Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

[Its_A_Random]

Give it (and Gen VII stuff in general) a couple of weeks please. I have plans for a SotG for Gen VII stuff in a couple of weeks so it might be best to leave it be for a couple of weeks and then see if it really is bad enough that it needs to be revisited. I mean, it's only been 10 and a half hours lol.

and i thought making eleventh hour buffs to alolan raichu and alolan eggy would make sure no one gets jack from their elemental stones to the point of complaints

 

[Ooraloo]

Proposal: Refs may not claim counters from a battle marked as "Ongoing."

Just a small change to make digging through threads a little easier and more organized without penalizing anyone. It's not a huge deal, but it makes record-keeping here a tad neater.

Edit: This isn't a thing that'll get your claim rejected if you forget and do it once or twice. As Texas suggested, it'll be more of an honor-system thing where we'll focus on refs who continue to not do this.

 

[Birkal]

A minor change, but it should likely say the original ref of a match. It should be the OP's job to get it changed when the current referee cannot. Maybe mods can fill in the gaps here?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

That was the implicit assumption on my part, if the concluding ref can't change the tag themselves, messaging the mods to do so was the expectation.

 

[Matezoide]

You know, i actually think Wishiwashi is unique enough to warrant a signature item.

For starters, Wishiwashi is the only pokemon with an Ability locked by level. It is like a Semi-Evolution of sorts, now that i think about it, in that it is a Level-Locked transformation.

Secondly, looking at it's current sig item, Everstone, Wishi's School Form's BRT is higher than the threshold, only getting the benefits when it is in Solo Form. It only gains benefits from it half the time.

Both of these characteristics are pretty unique, and i believe an exclusive item that can properly interact with it's ability would be reasonable for it.


We already have plenty of ''unique'' pokemon that get their own exclusive Sig. Items, like Malamar and Vespiqueen, so the precedent is there.


Schooling is weird.

 

[Geodude6]

dislike

 

[JJayyFeather]

To Matezoide: No, simply because Gen 7 just started. Give it time.

New proposal: Can we please make Sniper a +3 effect (making crits +6 from it)?
(Current) Sniper: This Pokemon has deadly accuracy and strikes sensitive points, increasing its critical hit bonus from +3 to +5 on single attacks, +2 to +3 on two-hit attacks, and +1 to +2 on multi-hit attacks.
(Proposed) Sniper: This Pokemon has deadly accuracy and strikes sensitive points, increasing its critical hit bonus from +3 to +6 on single attacks, +2 to +3 on two-hit attacks, and +1 to +2 on multi-hit attacks.

Sniper in-game increases the damage of a critical hit by ×1.5, which as per a lot of discussion lately, apparently should correspond to +3. So, I want to adjust the ability to give the +3 to Critical Hits.

Other thoughts: Possibly moving the 2-Hit bonus to +3.5 instead of +3, to maintain that getting both crits is stronger than the singular crit on a single move.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Salazzle will sooner get a signature item than Wishiwashi and the only reason Salazzle doesn't have one yet comes down to "what to do for it idk" so that's the reason it's stuck with Rare Candy at the moment. I personally don't see much of a reason to give wishi a signature mostly for balance reasons but that's an issue for another day, like the inevitable SotG where Salazzle signature will probably be a topic since I did leave it on the backburner.

I mean the whole point of using Everstone on Wishiwashi anyway is to make sure it isn't useless once Schooling fades and can still deal damage to things hahaha.

 

[Geodude6]

Can we make Lightningrod and Storm Drain give immunity to Electric and Water attacks respectively? They do ingame but not in ASB.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Likely a holdover from the gen4 days when they did not give such immnities

 

[Its_A_Random]

Can we make Lightningrod and Storm Drain give immunity to Electric and Water attacks respectively? They do ingame but not in ASB.

Wait, they didn't have those properties already? I mean, "they transfer the energy into their body" and "It absorbs the water" should imply that they are immune to it, but then again, this IS ASB we are talking about...

Whoever reffed it as not being immune needs to... yeah. >_>

 

[Toon]

Question: Is Komala immune to taunt, because of Comatose?

The user taunts and sneers at the opponent, enraging the opponent and making them only capable of using damaging attacking moves (no commands, no chills) for the following six (6) actions. If a combination used while Taunted includes a non-attacking move, it may be used so long as the combination does damage. If the Pokemon is unable to witness the Taunt, like if it is asleep, the move fails; a Pokemon being ordered to look away does not make it fail. Z-Move Effect: Raises the user's Attack by one (1) stage, adjusting the natural stage.

This Pokemon is always sleepy but never fully asleep. It will count as being asleep for the purposes of moves such as Wake-Up Slap and Sleep Talk, but will not have the sleep status (and as such, will be able to attack normally). Because this Pokemon is very sleepy, it is immune to all major status effects.

EDIT: I don't mind it being immune to taunt, it only has like 5-6 useful status moves imo

Full List (bold are what I see most important): Defense Curl, Stockpile, Spit Up, Swallow, Yawn, Psych Up, Work Up, Calm Mind, Toxic, Bulk Up, Sunny Day, Protect, Double Team, Attract, Quash (if doubles), Swagger, Sleep Talk, Substitute, Confide, Charm, Wish, Sing

But then again who knows what future Pokemon will get this ability (also Skill Swap/Trace/Roleplay) or what moves Komala will get in future generations

 

[Gerard]

But then again who knows what future Pokemon will get this ability (also Skill Swap/Trace/Roleplay)

Comatose is hard coded to Komala.

 

[Toon]

Comatose is hard coded to Komala.

Whoops, it didn't say it in NDA mb

 

[Its_A_Random]

By that logic it should be immune to Taunt, yes, by Taunt's description. It's technically asleep without having the downsides of being asleep so it fits the bill for being tauntproof in ASB.

Also if it is genuinely hard-coded and cannot be removed/copied, let me know and I (or someone else) will hotfix the NDA saying it can't be taken away to be consistent with other hard-coded abilities with such properties. While you are at it, note the other new abilities with this trait ingame that isn't listed in ASB.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Double Post sorry, but a couple of claim-related questions because relevant (paging Registration Leader deadfox081 so we have clear cut examples here).

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3568897/

I call DQ here on my opponent and I only used two Pokémon in a 3v3 match. Do I get to claim for a third Pokémon or not? Asked around on IRC and got inconsistent responses and no apparent clarification in the handbook.

Also from that example, let's assume I do get to claim for a third Pokémon. I pick Colossoil. Colossoil had a full movepool in Gen VI. Now it's Gen VII and Colossoil no longer has a full movepool due to getting Brutal Swing and Smart Strike. Do I claim the 6 CC or do I claim 3 MC as punishment for missing the boat instead? Again not a clear cut case because of the generation shift. Also getting inconsistent responses on IRC.

 

[Someoneelse]

With regards to the first point, from the OP of the Battle Tower MkII thread:

Battler Prizes in Disqualifications:
Unreleased Pokemon will receive their basic EC/MC/DC from a disqualified match only for the player that is not DQ'd. (e.g. if Player 2 DQ's Player 1 in a 4v4 that is after player 2's second Pokemon is released, Player 2 will get their usual bonus, any training item bonus on their released Pokemon, and the EC/MC/DC only on their unreleased Pokemon, even if they have additional training items. The Disqualified battler will receive no rewards.)

This suggests that you may claim for a third Pokemon.

And the second,

Eventually you will have a Pokemon with a full EC, a full AC and all of its available moves in its movepool. At this point, if the Pokemon participates in battle, it doesn't benefit from an increase to EC, MC or AC, so instead using it allows the player to earn even more CC.

Since it can benefit from the MC and can purchase new moves, I interpret it as not fulfilling the conditions to be maxed and as such would get 3MC.

 

[Exclaimer]

Block - Normal | Other | Adjacent Target | -- BAP | -- Acc | 6 EN Cost | -- Eff% | Contact: No | 0 or +2 Prio | Z-BAP: -- | Combo Type: Passive | Snatch: No | Magic Coat: Yes

The user moves with unnatural speed to block off an opponent's exit. This move traps the target, preventing them from being switched out during Switch Phases. If the target attempts a non-damaging evasive action, or enter the evasive phase of a damaging evasive move, in the same action that user is about to use Block, the user will negate the evasive action and deal fixed damage to the target equal to twice the user's Weight Class, acting with boosted priority. Performing this effect makes contact with the target. Z-Move Effect: Raises the user's Defense by one (1) stage, adjusting the natural stage.


Apparently, this will negate the evasive part of Dig and Dive but not the actual attack which seems really dumb. From my perspective, it seems like the opponent tries to use Dig, gets Block'ed, and then just... does it again? Why isn't the damaging portion negated, if the Pokemon fails to perform the part of the action that the move is named after? I don't see why Fly should be able to land if you can't Fly, because you're Blocked.

 

[Fort Colorcastle]

Block - Normal | Other | Adjacent Target | -- BAP | -- Acc | 6 EN Cost | -- Eff% | Contact: No | 0 or +2 Prio | Z-BAP: -- | Combo Type: Passive | Snatch: No | Magic Coat: Yes

The user moves with unnatural speed to block off an opponent's exit. This move traps the target, preventing them from being switched out during Switch Phases. If the target attempts a non-damaging evasive action, or enter the evasive phase of a damaging evasive move, in the same action that user is about to use Block, the user will negate the evasive action and deal fixed damage to the target equal to twice the user's Weight Class, acting with boosted priority. Performing this effect makes contact with the target. Z-Move Effect: Raises the user's Defense by one (1) stage, adjusting the natural stage.


Apparently, this will negate the evasive part of Dig and Dive but not the actual attack which seems really dumb. From my perspective, it seems like the opponent tries to use Dig, gets Block'ed, and then just... does it again? Why isn't the damaging portion negated, if the Pokemon fails to perform the part of the action that the move is named after? I don't see why Fly should be able to land if you can't Fly, because you're Blocked.

That feels like oversight and pedantry.

 

[Exclaimer]

That feels like oversight and pedantry.

I agree, but IRC disagreed and told me only the evasive part is negated.

 

[JJayyFeather]

Because it makes the most sense. The only other move designed to cutoff effects is Pursuit, which only stops the self-switching aspect of the move, not the damage.

Why would it make sense that being bodyblocked means the mon wouldn't be to still whack you anyways?

 

[Fort Colorcastle]

Because it makes the most sense. The only other move designed to cutoff effects is Pursuit, which only stops the self-switching aspect of the move, not the damage.

Why would it make sense that being bodyblocked means the mon wouldn't be to still whack you anyways?

If the target attempts a non-damaging evasive action, or enter the evasive phase of a damaging evasive move, in the same action that user is about to use Block, the user will negate the evasive action and deal fixed damage to the target equal to twice the user's Weight Class, acting with boosted priority. Performing this effect makes contact with the target.

The user burrows under the ground to attack the target by surprise. The user goes underground at Priority 0 and strikes at Priority -2. While between these phases, the user of Dig avoids most attacks. If the user is at least SC 5, at least 3.5 meters long, has the Levitate trait, or is a Flying-type; it ignore the target's Levitate or Magnet Rise. Bulldo e, Earth Power, Earthquake, Fissure, and Magnitude ignore Dig's evasive properties. Bulldo e, Earthquake, and Magnitude strike for doubled BAP, and ignore any immunity to Seismic Attacks granted by the Flying-Type, Levitate, Magnet Rise and the Levitate Command. If Dig (Attack) is used whilst underground, Dig has a priority of 0 and uses all 10 EN on the hit. If used whilst not underground, Dig has an evasive priority of 0, which uses 6 EN, and a hit priority of -2, which uses 4 EN. In both cases, STAB EN Cost Reduction is only applied to EN used upon the hit.
Dig (Suspend): The user may pay 6 En to delay the attack component of Dig for an action. If a Pokemon is underground at the end of the round, it may not be switched out. Dig (Suspend) only applies Consecutive EN Costs for multiple uses Dig (Suspend), and does not count for Dig (Attack). Whilst underground, a Pokemon can only use Dig (Suspend), Dig (Attack), or a combination involving Dig (Attack). If a Pokemon fails to use Dig (Suspend) whilst underground, said Pokemon returns to the surface.

yay for circular logic

Block: prevents you from going underground.
Dig: if attack is used while not underground, you go underground.

I see nothing that says IF unable to go underground, THEN just walk up to the opponent and attack them.

Fly - Flying | Physical | Adjacent Target | 9 BAP | 95% Acc | 11 EN Cost | -- Eff% | Contact: Yes | 0 and -2 Prio | Z-BAP: 18 | Combo Type: Deferring | Snatch: No | Magic Coat: No
The Pokemon flies up high, and strikes down in a tackle. While in the air the Pokemon can evade almost any attack. This move can hit any single Pokemon on the field, regardless of position. Gust, Hurricane, Sky Uppercut, Smack Down, Thunder, Twister, and Whirlwind cannot miss against an opponent in the evasive stage of Fly. When used during the evasive stage of Fly, Smack Down and Gravity will cause the Pokemon to crash to the ground, cancelling Fly and making it take (2 * Weight Class + 4) crash damage. Gust, Twister, and Whirlwind will also make Fly miss when used during the evasive stage, but will not deal crash damage. If Fly (Attack) is used whilst airbone, Fly has a priority of 0 and uses all 11 EN on the hit. If used whilst not airborne, Fly has an evasive priority of 0, which uses 6 EN, and a hit priority of -2, which uses 5 EN. In both cases, STAB EN Cost Reduction is only applied to EN used upon the hit.
Fly (Suspend): The user may pay 6 En to delay the attack component of Fly for an action. If a Pokemon is airborne at the end of the round, it may not be switched out. Fly (Suspend) only applies Consecutive EN Costs for multiple uses Fly (Suspend), and does not count for Fly (Attack). Whilst airborne, a Pokemon can only use Fly (Suspend), Fly (Attack), or a combination involving Fly (Attack). If a Pokemon fails to use Fly (Suspend) whilst airborne, said Pokemon returns to ground level.

again, if you're not in the air when you try to attack, you just go into the air... which you can't, so you try again...

Logically you can't "strike down in a tackle" if you're not above the target. Nor can you "attack the opponent by suprise" after "burrowing under the ground" if you can't go underground in the first place.

Also a major difference between self-switching and d/e is that with self-switching, the part that is prevented comes after the damage. Like with uturn, you hit the enemy, then take advantage of the opportunity to pop into your pokeball. With d/e, you escape first.

TL;DR: we need to be told the intent behind block: its not an issue of wording at this point, but rather a circle

 

[Frosty]

if you wanted block to be a move to stop switches with some degree of security, it is balanced enough. Considerably harder to chicken dance against it.

if you wanted block to punish D/E, it should have either more damage or block damage.

IMO, the first part is enough given it is what ingame has as purpose. If you want the second it should be fine but a matter of taste. Just don't go "but it doesn't make sense to block the evasive and not the damaging" because your definition of "sense" is not what guides move changes and overall balance. Its just a pointless argument. To add to the extent list of those.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Blocking damage is meh, that is not the intent of the move ever. Imo Block doing damage through evasive action is not the idea, but Block ideally lands the hit before the evasive action is taken, kind of like Pursuit. That was the idea behind that proposal I believe, correct me if I am wrong here.

 

[Complications]

In reference to this battle I'd like to propose that the descriptions of recoil moves state recoil based on fractions as shown in the game rather than % values. I understand that as written, it makes sense, but for the sake of consistency with in-game values (when they haven't been deliberately changed), I feel as though this proposition isn't unreasonable for consideration.