early on because I don't want to see posts on how Mewtwo needs a rise to A because it is used almost as much as Deoxys-A, or how Yveltal should be A+ because it was used more than Arceus-Water, Klefki, Deoxys-A, and Darkrai. The takeaway is that usage stats are a poor (I would also say lazy) argument for VR placement. With that out of the way I want to talk about Arceus-Ground and Arceus-Ghost.


The reason why I think the ranking of these two sits wrong with a number of people is due to how they're perceived as threats. Swords Dance Arceus forms (only acknowledging good ones like EKiller, Ground, and Ghost) function as win conditions or intermediate breakers. Most of the highest ranked Pokemon (Primal Groudon, Xerneas, Mega Salamence, etc.) fill similar roles in their most dangerous sets. When examining how a build handles threats, Swords Dance Arceus forms are pretty high on that list. This is probably why people find it strange for Arceus-Ground and Arceus-Ghost to below many Pokemon that aren't considered nearly as early on.

If you look at the 5 Pokemon in A rank, 4 of these Pokemon function largely as utility / glue Pokemon. I'm willing to bet most teambuilders examine if their team has a defense for SD Arceus forms before they consider how they handle something like Landorus-T. The reason for this: most teams have built in checks to utility Pokemon (Gengar is a huge exception, which is part of why it's ranked so high). While effective utility / glue Pokemon deserved to be ranked highly when they do their job exceptionally well or on a variety of builds (see Klefki), they aren't exactly the first considerations when it comes to examining a team. Although they are far from unbeatable, I'd say most people consider SD Arceus forms to be able to put a larger offensive strain on a team than something like Giratina-O.

Don't confuse these last two paragraphs as an argument for them to be raised.

 

[Blim]

Should Landorus-T be ranked so high at A? [above things like Lugia, Arceus Ground / Ghost, and Rayquaza + Latios]

According to Hack's criteria, I'd say it meets 1/3 of them.

Usage - Landorus-T barely cracked top 20-25 in usage in every round of the recent ubers open, from my experience it's not something I see all too often either.

General threat level - I've seen CS Landorus perform well in certain games, establishing momentum with u turn, checking darkrai, and sometimes even sweeping late game with earthquake after the opposing team has been sufficiently weakened enough. But I think this has more to do with match-up rather than Landorus-T consistently winning games, but I can't honestly say that Landorus-T doesn't contribute to won games, I'm just not sure if it's abilities to "win games" is greater than any of the pokemon in A-.

Metagame (teambuilding) impact - I'd argue that every pokemon in A- puts more strain on teambuilding than Landorus-T does. For example, SD Ghost Arceus, while not being the easiest to fit on a team, puts a relativity good strain on team-building due to it's lack of counters / checks outside of yveltal and ability to find set-up opportunities mid-game or late-game, swords dance up, and immediately threaten the opposing team. Arceus-Ground's offensive swords dance set and it's defensive utility set are both huge threats to many balance builds, while lugia is arguably the best physical wall in the tier, Rayquaza / Latios are both also obviously bigger offensive threats than landorus-T is.

Overall I suppose I'm just questioning what role as a "utility / glue" mon is Landorus-T performing so well that warrants its placement in A above these much more "traditional / powerful threats" such as lugia, arc ground / arc ghost, rayquaza / latios?

Lastly, great job with the viability rankings, whatever this new system is we should carry it over in the next generation, it's highly accurate of the current metagame. Minority Suspect's post is also great, thanks.

 

[Hack]

Well maybe threat level was poorly worded but utility is a metric considered in the second criteria too. I will let dice argue harder for Lando-T placement though, he was the one pushing for it