BH Balanced Hackmons

Balanced Freakmons there's a massive leap between being self imposterproof and being imposterproofed by another mon, Zekrom essentially sets up once, KyuremW might get one kill and then will be forced out by Chansey, losing every bitty bit of momentum the player might have gained in the process of setting up an adequate set up situation. It also means that attempting to set up again will be much harder. You can't just brush it off like it's irrelevant when it's in fact a massive advantage.

Rayquaza in gen 6 was significantly easier to set up, it heals so it can set up multiple times in the battle, it has priority and it has substitute meaning it blocked topsy turvy (the most popular way to beat set up at the time) and made it easy to threaten most passive support mons (that you don't really see in gen7). So for one it could beat Chansey if it was already behind a sub (or at least get up a safe spore) and it could more easily set up multiple times through the battle.
 
motherlove as long as i switch my kuyrem to my registeel against the imposter, i pratically obey them to switch as well next. I have U-turn, then the momentum is with me again. It's just other way to imposteproof a mon. I just don't find it as bad as Electrolyte was saying that my Kyurem was not self-imposter proof. Tbh, i prefer this kind of play. And the set up again is not really important, since Kyurem-W is extremely threatning even at +0. Kyurem doesnt need a boost to wallbreak something like Zygarde, Yveltal, Audino, Arceus, Groudon, Giratina, etc. Rayquaza needed it tho.
 
Here is a set stupid in theory but effective in practice.
Regigigas @ Safety Goggles/Leftovers
Ability: Normalize
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Spectral Thief
- Spore/Rapid Spin
- Shell Smash

Safety Googles with Spore, Rapid Spin with Leftovers or whatever.
Remember that being a normal type makes you immune to spectral thief? Well it's no longer your case with this set! Beside the STAB on everything, the whole point of this set is to nail normal type setup sweepers. The longer you can cover your ability the better it is. If you manage to score a Spectral Thief on something that would take the same damage feigning a ghost type, (for example Xerneas, Tyranitar, Zygarde, and so on), you'll reinforce the idea in your opponent that your ability isn't Normalize.
This Regigigas plays stupidly awesome vs imposters, because they don't automatically know that Spectral Thief can actually hit them (imposters will see Spectral Thief as a ghost move). Either Shell Smash at will or if you already have Shell Smashed, press Spectral Thief and start sweeping. All of this is walled by any ghost type. Safety Googles are required on ghost types and Regigigas if you are running Spore.
 
Here is a set stupid in theory but effective in practice.
Regigigas @ Safety Goggles/Leftovers
Ability: Normalize
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Spectral Thief
- Spore/Rapid Spin
- Shell Smash

Safety Googles with Spore, Rapid Spin with Leftovers or whatever.
Remember that being a normal type makes you immune to spectral thief? Well it's no longer your case with this set! Beside the STAB on everything, the whole point of this set is to nail normal type setup sweepers. The longer you can cover your ability the better it is. If you manage to score a Spectral Thief on something that would take the same damage feigning a ghost type, (for example Xerneas, Tyranitar, Zygarde, and so on), you'll reinforce the idea in your opponent that your ability isn't Normalize.
This Regigigas plays stupidly awesome vs imposters, because they don't automatically know that Spectral Thief can actually hit them (imposters will see Spectral Thief as a ghost move). Either Shell Smash at will or if you already have Shell Smashed, press Spectral Thief and start sweeping. All of this is walled by any ghost type. Safety Googles are required on ghost types and Regigigas if you are running Spore.
Another option for damaging moves is power trip to smack all those dark types who dare to switch in. Completely theorymoning though so it could be useless.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
let's talk about BH DOUBLES

BH Doubles is basically BH, except it's doubles. It was the Leader's Choice for a month back in Gen VI, and I played it for a while. Due to the nature of Doubles, classic BH sets perform differently. Here's a little guide:

Setup mons are less centralizing because in a 2v2 meta, it's very likely that they can be KO'd in a single turn. Even after a turn of setup, they can only hit one opponent (unless they're using a spread move) and they're forced to take the hit from the other opponent. I mean they still hit really hard but some stuff can just do that right off the bat.
Sturdy Shedinja is kind of bad too because Spiky Shield is good in Doubles, and offensive teams can deal with it easily thanks to the addition of Sunsteel Strike/Moongeist Beam. However, it can get off an Endeavor more easily because it can hit either opponent, so a Sash Magic Guard set might see use.
Prankster is really really good. Prankster Safeguard is borderline mandatory against stuff like Spore Deoxys-Speed, and Glare is great to slow down those speedy opponents while your other mon protects. Make sure you use Haze for dumb stuff like Follow Me Innards Out Chansey + Belly Drum Slaking. Z Destiny Bond? Yes please
-ate speed is good because it exerts amazing pressure with an actually strong Fake Out. Free turns are everything in Doubles because a flinch on a certain mon can prevent your opponent from setting up Trick Room, using Recover, and so on while allowing your other mon to do whatever they want.
Psychic Terrain is going to be incredible and maybe even suspect worthy. Those mons that used to get 2HKO'ed (like Registeel) can now be KO'd in a single turn by Psystrike/Psycho Boost. Even without CFZs (which are already broken enough in doubles. one Genesis Supernova not enough? try two), the mons that can abuse this will just invalidate everything defensive except bad stuff like RegenVest. Misty/Electric/Grassy Surge will be used on slower mons as counterplay because this is absolutely insane. no priority? coooooooooooool
Imposter Chansey is so good that it's honestly worth running two. Setup sweepers that have to run Judgment or something are bad so that means less stuff is Imposter proof, and Tailwind gives you an actually reliable way of winning the speed tie. Don't use Pikachu because it's absolutely terrible: the nice thing about Imposters here is that they can actually take hits.
Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam are bad because they don't really hit anything besides Sturdy Shedinja. Still might be worth using low ladder to get rid of that guy tho.
Spiky Shield is almost mandatory on every offensive mon. Being able to waste your opponent's time when they attack you is great and it also lets your other mon spam broken stuff like Refrigerate Boomburst or something. Feint isn't worth it from my experience because Spiky Shield is less common than it should be, and King's Shield is bad because the other player can just Will-O-Wisp you or something.
Speed control is great. Always make sure you're prepared for it. Be aware that Trick Room setters often hold Mental Herb, and Tailwind setters can have Prankster. Fake Out is good for both of them except the other mon might have Psychic Surge or something. Paralysis is good despite the nerf. Having your mons destroy stuff first is invaluable and something that should be on every team.
Dual Screens might actually be really cool. I can see Hail + Aurora Veil + Kyurem-W or something taking off. Brick Break is nonexistent and it's nice to have that CB Primal Groudon Thousand Arrows turned into a 3HKO, that Dragon Ascent doing a mere 60% to your frail sweeper.
SHORE UP

Overall the addition of Terrain setters looks like this meta will be really fun to play. The combos are going to be lit. Sand Stream + Grassy Terrain stall? Misty Surge Follow Me Registeel + Pixilate Shell Smash White Herb Xerneas? Electric Terrain + Rain + Swift Swim Primal Kyogre + Galvanize Zekrom for Imposters? OH YES
 

anaconja

long day at job
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I have another good and pretty underrated set:



Top Kek (Tapu Koko) @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability / Technician (not sure which would do more damage)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Parabolic Charge
- Draining Kiss
- Earth Power

Although Tapu Koko has a pretty bad 95 SpA (compared to, say, POgre), Tail Glow boosts it to become very dangerous and overwhelming. Parabolic Charge and Draining Kiss both get STAB and a boost, mitigating their low base power and helping it stay longer to sweep. Earth Power hits PDon and Steel types. The Focus Sash is to live a hit, though you can use Life Orb to further increase damage outputs.
 
One of the reasons Triage Ray is so good is because it has so much power. Tapu Koko can't even 3HKO Leftovers Registeel with +0 Earth Power - And this assumes you run Life Orb! Additionally, Tapu Koko is so frail that you aren't going to get a chance to boost, and that set has no way to protect itself against Priority either, so it's getting picked off by Water Shurikens and ExtremeSpeeds.
 
Ability: Adaptability / Technician (not sure which would do more damage)
To answer your question...

252 SpA Adaptability Tapu Koko Parabolic Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 114-136 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Tapu Koko Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 90-106 (26.3 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Tapu Koko Parabolic Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 85-102 (24.9 - 29.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Technician Tapu Koko Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 100-118 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO


In this case, Adaptability since Parabolic Charge was "buffed" to BP 65, making it unusable for Technician. Which, arguably, makes it worse for metas like BH. If it was BP 50 like Draining Kiss still is, then Technician. However, yeah... 95 Sp.A is a wee bit too low for a dedicated sweeper in BH.


*Parabolic Charge and Draining Kiss are not in the calculator, so I changed the BP of Thunderbolt and Moonblast in the calculator and then renamed the moves in this post's calcs for clarity's sake.[/quote][/quote]
 
I have another good and pretty underrated set:



Top Kek (Tapu Koko) @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability / Technician (not sure which would do more damage)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Parabolic Charge
- Draining Kiss
- Earth Power

Although Tapu Koko has a pretty bad 95 SpA (compared to, say, POgre), Tail Glow boosts it to become very dangerous and overwhelming. Parabolic Charge and Draining Kiss both get STAB and a boost, mitigating their low base power and helping it stay longer to sweep. Earth Power hits PDon and Steel types. The Focus Sash is to live a hit, though you can use Life Orb to further increase damage outputs.
If you're determined to use Tapu Koko I would suggest a Sheer force set with moonblast/thunderbolt/earthpower or whatever
It hits a lot harder than using draining kiss etc and has the advantage of negating LO damage which helps to bluff choice item or something too I guess
Although I would imagine MMY does more damage in every case and is quicker and bulkier.
 
I have another good and pretty underrated set:



Top Kek (Tapu Koko) @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability / Technician (not sure which would do more damage)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Parabolic Charge
- Draining Kiss
- Earth Power

Although Tapu Koko has a pretty bad 95 SpA (compared to, say, POgre), Tail Glow boosts it to become very dangerous and overwhelming. Parabolic Charge and Draining Kiss both get STAB and a boost, mitigating their low base power and helping it stay longer to sweep. Earth Power hits PDon and Steel types. The Focus Sash is to live a hit, though you can use Life Orb to further increase damage outputs.
I might have one that's better, though... potentially even good, in certain cases!

Tapu Koko @ Focus Sash / Life Orb /White Herb
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Bolt Strike
- Play Rough/Icicle Crash
- Earthquake/coverage of choice

Tapu Koko has a superior Physical Attack stat, and doesn't have to worry about a limited move pool now. As it's fast, a Dazzling set can make Tapu Koko look pretty nice as a Physical clean-up sweeper. Just make sure any abnormally bulky threats are crippled, and you might just have that sweet sweep in sight...
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
I might have one that's better, though... potentially even good, in certain cases!

Tapu Koko @ Focus Sash / Life Orb /White Herb
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Bolt Strike
- Play Rough/Icicle Crash
- Earthquake/coverage of choice

Tapu Koko has a superior Physical Attack stat, and doesn't have to worry about a limited move pool now. As it's fast, a Dazzling set can make Tapu Koko look pretty nice as a Physical clean-up sweeper. Just make sure any abnormally bulky threats are crippled, and you might just have that sweet sweep in sight...
In this case, why not just run Zekrom? With Shell Smash, Zekrom's base speed is sufficient, and the extra bulk and power is useful.

Regardless, I'm pretty sure Tapu Koko is almost completely outclassed in BH.
 
In this case, why not just run Zekrom? With Shell Smash, Zekrom's base speed is sufficient, and the extra bulk and power is useful.

Regardless, I'm pretty sure Tapu Koko is almost completely outclassed in BH.
Tapu Koko is almost certainly outclassed. But it at least is harder to outpace than Zekrom is. That is a singular reason to possibly use it.
 
Chatter got nerfed;

- Gale Wings nerf makes Speed stat alot more important.
- ate nerf reduces its power
- Spectral Punch makes boosting harder
- added electric -ate counters flying types
- Tangled Feet doubles evasion if confused
- 2 viable users; M-Ray and M-Pidgeot.

Its possible still broken but nothing near as much as Gen 6.
 
Chatter got nerfed;

- Gale Wings nerf makes Speed stat alot more important.
- ate nerf reduces its power
- Spectral Punch makes boosting harder
- added electric -ate counters flying types
- Tangled Feet doubles evasion if confused
- 2 viable users; M-Ray and M-Pidgeot.

Its possible still broken but nothing near as much as Gen 6.
Ok I have a lot of problems with your reasoning and chatter just triggers me so here goes:

-Gale Wings nerf makes Speed stat alot more important.

Chatter was never meant to be used for its power, it was used for its confusion chance and it's absurdly RNG-based way to break down walls. You weren't putting chatter on your gale wings ray because you wanted a strong move to kill things with after you boost, oblivion wing does that a million times better especially because of ray's great natural bulk. You use it in conjunction with oblivion wing to hax your way through walls. For example, you switch in your registeel to counter a ray after it had tail glowed. It takes 40% so you are forced to recover or whirlwind. But then the ray just uses chatter and your regi hits itself. Now the next oblivion wing kills and your whole team is swept. Same goes for shedinja, as it wasn't immune to confusion hits. Do you see how ridiculously stupid chatter was?

Let's even take the best case scenario, and your regi doesn't hit itself and successfully recovered/whirlwinded the ray away. But even if you did recover you are still confused and the possibility that the ray breaks through your regi still stands. Let's say you managed to whirlwind out the ray through the confusion. Your regi is now at 40% from +3 chatter and Boomburst and is confused. See what I mean?

Now I know what you might say, "but why not just use earth power? It OHKOs regi at +3" but the thing with chatter is it covers EVERY wall out there. Fur coat chansey? Chatter. Unaware audino? Chatter. Weakened impostors and you have a sash? Just chatter and 1v1 it!

- ate nerf reduces its power

I'm assuming when you are say this you mean as coverage because chatter isn't buffed by ate. Again you aren't using chatter to kill things, you use it to confuse your checks and just hax them down because 50% of the time they can't move.

- Spectral Punch makes boosting harder

You don't need boosts to hax down checks like registeel. For example ray's uninvested boomburst does about 28% to regi. This might not seem like a lot but if you get the chatter confuse, you are racking up 2 boomburst's and one chatter's worth of damage which can easily add up to kill a registeel after a bit of prior damage. BH mons are so strong that in most cases even 1 missed recovery will lose you a mon and chatter lets you accomplish that.

- added electric -ate counters flying types

the only viable galvanize user is zekrom and even then it is extremely uncommon. Xurkitree is too weak physically to be doing much with fake out and extreme speed and too slow to be using Boomburst to threaten out mons like kyogre. Also tapu Koko is weak as shit. And even after that, the arguably most common flying time, rayquaza, is neutral to electric.

0 SpA Galvanize Tapu Koko Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 230-272 (57 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 201-237 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Only an 8% difference even though koko's one is super effective.


- Tangled Feet doubles evasion if confused

"A complete garbage ability that doesn't do anything else besides countering chatter will definitely make chatter a balanced move"

- 2 viable users; M-Ray and M-Pidgeot.

Now this isn't true at all. You can run chatter on whatever sweeper you want. for example mewtwo, kyurem, diancie, groudon, kyogre and whatever else and I guarantee you it still does the same thing. It doesn't matter if it's not a powerful stab that you can spam, the fact that you can confuse your opponent through sub, magic bounce and whatever else except for soundproof makes it a broken move.
 
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Chatter got nerfed;

- Gale Wings nerf makes Speed stat alot more important.
- ate nerf reduces its power
- Spectral Punch makes boosting harder
- added electric -ate counters flying types
- Tangled Feet doubles evasion if confused
- 2 viable users; M-Ray and M-Pidgeot.

Its possible still broken but nothing near as much as Gen 6.
- Run it on Pheromosa, ez
- Chatter is not affected by -ate
- Spectral Thief? Still just use Phero, chatter doesn't care about boosting and still 100% confuses
- Non-flying pokemon and pokemon with dazzle can still use Chatter.
- Tangled Feet
- Chatter doesn't have to be STAB. This isn't STABmons.

Chatter is banned for similar reasons there's a swagger clause in the formal tiers; it's 100% chance to make your opponent's attacks a 50/50 coin flip and inflict damage to them that deals extra damage, passes through Magic Bounce, and has no immunity other than bad abilities.
Why would you even WANT chatter unbanned, anyway? Whether or not it's broken, it's still terribly annoying.
 
Chatter got nerfed;

- Gale Wings nerf makes Speed stat alot more important.
- ate nerf reduces its power
- Spectral Punch makes boosting harder
- added electric -ate counters flying types
- Tangled Feet doubles evasion if confused
- 2 viable users; M-Ray and M-Pidgeot.

Its possible still broken but nothing near as much as Gen 6.
You forgot the biggest nerf: confusion has dropped from 50% chance of hitting yourself in Gen 6 to 33% chance in Gen 7, which means there's a pretty good chance that the target will snap out of its confusion before it ever hits itself. Not saying Chatter should be unbanned, just throwing that out there.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
You forgot the biggest nerf: confusion has dropped from 50% chance of hitting yourself in Gen 6 to 33% chance in Gen 7, which means there's a pretty good chance that the target will snap out of its confusion before it ever hits itself. Not saying Chatter should be unbanned, just throwing that out there.
This rumor was confirmed to be false
 

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