Metagame SM RU - RU Alpha Discussion - Month 2

What are you looking forward to in Sun/Moon?


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EonX

Battle Soul
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Just wanted to follow up a bit from Spirit's post with a couple of other Pokemon / sets I've been having decent success with:



Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 16 HP / 240 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam / Return
- Earthquake / Fire Punch
- Pursuit
- Toxic / Fire Punch

While most people opt for using CurseLax (and for good reason; it's pretty good) I tend to use offensive tank Lax on many of my bulky offense builds as it provides a very reliable answer to Chandelure, which, as Spirit mentioned, is a very lowkey good Pokemon right now. Body Slam kind of has the same function here as it does the Curse set; gives every switch in something to think about in respect to paralysis. Return is an option if the paralysis chance doesn't appeal to you. EQ is for the Rocks and Steels that want to switch into Snorlax and it does a pretty hefty chunk to the physical Fire-types that Snorlax can soft check because of Thick Fat as well as Nidoqueen and Nidoking. Pursuit is the key move as Snorlax is the only Pursuit user that can safely come in on Chandelure and it can also trap stuff like Sash Alakazam, Scarf Gardevoir, and a few others (you need 76 HP EVs to safely trap LO Zam) Toxic gives Snorlax utility against the bulky Water-types that can otherwise switch in at will against Snorlax. Fire Punch is an option over EQ and Toxic if coverage on Grass-types, particularly Celebi, is warranted by the team. Maximum Special Defense EVs are obvious to take on special attackers better while the HP EVs hit the minimum Leftovers number for Snorlax. The rest is thrown into Attack with an Adamant nature to maximize damage output. As previously mentioned, bumping up to 76 HP EVs is certainly an option if LO Zam is troublesome for your team (lets you take Psychic + Focus Blast)


Heat Haze (Chandelure) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 128 HP / 144 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower

While Scarf and Specs are more consistent for Chandelure, Sub + CM can be absolutely amazing with Toxic Spikes support. This Chandelure is more adept at breaking down balance teams that rely on the likes of Milotic and Florges to check special attackers as Toxic Spikes will wear down the former while Chandelure can set up on the latter. Sub and Calm Mind allow Chandelure to set up and shield itself from status moves and Sub is even helpful against more offensive teams as it allows Chandelure to shield itself from a revenge kill attempt. Shadow Ball and Fire Blast are needed STAB options to hit the opposition hard. Flamethrower is usable over Fire Blast if you're concerned about PP and / or accuracy, but the power drop off is pretty severe after a boost or two. The EVs outpace Adamant Lucario so that Chandelure can still easily revenge kill it or check it should it lack Dark coverage while the HP EVs ensure that Florges cannot break Chandelure's Subs before a Calm Mind. Rest is in Special Attack for obvious reasons.
 
Here's a cool Kommo-o set that I highly recommend. I have been using it to ladder and it has been working really well.



Kommo-o @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sky Uppercut
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance
- Poison Jab

Soundproof is really cool to grant it setup opportunities against opposing specs Kommo-o locked into Clanging Scales, as well as shit like specs Swellow and alolan Persian. Running a Z-move is really awesome here as it allows it to OHKO mons like Metagross, Escavalier, Bronzong at +1 after very little chip, and it allows it to serve as a knock off absorber so it can come in on mons like Crawdaunt a lot easier. It really needs an adamant nature as it's really weak without it (an adamant nature allows it to neutrally OHKO most mons on offence particularly, and it needs outrage because dragon claw is weak as shit even at +1).
top 1.PNG
 
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Lord Death Man

i cant read
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I didn't realize Soundproof blocked Clanging Scales - that changes so much about it as an ability (and also makes Clanging Scales a little bit better since it goes through sub) and makes it seem considerably better than I had previously thought, since niche Swellow check <<< Chandelure/Roserade switch in. Seems cool for DD especially since the users of sound-based attacks tend to be choice-locked. Cool set.

- I've been seeing this everywhere and it's very good. AV is actually pretty effective on it given the fact that it can check nearly every special attacker, and of the few it can't KO, it can get a surprise kill with Mirror Coat. It's a Water-type that counters Celebi too, so that's something. The tier is pretty heavy with bulky Waters right now so using this thing as a wallbreaker with Choice Band isn't very smart since no good defensive core will fold to it, and I'm not too sure what else it can do.
I want to add that Band only has very niche utility options over Band Crawdaunt, so I'd recommend against using a set other than AV (Mirror Coat is what makes AV imo) or SubToxic. Annoying mon to face and I'm semi-interested in how it will develop if/when Suicune leaves.

Also, Tornadus is a god.
 
I didn't realize Soundproof blocked Clanging Scales - that changes so much about it as an ability (and also makes Clanging Scales a little bit better since it goes through sub) and makes it seem considerably better than I had previously thought, since niche Swellow check <<< Chandelure/Roserade switch in. Seems cool for DD especially since the users of sound-based attacks tend to be choice-locked. Cool set.
Yea I found that out when I accidentally misclicked and sent my Kommo-o into an opposing specs Kommo-o (it was meant to have bulletproof at the time because I did not see the benefits of soundproof, but I forgot to change it ._.) and discovered that it actually worked out, lol. In any case, even with soundproof, it can still eat a hit from Chandelure and Roserade and OHKO both at +1. Plus, most people do not expect to face a soundproof Kommo-o, and are more likely to click boomburst/clanging scales/etc., giving you setup opportunities.

I'll share a RMT where this Kommo-o is supported when I have the time to make one.
 
Here is my TR team I took to #2 on the ladder (I am Vichka Azarenka). I will post it here as I honestly feel like most people using Trick Room aren't getting the most out of it right now.

Firstly I feel like you have a number of options on Trick Room. I initially tested many options in the make up, but finally settled on this. Even this team can be customised. Especially the Z-move can be moved to any of the Trick Room sweepers.

The Trick Room setters:


Diancie @ Mental Herb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Diamond Storm
- Explosion
- Stealth Rock

Diancie is the SR setter of choice. It is also your quick route to getting Trick Room, virtually always being able to get Trick Room up due to Mental Herb and being naturally bulky. I run Phys Def as I need it cushion blows from Entei, Darmanitan and Honchkrow among other things.


Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Tri Attack
- Thunderbolt
- Recover

Somewhat standard offensive Trick Room Porygon2. This can get a download boost off many things such as Swampert and Donphan and it actually hits pretty hard at +1. All the while it's still very bulky and very hard to OHKO before it gets up a TR.


Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

An absolute staple of Trick Room teams. Many teams just get 6-0'd by Reuniculus as they bring nothing for it. Again it's bulky enough to take hits to get up Trick Room and is very hard to switch into outside a few special walls. It's also important to have fighting resists so you don't just get swept by Scarf Heracross, Mienshao etc.

The sweepers:


Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer
- Aqua Jet

Honestly this thing is just ridiculous. Unless your opponent is packing Chesnaught or Kommo-o they are often just picking sacs to this thing under Trick Room or switching about between dark and water resists. It also has some utility outside of Trick Room with Aqua Jet especially if you get to +2. It's not as frail as Crawdaunt is often perceived to be with max HP too.


Dragalge @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sleep Talk

On this you can vary the item to whatever you like. I like Specs, it hits insanely hard, and once your opponents Steel types are gone you can sweep quite easy late game with Specs Sludge Wave under Trick Room. You can also run Draconium Z though to get a very powerful Dragon attack without lowering your special attack, as Fairy types don't tend to switch in on you anyway. Other options are Poison Plate to help with that late game Sludge Wave sweep without locking you in early game. This also plays quite an important defensive role from stopping you getting swept by things like Heracross and Lucario.


Escavalier @ Buginium Z
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
- Drill Run

This thing is really good imo. Firstly I think it's very important to have a steel type as otherwise strong normal and dragon types would give this team huge problems. Secondly this thing hits hard and is pretty much not OHKO'd by anything in return bar fire attacks. Savage Spin-Out is very useful for a massively powerful hit as you can pretty easily get to +2 under Trick Room and then just net a KO off it. If you choose to run your Z-Move elsewhere you can run Iron Plate to boost Iron Head or Lum Berry as Lum Berry allows you to walk all over defensive water types under Trick Room without fearing them burning you.


Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer
- Aqua Jet

Dragalge @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sleep Talk

Diancie @ Mental Herb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Diamond Storm
- Explosion
- Stealth Rock

Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Tri Attack
- Thunderbolt
- Recover

Escavalier @ Buginium Z
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
- Drill Run
 
I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but... Mienshao needs to go. Scarf can absolutely punch holes with knock off (seriously it's hard to counter knock off spam, look at your teams and see how many pokemon have high defense and resist knock off/don't absolutely need their item)(The best I can see right now is A-persian, who can't do much to mienshao besides parting shot, and even then can easily be killed if he's bluffing a scarf set) or HJK, can easily U-turn out of any unfavorable situation, and can be a pretty easy win condition. It outspeeds a lot of other scarfers that are naturally slow, forcing you to use pokemon that would not usually use scarfs. Ie: swellow, ribombee, noivern, alakazam maybe, and more. Really it's just stuff like Zebstrika, Heliolisk or maybe Jolteon (but I mean who doesn't run LO Jolteon) that will naturally use scarf and have higher base speed.

I may have forgotten some things, as I am currently very tired.
I'll also admit that I am not the best competitive player, I tend to be a bit impulsive in my actions, but even then Mienshao just seems like too much for the tier right now.
 

EonX

Battle Soul
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Just to reaffirm this, alpha only gives us a ladder and a usage banlist. We're still using the ORAS forum to discuss the alpha stages of the SM RU tier. Also keep in mind that quite a few things are going to be leaving us in February as UU has banned at least 12 or 13 mons this month (probs more) These possible departures most notably includes Swampert, Celebi, Slowbro, and Mienshao due to the shifts up there either favoring these Pokemon directly or favoring others that these Pokemon can check (for example, Breloom should be much better now in UU than it was in UU Alpha and Celebi is a tried and true reliable answer to it while it also lost many offensive checks)
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
alpha literally prohibits anything from being banned, so by the tiering policy of smogon we can't ban anything, even if it's broken. we have to wait til we enter beta (march) for tiering council to quickban stuff or hold an early suspect - the former being more likely.
Ok, but there's something that seems to be op/broken at the moment?
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
Ok, but there's something that seems to be op/broken at the moment?
It was already explained before by others, but I'll reiterate: nothing is getting banned in alpha regardless of how broken it is. In beta, which is in march, is when RU will begin removing broken Pokémon from the tier. Hopefully this is clear now, so let's just continue to use this thread to discuss the metagame and not bans.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
It was already explained before by others, but I'll reiterate: nothing is getting banned in alpha regardless of how broken it is. In beta, which is in march, is when RU will begin removing broken Pokémon from the tier. Hopefully this is clear now, so let's just continue to use this thread to discuss the metagame and not bans.
But I don't care about bans, I just want to know what is dominating the tier at the moment...
 
Aw but I love complaining! jk.
Well from my experience, scarfshao shits on almost the entire tier with HJK and knock off alone, throw in U-turn for momentum and a get out of jail free card, throw on whatever coverage you want, and boom!
I've heard people say Zam, never really fought it myself, Lucario is strong, but people give it too much credit, Klefki hazard stack is seeing a lot of use, Sleep in general I've been seeing a lot lately, Togekiss is getting used a lot, and a few more that I'm forgetting. That's (most of) the bigger threats in the tier right now.
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
But I don't care about bans, I just want to know what is dominating the tier at the moment...
In no particular order and in my opinion:

Togekiss - extremely powerful NP user that makes it difficult to run defensive teams due to the limited counter measures against it because of Serene Grace Air Slash. Standard set is NP / Roost / Air Slash / and one of Twave/Heal Bell

Suicune - Another bulky win condition that has a number of variations with its Calm Mind set, always does something each game whether it's walling or checking Pokémon like Entei or sweeping with one of its many CM sets.

Entei - Most known for its CB set that is difficult to beat without running a bulky Water or Defensive Arcanine, which means it matches up pretty well against most offensive teams. Sacred Fire burns are still very effective despite the burn nerf and limit the number of good offensive checks.

Alakazam - can run both LO and Focus Sash, allowing it to work as the fastest wallbreaker in the tier or one of the most reliable revenge killers. It's not as strong as it was initially since AV Metagross, Klefki, and Escavalier are all commonly used and can check it well.

Spikes - the tier's hazard removers aren't nearly as good as the hazard setters, and there isn't a hazard remover that performas universally welll against them like ORAS Flygon, making spikes a particularly notable presence in RU alpha.

Honorable mentions: Celebi, Mega Absol, Mienshao, Haxorus, Drizzle Politoed.

In the future, please articulate yourself more clearly, your post read as something else entirely...
 
I just realized soundproof affects roar as well :O

The opposing Suicune used Roar!
[COMMANDER COCOA's Soundproof!]
It doesn't affect COMMANDER COCOA...

Another reason to run soundproof>bulletproof on Kommo-o.

------


Anyways, here is a collection of offensive, balanced and defensive threats (sets in brackets). I'm only listing the most prominent ones I've noticed so far, and made an effort to not go over previous RU threats; I am focusing on new Pokemon in the tier.

Offensive: Crawdaunt (band, LO+SD, LO lure), Kommo-o (specs, DD), Entei (band), Lucario (SD, special), Metagross (offensive rocks, LO mixed lure), Swellow (specs), Nidoking (breaker), Alakazam (LO 4 attacks, sash), Darmanitan (breaker, scarf), Honchkrow (fly-z, LO 3 attacks). Togekiss (Nasty plot), Aerodactyl (lead), Mega Absol (4 attacks, SD+3 attacks), Flygon (DD), Chandelure (specs, scarf, sub CM), Rotom-H (specs, scarf, offensive pivot), Minior (shell smash), Mienshao (scarf, band, LO 4 attacks), Feraligatr (DD, SD) and Haxorus (DD, SD, band).

Balance: Metagross (spdef with rocks), Togekiss (defog), Crobat (defog; offensive pivot), Doublade (Bulky SD), Golisopod (spikes), Alolan Ninetails (aurora veil), Celebi (offensive pivot), Alolan Persian (Z-parting shot), Politoed (rain setter), Klefki (spikes), Nidoqueen (offensive hazard setter), Donphan (offensive rocks and spinner), Snorlax (curselax, choice band), Whimsicott (encore utility), Roserade (spikes), Goodra (AV), Porygon2 (Z-conversion, offensive trick room), Silvally (parting shot utility) and Reuniclus (trick room, defensive CM).

Defensive: Swampert (defensive rocks setter), Porygon2 (mixed wall), Quagsire (defensive unaware wall), Nidoqueen (mixed defensive hazard setter), Donphan (defensive rocks and spinner), Alomomola (defensive wish), Bronzong (specially defensive), Umbreon (mixed wall; wish passer), Cresselia (CM), Chesnaught (defensive spikes), Arcanine (mixed wall), Suicune (roar-cune, CM+rest talk), Florges (specially defensive wall) and Guzzlord (don't use this please).

------


Sample Team:

Here is a team that I used to ladder to rank 1. There are no sample teams really so I wanted to share something for people to try out :). Lemme know how you enjoy it!! (sorry about the bad nicknames, btw).
(ignore the bad nicknames btw).

<3 (Celebi) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Healing Wish
- Psychic
- Leaf Storm
- U-turn

Check?? lol (Crawdaunt) @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer

Snoop Dogg (Entei) @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Stone Edge
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed

So good (Crobat) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 48 Def / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- U-turn
- Roost

New-meta (Metagross) @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 132 HP / 56 Atk / 184 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake

COMMANDER COCOA (Kommo-o) @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sky Uppercut
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance
- Poison Jab
 
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Pokedots

How should I live to be happy
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I may be wrong on this, but doesn't this mean stuff like the Nidos, Politoed, and Granbull will get Lovely Kiss? There are likely several other GS/RBY relevant exclusive moves as well http://serebii.net
 
Yeah here's a list of important/viable moves that looks like we will be getting with the Pokébank:
* Lovely Kiss Nidoking
* Lovely Kiss Nidoqueen
* Moonlight Nidoqueen
* Lovely Kiss Snorlax
* Lovely Kiss Poliwrath
* Lovely Kiss Politoed
* Lovely Kiss Granbull
* Rapid Spin Golem
* Growth Jolteon (Z-Growth basically gives you a Nasty Plot boost)
* Growth Espeon
* Low Kick Rapidash
* Low Kick Dodrio
* Agility Magneton
* Ancient Power Venusaur (OHKOs Crobat and 2HKOs Golbat after a Z-Celebrate boost and SR, also nails Fire types I guess)
* Petal Dance Golduck (with Z-Grass it becomes a 190 BP Bloom Doom)
* Leech Seed Vileplume
* Swords Dance Seaking (gonna wallbreak some shit in PU)
* Quick Attack Tauros
* Belly Drum Quagsire lol
* Moonlight Sneasel
* Whirlwind Piloswine
* Pursuit Electabuzz

Edit: note that even the Little Cup form of these mons should get these moves.
 
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phantom

Banned deucer.
- RBY transfers are apparently locked to Hidden Abilities, and while I don't expect this to last in RU for too long, or even the next month, it is pretty big. I'd say the one relevant thing from these transfers is Counter + Magic Guard Alakazam, which effectively allows Focus Sash Alakazam to beat nearly every check, main examples being AV Metagross and Escavalier. In addition, it RKs quite a few physical attackers more reliably and under more extreme conditions like Aurora Veil. As if it needed to get any better...
 

Lord Death Man

i cant read
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I've got a few mons I kind of want to talk about because I haven't seen much discussion about them, and I'm interested to hear if other people have used them successfully.

Pretty good mon right now in my opinion, just strongly overshadowed by Celebi. However, I think it has a much easier time fitting Synthesis (or Healing Wish) on an offensive set than Celebi, and Seed Flare lets it just cheese through a lot of would-be checks/counters, while also being ridiculously strong. I really like Dazzling Gleam on this + pairing it with pursuit Metagross, as a lot of teams heavily rely on either Dragons (especially with Guzzlord seeing a weird surge in popularity) or Crobat to check this. Has a lot of cool tech options, such as Leech Seed and Tailwind, that seem usable as well. I really like it.

Early on I think I was pretty vocal about this thing not living up to expectations - not strong enough, not fast enough, stab combo doesn't break anything, etc. However, after some play with it, I've found Poisonium-Z to feel like an incredibly useful option on it, since it gives it much better odds at breaking through dedicated special walls and bulky waters. Interesting mon to use a Z-slot on, I expect it to get substantially better if we lose Swampert as well, because you could probably run sub or something over HP Grass.

Some relatively random, but relevant calcs showing it's power.
+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 451-532 (111.6 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour vs. 188 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 364-430 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Araquanid: 268-316 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 277-327 (106.1 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Diancie: 276-325 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

I literally never seen this and it's amazing. Special is incredible, Physical (itemless) is situational, but surprisingly good since spinning is much harder than defogging. It can even run specs if you're real because flying resists are rare and mostly physically defensive.

Not so much underrated (if you ladder, you've seen a lot of these) as underappreciated, Adamant Donphan is easily the best spinner we have access to, and it's not uncommon for you to need a spinner rather than a defoggers, especially with how easy it is to lay hazards in the current meta. Plus it's hard to reliably spinblock Donphan, especially if they run Knock Off. However, please stop running defensive sets on this, please stop running stealth rocks on this, and please stop running Ice Shard on this.

Specs is miserably outclassed, but I've been using an offensive T-spiker set and have found it fun, though possibly not that great. Dragonium-Z or Iceium-Z seem to be some of it's better options, because a lot of things it sort of checks often run Knock Off. Dragonium-Z especially is cool, letting you fire off a massive Draco Meteor that outdamages Crawdaunt's Hydro Vortex, giving you the capacity to OHKO quite a bit, while making you take less from Knock. Z-Haze lets you full recover once while using Haze, which is important. Main thing I've found interesting about it is that, unlike Kyurem (who is more widely applicable and often better), it has the capacity to make use of free turns no matter what via Toxic Spikes. Unfortunately, the list of things it switches into is pretty low, and it can't touch Klefki without HP Fire/Focus Blast which hurts because then you can't run Haze and Toxic Spikes.

I never saw this, started using it myself, and then started seeing them a lot more often. I found it lackluster and despite how hard of a counter Crobat is, but it's certainly not unusable and I often found it catching people off-guard. Meta is very prio-heavy for it to truly excel, but I think Sub SD functions decently. Really interested in seeing replays where other people use it, because I feel like I'm just not "getting" it and can't figure out what made it BL last gen. It's really really cool with Toxic Spikes, though, since many of it's defensive checks can be worn down.

Explosion Cloyster is really fun to pair with mons that struggle with bulky waters, it's also one of the very few sweepers that can't be stopped by Alakazam, and it doesn't take as much from common prio as other sweepers thanks to a ridiculous base 180 defense. Pairs incredibly well with specs or LO kyurem. I've also seen people talk about spin so I'm interested how that's worked out, since it seems almost passable on paper.
 

Amaroq

Cover me.
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I built another team and laddered some more. I think I went 23-2 and made it to around 1430 with this team before the ladder reset, but I don't remember exactly. I'll share the team and some more observations regarding how specific Pokemon function in the meta.



Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Magnet Rise
- Dazzling Gleam

Kommo-o @ Choice Specs
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clanging Scales
- Focus Blast
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball

Tornadus
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- U-turn

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

I started with Nasty Plot Celebi + Choice Specs Kommo-o, added Nidoqueen and Klefki for a defensive backbone that also provided hazards, threw on Suicune as the obligatory bulky Water-type and as a win condition that could take advantage of the pressure Celebi and Kommo-o could exert upon specially bulky Pokemon, and finished the team with physical Tornadus to punish Defog and provide some fast physical presence. Togekiss is still incredibly annoying, but at least I have something that can OHKO it this time. Fire Blast Nidoqueen lures stuff like Bronzong and Klefki for Celebi and Kommo-o. Feel free to use a different coverage move on Celebi if you choose to use this team.


Tornadus
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- U-turn

I originally threw this on as an afterthought, but it's actually done a lot of work. I didn't think I would like it as much as I did. Most people expect special Tornadus, so this set tends to catch them off guard. Leading with this has been a good way to get rid of Mega Absol early since a lot of people think they can just click Knock Off and win, but I can just Superpower and remove the threat at the cost of around 60% of my health. Knock Off is really useful for wearing down things like Bronzong and Klefki since they usually don't have any way to recover HP outside of passive recovery from Leftovers (or Wish support, but most Wish users provide openings for the rest of my team), which means they can't wall Celebi and Kommo-o effectively anymore. U-turn is cool to grab momentum and bring in other members of my team safely. Acrobatics is surprisingly strong and is good for wearing down opposing Pokemon that don't resist it.


Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Suicune is great in this meta. It has the typing and raw bulk to check so many things, and can also function effectively as a win condition. There's not much to say about this set since it's been great since ADV, but it checks a large portion of the meta while also serving as a proactive win condition. The ability to spread Scald burns is also very useful. Suicune benefits from Spike support because it forces a large number of switches and can rack up additional residual damage with Scald burns. It checks a lot of prominent threats, but it needs partners that can handle Pokemon like Celebi, which can take advantage of Suicune.

Other observations: Nidoqueen is great. It's strong, bulky, and reliable. It has a lot of offensive and support options and can easily be customized to meet its user's needs. Sun teams are very common. Venusaur is strong. I've mostly seen offensive sets so far. Kommo-o has a lot of defensive utility in this meta, especially with Bulletproof.
 

Brambane

protect the wetlands
is a Contributor Alumnus
If you are feeling spicy and want to have some fun on the ladder or in room tours, give this bug a spin



Venomoth @ Poisonium Z
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Sludge Bomb

Put something to sleep, Quiver Dance and then attack with Tinted Lens STABs. The power behind this set is a Z-Stone. Both Poisonium and Buginium are amazing. Just remember that you are using a Venomoth. If Crawdaunt, Entei or Absol even look at you the wrong way, you're dead. Watch out for faster scarfers and weather abusers.

Some Calcs:

+1 252 SpA Venomoth Z-Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 295-348 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Venomoth Z-Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 400-472 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Venomoth Z-Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 502-592 (130.7 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Venomoth Z-Sludge Bomb vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 364-428 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Venomoth Z-Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 362-426 (138.6 - 163.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Venomoth Z-Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 312-370 (102.9 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Venomoth Z-Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 400-472 (107.2 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Venomoth Z-Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 382-450 (99.7 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Venomoth Z-Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 222-260 (79 - 92.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Venomoth Z-Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 282-333 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
Last edited:

The Leprechaun

wear nike not fila
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
After playing this meta a lot I just want to talk about a couple of mons that have stood out to me as excessively powerful and probably broken. There are certainly many others that are probably too much for this tier and as the tier is still in the alpha stage this makes sense.



I know that I'm stating the obvious here but Crawdaunt is completely silly. We all know from last gen that its damage output is crazy, its STAB combo is excellent and its access to aqua jet allows it to take on offensive mons without needing a high speed stat. With swords dance as well, it has the ability to break through almost every wall in the tier easily.

Currently, there are only three mons in the tier that are seen regularly that resist crawdaunt's STABs. These are Toxicroak, Kommo-o and Chesnaught. Out of those 3, only kommo-o and chesnaught can switch in somewhat consistently but I wouldn't even call these mons counters. By virtue of knock off being one of its stabs, Chesnaught's recovery is cut in by half once it comes in and loses its leftovers, thereby making it easier to wear down. After this, all Crawdaunt needs is Chesnaught to be left at half hp for it to break through with a +2 crabhammer.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 183-217 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 169-199 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This means that any stall team is really going to struggle to take crawdaunt on if it fails to get a burn or toxic early on in a match.

As already mentioned though, Crawdaunt can very easily put pressure on offensive and balanced teams with its massive aqua jet. Crawdaunt forces so many switches that a bold player may be able to get swords dances off in many situations. If a player does manage to do this then the only offensive mons that can take priority hit well seem to be kyurem, celebi, toxicroak, kommo-o and a couple of others.
Finally, as Trick room seems to be fairly popular at the moment, crawdaunt definitely seems to be the most threatening mon on those kinds of teams. Its huge power, ability to run adamant and its access to aqua jet make it unbelievably useful to a trick room player and can often sweep through teams easily.
This mon is completely fucked and needs to go as soon as possible in my opinion.

The other mon that I find broken in this meta is slightly unexpected but still crazy is kyurem.



Kyurem @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire / Toxic
- Roost

I've used this set extensively and all I can say is that it's easily one of the most useful mons on any team. The first thing you notice when you look at Kyurem's base stats is its 130/130/95 offensive stats which are obviously excellent. When you consider the fact that it has access to high powered STABs such as ice beam and draco its damage output is clearly amazing. But to me, what makes this mon too good for the tier is its 125/90/90 defensive stats and reliable recovery. Despite being rocks weak, this mon is consistently able to come in, take a hit, deal a lot of damage and recover up. As an offensive mon with this much power, it shouldn't be allowed to tank many of the best offensive mons in the tier.

The other thing which makes kyurem so threatening is its versatility. Sub Toxic, Sub 2 attacks, Choice Scarf and Choice Specs all have their own niche and each can take on the checks to a different set.

As I said, obviously this tier is still in its alpha stages and it's probably too early to be really thinking about what should be banned, especially as there are so many to consider at this stage. These two mons have just really stuck out to me as silly for the tier, the next big one being politoad.
 

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