Serious US Election Thread (read post #2014)

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TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Like I said, when the white nationalist KKK Nazi NRA-funded death squads come for me because my skin is a few shades too dark and I didn't vote for Trump, you can say "I told you so".

In the meantime I'll try to be a little more objective. The situation may be bad but comparing it to Nazi Germany is flat out ridiculous. Prophecising about how horrible the next few years are going to be isn't going to help us, getting your ass in gear and helping us whip the DNC back into shape so maybe we can fix this in 2018 might.
Comparing a fascist to fascists isn't ridiculous but even then I'm not saying the death squads are coming I'm saying literally just that he's hired a white nationalist as chief strategist who can lead a state driven propaganda arm. You seem to think those words are ludicrous hyperbole when that is factually what has happened. Your relentless efforts to accept what's happening and try to "whip up the dnc into shape" is complacency pure and simple. Why do we have to wait for 2018 when shit could go down much faster than that. Maybe you're right maybe shit won't go down at all but you're literally saying "I'm gonna wait until it's maybe too late before deciding to really do anything about this I'd rather brow beat people who are too far left."

Stopping Trump from doing an iota of damage immediately is more important than trying to fix a shitty party (especially when that party has won 6 of the last 7 popular votes and still manages to need to genuflect and be more right leaning).
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
Any scumbag who uses a Trump presidency as an invitation to express their close-minded views are no better than the Clinton supporters who throw labels around like there is no tomorrow. Everyone accepting each other and getting along is not Just a nice thought. It is a conscious effort. The ills of the world cannot simply be fixed or ignored. They must be improved upon at every level. Starting with the hobos on the street and going all the way to the highest echelons of political power. We will never come together while we are actively and willingly being torn apart. Just some food for thought.
 
Again, you can keep saying he got elected on racism and bigotry, and it's probably harmful to my own political preferences to intervene while you further destroy yourselves for being ridiculous caricatures, but by God, you can't be this brainwashed. You just can't be.

I mean, you can, and I'm going to enjoy watching the continuous character assassination stupidity that enabled the left to lose the House, Senate, and Presidency to freakin' Donald J. Trump, but really, get a grip.
brainwashed? brainwashed into what? It's been pretty clear that at the bare minimum xenophobia and misogynism have played a role in his campaign.

And if there are democrats doing a character assassination of trump, I don't understand the need to. Trump does enough to sabotage himself, you don't need to make up rumors.
 

Solace

royal flush
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just a quick thing to the people saying trump doesn't really believe in the things he said, he was just saying them to get elected: people quite literally said that about hitler



it's nbd though, he didn't really mean it. just killed millions of people though, and those same mechanisms still exist and can be implemented (stop and frisk, police collecting names of members of mosques, for example)

instead of acting like it's liberals who need to get a grip maybe you should check who the hell you're defending here. this isn't someone to simply disagree with -- he's not a mitt romney type -- this is a dude who is literally copying hitler's playbook. will trump be the next hitler? probably not. but people have a right to be worried and call out the kind of behavior that led to him getting elected.
 
Not only that, but conservatives need to speak out against Trump's choice for Steve Bannon as chief strategist, and say that is not okay. They need to be told from both sides that White Nationalism is to be rejected, and if they want to start a regime where it is law, they and their ilk can go to Antartica or some island, because they still represent only less than half of the country at best.
 
Don't forget the prospect of Rudy Gulliani being Attorney General.

He is unwilling to admit that stop and frisk was a failure, and all around pretty racist if you ask me.
 
Comparing a fascist to fascists isn't ridiculous but even then I'm not saying the death squads are coming I'm saying literally just that he's hired a white nationalist as chief strategist who can lead a state driven propaganda arm.
I certainly agree his appointee decisions range from questionable to "what the fuck are you doing, man?". However, I fail to see what you think I should do about it.

Your relentless efforts to accept what's happening and try to "whip up the dnc into shape" is complacency pure and simple. Why do we have to wait for 2018 when shit could go down much faster than that.
Yet again I fail to see what you want to do. Revolution, against the party that owns most of the guns? Protests, for all the good they've done in the past 30 years? There's a difference between being complacent and being realistic.

Maybe you're right maybe shit won't go down at all but you're literally saying "I'm gonna wait until it's maybe too late before deciding to really do anything about this I'd rather brow beat people who are too far left."
Don't give a shit how far left people are, I care more about whether they're authoritarian or not. Also comparing things to Hitler and Nazi Germany doesn't make you a leftist, it just makes you harder to take seriously.

Stopping Trump from doing an iota of damage immediately is more important than trying to fix a shitty party (especially when that party has won 6 of the last 7 popular votes and still manages to need to genuflect and be more right leaning).
And yet again you force the question, what do you want to do about it? If you have any ideas, I'm listening.
 
Mussolini used the fear of communism and socialism to originally grow the fascist party in Italy. There were other factors, but fear of the far-left was the major one along with the economic crisis that followed World War I. Hitler also used this fear of communism to rise to power in Germany. And then when Hitler started to get aggressive, socialist and communist countries got scared (there was the Hitler-Stalin pact, but that was only one socialist country while other socialist countries still were scared).

And we all know how this ends up. Fear of the other ideology wasn't the only factor, but it was a major one.

If we look at today, we also have had an economic crisis (that luckily was not as bad), and we have socialist politicians offering the people relief from the crisis, and we have far-right politicians offering the people economic relief. This is why this election was so bad for me, because the radical defeated the centrist. I don't particularly fear Trump and I'm definitely not afraid of Sanders, but I am afraid of those that will come after them.
I was asking how you came to the conclusion that people in socialist countries were somehow not opposing socialism
 
rioters?

There has been much more peaceful disruption than straight up violence.

And you'd be dishonest to suggest Trump supporters would've acted any better if Hillary won.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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Not only that, but conservatives need to speak out against Trump's choice for Steve Bannon as chief strategist, and say that is not okay. They need to be told from both sides that White Nationalism is to be rejected, and if they want to start a regime where it is law, they and their ilk can go to Antartica or some island, because they still represent only less than half of the country at best.
Where is your proof Steve Bannon is a white nationalist? And please, no links to AlterNet or Addicting Info. After a summary Google search the ONLY people saying that are people who have been proven by Wikileaks to be totally in the tank for Hillary.

Being ACCUSED of something does not make it true. The basis for some of this seems to be a divorce lawsuit where his ex-wife claimed he made anti-Semitic remarks - and we all know how ex-wives avoid hyperbole in the course of fighting for custody and alimony - and in the article where this is brought up they stated his ex-wive had no evidence to back that claim up.

You're chasing a boogie man because Steve Bannon being a white nationalist comports with your confirmation bias. You desperately want to believe Steve Bannon is a white nationalist so any source will do. Every single thread of the "Steve Bannon is a white nationalist" hinges on the base argument "white nationalists / the alt-right like Steve Bannon." Well, the National Council of La Raza and the Nation of Islam like Obama so I guess he's a black / latino supremacist?

You need to adjust to the fact You Lost And Your Opponents Are Not Evil.

The people who voted for Hillary are not evil. Hillary herself isn't evil, but she would have made disastrous decisions and committed serious, national-security endangering crimes that deserved at least an indictment like any low-level shmuck in the military or civil service would have received.
 
The people who voted for Hillary are not evil. Hillary herself isn't evil, but she would have made disastrous decisions and committed serious, national-security endangering crimes that deserved at least an indictment like any low-level shmuck in the military or civil service would have received.
I dunno, I regard Hillary as something pretty damn close to evil, and I didn't even support Trump. It certainly goes without saying that one has a lot more blood on their hands than the other.
 

brightobject

there like moonlight
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A lot of people are saying they support Trump and not Pence...well, I think in this case more than any other you should consider them a package deal.

Pence is going to have an inordinate amount of influence for a VP, as it seems he may be leading the policy discussion in the White House more than Trump, since Trump doesn't have much in-depth knowledge of many policy areas / leading / being president (lol).

Just to give you an idea of what Trump expects from a VP, when his campaign was courting John Kasich for the position his son told him "you'll be in charge of domestic and foreign policy... Donald Trump will be in charge of Making America Great Again."

...Don't even bother trying to make sense of it. Anyways this is just a single sound byte (which was denied later by the Trump Campaign, but nevertheless this hasn't been the first time the campaign has suggested Trump may be 'outsourcing' his job as President to someone more experienced in politics), so it may be that Trump will be a bit more active in deciding policy in reality but either way Pence will definitely be someone with a hell of a lot more pulling power than previous VP's. Just something to watch out for.

source: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat..._to_be_in_charge_of_domestic_and_foreign.html
 
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Where is your proof Steve Bannon is a white nationalist? And please, no links to AlterNet or Addicting Info. After a summary Google search the ONLY people saying that are people who have been proven by Wikileaks to be totally in the tank for Hillary.

Being ACCUSED of something does not make it true. The basis for some of this seems to be a divorce lawsuit where his ex-wife claimed he made anti-Semitic remarks - and we all know how ex-wives avoid hyperbole in the course of fighting for custody and alimony - and in the article where this is brought up they stated his ex-wive had no evidence to back that claim up.

You're chasing a boogie man because Steve Bannon being a white nationalist comports with your confirmation bias. You desperately want to believe Steve Bannon is a white nationalist so any source will do. Every single thread of the "Steve Bannon is a white nationalist" hinges on the base argument "white nationalists / the alt-right like Steve Bannon." Well, the National Council of La Raza and the Nation of Islam like Obama so I guess he's a black / latino supremacist?

You need to adjust to the fact You Lost And Your Opponents Are Not Evil.

The people who voted for Hillary are not evil. Hillary herself isn't evil, but she would have made disastrous decisions and committed serious, national-security endangering crimes that deserved at least an indictment like any low-level shmuck in the military or civil service would have received.
Considering that under his leadership, that Breitbart has espoused anti-Semitic (I'm hopeful that only means against the big banks) and nationalist views, I retain by skepticism. Not helping is that white nationalists seem to like him, even if Bannon himself isn't virulent, if you get the picture. But then, maybe you know about the National Council of La Raza and the Nation of Islam, because I don't know the sort of rhetoric they spout. I do know about the sort of rhetoric that white supremacist groups spout however, and if it were tolerated by the new administration, it could be disastrous for the country. We are already seeing some of these folks getting uppity. Hopefully, the Trump Administration will put them in their place if this continues even after Inauguration Day. His ex claiming that Bannon is anti-semitic reminds me of what happened with Julian Assange, and where most people think that he has raped women (turns out the problem started after he refused to consent to a test for HIV, but that's another subject anyways).

And don't go putting words in my mouth. If Bannon isn't a white nationalist, that creates less trouble for the country, and makes for one less thing I have to worry about. One less thing to worry about is good new for me.

And if the Trump Administration isn't evil/corrupt (which I doubt, since much of his transition team seems to consist of lobbyists), then that is also good. Gives me more time to play the upcoming Sun Version, and makes it less necessary for me to get involved politically. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I highly doubt Trump will be a good President in any sense, and plan help to oppose him on issues that are important to me (such as environmental) but I at least minimally should wait and see. I also am getting a feeling that it would be more productive to talk with people on the other side of the isle rather than joining in these protests, and wait until he actually does something unpopular/controversial.

If I'm misinformed, than fine, I'm misinformed, and I need to admit that, stand corrected, and move on!

Oh, and I stated it before, and I'll say it again: I hate Hillary. She should have never been the nominee, and she didn't deserve to be President.
 

macle

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damn that hillary she never have been the nominee even though more people voted for her than bernie while bernie who is not even a democrat should be the democrat nomination damn
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
HEY SMOGON! I know a lot of folks aren't open to the possibility that the people of earth can peacefully co-inhabit the same space, regardless of what they look like...but truth be told those folks are just making excuses. I know people of white origins did bad shit in the past and I never once denied that. I never once said white people are innocent, but really though...
WHO IS?


You wanna tell me a perfect race of immaculate beings exists, well where are they?!

We all are flawed, no arguments here I expect; except from the ignorant.
Hey, I just used a semi-colon. You know what that represents? I do.

It means I have chosen to continue, so should you.

We can either move forward and make progress regardless of the person that is in power by OUR vote or we can use it as an excuse to act like a butt-you be the judge.
 

Bull Of Heaven

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So some alt-right recruitment posters have started popping up in my home city. Fucking wonderful. And this is after one of the candidates for leadership of the Conservative Party called Trump's win "an exciting message and one that we need delivered in Canada". Seeing shit like this creep into my own country does make me want to get more politically active, but not in the way these people have in mind.

Yes, I know we've always had racism in Canada. The point is that Trump seems to be starting to embolden racists here too.
 
damn that hillary she never have been the nominee even though more people voted for her than bernie while bernie who is not even a democrat should be the democrat nomination damn
Yeah, she won those primaries fair and square. In fact, let's do a quick search just to make sure.

Oh, shit.

And you're telling me that you think Hillary fucking Clinton, who was against gay rights and supported the destabilization of the Middle East (while Sanders did not), is somehow more liberal than Sanders? No, you're demonstrably wrong. I don't care that he used to run as an independent. Looking at the current state of the DNC, I can't blame him.
 
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HEY SMOGON! I know a lot of folks aren't open to the possibility that the people of earth can peacefully co-inhabit the same space, regardless of what they look like...but truth be told those folks are just making excuses. I know people of white origins did bad shit in the past and I never once denied that. I never once said white people are innocent, but really though...
WHO IS?


You wanna tell me a perfect race of immaculate beings exists, well where are they?!

We all are flawed, no arguments here I expect; except from the ignorant.
Hey, I just used a semi-colon. You know what that represents? I do.

It means I have chosen to continue, so should you.

We can either move forward and make progress regardless of the person that is in power by OUR vote or we can use it as an excuse to act like a butt-you be the judge.
This so much. I think Gene Roddenberry (creator of Star Trek) would agree with you. We are flawed, and at so many time illogical, but as scary as that is, that also means that there is the exciting prospect of helping one another improve ourselves. And no matter how dire things seem, we can never give up. He believed that we would rise above our primitive tendencies, and create a society similar to the fictional one he helped create. We only need to be imaginative, patient, and put in the time and effort. And considering the amount of fear that the Cold War would lead to armageddon, which they were wrong about, perhaps he was right. We're still here, and we can still do this!

But there is so much to be done!

We can't unite as one race, and go out and explore outer space (even if we had the technological means, which scientists are exploring) if we can't even unite what is supposed to be the greatest country on the planet. Right now, we might as well be the Divided States of America, given the amount of polarization that we have. And news flash: the wealthy fat bastards love it. While we're busy arguing over whether conservatism or progressivism is better for the country, they will be busy having their pawns in the government pass legislation that benefits them on their behalf.

Right now, we need to put aside our differences, focus on our commonalities first, and then we need to be able to compromise so that we can address each other's concerns to at least some degree. Getting money out of politics: if that is the one major thing that happens over the next four years, THAT my friends will be a major victory. And for those of you who are often involved in politics: don't feel shy to spread the word.

Will we need to drag the groups of the uncompromising, hardened groups of racial supremacists kicking and screaming into the future? Probably eventually. That, or they can quietly make their own communities. If they don't force their ideologies on me or everyone else, like these KKK idiots, then fine. Forcing one's ideologies usually take a huge effort, and creates conflict. God gave us free will for a reason. I still hope they come around eventually, but who the hell am I kidding?! Obviously, I could go on about the harm and flaws of racial supremacy, but that's another topic.

But if we can get past all of this, the rewards will be worth it I think.
 
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OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
The rewards would be great and plenty but first we must get over that huge horizon. Which is, honestly, more than I expect from the human race rn. My expectations atm are nothing less than grim and hopeless. If we can get it together, take matters into our own hands, and make amends; then hell yeah. In case we don't, it was nice(knowing you folks)Cya next lifetime!
 
what are the best sources of info for knowledge on the us political system + election info
I edit the opinion section of my college paper (and pretty much read political news as my hobby/life), so the resources I typically direct columnists to are as follows. Please note that I am NOT saying to follow all of them. I don't. But if you want to get into political reading/awareness, maybe give them each a glance and see which ones you like and then pick one or two to check in the mornings or something.

  • ProPublica for old school, investigative journalism
  • FiveThirtyEight for data analysis. The numbers behind things, if not the reasoning or classical reporting.
  • Los Angeles Times is my preferred newspaper that isn't behind a paywall
  • BBC News - US and Canada usually has insights that are different than the rest of the media
  • Politifact.com is a good fact checker
  • The Associated Press' app and twitter feed
  • Buzzfeed News is surprisingly good. Didn't see that one coming, but yeah.
  • LastWeekTonight puts its main segments on YouTube. It is a comedy series and liberal leaning, but it delves into some issues in depth that tend not to get covered much otherwise (prison reform, local/state level concerns, etc.)
  • NPR is... eh. I've never liked their political stuff that much, but it's probably just not my cup of tea. They have a lot of interesting science/human interest stuff, though.
  • If you're fine with things being longer form and, well, liberal-leaning, then The Atlantic and the New Yorker have good opinion stuff
  • I round that out by following a handful of major LGBT activists, BLM leaders, feminists, etc. on Twitter, along with a handful of Center-Right pundits who don't make me want to cry or punch things on a regular basis. David Frum and Conor Friedersdorf are good for that. Deray Mckesson is a good place to start for activist twitter.
  • CNN, NBC, FOX, etc. are all essentially garbage imho. The rare good stuff will end up elsewhere anyway. NYT, WashPo and WSJ are good but have paywalls. HuffPo leans too far left for me and/or wears their bias too plainly, the alt right websites are terrifying as an empathetic human, and a lot of the new media is very opinionated.
  • Some people like The Daily Beast because it provides a rundown of ~10 important news stories. But tbh the site is very liberal, its standards of journalism can be questionable and they tend not to demarcate what is meant as opinion and what is news.
If anyone else wants to add good sources, feel free. I'm not going to pretend this is a comprehensive list.
 
I was asking how you came to the conclusion that people in socialist countries were somehow not opposing socialism
Oh no, I didn't come to that conclusion (sorry for bad wording of that post). I was going for the whole avoiding socialism/fascism in governments around the world except communist countries.

I completely agree that Clinton did a lot of bad things, but the truth is that the democratic party has vetted their candidates all the way back to the 1960s. At least Clinton actually ran in the primaries (unlike Hubert Humphrey, the ass). But this vetting is done because the general American public is moderate or conservative (http://www.gallup.com/poll/9691/most-americans-identify-either-conservative-moderate.aspx), and unfortunately Sanders would have probably been more likely to lose than Clinton in the election (lack of appeal to voters in southern states). Once again, Clinton was horrible, I personally wanted Joe Biden to run, but we just have to deal with the DNC vetting people before the American public becomes more liberal.
 
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