Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

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Duck Chris

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Not really news but specs Hoopa-U is still crazy.
Nothing is switching into a dark pulse.

Also having some good results with Volcanion right now, a simple life orb 4 attacks set is blowing holes in teams that i can then clean up with the monster: Quiver Dance Pheromosa.
 
A core I've been playing around with is Tapu Lele + Excadrill. Lele prevents priority from cutting short a sweep, although I haven't seen much Craw/Azu/Loom, the meta is just in the beginning stages. It still helps with Mega Lop and whatnot too that use Fake Out to stall Sand turns.

Specs Tapu Lele is really strong. The only thing that's walled it so far for me is Celesteela, and Shadow Ball can crush Jirachi/Metagross
I've been running 4 attack LO Tapu Lele to wall break for Mega Zam. It does a great job of wearing down the steel types that can switch in to Zam with Stabs/focus blast/natures madness to cut the opponents hp in half so it can no longer switch in. It also sets up the terrain for Mega Zam to make Psychic hit even harder and keep it from being revenged by priority.

The speed boost on the turn you mega evolve also helps Mega Zam out vs stuff like torn and greninja. Also, trace seems a lot better this gen because the UBs are running around. Mega Zam can come in and revenge kill most ultra beasts, trace beast boost, and then proceed to sweep as its special attack is boosted with each kill.

Another quick observation is Pelliper is very good as a weather setter and I think rain could make a comeback this gen.
 
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The idea that Shadow Tag is considered to be broken so early in the meta is appalling. It was late 6th gen when it was finally decided to be banned and that was due to its synergy to Mega Sab. There are tons of new stuff! I don't understand. Who decided on this ban list anyway? You're not even going to the new meta breathe?
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Dugtrio is fucking ridiculous rn lol. combine it with magearna and the only thing standing up to you is aegislash.

Anyone know of some sick cores incliding lando-i, genesect, mawile, pheromosa, or greninja? id love to try them out.
 
Swagger is still dumb as fuck, it literally adds nothing to the tier and does nothing but change the outcome of games based on rng alone.
So does confuse ray. Swagkeys got multiple nerfs this generation... Dark types are immune, swagger has low accuracy, thunder wave has lower accuracy and paralyse only cuts speed in half. Like c'mon, spamming the word RNG over and over again isn't enough to get it banned when it clearly is just not that good anymore.

Also you guys are playing AG gen 7 right? Then how are ya'll struggling with Aegislash... It might be broken in OU SUMO but right now? No way... Just run Arceus/Pdon/Yveltal/Ho-oh all of them handle Aegislash nicely. Unless you guys are playing something else.
 
So does confuse ray. Swagkeys got multiple nerfs this generation... Dark types are immune, swagger has low accuracy, thunder wave has lower accuracy and paralyse only cuts speed in half. Like c'mon, spamming the word RNG over and over again isn't enough to get it banned when it clearly is just not that good anymore.

Also you guys are playing AG gen 7 right? Then how are ya'll struggling with Aegislash... It might be broken in OU SUMO but right now? No way... Just run Arceus/Pdon/Yveltal/Ho-oh all of them handle Aegislash nicely. Unless you guys are playing something else.
Also the person crying for swagger ban doesn't realize dark type mons are completly immune to Prankster now...
 
this is the problem it's a AG instead of a OU metagame.

alot of teams that are being tried are not being made with AG (and by rough extention ubers) in mind.
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
this is the problem it's a AG instead of a OU metagame.

alot of teams that are being tried are not being made with AG (and by rough extention ubers) in mind.
Swagger was unbanned in ou for god knows what reason we can only pray it goes with other quick bans

So does confuse ray. Swagkeys got multiple nerfs this generation... Dark types are immune, swagger has low accuracy, thunder wave has lower accuracy and paralyse only cuts speed in half. Like c'mon, spamming the word RNG over and over again isn't enough to get it banned when it clearly is just not that good anymore.

Also you guys are playing AG gen 7 right? Then how are ya'll struggling with Aegislash... It might be broken in OU SUMO but right now? No way... Just run Arceus/Pdon/Yveltal/Ho-oh all of them handle Aegislash nicely. Unless you guys are playing something else.
Something being slightly less uncompetitive doesnt mean its suddenly competitive. the entire point of swagger is to cheese your opponent to the extreme. It's worse than confuse ray but then again confuse ray is still uncompetitive, just to less extreme extents. I'm honestly extremely disappointed in the council's decision to legalize this. All their decision does is facilitate trolling and make the game less enjoyable for the majority. This move has no competitive applications.
 
So Pyukumuku is probably not the best pokemon.

Or even the best gimmick pokemon.

Or even the best oblong gimmick pokemon.

But I think it got needlessly harsh criticism in its introductory thread in the SuMo subforum. Does it have attacks? No. But who really needs those?

It's really bulky (chance to live +1 Pheromosa's LO HJK bulky), and despite how its ability functions, that's a good thing. Fully invested base 55 HP is only the equivalent of 86 uninvested, so living a hit, and then using Pain Split, guarantees Innards Out to get a KO on common pokemon who have above 86 base HP. But factoring in probable chip damage, and it can act as a cold stop to nearly any sweep even if it gets oneshot, so long as it's healthy to begin with. Counter is also cool.

And it's not just a sacrificial lamb, the slow baton pass is really helpful to get in basically anything you want, because you will literally never outspeed anything with this pokemon.

So yeah, put down your Pheromosas, Aegislashs, Pelippers, and Tapus, and give this shitmon a try.
 
So much hyperbole surrounding Aegi. Sure it's a great mon, but there are things that just shit on it. You have the offensive presence of M-Gara and M-Lopunny and just the tankiness of Toxapec to just say "Settle down" The "50/50" argument works both ways for Aegi, remember that. The gen just started.
 
We're preparing for the OU meta rn so stuff on the ban list isn't an option. I'm a little surprised that Deo-D and Deo-S didn't get their customary shake. I would have ideally liked to have seen gen7 as an opportunity to fix the shadow tag problem (unban ST, ban Gothitelle) but I feel like most probably don't agree with me.

I expect quick removal of Aegislash and Pherimosa; neither for their dancing abilities but rather because of overcentralization and 2 base speed points, respectively. I'll enjoy them while they're here.

The effects of Dugtrio's buff are pretty noticeable; honestly I find more of a problem with buffed Trio + Arena Trap than I do with Wobble + Stag. Just my thoughts going in, no more tiering stuff from me.

Swagger is still really annoying and I'm not sure if the debuffs matter too much rn. I haven't seen it a lot though.

Rain is nuts; even without Pelipper (which is hands-down the best weather setter below ubers) you have massive buffs like the m-evo speed fix and the ability to use offensive mons as rain setters with z-rain dance giving +1 Spe. Terrains are highly synthetic with weather; psychic terrain is fantastic for rain and sand in particular as these styles are horribly priority prone. Even with A-Ninetales, Aurora veil, and Slush Rush, I'm having trouble taking hail seriously although that might be habit at this point.

I haven't played a lot yet (obviously) so these are first impressions. Here's to gen 7!
 
We're preparing for the OU meta rn so stuff on the ban list isn't an option. I'm a little surprised that Deo-D and Deo-S didn't get their customary shake. I would have ideally liked to have seen gen7 as an opportunity to fix the shadow tag problem (unban ST, ban Gothitelle) but I feel like most probably don't agree with me.

I expect quick removal of Aegislash and Pherimosa; neither for their dancing abilities but rather because of overcentralization and 2 base speed points, respectively. I'll enjoy them while they're here.

The effects of Dugtrio's buff are pretty noticeable; honestly I find more of a problem with buffed Trio + Arena Trap than I do with Wobble + Stag. Just my thoughts going in, no more tiering stuff from me.

Swagger is still really annoying and I'm not sure if the debuffs matter too much rn. I haven't seen it a lot though.

Rain is nuts; even without Pelipper (which is hands-down the best weather setter below ubers) you have massive buffs like the m-evo speed fix and the ability to use offensive mons as rain setters with z-rain dance giving +1 Spe. Terrains are highly synthetic with weather; psychic terrain is fantastic for rain and sand in particular as these styles are horribly priority prone. Even with A-Ninetales, Aurora veil, and Slush Rush, I'm having trouble taking hail seriously although that might be habit at this point.

I haven't played a lot yet (obviously) so these are first impressions. Here's to gen 7!
I agree partly with your statement about shadow tag. I do not agree that Shadow Tag, even on Goth, is ban worthy. There are new ghost types, new users of U-turn, Volt-Switch, Baton Pass, Wimp Out, Emergency Exit, Shed Shell, and Eject button/Red Card. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things. Let us reconsider Shadow Tag especially this early.
 

New World Order

Licks Toads
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So much hyperbole surrounding Aegi. Sure it's a great mon, but there are things that just shit on it. You have the offensive presence of M-Gara and M-Lopunny and just the tankiness of Toxapec to just say "Settle down" The "50/50" argument works both ways for Aegi, remember that. The gen just started.
No it's not a hyperbole, so many games are decided by who's Aegislash goes down first and what set the Aegislash is running (the latter usually contributing to the former). There are ways to check th is monstrosity, but there's a way to check even the most busted of ubers, and almost all of them come at a risk. As for the 2 examples you listed, M-Lopunny risks hitting into King's Shield and High Jump Kick has it's usual issues. M-Gyara fares well, but many Aegislashes are moving from Flash Cannon/Iron Head to Sacred Sword which hurts big time.
 
I am a little bit bummed that Showdown is already post-Pokébank. I wanted to have some months without Lando-T, Aegislash and Genesect steamrolling me over. Of course that is exactly what happened in my first fight, but despite playing like a total noob I was saved by my lord Toxapex and - can you believe it - Alolan Golem! And NOT the Galvanize variant :D

Warning: The following contains awful use of Tapu Bulu and Minior by me.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-478419292
 
Okay so i haven't seen anyone talk about the Swellow buff. This thing has became a savage and is prob at least UU material and definitely usable in OU.

Gen7God (Swellow) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- U-turn
- Heat Wave
- Sleep Talk / HP Ground


252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 283-334 (74 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The calc is about the same for Rotom-W so anything more offensive is straight up OHKOed after rocks.

His checks either take significant damage from Heat Wave or get trapped by Duggy which is so easy to bring since you have U-Turn.

I'm currently building around Swellow + Duggy + Spikes which is a bit hard to fit but allow this monster to be a quite reliable wincon in test battles.

I might try to explore double trapping with Duggy + Zone but that begins to make a lot of support for a mon that lack priority hehe.
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
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Really don't see how Greninja is balanced rn, even though Mawile forces it to run Hydro Pump or HP Fire, and it gained a switchin in Toxapex (which loses to ESensory btw) and faster checks in Tapu Koko & Pheromosa, it's still completely insane to deal with and can adapt its movepool to break past pretty much any of its checks. Beack in ORAS it was banned too fast for people to realise how versatile it is, Choice Band and Choice Specs are actually legitimate options on it. The only reason it seems almost not broken now is because, early on, people are either going for extremely offensive or extremely defensive teams since those tend to be pretty straightforward. Stall always handled Greninja well, and while HO teams don't exactly like Greninja, they can at least prevent it from coming in, and revenge kill it if it does. But once the dust settles and people want to run bulky offense or balance, and then realise they can't b/c Greninja anihilates those playstyles completely, I really, really don't see it staying.

Mawile is interesting, I don't think it's as good as Greninja, partly becuase the Sucker Punch nerf hits it relatively hard (no longer has a chance to OHKO Heatran at +2 atfer SR damage for instance), partly becuase it can't threaten bulky teams as much becuase they all run Toxapex, and partly because of Tapu Koko revenge killing it for offense while also being a ridiculously good Pokemon. I still don't think it'll stay OU though, becuase it kinda has the same effect as Aegi has, aka making a bunch of key Pokemon way less viable b/c, if you do carry them, you need to also carry a Mawile switchin, which can lead to problems down the line by making your team too passive etc. Moreover, I don't really see the value of keeping it in the tier. Any defensive utility it offers (checking Weavile, Latis, Lele, Zam, non Heat Wave Torn-Ts, etc) is already offered by Magearna, so it doesn't really help the tier in any way. Come think of it, the same applies to Genesect, it use to be pretty nice to check Fairies and Latis while pivoting, but that's no longer as needed. Same for Aegi even, I guess it actually beats Pherosoma unlike Magearna, but Pherosoma is fucking broken anyway so w/e. Aegi doesn't look balanced in the slightest, by the way, especially since its former main check, Bisharp, is a lot worse now, and its other big check, Mandibuzz, is nowhere to be seen due to the prevalence of Fairies.

On the flipside, Landorus seems perfectly fine in this metagame. Not for any perticular reason, it just doesn't perform particularly well since balance is nowhere to be found. Hoopa-U is a bit harder to handle, but if you're like most people, you're using HO and can just steamroll the poor thing. Maybe they'll be banned eventually, maybe not.

Also, can we talk about Dugtrio? +20 in Attack is a surprisingly big difference for it, it really expands the amount of stuff it can trap. Heck, it 2HKOes Calm Clefable with Choice Band, which is kinda insane tbh. This might be due to the GeneTrio hype making it a really attractive Pokemon, but it's starting to become really annoying to deal with.

Another thing that was balanced in gen 6 but seems potentially busted now is Manaphy. Z moves may have put this thing over the top. Waternium-Z with Rain Dance lets it choose whether it wants to ruin Offense with Rain Dance giving it a Speed boost, or destroy Stall by Koing Chansey with +6 Hydro Vortex. It can also run Icium-Z, and KO Ferrothorn, Venusaur, Av tangrowth and Kyurem-B at +3 with Subzero Slammer. This thing is ridiculous, especially now that you have to run passive mons like Toxapex and Hippowdon in order to beat the other broken stuff that's in the tier, and Manaphy just mercilessly slaughters most of these. Might be a product of the current lopsided metagame though. We'll see.


This is kinda unreleated to all this, but am I the only one having trouble picking megas this gen? Maybe it's just me really wanting to try new stuff, but I often have to kind of force myself to run one, and even have a bunch of teams without one. A lot of new non-megas compete directly with megas, and are in some ways even better than said megas even when taking mega stones into account. Mega opportunity cost just seems a bit lower this gen.

also lol why is swagger legal
 
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