Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings

[Tymano]

| 52 | Rotom-Heat | 10 | 1.24% | 20.00% |

Can we please move this down, it's actually terrible (this is from cumulative stats btw.) I know that some good players will defend this thing because it has a niche, but its niche isn't really a good one (as seen by its tiny win and usage rate.) It is an electric that struggles against waters and Azumarill, and it just doesn't do enough in general to get its tier 2 ranking in my opinion. Beating Thundurus + Amoonguss is a unique niche I will admit, but having overheat as a secondary stab sucks major dick as it is too passive after it clicks it, which forces it out, most likely putting the player who is using Heattom in a bad position. Lower this thing to 3 or 4.

 

[BlueSkiddo]

18. Rotom-Heat -> 3?????

18. sure, wynaut

HE HAS SPOKEN

 

[Dawg]

Latios 1.5 -> 2

A mon that probably was a lot better than it is now.
Has awful matchups vs a number of common pokemon, and is ohkoed by almost all of the most popular megas in the tier, struggles against azumarill and steels. Its saving grace might have been a jirachi ban (Which would have led to more amoongus usage) but without this, it must rely on phenomenal positioning to otherwise do a worse job than hydreigon.

 

[Koekiekoekje]

I agree on Latios to 2 since it is walled by all steel types and its psychic-type attacks are too weak to even OHKO an Amoonguss, which should be its niche over Hydreigon. If you want a Keldeo check also, you take Amoonguss. There are better speed control users out there and since Latios is walled by so many pokemon in dou, it often wastes his own tailwind turns.
I'm glad people finally came to the conclusion Gengar is not tier 1.5 worthy (despite people calling me an idiot for having the 'preposterous' opinion Gengar is actually bad and outclassed as a supportive mon).

 

[Fran]

latios doesnt loose to heatran of its carring hp ground does it? latios + fire is really threatening and it has far better sweeping than any hydreigon core you can come up with. 350 speed makes it so much more reliable, not to mention the amoongus, sylveon, keldeo or hydreigon match ups. while hydreigon has it a few better match ups than lati does its definetly not deserving of beeing higher in the viability rankings

 

[Koekiekoekje]

I disagree with you that Latios + fire type has better sweeping capacities than any Hydreigon core. Hydreigon + Diancie or even Metagross still is pretty great and Latios + fire type is stopped cold by Diancie. I'm in general not a fan of both Hydreigon and Latios but moving any of them to tier 2 is maybe too harsh since thats the tier where Salamence is at.

 

[Test Bot #]

The thing that Latios more useful than Hydreigon is that it has a nice speed Tier, outspeeding most mons in the meta. And although Latios gets walled by most Steel types, it's worth saying that Kyurem-B also gets walled by Steel types; should Kyurem-B sent to Tier 2 just because it gets walled by Steel types? Latios is also the fastest Dragon type around, being definite threats to both Kyurem-B and Hydreigon. Simply put, it's a hit and run mon (except in Sucker Punch).

Amoonguss? I'm not using that to beat Keldeo or Terrakion. I'm sorry, but sometimes I rather eliminate them right on the spot; it's lack of speed allows the opponent do what they got to do before getting spored. Also, an Amoonguss that invests more to survive Psychic is more vulnerable to Psyshock, which is also common.

 

[emma]

The thing that Latios more useful than Hydreigon is that it has a nice speed Tier, outspeeding most mons in the meta. And although Latios gets walled by most Steel types, should Kyurem-B sent to Tier 2 just because it gets walled by Steel types? Latios is also the fastest Dragon type around, being definite threats to both Kyurem-B and Hydreigon. Simply put, it's a hit and run mon (except in Sucker Punch).

Amoonguss? I'm not using that to beat Keldeo or Terrakion. I'm sorry, but sometimes I rather eliminate them right on the spot; it's lack of speed allows the opponent do what they got to do before getting spored. Also, an Amoonguss that invests more to survive Psychic is more vulnerable to Psyshock, which is also common.

252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 388-460 (115.1 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Kyub and Latios do two different things, one is a sub attacker and the other is focused around speed and immediate power. its unfair to compare the two since they do different things, but if you want to, kyub doesn't give azurachi free setup due to sub/ep while latios does. it also has a better matchup vs. ferro/aegi as it can sub on the seed/shield and safely 3hko or potentially 2hko while lati doesnt do anything and gets ohkod. also note that kyub ohkos tran and aegi in blade form.

 

[Test Bot #]

252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 388-460 (115.1 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Kyub and Latios do to different things, one is a sub attacker and the other is focused around speed and immediate power. its unfair to compare the two since they do different things, but if you want to, kyub doesn't give azurachi free setup due to sub/ep while latios does. it also has a better watchup vs. ferro/aegi as it can sub on the seed/shield and safely 3hko for potentially 2hko while lati doesnt do anything and gets ohkod. also note that kyub ohkos tran and aegi in shield form.

Obviously Heatran (as all Dragons can KO it), and you make a good point about other Steel types although tedious, and I don't think experienced players would be stupid enough to Leech Seed or even let Kyurem-B have a Sub despite the possibility of losing their Steel type mon. :/

 

[CorruptedOmega]

Volcanion 1 --> 1.5

Although it boasts a great STAB combination and all around decent stats, Volcanion suffers a lot because of its weaknesses to common threats such Landorus, Thundurus, and Water-types, among others. Without a boosting item such as Life Orb it doesn't hit particularly hard, and on top of that it has a pretty mediocre speed stat that leaves it out run by a sizable portion of the metagame. It also runs into four move slot syndrome a bit, wanting to run both STABs, Substitute, Protect, and a coverage move. Checking Azumarill + Jirachi is nice and all, but in most other match ups it doesn't perform spectacularly, at least not as well as a tier 1 Pokemon ought to.

Whimsicott 4 --> 3

An extensive supportive movepool combined with Prankster and great speed give Whimsicott a distinct (albeit small) niche that no other Pokemon can fill. It can provide reliable speed control with Tailwind, disruption with Encore and Taunt, and decent offensive presence with its STAB of choice. Given enough room, the combination of Beat Up Whimsicott + Terrakion can absolutely shred opposing teams. Whimsicott's recent successes in seasonals has proven it enough to move it up a tier.

 

[Checkmater]

---> grab your popkernels

last vote was a month ago so next vote'll be in 2 months so if you tell me "this was done last round" I'm going to just give you the ol' shrugface and say there's too much time between votes anyways

Bisharp -> 3
see previous nom post
also see my very angry response when this wasn't moved down last time it was nommed

Sylveon -> 1.5

CM set has proven to be very good at covering for its weaknesses to amoonguss and heatran
Also intimidate is on every team basically and physical attackers are kang, lando, and ...talon? move this to 1.5 please

Hoops->2
fairies and like no resists and shrug
it's a'ight against dragons and all heatran/special attackers but falls flat on switching into anything
feels meh to use imo, someone prove me wrong


Scrafty -> 1.5

Shit's versatile af
like in 80% of the teams that don't have lando, scrafty is there
I know 80% of 0 is still 0 but you get my point so yeah
Fairies are an issue as always but fake out and intimidate and being able to switchin on stuff like slides and kang is rly nice
Also complements fairies p well

Mega Venu -> 1.5

Very bulky
Best sun mu of all the grasses (also chloro)
always fun to use and always pulls weight
just build properly: deal with garde and fires and you'll be ok

Heattom-> 3

idk I like volt switch set but theory alone can't keep this in 2. Move to 3 please

Glop -> 2

It's good fams idk what else to tell you
It's not as effective just like in sheer terms of how "goodstuffs" it is but it pulls weight in games where it's just like "ok now gastro beats all 4 of the remaining mons"

Diancie -> 2

semiroom / fullroom are both flames fight me on this one
amazing coverage and murders teams after steel is killed

Thundurus -> 1.5

It got hit hard by swagger ban, and it does terribly against stuff like garde and/or semiroom
Like ok you para'd my heatran lemme set up tr now?
So much of hte meta is bulky goodstuffs mons like sylveon or heatran that don't really care about thund that I think this can be tier 1.5



ON TIER 4
I DONT THINK WE SHOULD GET RID OF IT BUT WE SHOULD RETHINK OF IT AS "FRINGE-CASE VIABILITY"

so like you should be able to point at a decent team that used said mon and was alright
it doesn't have to be super succesful but it has to have been used in some shape or form
otherwise it's impossible to measure something's viability because you have no real battles in which it was used

That said, everything in tier 4 -> UR
except Bronzong, Mega Camel, Entei, Goth, Milotic, Raichu, Reuniclus, Sableye, Mega Swamp, Togekiss, Ttar, Victini, Whimsi

Unless you can legitimately say that hariyama has had competitive usage or something idk
honestly could get rid of tier 4 and just move some of them to tier 3 sigh.. but maybe this way would be better
Like imma just quote @milktankmilk here
"Tier 4 isn't meant to be good mons but everything there has some sort of niche thats relevant enough that the VR council said its fine."
Are you really going to tell me Serperior is a relevant threat that has a niche...? Crossapply this question to all the other things that I excluded in my list of exceptions of the tier 4 purge


ALSO I'm going to talk about/dissent:

Aegis -> 1.5

because it's still strong af and fills a capacity as an offensive prescence steel that jirachi can't. It's very different from Heatran and it definitely has its own niche imo. Idk it's bulky as fuck and strong what is there not to like besides low speed?

MGengar-> 1.5
I like this nom but I feel like you gotta keep in mind its poor coverage options that don't hit very hard (ie sball doesn't KO aegis/Jirachi), while it's also frail with few relevant resists
Stuff like Heatran love sitting on gar
Also I feel like there's this image of "I'm going to use Gar and trap things and take advantage of my opp being trapped to setup" but realistically you don't really get to do that because switching is more awkward in doubles than in singles and most things use coverage options that are hard to switch into. Gar isn't the type of mon that threatens murders so it doesn't get that kind of offensive presence either.
Mega Evolving is also awko tacos

Volcanion -> 1.5

there's like nothing you can throw on a team and say "and now I feel like my volcanion matchup is perfectly fine"
very versatile and strong/bulky af
It's got more usage than tran I think in doubles open and it slays azu jirachi, keep it in 1

 

[stax]

Milotic -> 3
The maranga berry set is flat out annoying to deal with and it can control games w icy wind plus it's ability to prevent lando from pivoting constantly. It is pretty weak to set up mons but its benefits are enough for a rise, I mean, it's certainly better than fucking rhyperior.

Porygon2 -> 3
I feel like ppl have sort of stopped using this mon recently in favor of more offensive tr setters. It has some potential in theory but its lack of offense holds it back. Extremely bulky tr setters have kinda gone out of style so I feel this warrants a drop.

Salamence -> 3
This thing is like a suboptimized mashup of hydra and lando that misses. It has its place but you're probably better off using lando or hydra due to their greater consistency.


I also agree with the suggestion KyleCole made in chat that their should be an extra tier above 1. Though I'd put only Kang and lando in it since they're clearly the best and most consistent mons.

 

[deoxys speed]

I agree that there should be a tier above 1 but only think Lando should be in it tbh. Unless I'm using something shit like Sand(or Rain I guess) Landorus is I feel almost mandatory on any competitive team.

Supporting check's nom on Gastro as well and that we clean up tier 4.

i love gastro

 

[Koekiekoekje]

Sylveon defenitely deserves to move to 1.5 because calm mind is great on semi/full room teams to punish the opponent if they try to outstall TR turns with (double) protects. Hoopa-U should stay in 1.5 in my opinion because it's literally the only TR setter that beats aegislash (which is important because it can clean the field for your calm mind sylveon). It is also great for dealing with opposing pokemon trying to outstall TR turns with their protects or substitutes.

 

[marilli]

if cleaning up tier 4, on top of check's list i feel pokes like clefairy / venusaur should stay ranked as they arguably has seen competitive play.

clefairy has seen play as more fringe use on kangastuffs, but it's shown to be quite good in p-trap and other similar lvl51stuffs team

while venu's accuracy issues have been one of leading cause of suicidal thoughts for stratos on the ladder i feel it's not bad enough to be completely unranked, you probably missed this by accident?