Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[macle]

I think a lot of people are kinda reading too much into the porygon vs conversion vote. Just because council voted to ban porygon does not mean we aren't ever gonna suspect a move or an ability this generation. It means that the majority of council members thought porygon should have been banned over conversion for various reasons.

 

[Fiend]

I realize Cutiefly is the point of discussion currently, but I know no one will change their mindset and effectively everyone thinks it is in one way or another busted. So I'm just going to move on from that mon and talk about Vullaby.

Honestly I hate Vullaby.

In ORAS I had a very standard core of Shellder / Fletchling / Pawniard that I used for a long time. Shellder and Fletchling were great and had good synergy plus were not dead weights. But Pawniard was added almost exclusively for Vullaby as it is more or less the only thing that takes on the Physical set well and it is the only mon that didn't lose offensive pressure in doing so. Then, I knew I was not using Vullaby as much as I should, because it even slotted in decently alongside or over Fletchling in my aforementioned core.

Now in SUMO, Vullaby got so much better. It's actually kind of stupid. Cottonee can no longer Encore it which makes is NP set a little better, Porygon is banned which makes all of its sets slightly better, Weak Armor got so much better which makes all Weak Armor sets like three times as good. Plus Fletchling has gone the way of the dodo, so Weak Armor sets are even a little (a lot, actually) harder to revenge kill. Between its physically offensive set, its Nasty Plot set, and its Z-Mirror Move set I have yet to see a reliable counter. Hell, like 2 days into SUMO, Heysup and Star built a team around SuperSonic Strike Vullaby and that thing is even obnoxious. It feels like you either need to be really good at guessing the set (sometimes it is obviously NP which is helpful) or simply not touch Vullaby and sack a Pokemon to the beat it which is really disheartening. But that's somewhat reliant on it being the correct item (BJ heals off of a rock slide/hjk then Mach Punch doesn't KO from that HP, for example), and this generation lacks a spam of priority which furthers the issue. Sucker Punch is resisted, Vacuum Wave too weak, Mach Punch barely strong enough and limited to Timburr. Aqua Jet is the only priority that does a lot (Corphish does 10 dmg to -1 Evio sets, and 12 or 14 to -1 BJ sets, and Carv does 9, and 12 to 13 respectively), and even then that's really not that much.

How does everyone else handle Vullaby? There has to be some creative ways to beat it other than sacking and revenge killing or hard switching directly into something that OHKOs (which also usually die if they attack instead of setting up!)

 

[Berks]

I realize Cutiefly is the point of discussion currently, but I know no one will change their mindset and effectively everyone thinks it is in one way or another busted. So I'm just going to move on from that mon and talk about Vullaby.

Honestly I hate Vullaby.

In ORAS I had a very standard core of Shellder / Fletchling / Pawniard that I used for a long time. Shellder and Fletchling were great and had good synergy plus were not dead weights. But Pawniard was added almost exclusively for Vullaby as it is more or less the only thing that takes on the Physical set well and it is the only mon that didn't lose offensive pressure in doing so. Then, I knew I was not using Vullaby as much as I should, because it even slotted in decently alongside or over Fletchling in my aforementioned core.

Now in SUMO, Vullaby got so much better. It's actually kind of stupid. Cottonee can no longer Encore it which makes is NP set a little better, Porygon is banned which makes all of its sets slightly better, Weak Armor got so much better which makes all Weak Armor sets like three times as good. Plus Fletchling has gone the way of the dodo, so Weak Armor sets are even a little (a lot, actually) harder to revenge kill. Between its physically offensive set, its Nasty Plot set, and its Z-Mirror Move set I have yet to see a reliable counter. Hell, like 2 days into SUMO, Heysup and Star built a team around SuperSonic Strike Vullaby and that thing is even obnoxious. It feels like you either need to be really good at guessing the set (sometimes it is obviously NP which is helpful) or simply not touch Vullaby and sack a Pokemon to the beat it which is really disheartening. But that's somewhat reliant on it being the correct item (BJ heals off of a rock slide/hjk then Mach Punch doesn't KO from that HP, for example), and this generation lacks a spam of priority which furthers the issue. Sucker Punch is resisted, Vacuum Wave too weak, Mach Punch barely strong enough and limited to Timburr. Aqua Jet is the only priority that does a lot (Corphish does 10 dmg to -1 Evio sets, and 12 or 14 to -1 BJ sets, and Carv does 9, and 12 to 13 respectively), and even then that's really not that much.

How does everyone else handle Vullaby? There has to be some creative ways to beat it other than sacking and revenge killing or hard switching directly into something that OHKOs (which also usually die if they attack instead of setting up!)

With Vullaby just ridiculously better, i've been using a whole lot more Onix, especially its new Eviolite weak armor set. Eviolite Dwebble has also been doing really well for me cause it also has the new weak armor buff and Rock Blast. Chinchou also still holds up, a lot like it did against Murkrow. I also like to Taunt switchins whenever i have a Mienfoo on the field because a stray U-Turn results in a free +2 Speed for a Vulla switchin. I agree tho, Vulla is a total bitch to play against right now!

 

[Shrug]

I realize Cutiefly is the point of discussion currently, but I know no one will change their mindset and effectively everyone thinks it is in one way or another busted. So I'm just going to move on from that mon and talk about Abra.

Honestly I hate Abra.

In ORAS I had a very standard core of Omanyte / Gastly / Ferroseed that I used for a long time. Omanyte and Gastly were great and had good synergy plus were not dead weights. But Ferroseed was added almost exclusively for Abra as it is more or less the only thing that takes on the LO set well and it is the only mon that didn't lose offensive pressure in doing so. Then, I knew I was not using Abra as much as I should, because it even slotted in decently alongside or over Gastly in my aforementioned core.

Now in SUMO, Abra got so much better. It's actually kind of stupid. Cottonee can no longer Encore it which makes its set a little better, Porygon is banned which makes all of its sets slightly better, the average speed got pulled down so LO sets became like three times as good. Plus Fletchling has gone the way of the dodo, so both of its sets have gotten a little (a lot, actually) harder to revenge kill. Between its LO set and its focus sash set I have yet to see a reliable counter. Hell, like 2 days into SUMO, everyone alive built a team around HP Ground abra and that thing is even obnoxious. It feels like you either need to be really good at guessing the set (sometimes it is obviously Sash which is helpful) or simply not touch Abra and sack a Pokemon to the beat it which is really disheartening. But that's somewhat reliant on it being the correct item, and this generation lacks a spam of priority which furthers the issue. Sucker Punch is blows, Vacuum Wave is resisted, Mach Punch is barely strong enough and limited to Timburr. Aqua Jet is the only priority that does a lot, and even then that's really not that much.

How does everyone else handle Abra? There has to be some creative ways to beat it other than sacking and revenge killing or hard switching directly into something that OHKOs (which also usually die if they attack instead of subbing!)

 

[vooper]

I realize Cutiefly is the point of discussion currently, but I know no one will change their mindset and effectively everyone thinks it is in one way or another busted. So I'm just going to move on from that mon and talk about Abra.

Honestly I hate Abra.

In ORAS I had a very standard core of Omanyte / Gastly / Ferroseed that I used for a long time. Omanyte and Gastly were great and had good synergy plus were not dead weights. But Ferroseed was added almost exclusively for Abra as it is more or less the only thing that takes on the LO set well and it is the only mon that didn't lose offensive pressure in doing so. Then, I knew I was not using Abra as much as I should, because it even slotted in decently alongside or over Gastly in my aforementioned core.

Now in SUMO, Abra got so much better. It's actually kind of stupid. Cottonee can no longer Encore it which makes its set a little better, Porygon is banned which makes all of its sets slightly better, the average speed got pulled down so LO sets became like three times as good. Plus Fletchling has gone the way of the dodo, so both of its sets have gotten a little (a lot, actually) harder to revenge kill. Between its LO set and its focus sash set I have yet to see a reliable counter. Hell, like 2 days into SUMO, everyone alive built a team around HP Ground abra and that thing is even obnoxious. It feels like you either need to be really good at guessing the set (sometimes it is obviously Sash which is helpful) or simply not touch Abra and sack a Pokemon to the beat it which is really disheartening. But that's somewhat reliant on it being the correct item, and this generation lacks a spam of priority which furthers the issue. Sucker Punch is blows, Vacuum Wave is resisted, Mach Punch is barely strong enough and limited to Timburr. Aqua Jet is the only priority that does a lot, and even then that's really not that much.

How does everyone else handle Abra? There has to be some creative ways to beat it other than sacking and revenge killing or hard switching directly into something that OHKOs (which also usually die if they attack instead of subbing!)

I have personally been really enjoying alolan grimer for this reason. It can pursuit trap abra and if you predict right outspeed it with shadow sneak priority which is something you didn't mention!. It works as a stunky but a lot better imo. Grimer beats gastly and actually tanks a lot more than it looks like it could. Bronzor can also beat non shadow ball abras and so can gothita which are 2 choices I also use.

 

[fatty]

yeah i think the biggest thing abra has going against it is you can literally slap on alolan-grimer or stunky on a team and it's essentially nullified. not to mention, you can usually get by with one switch-in (doesn't even have to be perfect, could even be a random dark type that deters psychic) and mb a mon faster and you pretty much have it covered. yeah sub lo is annoying, but idk about you guys but when i see an abra sub i almost breath a sigh of relief. i will not deny, abra beats a lot of shit 1v1, can be the greatest revenge killer in the game, is a nuke at times, and can be a general pain in the ass to play against, but even with the things it has going for it rn i still don't get the broken / overhwhelming vibe. this could change though, i wanna see meta after cutie dies.

 

[macle]

Council has voted to ban Cutiefly with an 11 pro-ban votes to 1 no-ban vote (plus a lack of a vote). Cutiefly's ability to baton pass Quiver Dance's boosts to teammates such as Magnemite or any other of the multitude of Pokemon who enjoy two of the three boosts provided from QD has been proven to be too strong for the LC metagame. Thank you council for participating in discussion.

RIP

Council votes

Basically I think cutiefly is borked as shit. Despite having a crap BST qd allows it to become an insanely good offensive sweeper and also has the ability to pass the boosts around with BP. It's overwhelming to prepare for cutiefly because even outside phazing for BP there's still sets like 3 attack and even LO that are insanely dangerous due to its amazing speed tier and decent special attack and perfect coverage on every mon in LC. Overall cutie's an insane mon to deal with even outside of BP and should go

i was told this was the option for a man in my predicament? although i recognize there is a problem with cutiefly, i do not believe it is indicative of cutiefly being broken, but rather due to a broken move in that of baton pass. for this reason, as well as there not being a viable third option, i can't justify banning cutiefly entirely, and thus i don't it should be banned.

Following the logic set by our last suspect, we do not ban moves--even unique moves--unless absolutely necessary. If we are to ban a move it should be broken on enough viable Pokemon that it is clearly the issue; Quiver Dance is not the case, though it is extremely good yet only busted when used in tandem with BP. BP is similarly extremely good, but LC is so full of passers that are not broken that one should not be able to successfully argue that, in the current metagame, Baton Pass is broken. Therefore we are left with only the option of a complex ban of QD + BP or banning Cutiefly, the latter of which is a complex ban and a last resort while former is a standard ban. It's sucks to say, but ban Cutifely.

I vote to ban Cutiefly; I disagree with banning the pokemon when we can just as well solve the issue by banning a facet of the pokemon without collateral or complex bans, but seeing how we decided to set poor precedent by banning Porygon instead of Conversion, we should follow this precedent (which had an even stronger case to not ban the Pokemon) until the Porygon decision is reversed.

I vote for ban Cutiefly.

I'm really against this and I think Quiver Dance is totally the only broken part in Cutiefly, however, we already set a bad precedent with Porygon so we have to show consistency. I'm really opened to change this if we somehow decide to retest or make any other decision on the Porygon ban, but until then, we have to follow the precedent that we have set for consistency. About Cutiefly, the QD 3 attacks set has no counters other than Munchlax, and its ability to Baton Pass those qd boosts into other threats is just too much.

I vote to ban Cutiefly. Cutiefly is, as a sweeper, not insanely powerful like Porygon was, but once its checks have been removed or weakened, it sweeps very well. It has high speed and a very nice typing to do this with. Without Baton Pass, Cutiefly would be a sweeper much like Omanyte is used: a late-game powerhouse that you can't have the wrong Pokemon in front of or you lose. However, unlike Shellder or Omanyte or Torchic or any other booster in LC, Cutiefly has two options for using its boosts, pass or attack. Torchic is reserved for full passing and has a hard time sweeping with just Speed boosts, while Omanyte and Shellder lack Baton Pass. Cutiefly's high Speed, great typing, and passable defenses with Eviolite make it far more threatening that any other sweeper with a boost up, with only a few specialized hard counters. Cutiefly is broken because of it's access to Quiver Dance + Baton Pass and the right stats and typing to use it effectively both as a sweeper or as a passer.

Ban Cutiefly

Cutiefly's abilities to pass Quiver Dance or threaten to sweep on its own are just too strong. It's very easy to set-up and once you do, there aren't many answers. Cutiefly is currently restricting teambuilding too much to be healthy and still manages to do well when opponents bring multiple good checks. Banning Quiver Dance doesn't make any sense to me, policy wise, and I feel Baton Pass isn't broken outside of Cutiefly.

ban cutiefly:

baton pass is not broken enough elsewhere to justify a ban and quiver dance is cant be banned on the porygon / converzion premise. cutiepass is broke as hell - sets up on so much and throws the boosts to nearly any pokemon. qd + attacks has enough to keep dudes on their toes aswell, limiting options. broken, ban it

I think it's in the best interest of the metagame, that the TL's, as policy setters, we stay in line with the policies we set. We do not ban moves. We had Porygon banned, and unless you were convinced that Porygon was broken independent of Conversion, that's a precedent we set. I disagree with the line put at the bottom of macle's post. They just simply shouldn't be options, unless BP is argued that it breaks multiple Pokemon, which it hasn't been.

With that in mind, unfortunately, I think Cutiefly has to go.

porygon set a precedent, ban cutiefly

Cutiefly's ability to pass off qd boosts is bonkers with its typing and speed stat. ban

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Great now my articles going to have to get even longer. Personally I think implementing the Baton Pass clause would've been a better solution but what's done is done.

 

[Berks]

Again I'd like to ask when we're going to get to the point of a suspect that involves the community? Like maybe after SPL? Never? The next one? ???

 

[fitzy72]

On that note is there any plan to make public the councils votes and discussion more than a one liner? I'd love to know who voted for what, how much the discussion here swayed the council and just a more detailed idea of what really makes Cutiefly and Porygon broken.

 

[Ramplestilskin]

"We're banning Cutiefly because the fact that a random pokemon is able to baton pass quiver dance boosts is broken" gg

 

[Kavatika]

On that note is there any plan to make public the councils votes and discussion more than a one liner? I'd love to know who voted for what, how much the discussion here swayed the council and just a more detailed idea of what really makes Cutiefly and Porygon broken.

Echoing this. If we're moving to a council vote for this generation, there needs to at least be transparency involved in the process. This should also help for newer players trying to get involved, as just from briefly lurking in the PS Room, I've seen a lot of players asking about various policy decisions.

 

[fatty]

Tried to challenge dudes to actually talk about Cutiefly in this thread, yet seems like barely any of them felt the need. I completely agree that this council stuff needs to be way more transparent. I realize we're trying to get the tier ready for SPL, but we have a whole player base to cater to that should take precedence over the 10 or so people that will be playing that.

With that said, I think this should be the last council-only suspect.

 

[TheTraininator]

Lack of council talk aside, the Cutiefly ban seems fair to me. No other Baton Passer in Little Cup is remotely in the same tier as Cutiefly, so a Baton Pass ban is currently off the table, and if Conversion was not going to get banned to save Porygon, then there is no reason why Quiver Dance should be banned to save Cutiefly. If Little Cup ever gets more ridiculous Baton Passers, then I would think a flat BP ban would be more effective and healthy, but at the moment Cutiefly is the only real offender.

 

[dsr95]

Tried to challenge dudes to actually talk about Cutiefly in this thread, yet seems like barely any of them felt the need. I completely agree that this council stuff needs to be way more transparent. I realize we're trying to get the tier ready for SPL, but we have a whole player base to cater to that should take precedence over the 10 or so people that will be playing that.

With that said, I think this should be the last council-only suspect.

I agree with this. The way it looks right now is like "HEY X IS BANNED NOW." and 2 weeks later "ALSO Y WAS JUST BANNED". It looks a bit bad imo because a lot of our newer playerbase doesn't even realize what the hell is going on.

 

[Coconut]

Council has voted to ban Cutiefly. Cutiefly's ability to baton pass Quiver Dance's boosts to teammates like Magnemite has been proved to be too strong for the LC metagame. Thank you council for participating in discussion.

RIP

The Immortal

 

[The Avalanches]

You guys are psychotic lmao

I love you all dearly, but I'm not regretting my switch to TCG one bit

 

[macle]

if you want votes, here they are for cutiefly

Hide

Basically I think cutiefly is borked as shit. Despite having a crap BST qd allows it to become an insanely good offensive sweeper and also has the ability to pass the boosts around with BP. It's overwhelming to prepare for cutiefly because even outside phazing for BP there's still sets like 3 attack and even LO that are insanely dangerous due to its amazing speed tier and decent special attack and perfect coverage on every mon in LC. Overall cutie's an insane mon to deal with even outside of BP and should go

i was told this was the option for a man in my predicament? although i recognize there is a problem with cutiefly, i do not believe it is indicative of cutiefly being broken, but rather due to a broken move in that of baton pass. for this reason, as well as there not being a viable third option, i can't justify banning cutiefly entirely, and thus i don't it should be banned.

Following the logic set by our last suspect, we do not ban moves--even unique moves--unless absolutely necessary. If we are to ban a move it should be broken on enough viable Pokemon that it is clearly the issue; Quiver Dance is not the case, though it is extremely good yet only busted when used in tandem with BP. BP is similarly extremely good, but LC is so full of passers that are not broken that one should not be able to successfully argue that, in the current metagame, Baton Pass is broken. Therefore we are left with only the option of a complex ban of QD + BP or banning Cutiefly, the latter of which is a complex ban and a last resort while former is a standard ban. It's sucks to say, but ban Cutifely.

I vote to ban Cutiefly; I disagree with banning the pokemon when we can just as well solve the issue by banning a facet of the pokemon without collateral or complex bans, but seeing how we decided to set poor precedent by banning Porygon instead of Conversion, we should follow this precedent (which had an even stronger case to not ban the Pokemon) until the Porygon decision is reversed.

I vote for ban Cutiefly.

I'm really against this and I think Quiver Dance is totally the only broken part in Cutiefly, however, we already set a bad precedent with Porygon so we have to show consistency. I'm really opened to change this if we somehow decide to retest or make any other decision on the Porygon ban, but until then, we have to follow the precedent that we have set for consistency. About Cutiefly, the QD 3 attacks set has no counters other than Munchlax, and its ability to Baton Pass those qd boosts into other threats is just too much.

I vote to ban Cutiefly. Cutiefly is, as a sweeper, not insanely powerful like Porygon was, but once its checks have been removed or weakened, it sweeps very well. It has high speed and a very nice typing to do this with. Without Baton Pass, Cutiefly would be a sweeper much like Omanyte is used: a late-game powerhouse that you can't have the wrong Pokemon in front of or you lose. However, unlike Shellder or Omanyte or Torchic or any other booster in LC, Cutiefly has two options for using its boosts, pass or attack. Torchic is reserved for full passing and has a hard time sweeping with just Speed boosts, while Omanyte and Shellder lack Baton Pass. Cutiefly's high Speed, great typing, and passable defenses with Eviolite make it far more threatening that any other sweeper with a boost up, with only a few specialized hard counters. Cutiefly is broken because of it's access to Quiver Dance + Baton Pass and the right stats and typing to use it effectively both as a sweeper or as a passer.

Ban Cutiefly

Cutiefly's abilities to pass Quiver Dance or threaten to sweep on its own are just too strong. It's very easy to set-up and once you do, there aren't many answers. Cutiefly is currently restricting teambuilding too much to be healthy and still manages to do well when opponents bring multiple good checks. Banning Quiver Dance doesn't make any sense to me, policy wise, and I feel Baton Pass isn't broken outside of Cutiefly.

ban cutiefly:

baton pass is not broken enough elsewhere to justify a ban and quiver dance is cant be banned on the porygon / converzion premise. cutiepass is broke as hell - sets up on so much and throws the boosts to nearly any pokemon. qd + attacks has enough to keep dudes on their toes aswell, limiting options. broken, ban it

I think it's in the best interest of the metagame, that the TL's, as policy setters, we stay in line with the policies we set. We do not ban moves. We had Porygon banned, and unless you were convinced that Porygon was broken independent of Conversion, that's a precedent we set. I disagree with the line put at the bottom of macle's post. They just simply shouldn't be options, unless BP is argued that it breaks multiple Pokemon, which it hasn't been.

With that in mind, unfortunately, I think Cutiefly has to go.

porygon set a precedent, ban cutiefly

Cutiefly's ability to pass off qd boosts is bonkers with its typing and speed stat. ban

 

[Nineage]

Honestly, I'm extremely disappointed with this decision.

Whether cutie was broken, the move was broken, or whatever, the fact is that no aspect of cutiefly was so outrageously metagame defining that I think it justified such a quick reaction that did not involve the community. I would like to ask Quote and macle directly to explain the reasoning behind not bringing this to a full suspect, or to have more of a general community discussion. This kind of vote only serves to piss people off, and seems to me to be justifiable only in extreme circumstances.

I was going to write a longer post, but really I'm just interested in the reasoning behind this decision before I start arguing.

 

[macle]

Honestly, I'm extremely disappointed with this decision.

Whether cutie was broken, the move was broken, or whatever, the fact is that no aspect of cutiefly was so outrageously metagame defining that I think it justified such a quick reaction that did not involve the community. I would like to ask Quote and macle directly to explain the reasoning behind not bringing this to a full suspect, or to have more of a general community discussion. This kind of vote only serves to piss people off, and seems to me to be justifiable only in extreme circumstances.

I was going to write a longer post, but really I'm just interested in the reasoning behind this decision before I start arguing.

So just to update everyone, the council is currently discussing Cutiefly, and by the sounds of things, we'll be voting on it this week. Naturally we encourage discussion on it, but seeing as how we were discussing it before Porygon, I think most of us have made up our minds.

We literally told you we were gonna do this and you waited until after the vote to post. I'm pretty sure most people would agree that we have talked about how broken cutie was on discord and a bit in this thread. We also decided we wanted a balanced metagame by the start of SPL and banning a Pokemon that the whole council views as a problem in lc isnt that extreme.

I am open to more suspect tests in the future but im not gonna spend 3 weeks to ban a broken mon, holding up c&c and other things.

 

[Berks]

We literally told you we were gonna do this and you waited until after the vote to post. I'm pretty sure most people would agree that we have talked about how broken cutie was on discord and a bit in this thread. We also decided we wanted a balanced metagame by the start of SPL and banning a Pokemon that the whole council views as a problem in lc isnt that extreme.

I am open to more suspect tests in the future but im not gonna spend 3 weeks to ban a broken mon, holding up c&c and other things.

That is definitely fair, but not everyone is on discord and it'd be nice to get some insight on the opinions and discussions of the council at large! We 100% appreciate what you're doing for the meta, but we'd also like to be a little bit more in the know, and I think that's pretty fair!

 

[Linkin Karp]

I think a lot of people are kinda reading too much into the porygon vs conversion vote. Just because council voted to ban porygon does not mean we aren't ever gonna suspect a move or an ability this generation. It means that the majority of council members thought porygon should have been banned over conversion for various reasons.

7 of 10 pro-ban votes stated that banning Cutiefly entirely instead of QD/BP is fucking nonsense but muh precedent and muh policies. That's also the only reason someone voted no ban. Mind explaining?

 

[macle]

7 of 10 pro-ban votes stated that banning Cutiefly entirely instead of QD/BP is fucking nonsense but muh precedent and muh policies. That's also the only reason someone voted no ban. Mind explaining?

only 3 of them said but i dont know why you are quoting my post with that. 11 of the council members agreed that something is broken is the point I was making.

 

[Heysup]

I think a lot of people are kinda reading too much into the porygon vs conversion vote. Just because council voted to ban porygon does not mean we aren't ever gonna suspect a move or an ability this generation. It means that the majority of council members thought porygon should have been banned over conversion for various reasons.

I know I'm going to just be ignored again but I really think it would be beneficial for someone with authority to actually state the policy we're enforcing. Allowing us to vote on Conversion versus Porygon is a half measure. The fact that we banned Porygon resulted in a half measure. We need to be more transparent in what our policy is. We need to make sure council members are actually informed about this policy.

I'll write what I think it is at the end of the post.

Honestly, I'm extremely disappointed with this decision.

Whether cutie was broken, the move was broken, or whatever, the fact is that no aspect of cutiefly was so outrageously metagame defining that I think it justified such a quick reaction that did not involve the community. I would like to ask Quote and macle directly to explain the reasoning behind not bringing this to a full suspect, or to have more of a general community discussion. This kind of vote only serves to piss people off, and seems to me to be justifiable only in extreme circumstances.

I was going to write a longer post, but really I'm just interested in the reasoning behind this decision before I start arguing.

Well naturally you can't please everyone, but I think the fact that you call this a quick reaction is an extreme exaggeration. Cutiefly has been usable for like a month now. We've been abusing it to hell like everyone else for the entire month. Cutiefly was in consideration to even be the first thing gone before very smart people figured out you can change Porygon's type while boosting. I think a lot of Porygon's power actually came from being an insanely good recipient for Cutiefly. The most reliable and busted Porygon teams involve Cutiefly for this reason. I actually think it would be more accurate to describe the Porygon teams as Cutiefly teams with a Porygon recipient, seeing how they were built around Quiver Pass. Quiver Pass with Cutie's amazing typing and Speed was already insane, but having to prepare for Quiver Pass + like 3 other dangerous movesets (QD + 3 Atks, LO + 4 Attacks, Bulky Theif) all of which could be run with LO or Eviolite and varying spreads made it really hard to not sacrifice a few Pokemon to it in order to stop it from setting up (ie. if you're Timburr, you get nuked by LO Moonblast just because you can't afford to let a Eviolite QD set up etc). Magnemite, Staryu, Abra, Snivy, Natu etc, made almost unstoppable recipients. It was obvious to me and I'm probably the most anti-ban council member (cuz im old).

Why this wasn't a full suspect, besides its obviousness, is because we are trying to get the metagame stable before SPL and I think it is somewhat now. Besides the length of the process, it's quite clear that many people of the mob do not understand how policy even works or don't understand why it's important. No other metagame has the community making decisions. In fact, we have the biggest council out of all of the metagames.

That being said, I do think community involvement is important and should nominate the suspects (with TL's guidance on what fits within the policy, ie. allowing / not allowing moves to be voted for, etc).

7 of 10 pro-ban votes stated that banning Cutiefly entirely instead of QD/BP is fucking nonsense but muh precedent and muh policies. That's also the only reason someone voted no ban. Mind explaining?

Macle is doing his best to confuse the shit out of people with some contradictory viewpoints, is my simple explanation. If you followed the PR threads about this, there were two philosophies we could follow. One was to ban whatever had the least collateral. That is the path I thought we should take, but unfortunately I was in the minority. As a council, by a whopping 10-3 we chose the path that's philosophy is that we, at the very least, do not ban moves that only break one Pokemon. We ban Pokemon and only resort to other things potentially if there is an extreme situation.

While I think it's quite a weak argument personally (but ily fatty), he thought that Baton Pass was broken on multiple Pokemon. That, or he doesn't understand that we already decided that banning a unique move is not something we do, as a council.

You guys are psychotic lmao

I love you all dearly, but I'm not regretting my switch to TCG one bit

I think most of the problem is input from people who don't have any metagame experience.

On that note is there any plan to make public the councils votes and discussion more than a one liner? I'd love to know who voted for what, how much the discussion here swayed the council and just a more detailed idea of what really makes Cutiefly and Porygon broken.

I agree. I've stated it above already, but Cutiefly's Quiver Pass was an absurdly hard thing to handle. You can phaze it around if you want but it's still hard to stop throughout the match. It's incredibly bulky using it's typing and already high Speed stat, it's EVs can all be dumped in bulk. It will be at 23/21/22/24 before being hit by almost anything in the metagame (including Eviolite, and one Quiver Dance). The most reliable counter is Munchlax because it's not trapped by Gothita very easily, however it is quite trappable with either LO or Reversal Diglett and it's easy to wear it down with all of the insanely powerful Fighting-types and Pawniard floating around, especially with Munchlax's limited coverage from recycle + Whirlwind taking up 2 move slots. Eventually, Munchlax needs to Rest or Recycle.

I mean, Porygon was already insane last Gen, but the +1 and typing change was too much. It 1v1's almost the entirety of the metagame. Again, the only legitimate stop was Munchlax but, the same thing applies as with Cutiefly, except that Porygon hits harder. I'm pretty sure that +1 tbolt followed by a +2 Tbolt 2HKOes.

 

[KaioNabuco]

Not surprising but certainly sad. A shame, I really loved the Pokémon. People should acknowledge that the council is doing its best to make the meta enjoyable and stop raging over it.

I guess the post above mine's ends this discussion.