Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk IV

Someoneelse

Why am I here?
Time to move everything along.

Combinations: Includes Healing + Damaging, Contact + Non-Contact, Poison Sting + Pin Missile, Damaging [Type]-Moves in other type combinations. Moving to Discussion.

Grass Pelt and x1.5 Abilities: Enough support. Moving to Discussion.

Referee White-Listing:
Enough support. Moving to Discussion.

Sky Drop:
Enough support. Moving to Discussion.

Ability Hierarchies:
Needs more likes / discussion before moving onwards.

Fluffy:
Needs more likes / discussion before moving onwards.

Encore:
Needs more likes / discussion before moving onwards.
 
Z-Moves are undeniably underpowered, but we have further impaired their viability by excluding some of the more powerful effects from Z-Status moves. As you shall see, certain Z-moves are inaccurate when compared to their in-game versions. All credit goes to the Battle Mechanics Research thread and the posters therein.

Me First said:
The Pokémon senses the opponents attack and mimics what the opponent opponent would have used at an amplified power. Me First only succeeds against damaging attacks, it cannot mimic non-damaging attacks. The Power and Energy Cost of a selected attack are both amplified. The attack fails if the opponent attacks before the user of Me First. Me First also incurs any after effects the move would have, such as Sluggish from Hyper Beam, or Cooldown from a combo. Z-Move Effect: Raises the user's Speed by two (2) stages, adjusting the natural stage.
Mirror Move said:
The user thinks about an attack used against it by the target within the last three (3) actions and repeats it exactly, duplicating the attack. The target of Mirror Move is based on the move being copied, so if it copies a move aimed at "all opponents," Mirror Move will target all of the user's opponents in addition to the selected Pokemon. Mirror Move can only select attacks that target other Pokemon; it cannot copy weather, field effects, hazards, or self-directed attacks. Mirror Move cannot select Assist, Copycat, Counter, Feint, Focus Punch, Helping Hand, Magic Coat, Me First, Metronome, Mimic, Mirror Coat, Mirror Move, Nature Power, Perish Song, Sketch, Sleep Talk, Snatch, Struggle, Transform, or a Z-Move. Z-Move Effect: Raises the user's Attack by two (2) stages, adjusting the natural stage.
Z-Mirror Move and Z-Me First reflect/use a Z-move with type and power based off of the targeted move.

Destiny Bond said:
The user telepathically joins its soul with the foes for the remainder of the round. During this time period, if the foe Knocks Out the Pokemon, the foe takes 30 Fixed Damage. Chills cannot be performed by Destiny Bond's user for the rest of the round. Z-Move Effect: All opponent's attacks are redirected to the user for the rest of the round until it faints.
Z-Destiny Bond's KO effect applies during the following turn.

I move to instate these moves's in-game Z-Status effects regardless of the results of the discussion being held on Z-Moves as a whole. Furthermore, this change is one of the few Z-Move modifications in circulation that buffs Z-Status moves in addition to or instead of offensive Z-Moves, which would allow us to more accurately gauge the power of the Z-Crystals. Also, when new mechanics are released, we have tried to adhere as closely to in-game precedent and rulings as we can while maintaining the balance of ASB; overlooking such details as I have mentioned seems unusual.

Side note: according to Serebii.net, Conversion has been inaccurately represented for 3.25 years.

Conversion (ASB) said:
The user selects four (4) moves it knows, none of which may share a type with each other or the user. The user's type changes to match one of the selected moves at random. If the user has less than four (4) valid move types to choose from, it must choose as many as possible. Hidden Power is treated as Normal-type. This effect ends if the user switches out. Z-Move Effect: Raises the user's Attack, Defense, Sp. Attack, Sp. Defense, and Speed by one (1) stage, adjusting the natural stage.
Conversion: Gen VI-Gen VII (Serebii) said:
Battle Effect:
The user changes its type to become the same type as the move at the top of the list of moves it knows.
 

Someoneelse

Why am I here?
No objections from me regarding Z-Status moves. I'd be interested to know why Its_A_Random decided to implement these differently to in-game.

With Conversion, I wouldn't mind if it changed type to match one move's type, as long as that move didn't change throughout the battle. That's the most consistent interpretation with in-cartridge as I can see. I do agree with Jayy regarding letting Conversion change its type to multiple different types throughout the battle with unlimited movepool sizes.
 

Toon

NOT A BUNNY!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I would put this in Simple Question, Simple Answer thread, but it's locked fsr

Question: When using Natural Gift+Natural Gift does it uses 2 usage of the berry or 1

I have one reasoning where Same Move combos are technically considered as "Using the same move twice" (correct me if i'm wrong I dont have those logs any more) so yes it should use 2 usages. Another reasoning is that it can be treated like Type Gems where using something like let's say Acrobatics+Acrobatics [Gem] considers the combo as a whole, but only uses one usage of flying gem

Another thing: may I ask the reasoning for (or confirmation for) why Natural Gift Berries and co berries have less usage w/ Natural Gift than type resistance berries like Yache? (If I'm reading correctly The move Natural Gift says may be used 8 times before berry is entirely consumed, but berries like for example: Pomeg Berry can only be used 5 times)

To me even tho im extremely biased rn I dont understand why they're limited like this, sure theyre stronger in BAP but they only have one purpose and that is to be used as Natural Gift.

lol I feel weird talking about a simple rarely used move as this but this post is mainly b/c of my first question
 
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JJayyFeather

Drifting~
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
4 Things:

To Toon's Q1: I posed the idea of the same move twice thing, simply because everything in the description of a combination and its mechanics allude to the idea of 2 as 1, even the base EN calc is done as a 2 as 1 calculation. I'd say it's 2 uses of the 8 uses that Natural Gift yields a move, but anything else the move could trigger (like the +3 BAP from a Natural Gift berry) should only trigger once, since it is indeed one move.

To Toon's Q2: I think it's simply because the Natural Gift berries give an extra boon to the move.

New Question #1: RageCandyBar issues v1. The NDA and Handbook do not agree on where this item is to be activated. NDA says start of action, Handbook says start of turn. Which to follow/adapt to match the other?

New Question #2: RageCandyBar issues v2. This is largely dependent on the last question. If it is decided that RageCandyBar is at the start of the action, is it before or after speed order has been determined? Seems like a recurring question, but it's always answered in backrooms (PMs), or just in irc where there aren't any logs of it, and no one ever puts this in the Handbook. So the purpose of this is to get a definite and documented answer, as to settle all bickering about this. Personally, I'm inclined to think that it should be after speed order is determined, just because I'm used to that being the first thing in every turn/action in Pokemon, but I'm open to either, I just need an answer.
 

Frosty

=_=
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Mega evolving happens before all actions and rcb inside an action. It isnt the same thing at all unless you change it

I mean, on the period mega evolution happened inside an action in asb, it was pretty safe to say that it didnt affect speed order for that action. I see no reason to treat rcb differently. Again: unless you change it.
 
Can we formally decide on tie-breaking rules for IRV voting? It wasn't an issue with the latest vote, but it might pop up again and it'd be nice to know in advance since there are several different ways different places do it.
 

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Edited to clarify (Only new stuff).

ediZt: Apparently it includes old stuff now (see Implementation thread).
 
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ZhengTann

Nargacuga
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Can we formally decide on tie-breaking rules for IRV voting? It wasn't an issue with the latest vote, but it might pop up again and it'd be nice to know in advance since there are several different ways different places do it.
Smogon goes by Wikipedia, so I quote:
Ballots are initially counted for each elector's top choice. If a candidate secures more than half of these votes, that candidate wins. Otherwise, the candidate in last place is eliminated and removed from consideration. The top remaining choices on all the ballots are then counted again. This process repeats until one candidate is the top remaining choice of a majority of the voters.
This means unless one option gets more than 50% of the votes, any option(s) that was (or were tied at) the last place will be eliminated and the vote recounted.
 
Smogon goes by Wikipedia, so I quote:

This means unless one option gets more than 50% of the votes, any option(s) that was (or were tied at) the last place will be eliminated and the vote recounted.
question: do all choices below the eliminated choice in a ballot get moved up?

ediZt: Yes, if the eliminated choice was first preference, then the one below it becomes first, so on, so forth.
 
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JJayyFeather

Drifting~
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Moderator
oh boy here we go...

Parental Bond, Fixed Damage, & Focus Band

So... we never actually codified in ASB what happens when you use a Fixed Damage move with a mon with Parental Bond (so usually M-Kangaskhan), so we've been following the in-game trend of applying the fixed damage twice, unaffected by the multiplier because it's yknow... fixed. However, what is our philosophy for dealing with that when a Focus Band is added to the situation?

Question:
- In the case of a Parental Bond boosted Fixed Damage moves, is Focus Band applied once or twice?
 
oh boy here we go...

Parental Bond, Fixed Damage, & Focus Band

So... we never actually codified in ASB what happens when you use a Fixed Damage move with a mon with Parental Bond (so usually M-Kangaskhan), so we've been following the in-game trend of applying the fixed damage twice, unaffected by the multiplier because it's yknow... fixed. However, what is our philosophy for dealing with that when a Focus Band is added to the situation?

Question:
- In the case of a Parental Bond boosted Fixed Damage moves, is Focus Band applied once or twice?
focus band is an interesting question (which should? be treated as a single move?), while fixed damage is clearly stated. bap is 1.25x. fixed dmg has no bap. nothing else.
 
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If larger formats are causing an issue, just make it so that dodging only works on the next action targeting the user?
 

ZhengTann

Nargacuga
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Hi, I have something to pick over Block. In-ASB it is given an extra effect to deal damage when your opponent uses an evasive tactic. Problem is, Ghost-STAB (also in-ASB) renders it completely useless. We've seen Flame Burst dealing typeless damage before - we even have codified typeless damage as a result of certain combos. So should Block at least get typeless damage in the future, kind of like Pain Split, to have some sort of effect against Ghosts? (I'm fine if the question gets a "no, it should always be Normal" - in any case, we'd be clearing up the whole issue)
 

JJayyFeather

Drifting~
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
I don't think it's about the type of the damage, it's the nature of the move.

The way I see it, a move's primary effect should always be considered before any secondary effects, especially ones that we added to the move. Think of it this way, if the move Fire Blast misses or is absorbed by Flash Fire, it can't possibly burn. Same idea here. Block can't have it's primary purpose against a Ghost type, so its secondary shouldn't be a factor.
 
I don't think it's about the type of the damage, it's the nature of the move.

The way I see it, a move's primary effect should always be considered before any secondary effects, especially ones that we added to the move. Think of it this way, if the move Fire Blast misses or is absorbed by Flash Fire, it can't possibly burn. Same idea here. Block can't have it's primary purpose against a Ghost type, so its secondary shouldn't be a factor.
To flavor it specifically for this scenario, let's say a Snorlax is blocking the road. If a ghost is immune to that blocking (goes through snorlax), then naturally it won't take damage from crashing into the bouncy fat of Snorlax's belly-trampoline.

EDIT: /me drools at the thought of jumping up and down on a huge-ass cute snorlax
 

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