Is BW OU Perfect?

[FNH]

After all the years of it being played and all the suspect test suspect tests (like last summer's Excadrill suspect test), it looks like BW OU is done with being changed. Or is it? So what I would like to know is has BW OU reached its best where we can call it a perfectly balanced meta-game? Are there still Pokemon in it that should be looked at? Is the Meta-game finally balanced?

 

[Crestfall]

Not that I have a strong stance on any of these things but people often bring up Keldeo/Sleep mechanics (and even Jirachi/Volca) as being too strong/too good. I imagine if there was any ever desired change to the BW meta it would centralize around one of these.

 

[3d]

At this point, yes. Jirachi hasn't been so broken to the point where it needs to be banned, and neither has volca. While it is frustrating to deal with volc it's not that hard to stop from setting up, especially considering it's 4x sr weakness. Sleep mechanics can't be changed so idk what smogon would ever to do that, and finally keldeo is good but you don't see keldeo putting in work every game (esp vs fat cores w amoong).

 

[Funbot28]

Yay I love talking about BW, especially this topic cause I do feel some minor adjustments could be made to help balance the meta:

Reuniclus

So Reuniclus to me is one of the most annoying and unhealthy proponents of the BW OU metgame atm due to its superb ability to setup Calm Minds, foregoing passive damage from status, hazards and weather which is huge in BW. It pertains the right amount of bulk and power to become a powerhouse when setting up and also being quite bulky which allows it to sustain hits and outlast its checks/counters. The main problem with Reuniclus however is when it is used on those ever so common Sand Spike stack Bulky Offense teams (more specifically consisting of mainly Skarm/TTar/Gastrodon/Reuni/Exca/Ammonguss that are so amazing at breaking down the opposing team with spikes + weather + powerful wallbreakers such as Choice Scarf Sand Force Excadrill and CB Ttar. I was hoping that this issue would have been releived with the re-intorduction of Exca as hazard removal (cause god knows BW OU needs as much of that as it could get), however I had noticed that Exca can find it hard sometimes to spin and actually could make the problem worse due to it being so good as a wallbreaker on these types of teams. To me, Renuclus is and has always had been a really annoying and sometimes unbreakable mon that I personally feel in conjunction with many other component BW players such as BKC that it being relieved from the meta would help the tier become more balanced as a whole.

Shadow Tag

I never understood why Shadow Tag had never actually been looked into in BW OU as well when it got banned in ORAS OU. Although ABR GothStall does not exist in this meta, Shadow Tag as a whole still adds a uncompetitive aspect to the meta that I feel adds more issues than rewards. The fact that there is in fact no counterplay to it besides aggressively double switching in which the STag user can possibly capitalize on just gives to much favor towards the STag user imo which often dictates matches quite easily. I feel this is more understandable compared to Reuniclus which I understand is more controversial, but I still wanted to stress this as I feel its something that is taken too lightly imo.

Things I disagree with:

Volcarona

I won't deny that Volc is easily one of the best setup sweepers in the meta hands down, however I really feel that the meta has grown to prepare for it in forms of Sp.Def Haze Tentacruel, Gyarados and Dragonite in general which checks it pretty confidently besides HP Ice Volc variants. Before the Speed weather bans I would probably agree with a possible suspect due to Sun Volc paired with Venu and Duggy was actually broken af. Volc has been having a hard time adapting to meta changes as of late, and I can't see it being suspected because of this.

Keldeo

Look we all know that Specs Hydro Pump in rain OHKOes/2HKOes everything in the meta practically, but like Volc, new meta trends have also been working against Keldeo as of late with examples being Tentacreul, Toxicroak, Ammounguss, and Slowking are all increasingly common mons that are placed on a variety of teams due deal with Keld mainly. Sand has also been increasing as of late due combat Rain offense, which in turn hurts Keldeo's viability as a whole. Top mon of the meta no doubt, but no broken really.

also ban scald

 

[dice]

in my view, garchomp is unequivocally the most overpowered pokemon in the metagame. it leaves little to be desired with any of its sets, all of which provide a pretty unique and powerful function. need a volcarona check? scarf or endure salac are pretty solid slap-ons. need a breaker? sd 3 atks is your guy. even stealth rock sets can come in various special and physical forms wielding items that are nigh-on-impossible to get a read on from preview.

in spite of this, i would argue that banning lesser effective pokemon and moves could be for the betterment of any metagame. pokemon like volcarona are incredibly straining in the builder, yet are agreed by many to be pretty subpar in practice.

both restriction and effectiveness are part and parcel to metagame contribution in extremely different, yet important ways. the proliferation of scarf garchomp is, to a certain degree, due to the obnoxious presence of volcarona. the metagame is pretty restricted around a few threats like this which have very limited counterplay, barring a few pokemon. of course, players can always opt to skimp out of beating certain pokes and risk the matchup. this is quite a huge risk at times, though.

i'm not saying this centralization is bad by any means; i enjoy the metagame in its current state. but if we wanted to improve it, perhaps we should focus on the both the centralizing and op features that certain pokemon possess.

 

[Luckstard.]

I dont see Reuniclus as a problem, while I surely agree Magic Guard is being too good in BW, I think it's more a problem when its used by Alakazam. Being forced to hit Alakazam twice is a real pain for many team, especially considering its speed tiers and its power. Reuniclus is a great mon and a team not prepared for such a bulky mon able to setup on many mons is probably gonna loose facing it but I dont see it as a problem tbh.

It's been a long time I didnt see Gothitelle being good in BW, I probably missed something if its being brought up, but ORAS and BW are 2 different metagames, what Gothitelle was allowing in ORAS doesn't count in BW due to the threats existing and the archetype Goth fits in. I mean in ORAS you had M-Sableye to prevent Hazards, in BW you have Tentacruel (assuming Goth is being played in rainstall, which I believe is its best place if you want to make a comparison with its effect in ORAS), so you may trap 1 mon, maybe 2, there is still room for your opponent to win vs stall.

If I had to suspect something in BW atm it'd either be Alakazam (or Magic Guard) or Sand Rush Excadrill. Excadrill puts a ton of pressure on sand builds forcing you to run either Skarm, Rotom or to pray your opponent wont have it because you'll end up being swept by a superfast superstrong Pokémon. As I dont believe it breaks the meta, it puts unhealthy restriction on the teambuilding.

I'd not suspect Keldeo, Jirachi or Garchomp, 1st because I dont consider them are being too good, just really good and probably the 3 best mon in the metagame but also they are being staple in the current meta and BW is an old meta that doesnt need to be shaken like that.

 

[Fakes]

garchomp should be banned

 

[LuckOverSkill]

bw is fine i think

maybe alakazam could be suspected, hard to hit it twice without losing too much without dedicated counters (aka spdef jirachi), but idk if i'd vote ban (or if a suspect is ever going to happen)

excadrill is cool

 

[MANNAT]

Personally I believe the only real problem with BW is the fact that spikes+reuni/zam+sand builds are stupid af and hella annoying to deal with unless you build your team to do well vs them and subsequently make yourself super weak to rain builds in the process most likely, causing huge matchup issues to pop up.

Potential Singular Bans (Simple Solutions)

Option 1: Magic Guard is super dumb and having crap like Magic Guard Reuni that can come in even when ur opp has like 3 layers of spikes up and not take any damage and pull games out of its ass is just stupid. Zam is equally stupid because bar like Jirachi/Scizor/Skarm, there frankly isn't very much that can switch into it safely and it can run like sash twave to stop sweeps from mons like dnite volc etc, disrupt crap with encore, run hp ice for grounds, run lo and become stupidly powerful, etc. If we ban both Reuni+Zam the main wincons for these builds will dry up and they won't be nearly as effective or consistent in the long run.

Option 2: If people wanna preserve reuni/zam, I honestly think that straight up banning spikes will be the best course of action since the spikes stacking sand builds with like ttar skarm jelli reuni/zam etc. won't work out and offensive teams won't be punished as much for forgoing rapid spin. With the game not being as spikes-centric and offensive teams with scarfers that can pressure zam and more breakers to deal with reuni, they won't have as inherent an advantage over the rest of the metagame as they do. I think a spikes ban overall work fine for the metagame and woulud shine a new light on the tier, which would be a welcome change.

Potential Complex Ban (Less collateral damage)
Since the real issue with the metagame right now (at least imo) is how spikes stacking sand with mg psychics creates a stale metagame where the spikers have a super easy time outlasting the spinners and we have Jellicent to spinblock fucking everything, meaning that you can wear away at the opponent until a psychic just beats their ass and a sadly high amount of games end up coming to "whoever's reuni crits first" or "which zam wins the tie". For this reason, banning Spikes+Magic Guard would probably patch up the issues that the current metagame has while minimizing collateral damage.

Smaller/Misc Issues
I personally don't find Volcarona too problematic because I often can pressure it well enough with hazards/have stuff like scarfchomp for +1 Volc, but I can see why people wouldn't like it since it's super hard to prep for defensively and requires solid prediction to not lose to overall. Personally I'm not for or against a ban, but I wouldn't exactly be sad to see it go because I wouldn't have to be worried about it when building. Shadow Tag is dumb as fuck it should be banned for the same reasons it was banned in oras lmao. Drill is stupid because theres like a whole 3 mons u can run on sand teams or else you lose to it all but they're all good on sand so it's not that big a deal since drill checks are natural to fit onto sand builds.

 

[LuckOverSkill]

While I said "bw is fine" in my last post, I would still absolutely love to still be able to play in a metagame with Drought + Chlorophyll allowed. Even if you guys don't, I'd at least like to see some discussion about it.

I'm confused as to why we completely banned Weather + Speed Boosting trait when in reality only Excadrill and the Swift Swimmers have been insanely powerful throughout BW (BW1 mostly since both these bans are from the early stages of the metagame). Venusaur was the biggest offender in Sun teams, and you could face more rarely Victreebel (slower, but can use Weather Ball), or Sawsbuck (Physical attacker), both of whom were extremely rare to begin with, since they were so much weaker than Venusaur due to lack of Speed (Victreebel) or Coverage (Sawsbuck can't touch Skarmory ever).

This ban removed so much diversity from the metagame, in favour of a playstyle that is arguably as difficult to face as Spikestack + Magic Guard, in a tier where it is objectively hard to spin bewteen Jellicent and Sableye. It is true that Sun is still playable simply thanks to how ridicolously powerful Cresselia coupled with Dugtrio is, but I'm still not satisfied with how BW is currently playing out.

It's as if the "old" BW2 was still there (since bulky sand teams with Tyranitar + Garchomp have always been there anyway), minus the Sun teams.

Rain feels rather weak to play as well (I've been using a bit a team with Rain Dragonite + Tornadus and its insanely fun, but it's also super hard to play just because of how stupidly good and easy to play Sand is compared to Rain), while Sun on paper beat Rain (except Rain offense with Dugtrio), it helped balance the metagame a little more in my opinion.

Then there's Stoutland, who was a staple in a lot of balance / semistall Sand teams, as a cleanup sweeper / revenge killer, but he is more of a "collateral" effect of the ban than anything, he just so happened to only be viable as a Sand Rush abuser in OU.

I've been using Excadrill a lot on the BW ladder (it's all I play nowadays), and I think it's a great addition to the tier, but would obviously be super busted if it could be run with Sand Rush on a sand team, I don't think anyone here would like a complex ban of Sand Rush Excadrill, since it could also be run as a spinner that functions extremely well against opposing sand teams, but I'd absolutely love to have Sun back, as stated at the beginning of my post.

I don't know if there's a solution to this, or if a solution is even needed, but I wouldn't mind at least trying out Sun without Venusaur, since Venusaur was the biggest offender. There's also the option of looking into Dugtrio, who happens to just become more oppressive as time and generations pass. The removal of Dugtrio would make Sun teams much harder to play, since it would make them rather weak to Tyranitar, and to Heatran, 2 of the staple Sun checks, who used to not be very reliable because of Dugtrio.

Anything to diversify the meta :c

 

[Funbot28]

While I said "bw is fine" in my last post, I would still absolutely love to still be able to play in a metagame with Drought + Chlorophyll allowed. Even if you guys don't, I'd at least like to see some discussion about it.

I'm confused as to why we completely banned Weather + Speed Boosting trait when in reality only Excadrill and the Swift Swimmers have been insanely powerful throughout BW (BW1 mostly since both these bans are from the early stages of the metagame). Venusaur was the biggest offender in Sun teams, and you could face more rarely Victreebel (slower, but can use Weather Ball), or Sawsbuck (Physical attacker), both of whom were extremely rare to begin with, since they were so much weaker than Venusaur due to lack of Speed (Victreebel) or Coverage (Sawsbuck can't touch Skarmory ever).

This ban removed so much diversity from the metagame, in favour of a playstyle that is arguably as difficult to face as Spikestack + Magic Guard, in a tier where it is objectively hard to spin bewteen Jellicent and Sableye. It is true that Sun is still playable simply thanks to how ridicolously powerful Cresselia coupled with Dugtrio is, but I'm still not satisfied with how BW is currently playing out.

It's as if the "old" BW2 was still there (since bulky sand teams with Tyranitar + Garchomp have always been there anyway), minus the Sun teams.

Rain feels rather weak to play as well (I've been using a bit a team with Rain Dragonite + Tornadus and its insanely fun, but it's also super hard to play just because of how stupidly good and easy to play Sand is compared to Rain), while Sun on paper beat Rain (except Rain offense with Dugtrio), it helped balance the metagame a little more in my opinion.

Then there's Stoutland, who was a staple in a lot of balance / semistall Sand teams, as a cleanup sweeper / revenge killer, but he is more of a "collateral" effect of the ban than anything, he just so happened to only be viable as a Sand Rush abuser in OU.

I've been using Excadrill a lot on the BW ladder (it's all I play nowadays), and I think it's a great addition to the tier, but would obviously be super busted if it could be run with Sand Rush on a sand team, I don't think anyone here would like a complex ban of Sand Rush Excadrill, since it could also be run as a spinner that functions extremely well against opposing sand teams, but I'd absolutely love to have Sun back, as stated at the beginning of my post.

I don't know if there's a solution to this, or if a solution is even needed, but I wouldn't mind at least trying out Sun without Venusaur, since Venusaur was the biggest offender. There's also the option of looking into Dugtrio, who happens to just become more oppressive as time and generations pass. The removal of Dugtrio would make Sun teams much harder to play, since it would make them rather weak to Tyranitar, and to Heatran, 2 of the staple Sun checks, who used to not be very reliable because of Dugtrio.

Anything to diversify the meta :c

I feel that you are undermining the effects that ChloroSun actually had on the meta. Venasaur + Dugtrio + Heatran was an extremely frustrating core to face and commonly beat many playstyles due to the overall potency that Sun had. Imo it was the best weather in the meta post Swift Swim ban as it beat both Sand and Rain so easily with smart strategic plays from the Sun user. While I do agree that the meta is kinda lacking in diversity due to the abundance of Magic Guard Spike Sand teams and the Rain Hyper Offense/Bulky Offense teams, introducing a broken playstyle will not help attaining higher levels of versatility imo and will only stiffen the meta even more due to needing to pack specific counters to sun abusers on every team. All speed boosting weather abilities should remain banned imo.

Also for the Magic Guard Spike talk, we could look at Zam imo as it is the guiltiest culprit at wrecking teams with spikes and sand support in conjunction with needing to hit it twice with a Focus Sash.

 

[Luckstard.]

Here is the whole discussion about Sun ban (and Excadrill unban) : http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bw2-suspect-proposal.3535733/ it might help you.

I miss offensive Sun archetype and Stoutland as well. I don't feel like Excadrill is a nice addition to the metagame anyway, while spinning is always nice I'd have been way happier with an Alakazam and Venusaur ban if nerfing spikestack and sun were the target.

 

[LuckOverSkill]

I feel that you are undermining the effects that ChloroSun actually had on the meta. Venasaur + Dugtrio + Heatran was an extremely frustrating core to face and commonly beat many playstyles due to the overall potency that Sun had.

I am fully aware of this, and this is why I haven't just said "unban Sun fully", while I always thought sun was perfectly fine, I could also see what people meant when they were discussing it back in the days, so I wouldn't be completely opposed to a nerf, I just think this one was too brutal, and a different one could be considered. I just wish the issue was looked upon with more depth instead of "remove weather + speed boost", since the only mon that caused any real issue was Venusaur in combination with Dugtrio / Heatran.

As for spikestack I just think Alakazam is the mon I feel is the most problematic, as it's a glass cannon that can tank any given hit, unless its a faster multi-hit move (so basically scarf dual chop chomp), and with very few counters, all of which have big issues switching into a single layer of Spikes, except Bronzong who is not a very good mon to begin with unfortunately (at least not in your average team)

 

[Yoshi]

Well, after thinking about it, there are a few inbalanced things that could be changed.

Weather: Oh boy, BW OU, the big weather battle field. I still think weather is a big problem, especially since weather is permanent in this generation. This can cause some extra, unnecessary damage from Sand, and with Swift Swim Pokemon all over the place, huge threats like Kingdra emerge. Of course, you also have the Sand Rush abusers as well. Sun also exists, giving Venusaur the ability to heal 66% of it's health, which can lead to some nasty stalling. While Hail is not common at all, it's still worth mentioning the damage that it can give, like Sand. With Toxicroak being some what popular, it gets harmed by the Sun as well. Also note that Tyranitar and other Rock-types get the 50% SpDef boosts in the Sand as well, ruining some calculations.

Jirachi: Yes, the Scarf set specifically wants to make me delete this Pokemon from the existence of generation 5. While I love Jirachi as a Pokemon, I think it needs to be bumped up from OU. It's Scarf set can lead to some nasty hax, which ruins games for a lot of players. I can say this from experience as well, as I love to use Scarf Jirachi. Not only this, but out speeding everything is great too. While that might sound obvious, having access to U-Turn allows it to pivot out with ease. Not only that, but it can use that Healing Wish, and recover a Pokemon to full health and removing all status. It also has great typing, only sharing it with Metagross. With it's great move pool, it could also run a cancerous paraflinch set, being able to hax anyone out, one of the main problems the Pokemon causes. With it's 100-across-the-board stats, it can run not only a physical set, bet a special one too, with moves like Ancient Power, Psychic, Thunderbolt, and many more. It's capabilities are endless, because it even has access to moves like Substitute and Wish. Those are a few reasons why I think it's a problem in the meta game, however I'm not really warranting a ban or suspect.

Those are some things that I think are issues in the meta game right now, I know there are more things I can't think of right now and I'll add them later.

 

[xJoelituh]

Well, after thinking about it, there are a few inbalanced things that could be changed.

Weather: Oh boy, BW OU, the big weather battle field. I still think weather is a big problem, especially since weather is permanent in this generation. This can cause some extra, unnecessary damage from Sand, and with Swift Swim Pokemon all over the place, huge threats like Kingdra emerge. Of course, you also have the Sand Rush abusers as well. Sun also exists, giving Venusaur the ability to heal 66% of it's health, which can lead to some nasty stalling. While Hail is not common at all, it's still worth mentioning the damage that it can give, like Sand. With Toxicroak being some what popular, it gets harmed by the Sun as well. Also note that Tyranitar and other Rock-types get the 50% SpDef boosts in the Sand as well, ruining some calculations. What are the ways to fix this you ask? Well, we could start by doing one of three things: Ban weather activating abilities, ban the weather abusers (Excadrill, Kingdra), or we could ban the weather abuser's abusing abilities (Sand Rush, Swift Swim). However, those things will most likely not happen. But who knows what the future holds? Perhaps a Politoed suspect could emerge... But that's probably not happening either haha.

Jirachi: Yes, the Scarf set specifically wants to make me delete this Pokemon from the existence of generation 5. While I love Jirachi as a Pokemon, I think it needs to be bumped up from OU. It's Scarf set can lead to some nasty hax, which ruins games for a lot of players. I can say this from experience as well, as I love to use Scarf Jirachi. Not only this, but out speeding everything is great too. While that might sound obvious, having access to U-Turn allows it to pivot out with ease. Not only that, but it can use that Healing Wish, and recover a Pokemon to full health and removing all status. It also has great typing, only sharing it with Metagross. With it's great move pool, it could also run a cancerous paraflinch set, being able to hax anyone out, one of the main problems the Pokemon causes. With it's 100-across-the-board stats, it can run not only a physical set, bet a special one too, with moves like Ancient Power, Psychic, Thunderbolt, and many more. It's capabilities are endless, because it even has access to moves like Substitute and Wish. Those are a few reasons why I think it's a problem in the meta game, however I'm not really warranting a ban or suspect.

Those are some things that I think are issues in the meta game right now, I know there are more things I can't think of right now and I'll add them later.

You cannot use speed users + same weather on BW...

 

[Yoshi]

You cannot use speed users + same weather on BW...

LOL god I haven't played this tier in a while, thank you so much.