Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII

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Cresselia~~

Junichi Masuda likes this!!
He just said it was "almost time" for the announcement (which the next one is supposed to be on the 4th). You're jumping the shark if you're assuming that means tomorrow. Masuda is in London for the Symphonic Evolutions show.
No, Masuda said he was being interviewed about Sun and Moon in his Twitter.
And he mentioned he's having a media tour, and will be going to San Francisco after London.

I think the Riddler said "Today is the dusk before the announcement", which means we are getting info tomorrow.
 

Pikachu315111

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Branching off entirely from previous discussions, I've realized that Wishiwashi is one of the most interesting concepts for a Pokemon that we've ever seen. I'd like to explore the lore behind it - to be specific, its school form.

Individually, it is not unlike a minnow - it's small and likely to have stats rivaling Magikarp and Feebas. Nothing special here - it's just a fish. But they can also come together into a school to form a creature so terrifying that even Gyarados flee from it. Now, given the school's cohesion and its resemblance to a huge fish, it's clear that they form a hive mind organism, where each individual fish temporarily loses its free will to under the same consciousness. The question is... whose mind is it? The way I see it, there are three possible theories: 1) It isn't a proper "one mind" scenario; every individual Wishiwashi simply knows where to go (like Vespiquen using Attack/Defend/Heal order); 2) the one that sent out the SOS signal gains control (like Zygarde); and 3) the combined organism has a completely different mind.

We can eliminate the first scenario by thinking from a gameplay perspective: When battling a School Form Wishiwashi in the wild, if it operated under the idea that every fish knows on its own where to go in the school, the Trainer should be able to catch hundreds of them by continuously chucking Pokeballs at the school. Assuming that catching the Pokemon ends the battle (as has always been the case), we can therefore deduce that, on some level, Wishiwashi-S is actually one being. However, it is also possible that Wishiwashi will only be catchable in its individual form (attempting to catch its School form might either simply fail or give a message similar to when you attempt to throw a Pokeball when there are two targets).

The second scenario seems more likely. After all, the school has been seen to disperse (breaking the hive mind) if it takes enough damage; this could mean that the leader can no longer focus enough to control the group. The only problems with it would stem from if two individuals send out SOS signals simultaneously (but in range of each other), and if one signals but only a few others come to its aid. In the case of two simultaneous SOS signals, what would probably happen is that they would rush towards each other, and then the stronger one would become the leader while the weaker one joins the school. This would still protect both of them from danger, as "even Gyarados flee from Wishiwashi's School form". In the case of one signaling but not having enough allies to form a school, I think what would happen is that the leader would still try to assemble the hive mind, but realize there aren't enough others to form a threat. Then they would disband and change tactics to running away.

In the third scenario, a sort of "neural network" between the brains of each fish forms, essentially creating a whole new entity. Although it's up for debate what would happen if you tossed a Pokeball at this conglomerate, it would solve the problem of two singular Wishiwashi SOS'ing simultaneously (they both assimilate into the school) and one receiving insufficient help (the neural power isn't strong enough to form the hive mind creature, therefore nothing happens). And if the school were subjected to some incident that would force them apart or otherwise disturb the order enough (such as, again, taking enough damage), it would simply shatter the network, causing each individual fish to re-awaken with no memory of being part of the school.

Obviously all of this is pure speculation; I encourage people to argue against me, add more details, or suggest alternate possibilities. Let's get the discussion going!
I'm imagining it's maybe a mix of all of these? Wishiwashi starts off as an individual, but when one activates its Schooling Ability they enter a sort of hive mind and create School Form (option 2) which is sort of its own being just with the operating capacity of hundreds of Wishiwashi (option 3, think the Geth from Mass Effect). The one that activating Schooling may not be the leader but it could be acting as a "bonding unit", even when formed it's giving off the SOS signal inside to keep School Form together until the threat has been dealt with (so a bit of Option 2 except not in control). As for why you don't catch a whole school of Wishiwashi, well we know School Form breaks apart when attacked or below half health so the stamina of the "bonding unit" must play a factor. Like it's so busy giving out a SOS Signal when attacked or a PokeBall is thrown it temporarily stuns the "bonding" Wishiwashi which gives the others a chance to flee leaving it behind. And obviously when its below half health it's just too weak to even give out/maintain the SOS Signal to form School Form.

I remember seeing a School Wishiwashi in an ingame cutscene that was shown in one of the trailers. It looked like one of those 'totem' wild Pokémon bosses.
Not sure where it was confirmed but Bulbapedia says that, yes, the Totem Pokemon for the trail assigned by Lana (the Water-type specialist Trial Captain) is a School Form Wishiwashi which is terrorizing a local shoreline.

Turns out you can only catch Wishiwashi's school form if you use a Net Ball.
Even though it won't catachable multiple (not that it needs to) a Net Ball would still be very effective being a Water-type.

Z-Crystal names for the elemental ones via the Z-Ring toy:
Grassium Z, Firium Z, Waterium Z, Steelium Z, Rockium Z, Poisonium Z, Normalium Z, Fightinium Z, Electrium Z, Ghostium Z, Buginium Z, Darkinium Z.

Okay, so they go along with what we saw with Snorlium Z: All Z-Crystals end with "-ium Z". Though I have to ask why the "Z" at the end? There's no other item that'll be named like them and I can't imagine we'll be getting other letters (like with the Charizard and Mewtwo Mega Stones).
But let's add another layer of confusion. For the most part it's the element's name with "ium Z" at the end (Grass, Water, Steel, Rock, Poison, Normal, & Ghost). If the element ends in an "e" (Fire) or has an "i" near the end (Electric) they'll cut it short which makes sense. But of course we got to have some off ones.
  • Fighting: Why didn't they just make it Fightium Z? "Well it's not Fight-type, it's FightING-type". So you're saying if a word ends with "-ing" that they'll only cut out the "g"? Okay, still odd but I guess makes sense... until you get to the next two.
  • Bug & Dark: Where did that middle "in" come from? It's "Bug-type" and "Dark-type", not "Buging-type" (which would be a misspelling on top of that) and "Darking-type" (which I question is even a word). What was wrong with "Bugium Z" and "Darkium Z"? Were they considered too short and/or not appealing enough sounding (if so why was "Firium Z" kept short?)? And this has made the other ones hard to predict because who knows if they'll add unnecessary syllables to them.
And finally, the symbols on the box are different from the symbols we previous were shown (here and here):
  • Steel: It's now a hexagonal bolt nut instead of a cube (though I kind of like it better).
  • Rock: Is still a rock but instead of laying flat with uneven sides its symmetrical with one side colored out.
  • Poison: Instead of a skull & crossbones its an oozing bubble.
  • Normal: Is still a circle but is a solid circle while before it was made to look like a Poke Ball. Also it's colored gray instead of white.
  • Fighting: It's now a boxing glove instead of a clenched fist.
  • Electric: It's now an outline of a thunderbolt with flat points instead of a solid colored thunderbolt with pointy ends.
  • Ghost: It's now a bat wing (why?) instead of a wispy, stereotypical ghost-shape. Also it's colored blue instead of purple... what?
  • Bug: It's now a pair of butterfly wings instead of an entire beetle's backside.
  • Dark: It's now a... silhouette of tall, surrounding structures(?) instead of a... crescent moon(?). Actually, thinking about it, it's also now using two colors since it's using white to act like a setting sun (the original only used one, the glowing effect gave the empty/negative space a crimson color).
Why the changes? "Who cares?" you retort. I guess it doesn't matter in the long run but the inconsistency just bothers me, especially when the original symbols were better looking aside from the Steel one. Also if the symbols don't match the ones in the game/will show up when the crystals glow then why aren't you using the symbol from the games/when the crystals glow? To keep it a surprise? Well maybe you shouldn't have told us the crystals you're giving or their names!

Anyway, I'll guess I'll end this trying to predict the names of the other elemental Z-Crystals: Flyinium Z, Groundium Z, Psychium Z, Icinium Z, Dragonium Z, and Fairium Z. Also Alolan Raichium Z, Pikachium Z, and Eevinium Z.



 
This doesn't seem to have been posted yet so I'll just leave this here:

Nintendo of Italy issued a press release stating that the annual Milan Games Show wouldn't feature the demo of Pokemon Sun and Pokemon Moon.

Quest’anno, le demo di Pokémon Sole e Pokémon Luna, in arrivo il 23 novembre, e The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, lanciato sulla prossima console Nintendo, nome in codice NX, nel 2017, non saranno pronte per Milan Games Week.
translation said:
This year, the demos of Pokemon Sun and Pokémon Moon , due to arrive on November 23rd, and The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, to be launched on the next Nintendo console codenamed NX, in 2017, will not be ready for the Milan Games Week.
Nintendo of Italy Official press release

This does confirm in a roundabout way that there is a demo coming out at a later date. I guess that was to be expected but there's the confirmation, so yay! I do wonder if it'll be ORAS all over again though, with the whole game datamined weeks before the actual release.
 
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Pikachu315111

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This doesn't seem to have been posted yet so I'll just leave this here:

Nintendo of Italy issued a press release stating that the annual Milan Games Show wouldn't feature the demo of Pokemon Sun and Pokemon Moon.

Nintendo of Italy Official press release

This does confirm in a roundabout way that there is a demo coming out at a later date. I guess that was to be expected but there's the confirmation, so yay! I do wonder if it'll be ORAS all over again though, with the whole game datamined weeks before the actual release.
The ORAS Demo was released on October 15, about a month and a week before the release of ORAS on November 21st. Sun & Moon are set to be released November 18th/23rd, and Milan Games Week 2016 is set for October 14-16, so it sounds like the demo will be released not even a month apart from the release of the full game. At that point I'm wondering if there's even a point of a demo... not that I'm complaining, especially if it gives us free item.

I'm wondering if it's taking so long is because they're going through files and getting rid of the ones that might contain spoilers for the full game. I wonder if it would be possible to build the demo alongside the game that way as things are added they can exclude it from the demo version and release it possible a few month before the games release, maybe even adding more content to the demo as new stuff is announced to keep people coming back.
 

Pyritie

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I wonder if it would be possible to build the demo alongside the game that way as things are added they can exclude it from the demo version and release it possible a few month before the games release, maybe even adding more content to the demo as new stuff is announced to keep people coming back.
I work in game dev and this is certainly possible but entirely dependent on how well your project is organized and whether you planned on this since the beginning. If you plan on making a demo and have everything organized in a certain way, it's easy, but if you have to suddenly try and make one by taking the base game and chopping stuff off of it, it's going to be a lot harder.

Given game freak's track record of incompetence, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter.
 
According to Serebii, Exeggutor was revealed to have access to a new move: Dragon Hammer. This heavily implies that Alola Forms will have vastly different movepools from their Kanto counterparts.
I have a feeling this was the move Alolan Exeggutor used in its debut trailer
It was already heavily implied, given that a fire type now has an ice type form. The question is what happens to egg moves.
I think what they were trying to say is that Alolan forms will possibly get completely new moves that we haven't seen in the games yet that can't be used by their counterparts.
 

Cresselia~~

Junichi Masuda likes this!!
He just said it was "almost time" for the announcement (which the next one is supposed to be on the 4th). You're jumping the shark if you're assuming that means tomorrow. Masuda is in London for the Symphonic Evolutions show.
Maybe you are right.
But I don't understand why people feel this is what the Riddler meant.
I read what the Riddler said many times, and still think he says "tomorrow" (which should be today)
 
Now I really want them to bring back the "Headbutt tree"-mechanic just so I can use my Alolan Exeggutor to Headbutt trees.

Tree on tree violence needs to end.

On another subject, what is generally thought of moves becoming Z-Moves? By that I mean a Pokemon's signature move becoming a signature Z-Move, or maybe a Z-Move being introduced which is based off its normal move counterpart? This is all just speculation off the top of my head, but Snorlax's Z-Move seemed like a really strong Body Slam. And while I wouldn't consider Body Slam the signature move of Snorlax, it's definitely the first Pokemon that comes to mind when I think of Body Slam. Maybe Alolan Exeggutor will get a Z-Move similar to Barrage?
 
Grassium Z, Firium Z, Waterium Z, Steelium Z, Rockium Z, Poisonium Z, Normalium Z, Fightinium Z, Electrium Z, Ghostium Z, Buginium Z, Darkinium Z.

Okay, so they go along with what we saw with Snorlium Z: All Z-Crystals end with "-ium Z". Though I have to ask why the "Z" at the end? There's no other item that'll be named like them and I can't imagine we'll be getting other letters (like with the Charizard and Mewtwo Mega Stones).
But let's add another layer of confusion. For the most part it's the element's name with "ium Z" at the end (Grass, Water, Steel, Rock, Poison, Normal, & Ghost). If the element ends in an "e" (Fire) or has an "i" near the end (Electric) they'll cut it short which makes sense. But of course we got to have some off ones.
  • Fighting: Why didn't they just make it Fightium Z? "Well it's not Fight-type, it's FightING-type". So you're saying if a word ends with "-ing" that they'll only cut out the "g"? Okay, still odd but I guess makes sense... until you get to the next two.
  • Bug & Dark: Where did that middle "in" come from? It's "Bug-type" and "Dark-type", not "Buging-type" (which would be a misspelling on top of that) and "Darking-type" (which I question is even a word). What was wrong with "Bugium Z" and "Darkium Z"? Were they considered too short and/or not appealing enough sounding (if so why was "Firium Z" kept short?)? And this has made the other ones hard to predict because who knows if they'll add unnecessary syllables to them.
And finally, the symbols on the box are different from the symbols we previous were shown (here and here):
  • Steel: It's now a hexagonal bolt nut instead of a cube (though I kind of like it better).
  • Rock: Is still a rock but instead of laying flat with uneven sides its symmetrical with one side colored out.
  • Poison: Instead of a skull & crossbones its an oozing bubble.
  • Normal: Is still a circle but is a solid circle while before it was made to look like a Poke Ball. Also it's colored gray instead of white.
  • Fighting: It's now a boxing glove instead of a clenched fist.
  • Electric: It's now an outline of a thunderbolt with flat points instead of a solid colored thunderbolt with pointy ends.
  • Ghost: It's now a bat wing (why?) instead of a wispy, stereotypical ghost-shape. Also it's colored blue instead of purple... what?
  • Bug: It's now a pair of butterfly wings instead of an entire beetle's backside.
  • Dark: It's now a... silhouette of tall, surrounding structures(?) instead of a... crescent moon(?). Actually, thinking about it, it's also now using two colors since it's using white to act like a setting sun (the original only used one, the glowing effect gave the empty/negative space a crimson color).
Why the changes? "Who cares?" you retort. I guess it doesn't matter in the long run but the inconsistency just bothers me, especially when the original symbols were better looking aside from the Steel one. Also if the symbols don't match the ones in the game/will show up when the crystals glow then why aren't you using the symbol from the games/when the crystals glow? To keep it a surprise? Well maybe you shouldn't have told us the crystals you're giving or their names!

Anyway, I'll guess I'll end this trying to predict the names of the other elemental Z-Crystals: Flyinium Z, Groundium Z, Psychium Z, Icinium Z, Dragonium Z, and Fairium Z. Also Alolan Raichium Z, Pikachium Z, and Eevinium Z.
I see it has a play on words. You know bug-ing-um.
 
So Exeggutor now can use Woodhammer and Dragon Hammer?! Master of hammer wielding confirmed. I don't think they said it was unique to A-Exeggutor I think.

That means that besides the obvious new adapteed movepool change of Alola forms some Pokemon are gonna get new moves (Not that surprising though, it was implied that A-Marowak has a new move.)

I'm more interested in how many Pokemon are going to have acces to them.
 
So now we have Wood Hammer, Crab Hammer, Hammer Arm, and Dragon Hammer.

You all know what's next: Iron Hammer.
Then someone hacks a Shedinja to give it those moves.

Get it? Wonder Guard? Can't touch this?

... forget it.

Now that I think of it, given that the Alolan Vulpix family is of Ice-type Pokemon that were once Fire-type Pokemon, maybe they are getting Scald.

Well, I dunno... it would kind of make sense to me to keep some kind of heating up capabilities.
 
If Exeggutor is gonna be a top tier Dragon I'll laugh so hard... It'd be truly wonderful. As already said by others, I really hope Dragon Hammer will be a decent move and widespread enough: physically speaking the Dragon type has fairly mediocre moves, with either strong hindrance (confusion with Outrage, low accuracy with Dragon Rush) or low power (Dragon Claw and Double Chop), and it's no more OP offensively as it was before 6th gen (in fact many dragons don't even use their dragon STAB nowadays, and fairy types will surely increase both in numbers and diversity). They should indeed improve even current moves (for example giving more power or accuracy to Dragon Rush and Double Chop), but a new move is very welcome... Something like Dragon type Close Combat/Double Edge/Head Smash, or even a physical Draco Meteor would be perfect additions. Poor things like Haxorus would love it, and it would fit thematically (while I can't really see a Salamence using an "hammer" move, already OP dragons could just not get it).

So now we have Wood Hammer, Crab Hammer, Hammer Arm, and Dragon Hammer.


You all know what's next: Iron Hammer.

Are they all "hammers" in Japanese? I would love an hammer-buffing ability and even an hammer "theme" pokémon. And yeah, Steel too need better offensive move, a powerful hammer move would be outstanding.
 
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Are they all "hammers" in Japanese? I would love an hammer-buffing ability and even an hammer "theme" pokémon. And yeah, Steel too need better offensive move, a powerful hammer move would be outstanding.
He meant Iron Hammer, as in Iron Fist, as hammer increasing power ability, like iron fist does for punches, and just like our crab cannon master, I would like a pokemon learning those 4 hammer moves with a hammer boosting ability, seems fun
 
Are they all "hammers" in Japanese? I would love an hammer-buffing ability and even an hammer "theme" pokémon. And yeah, Steel too need better offensive move, a powerful hammer move would be outstanding.
They all have Hammer in their name in Japanese, but Hammer Arm just refers to the motion of the arm swing in martial arts, and qualifies as a punching move.
 
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