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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Celticpride
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Pokebank is allowed early since it will be out soon anyway. No point in not just preparing for the meta we would be playing soon.
It can run low kick; it's primarily to hit ferro but it hits empoleon as well. Alomomola can pivot in and out of most Greninja as well but it's kind of tricky to use sunfish right now.
I'm going to quote myself from the Bibarel thread last week because this thread is way more active and I'd like to hear more opinions about it and see more discussion/debate
I've been using Bibarel teams exclusively for the past few days and here are my two cents. First off, Bibarel is best used as a late game cleaner. My most successful strategy has been using hazards and constant pressure to wear down my opponents team to the point where the fast frail mons can be picked off with boosted priority and the slower bulky mons can be muscled through with a +4 Return. Bibarel is usually just bulky enough to take a hit while setting up Swords Dance and can then proceed to wreck havoc. Back in gen 5 I used Feraligatr as a late game sweeper and I would say gen 7 Bibarel is very similar to that.
Bibarel @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Simple
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack
- Aqua Jet
- Return
This right here is Bibarel's best set. I chose Return over Double-Edge because Bibarel will often need to take a hit to set up and I don't want the recoil killing me mid-sweep. This moveslot will generally be used against slow, bulky mons with a lot of hp so you can bet that the recoil caused by Double-Edge would be a decent amount too. I chose Silk Scarf over Life Orb for similar reasons as well. Also, using a Life Orb brings the mind games of your opponent switching around at the end of your sweep to attempt to stall out the recoil. Bibarel is especially vulnerable to this phenomena because it's priority moves often won't dent the switch-ins too much resulting in so many moves being used to complete the sweep that the Life Orb recoil will add up too fast killing you first. The extra damage from Aqua Jet won't be missed too much and I tend to think of it almost as a coverage move. Aqua Jet hits many common resistances to Quick Attack super effectively such as Heatran, Marowak-Alola, and Rocky types so the extra damage isn't usually necessary. I've also found that Return and Silk Scarf are much more useful than Aqua Tail/Waterfall and Splash Plate because most opponents try and stop Bibarel with bulky grass and water types that are hit neutrally by Return. Return also has a higher base power.
The EVs on this set are nonnegotiable. The speed EVs are used to outspeed most bulky walls up to uninvested Mega Venusaur in order to bop them with Return first. Attack is maximized and the rest are dumped into bulk.
Like I said before, Bibarel is best used as a late game sweeper. Once the opponent's pokemon are worn down appropriately, Bibarel can clean surprisingly well after a Swords Dance boost (which isn't too hard to get). It's dual STAB priority sets it apart from everything else in OU and is incredible in tandem with Simple Swords Dance. Bibarel has just enough speed to outspeed bulky walls and just enough power to take out faster pokemon after a boost. However, wearing everything down just a little bit first is really key here. I also find Bibarel good at its role because no one expects it. Nobody is thinking "better keep my Ferrothorn alive to stop a Bibarel sweep" which they probably would think of for something such as Gyarados. If anything, people assume bulky grass and water types such as Toxapex and Mega Venusaur blanket check it which is not true at all after a Swords Dance boost and a teeny bit of prior damage (cannot stress enough how key this little bit of prior damage is!).
Here are some replays of my Bibarel set in action. Both are against respectable OU teams and Bibarel sweeps at least the last 5 pokemon in both replays late game after my strategy has been properly executed.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-483903877
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-484134462
The only change to my set I would be willing to consider is Double-Edge > Return just to hit those fat walls slightly harder. I haven't tested this out yet but I still think Return is better. Also, I'm very against Life Orb and basically any other Bibarel set for the reasons I already provided. Maybe Life Orb with Return could work but if I still think Double-Edge and no Life Orb would better if I were to make any changes to my set. Regardless, I think both Life Orb and Double-Edge as recommended by the OP is a terrible choice.
In conclusion, I think Bibarel is currently on the lower end of viablity in OU and its only place is as a late game sweeper with this set.
EDIT: If anyone disagrees with anything I said please feel free to explain because I'm always up for debate and open to new ideas
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
+4 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 216-255 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I also think non boosted knock off is better than non boosted return, normal is a better stab typing than dark for neutral coverage but You gotta admit craw even vs something it can't beat can help the team deing taking an item.
bibarel does have better speed(can't afford to invest in it as much as craw) and special bulk, I just don't see what it offers other than being able to switch into ghosts?
also dark got buffed this gen by ignoring prankster so that's cool
+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 211-250 (61.8 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
life orb makes it close to craw tho
monster hit here
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 234-278 (68.6 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 216-255 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I also think non boosted knock off is better than non boosted return, normal is a better stab typing than dark for neutral coverage but You gotta admit craw even vs something it can't beat can help the team deing taking an item.
bibarel does have better speed(can't afford to invest in it as much as craw) and special bulk, I just don't see what it offers other than being able to switch into ghosts?
also dark got buffed this gen by ignoring prankster so that's cool
+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 211-250 (61.8 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
life orb makes it close to craw tho
monster hit here
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 234-278 (68.6 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
honestly having another psychic Pokemon to run psyshock to nail Chaney wouldn't be that bad, or they could start running dugtrio/magnetzone to trap predictable steel pokemon, and they could easily now body bisharp for free.
idk it's a dream for team building ideas honestly because it's checklist can be neatly checked if they ran SpD to avoid 2 hit OK when You lack a coverage move
idk it's a dream for team building ideas honestly because it's checklist can be neatly checked if they ran SpD to avoid 2 hit OK when You lack a coverage move
Actually, Lele has 35 less SpAtk, "only" 130 compared to 165. That being said, Gardevoir's STAB of choice is Hyper Voice, which probably outdamages Lele's Psychic. Though you could run both and seriously mitigate Gardevoir's Bullet Punch weakness. Lele doesn't get a pivot move, correct?
Psychic Terrain boosts Psychic by 1.5x vs Pixilate's nerfed 1.2x, additionally, with access to boosting items such as Choice Specs, Tapu Lele hits much harder with Psychic despite a lower Special Attack stat. Hyper Voice is much more spammable than Psychic however, so there's that slight advantage. It's a shame Tapu Lele doesn't get Trick, otherwise it would be an even better option.
The prospect of a Mega Gardevoir cleaning the survivors of a Tapu Lele's rampages sounds really brutal tough, especially if the field didn't run out yet. As if either of those two wasn't hard enough to wall, this sounds like a reincarnation of the classical SalaQuaza combo (since ORAS being MegaSalaQuaza with birdspam instead of dragonspam) that has ravaged offensive Ubers teams since DPPt. It's official, we have now a secondary Ubers, in S&M OU; at least for the time being.
I'm pretty Sure Tapu Fini is the only Tapu worth running it. The other three have great sets without it, whereas fini is hurt by not being able to Status pokes and needs a secondary way to truly harm switch ins since her attacking stats aren't great.
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Eh, I think having the means to halve the HP of your counters in half (and keep it that way if you decide to run Taunt like a madman) isn't exactly bad. Tapu Koko can hit Alolan Marowak with it without running Brave Bird and a (Special) Defense lowering nature, Tapu Lele could do it to Chansey or other Special sponges it can't break through and Tapu Bulu could do the same to Skarmory or some other Physical wall.
By no means the best choice for a moveslot, sure, but I could definitely see it being used.
That's what I meant by "worth" being run. You're right, it could be run, but I don't see it being run regularly on any of the Tapud besides (Maybe) Fini. As a surprise Factor, or as a way to really damage switch ins (Which every Tapu bar Fini does anyway) it could see some use.
Not saying it's bad on any of them, just not the best.
If they were calls for Magearna to get suspected or banned, that's probably why they were removed.
4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 187-221 (52.8 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Golbat can switch in on Pheromosa a grand total of once. Fully invested Pheromosa actually does not OHKO after Rocks, but you have to come in at absolute max health in order to not die to it (meaning you STILL don't counter, as eating a U-turn or HJK means Pheromosa can now blast you out of the skies), and you go down thanks to Brave Bird recoil at that point anyway.
4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 187-221 (52.8 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Golbat can switch in on Pheromosa a grand total of once. Fully invested Pheromosa actually does not OHKO after Rocks, but you have to come in at absolute max health in order to not die to it (meaning you STILL don't counter, as eating a U-turn or HJK means Pheromosa can now blast you out of the skies), and you go down thanks to Brave Bird recoil at that point anyway.
Magearna gets Pain Split as well for recovery, which could allow it to fill a similar role to Rotom-W, though more offensive. Strangely Magearna does not get Toxic, so the only status it can spread is Thunder Wave, which means it's probably best to run an offensive set rather than full defensive since the only real utility Magearna can throw out is Trick Room. I've been considering this set:
Magearna @ Pixie Plate / Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 208 HP / 8 SpA / 248 SpD / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Volt Switch
- Pain Split
This set aims to switch into (mostly) special attacks and either directly pivot out into a counter or fire off a ridiculously powerful Fleur Cannon. While Leftovers can be used to augment survivability, Pixie Plate allows Magearna to nail a few KOs with Fleur Cannon that previously were shaky. 44 Speed allows Magearna to outspeed uninvested base 70s, including Skarmory, Mantine and Decidueye. The bulk investment combined with Magearna's amazing 80/115/115 natural bulk allows the gear pixie to survive a surprising array of attacks, and Fleur Cannon is still stupidly strong even without SpA investment.
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 208 HP / 248 SpD Magearna: 129-153 (36.5 - 43.3%) in Electric Terrain
8+ SpA Pixie Plate Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 294-346 (104.6 - 123.1%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 208 HP / 248 SpD Magearna: 131-155 (37.1 - 43.9%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 208 HP / 248 SpD Magearna: 155-183 (43.9 - 51.8%)
8+ SpA Pixie Plate Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 207-244 (73.6 - 86.8%)
8+ SpA Pixie Plate Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 372-438 (123.1 - 145%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 139-164 (39.3 - 46.4%)
252+ Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 127-150 (35.9 - 42.4%)
8+ SpA Pixie Plate Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 770-908 (216.9 - 255.7%)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 208 HP / 248 SpD Magearna: 214-253 (60.6 - 71.6%)
8+ SpA Pixie Plate Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (Water): 307-363 (107.7 - 127.3%)
Other attacks do 0~20% other than HP Fire.
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 208 HP / 248 SpD Magearna: 118-139 (33.4 - 39.3%)
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 208 HP / 248 SpD Magearna: 79-93 (22.3 - 26.3%)
8+ SpA Pixie Plate Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 223-264 (88.8 - 105.1%)
8+ SpA Pixie Plate Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 294-346 (104.6 - 123.1%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 208 HP / 248 SpD Magearna: 131-155 (37.1 - 43.9%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 208 HP / 248 SpD Magearna: 155-183 (43.9 - 51.8%)
8+ SpA Pixie Plate Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 207-244 (73.6 - 86.8%)
8+ SpA Pixie Plate Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 372-438 (123.1 - 145%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 139-164 (39.3 - 46.4%)
252+ Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 127-150 (35.9 - 42.4%)
8+ SpA Pixie Plate Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 770-908 (216.9 - 255.7%)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 208 HP / 248 SpD Magearna: 214-253 (60.6 - 71.6%)
8+ SpA Pixie Plate Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (Water): 307-363 (107.7 - 127.3%)
Other attacks do 0~20% other than HP Fire.
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 208 HP / 248 SpD Magearna: 118-139 (33.4 - 39.3%)
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 208 HP / 248 SpD Magearna: 79-93 (22.3 - 26.3%)
8+ SpA Pixie Plate Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 223-264 (88.8 - 105.1%)
Lando-I (and T) and Heatran do pose problems for this set, though offensive variants of the latter take a healthy 50% from Aura Sphere, and the former gets OHKO'd by Fleur Cannon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-492103442
I dont know if this is the right place to post this but how did doublade switch on my magnet pull? My opponent said he wasnt running shed shell... Is this a Glitch?
I dont know if this is the right place to post this but how did doublade switch on my magnet pull? My opponent said he wasnt running shed shell... Is this a Glitch?
Ghost types are immune to trapping.
Oh my bad, I didnt know that was it a new addition?
I mean, Is it a new addition to SM?
A team I have been using every generation without change has improved significantly enough to be viable in OU, with two mons possibly being OU tier now up from UU and NU, due to new moves they got.
Frosslass got willow wisp, and when combined with some of her other moves, is wrecking things by totally shutting them down, especially one hit wonders like choice banders or setters.
Froslass @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Disable
- Substitute
She became practically impenetrable, and with 252 in hp, even if a Pheremosa comes in, a direct attack such as from Poison jab will do very little and allow her to burn Phero, while U-turn does negligeble damage.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-492220375
I'm still playing with EVs for Bellossom, now that she gots Quiver Dance, she's been going Toe to Toe with a lot of mons, especially when EV'd for HP and defense. Trying to find if she is as effective offensively EV'd.
Rockium-Z is being tested by Rampardos, with the slower mons of this gen, he's been having a lot of success. Bisharp was the only OU mon on my team(been using him since he was UU). If Eviolite Gothorita hadn't lost Shadow Tag, my team would be menacing in OU, competitive is good, but since I'm testing a foul play, swagger, reflect, rest moveset, it's a bit useless.
Frosslass got willow wisp, and when combined with some of her other moves, is wrecking things by totally shutting them down, especially one hit wonders like choice banders or setters.
Froslass @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Disable
- Substitute
She became practically impenetrable, and with 252 in hp, even if a Pheremosa comes in, a direct attack such as from Poison jab will do very little and allow her to burn Phero, while U-turn does negligeble damage.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-492220375
I'm still playing with EVs for Bellossom, now that she gots Quiver Dance, she's been going Toe to Toe with a lot of mons, especially when EV'd for HP and defense. Trying to find if she is as effective offensively EV'd.
Rockium-Z is being tested by Rampardos, with the slower mons of this gen, he's been having a lot of success. Bisharp was the only OU mon on my team(been using him since he was UU). If Eviolite Gothorita hadn't lost Shadow Tag, my team would be menacing in OU, competitive is good, but since I'm testing a foul play, swagger, reflect, rest moveset, it's a bit useless.
hello everyone, I'm new at the forums, but I have been playing in the simulator on and off for a couple years now. I'm excited to again play this gen once the meta becomes stable and the stupid things go away (as bad as Aegislash was, his ban has made it almost impossible to deal with Pheromosa). Until then, one that I keep seeing in this thread and others is that Gengar will drop in usage.
Something to consider is the current meta, which Gengar right now does pretty well in. So far I've seen at least one of the Tapus on every team, and Gengar threatens 3/4 with STAB sludge wave. The only who doesn't mind him much is Koko because he's faster and Electric Terrain boosted Thunderbolt OHKO's Gengar, though Koko still gets OHKO'd by Sludge Wave if, say, Gengar's behind a sub. And the other Tapus do not like him at all; Bulu and Lele get OHKOd by Sludge Wave (the latter by Shadow Ball) and Fini gets 2HKO'd at worst with Sludge wave, but can't really OHKO a healthy Gengar.
Tapu Fini with specs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 273-322 (105.4 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
^So mind you, Gengar can't switch in for free. But if you win the prediction, and since Gengar outspeeds it:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 322-382 (114.1 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Against the Utility Tapu Fini set:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 322-382 (93.6 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
^Utility Tapu Fini, I've seen mostly running something like Moon Blast with Lefties, which won't 2HKO Gengar.
Gengar OHKOs Tapu Lele, and Lele can do the same thing to it. But since Gengar is faster;
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 359-424 (127.7 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
^Same thing happens if Gengar uses Shadow Ball
Gengar OHKOs tapu Bulu, it's x4 weak to poison and is faster + resists all of Bulu's potential moveset (EDIT: Choice banded Bulu Wood Hammer under Grassy terrain OHKO's if Gengar switches in recklessly); you can figure out that calc yourself.
Also, I saw this brought up, but one nice thing about losing levitate means that Gengar benefits from the terrain the Tapus bring. Probably the best terrain for Gengar is Psychic to avoid priority like Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch from bypassing his speed, something that he struggled with a lot the previous gens, or Grassy terrain mitigating life orb recoil. Other, more situational options would be misty or electric terrain which avoids him getting statused, so he could forgo running Taunt for something like Destiny bond (despite the nerf, it's still ridiculously good to remove something as you go down), Icy Wind (for Lando especially) or Thunderbolt (extra coverage, pseudo-STAB under electric terrain). Though the Misty and Electric terrain stuff is mostly unnecessary, I thought I'd mention it cause I saw no one else had.
I'm over him losing Levitate, tbh, the introduction of the Tapus gives me a huge reason to use Gengar and benefiting from terrain is a nice indirect bonus.
Something to consider is the current meta, which Gengar right now does pretty well in. So far I've seen at least one of the Tapus on every team, and Gengar threatens 3/4 with STAB sludge wave. The only who doesn't mind him much is Koko because he's faster and Electric Terrain boosted Thunderbolt OHKO's Gengar, though Koko still gets OHKO'd by Sludge Wave if, say, Gengar's behind a sub. And the other Tapus do not like him at all; Bulu and Lele get OHKOd by Sludge Wave (the latter by Shadow Ball) and Fini gets 2HKO'd at worst with Sludge wave, but can't really OHKO a healthy Gengar.
Tapu Fini with specs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 273-322 (105.4 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
^So mind you, Gengar can't switch in for free. But if you win the prediction, and since Gengar outspeeds it:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 322-382 (114.1 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Against the Utility Tapu Fini set:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 322-382 (93.6 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
^Utility Tapu Fini, I've seen mostly running something like Moon Blast with Lefties, which won't 2HKO Gengar.
Gengar OHKOs Tapu Lele, and Lele can do the same thing to it. But since Gengar is faster;
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 359-424 (127.7 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
^Same thing happens if Gengar uses Shadow Ball
Gengar OHKOs tapu Bulu, it's x4 weak to poison and is faster + resists all of Bulu's potential moveset (EDIT: Choice banded Bulu Wood Hammer under Grassy terrain OHKO's if Gengar switches in recklessly); you can figure out that calc yourself.
Also, I saw this brought up, but one nice thing about losing levitate means that Gengar benefits from the terrain the Tapus bring. Probably the best terrain for Gengar is Psychic to avoid priority like Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch from bypassing his speed, something that he struggled with a lot the previous gens, or Grassy terrain mitigating life orb recoil. Other, more situational options would be misty or electric terrain which avoids him getting statused, so he could forgo running Taunt for something like Destiny bond (despite the nerf, it's still ridiculously good to remove something as you go down), Icy Wind (for Lando especially) or Thunderbolt (extra coverage, pseudo-STAB under electric terrain). Though the Misty and Electric terrain stuff is mostly unnecessary, I thought I'd mention it cause I saw no one else had.
I'm over him losing Levitate, tbh, the introduction of the Tapus gives me a huge reason to use Gengar and benefiting from terrain is a nice indirect bonus.
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