On the top half...
You were comparing BSTs, a combination of six stats, in a vacuum vs BPs in a vacuum along with a vague indicator of type of attacker or bulky. And even then, most of those have the stats to run other roles, such as Special P.Don, Support P.Ogre, Bulky Mega-Ray, etc, whether that's the "best" role or not. Meanwhile, a move is... a move. You can't use "Bulky Genesis Supernova" or "Support Malicious Moonsault". And blanket statements that "180 bp dropping stats is worse than 100 bp stealing stats" is highly inaccurate otheriwse P.Don would always run Spectral Thief over V-Create or using ummm... blank(?) over Steam Eruption. (Origin Pulse? Scald? Surf? What were you saying there?) Plus... I'm not even going to get into how a BP 180 move that dropped ALL stats would be horrifically broken on a Contrary user, thus making the move pretty damn godlike despite its drawbacks.
Better doesn't mean outclassed? Pdon and MMx are pretty much the only pokemon that use v-create, maybe MRay; Spectral theif has dozens of users, and is basically good regardless of stats; you could have an attack of 5. Hellp, look at genesis supernova; it's the most dangerous of the attacking Z-moves, simply because it has a secondary affect. As far as moves are concerned, BP is hardly the biggest concern... unlike how BST is the biggest concern on mons. Yes, there is correlation, but less so than BST has.
And yes, you cant use support Malicious Moonslaught, but you can't use Bulky Deoxys-A either. On the other hand, you can use both offensive and support Knock Off, or offensive and Support sacred fire, scald, spectral thief, core neforcer, etc. Move shave less statisctics than pokemon, so yes, they aren't as versatile, but saying that BP is the only, or even really primary, determiner of the value of a move is really silly and just plain wrong.
Hyper Beam-esque moves, meanwhile, are an exception, just like a mon with high BST but crap distribution is crap, since their drawback gives them an effective BP of 75. Explosion, on the other hand, is pretty darn good. It's like Innards Out or Prankster D.Bond, just with different situational uses and often used on an -ate. Sure, it got nerfed hard with -ate clause since you can no longer run the hilariously effective strategy of six Choice Band Explosion Refrigerate Kyu-Bs. You can't call a move that has enough power to potentially take out a resistant wall in a single shot pre-510 crap and then consider suspecting Innards Out, even if we rarely run the former.
And as for 1 PP... did you play Deo-A spam? I did. It was boring. So much that I nearly gave up and used a normal team for the last stretch of reqs. And guess which Deo-A was the most useless on my team? The Leppa Berry one. The limitation of only 1 PP hardly mattered in most instances. If my Deo-A lost enough PP to become useless... hey, guess what, I had more Deo-As with CFZs! I didn't give a damn, the next one was nuking Yveltal's ass either way, except this time I know it has Protect so I can play around it. Literally the only time PP became the death of me was when I came across a random Prankster Electrify Landorous and my Psychic Surge Deo-A was dead. Trust me, one PP is enough. I OHKOed enough Registeel with Oceanic Opera or SSSSS or Castropika to know.
Also... if you don't want to "ban arbitrary things" without delaying future suspects, how do you propose we manage to all come to enough consensus to pick which CFZs to ban in about a week's time? Honestly here, we're on... what is it, Day 3 of this exchange just between us? And neither of us has convinced the other.
Yes? You just argued my point? High base power isn't enough; if you want to say a move is broken, you have to do more than list it's /dt facts with an editorial or two.
Don't mention pre-510, please, because that's totally irrelevant. As for the rest of thI have to admit i don't have a clue what point you're trying to make, so consider rewording it or explaining?
"
I OHKOed enough Registeel with Oceanic Opera or SSSSS or Castropika to know."
252+ Atk Deoxys-Attack Catastropika vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 225-265 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Deoxys-Attack Oceanic Operetta vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Registeel: 209-247 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Deoxys-Attack Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 209-246 (57.4 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Did you really even play the metagame? Well no, you made recs so I'm sure you did, but I'm still bamboozled as to where you came up with this crap.
Like, if you're one of the people arguing, saying "we haven't come to an agreement yet, so do what I want" as reason to support your side... is really bullshit? I'm not sure how your not seeing this.
On the bottom half...
You're sacrificing an ability slot and hoping the enemy makes a switch in your strategy for that to work. Either way, two move slots or move and ability slot is still "two sacrificed resources", so I feel that's a moot point. Only, one doesn't require the opponent to switch in.
And for the purposes of BH, no, Megas are just more Pokemon with good BST, enough to rival the legendaries we spam all the time. Nothing would change for us if they were just another normal evolution or whatever, their evolution mechanics matter more to other tiers. And we have tons of Pokemon that match, rival, or exceed them, whether they be legendary or ultra beast or, in a few cases, just a normal Pokemon (hi Aegislash!) Even without their crystals, however, CFZs are quite unique in that they have 1 PP, partially bypass Protect, and their BP is only rivaled by V-Create, Self-Destruct, and Explosion, three strong moves with hefty drawbacks. All of the other regularly moves hover from 90-110 BP. And considering how BP is multiplicative when it comes to STAB, effectiveness, items, and abilities (additively multiplicative when you have several multipliers. Its... weird, but it's how it works), something with ~180 is utterly insane.
Oceanic Opera 195 + STAB (97.5) = 292.5
Steam Eruption 110 + STAB (55) = 165 + Choice Specs (55) = 220 (roughly, it doesn't work quite that way with Band/Specs, but the math actually gets you only a few HP different so its literally close enough)
110 + Water Bubble (110) = 220 + STAB (55) = 275
STAB Oceanic Opera is literally stronger than Water Bubble STAB Steam Eruption or Choice Specs Steam Eruption. For the low cost of a 1 PP move, you can nuke the hell out of something while being free to pick whatever ability or item you please. How is that even okay? If Huge Power was unbanned, the math would work out for all of the physical CFZs vs the next best thing with the same type!
No, that requires them to switch in two, or else they can just recover, or OHKO with metal burst; if you arent using on of those moves on the switch, then you arent winning. But hey, that was one example, want another?
Mewtwo-Mega-X Nature's Madness vs. 248 HP Giratina: 251-251 (49.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 270-320 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Two moves, Koed Giratina! Ok, there's a 20% chance to live after leftovers, but rocks are a thing, and still.
Or replace Nature's Madness with clanging scales, that has about the same chance (Albeit less useful)
Um. No. Mega Evolutions aren't "a match for legendaries, they are better then them, by even more than Z-moves are over regular moves. MRay, Primal Groudon*, Primal Kyogre, MMY, and MMX aren't just "Near the top" like Z-moves; they
are the top, there are none higher. BST directly, irrefutably correlates with power; of the top 7 BST Pokemon, 4 are S rank, 2 are A+, and 1 B, while the top 7 BST (10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt, Catastropika, Explosion, Oceanic Operetta, Pulverizing Pancake, Self-Destruct, Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike) are not the top 7, or even the top 3, moves.
No, you have no idea what you are talking about. None of this is true.
I'm not sure where you picked this up, but this is all false. BP is not additively multipicative when it comes to stab+items:
252+ SpA Deoxys-Attack Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 131-155 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 197-232 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(50% increase)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 295-348 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(50% Increase)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 590-696 (183.8 - 216.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(100% increase)
Because they would be broken with huge power, ban all z-moves? That's rlly dumb, especially since we, y'know, banned huge power already.
