Ubers Arceus-Normal

[shrang]

[OVERVIEW]
* Arceus-Normal is the premier Arceus forme to run on offensive teams. It can also fit on balanced teams with a bulky set.
* There are more threats that stop Extreme Killer Arceus now, most notably Zygarde-C and Choice Scarf Lunala, as well as buffed Speed Mega Gengar.
* The rise in Ghost-types is not a complete loss: while it limits Arceus offensively, it now gives Arceus a very valuable defensive niche.
* Excellent 120 / 120 / 120 bulk and lack of weaknesses mean it can set up easily even without investment, and with investment it can set up multiple times.
* While Arceus lacks weaknesses, it does lack resistances with the exception of its key immunity to Ghost, and it is also susceptible to all forms of entry hazards and status.
* Revenge killing top threats like weakened Geomancy Xerneas is still very useful for offensive teams.
* Arceus can also run a defensive set to check Swords Dance Arceus-Ghost and Lunala for stall.

[SET]
name: Bulky Extreme Killer
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Extreme Speed
move 3: Shadow Claw
move 4: Recover / Earthquake
item: Silk Scarf / Life Orb
ability: Multitype
nature: Adamant
evs: 184 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
* Swords Dance lets Arceus sweep foes that it couldn't sweep without a boost.
* Extreme Speed lets Arceus sweep late-game and allows it to pick off weakened threats such as Xerneas, Mega Salamence, and Deoxys-A. This is useful on more offensive teams that can't afford a dedicated counter to these Pokemon.
* Be very careful not to overestimate unboosted Extreme Speed's power: it only does around 40% to Geomancy Xerneas and Mega Salamence, so weakening them is very important.
* Shadow Claw gives Arceus unresisted coverage, even though it's quite weak, and crucially hits Ghost-types, which are immune to Extreme Speed and what Arceus is mainly defending against.
* Recover lets Arceus be a consistent Ghost-type switch-in, as well as letting it set up on weaker foes.
* Earthquake lets it hit Steel-types like Dialga, Magearna, and Solgaleo much harder than Shadow Claw.

Set Details
========
* With the rise of Ghost-types and Zygarde-C, Arceus finds it even harder to sweep teams offensively.
* As such, Extreme Killer Arceus fits better as a defensive Pokemon with the ability to still clean late-game and revenge kill some problematic threats.
* The EVs let it outspeed neutral-natured Solgaleo and Lunala.
* Silk Scarf lets Arceus have a strong Extreme Speed without compromising bulk, but Life Orb lets it OHKO 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo after Stealth Rock while doing more to Giratina-O (still 2HKOes at +2) and to a rampaging +2 Ghost Arceus (Silk Scarf does 35.60% - 42.41%, and with Life Orb it can deal over 50%).
* Leftovers and Lum Berry are other options, but the power output with these items is disappointing.
* Refresh is also an option in the last slot to deal with Will-O-Wisp Lunala and status in general.

Usage Tips
========
* This Extreme Killer set is quite flexible; just don't ever pull it out and go for a sweep straight away—you'll just end up with a crippled or KOed Arceus.
* Make the best use of Arceus's defenses. Don't let it get KOed if your opponent has threats like Lunala still rampaging around.
* Using Extreme Killer Arceus is quite the art—make sure you have foes weakened first, as well as optimizing conditions in which Arceus sets up (for example, taking away heavy rain if trying to set up on Primal Kyogre). The great thing about this set is that Arceus can sit around and sponge a hit or two and Recover them off before attempting a sweep.

Team Options
========
* You can use this set on a greater variety of teams. It is still effective on hyper offense, but you can expand Extreme Killer Arceus to more balanced teams with this set.
* Primal Groudon works well with everything that's not a joke team. It switches into Will-O-Wisp and Steel-types, sets up Stealth Rock for Arceus, or can just break down walls itself with Swords Dance.
* Yveltal is a great switch-in to Choice Scarf Lunala that also provides Taunt and U-turn for momentum.
* Deoxys-S sets up entry hazards that help Arceus break foes much more easily.
* Dialga is a great alternative for a Stealth Rock setter, beats most Defoggers, and is hard to Magic Bounce against.
* Deoxys-A is a good Pokemon to break down walls, especially when used with Dialga. It also adds a user of priority, which fits really well on hyper offense, and can also Pursuit Mega Gengar if you choose to go down that road.
* Mega Salamence is a strong hyper offense team companion that can break down walls everywhere for Arceus to clean up.
* Xerneas is another strong offensive team companion, and it easily defeats the rare defensive Yveltal.
* Mega Gengar traps a bunch of defensive threats such as Lugia.
* Choice Scarf Lunala is a good all-around revenge killer, especially versus Psychic Terrain teams, which prevent Arceus from using Extreme Speed.
* Calm Mind Primal Kyogre is very strong wallbreaker that can switch into a lot if Extreme Killer Arceus's checks and deal a lot of damage.
* Tyranitar can trap Mega Gengar and Choice Scarf Lunala with Pursuit, although trapping Mega Gengar requires good prediction.

[SET]
name: Offensive Extreme Ekiller
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Extreme Speed
move 3: Earthquake / Shadow Claw
move 4: Ice Beam / Shadow Claw
item: Life Orb
ability: Multitype
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
* Swords Dance lets Arceus set up.
* Extreme Speed lets Arceus sweep late-game while allowing it to pick off weakened threats such as Xerneas, Mega Salamence, and Deoxys-A. This is useful on more offensive teams that can't afford dedicated counters for all of those Pokemon.
* Earthquake and Ice Beam provide the best overall coverage. Ice Beam 2HKOes Zygarde-C, which Arceus otherwise does pretty much nothing to.
* In addition to Zygarde-C, Ice Beam also OHKOes Mega Salamence, as well as doing 34% - 40% to Giratina-O.
* Earthquake hits Steel-types like Solgaleo, Magearna, and Dialga, as well as Primal Groudon. It also lets you heavily pressure Ferrothorn without having to rely on other niche options like Fire Blast.
* Shadow Claw on the other hand lets Arceus take down Lunala and do a lot more damage to Giratina-O, but running it over Earthquake or Ice Beam means you either miss out on Steel-types or Zygarde.
* Magic Coat is an option for hyper offense teams to deter Sticky Web, absolutely messing up that playstyle. It also stops opposing Deoxys-S setting up entry hazards. If you use Magic Coat, Shadow Claw provides the best overall coverage.

Set Details
========
* Offensive Extreme Killer is a bit more limited due to the introduction of Zygarde-C (forcing it to run Ice Beam), Choice Scarf Lunala, buffed Speed Mega Gengar, and Tapu Lele's Psychic spam.
* It is still able to do what Extreme Killer is designed for, which is sweep late-game; you just need to take a few more precautions in dealing with its checks.
* Arceus needs to pick its coverage more carefully, as there are Pokemon (outside of its usual counters like Skarmory) that it can't hit with just three attacks.

Usage Tips
========
* Bring Arceus out late-game when the bulkier foes are gone or severely weakened and you've cleared the field of Psychic Terrain.
* The above point cannot be stressed enough; taking Arceus out early for the sake of sweeping is pointless unless your opponent is so badly prepared for it that it's possible. The only reason you should use this early- or mid-game is to limit suicide lead hazard setup to one layer (or completely if you have Magic Coat) or to pick off threatening sweepers that are weakened.
* Alternatively, you can try to lure foes like Zygarde-C with this.
* Never hesitate to pull it out to revenge kill foes, though.

Team Options
========
* This set is best used on hyper offense.
* Yveltal is a great switch-in to Choice Scarf Lunala that also provides Taunt and U-turn for momentum.
* Primal Groudon switches into Will-O-Wisp and Steel-types, sets up Stealth Rock for Arceus, or can just break down walls itself with Swords Dance.
* Deoxys-S sets up entry hazards that help Arceus break foes much more easily.
* Dialga is a great alternative for a Stealth Rock setter, beats most Defoggers, and is hard to Magic Bounce against.
* Deoxys-A is a good Pokemon to break down walls, especially when used with Dialga. It also adds a user of priority, which fits really well on hyper offense, and can also Pursuit Mega Gengar.
* Mega Salamence is a strong hyper offense team companion that can break down walls everywhere for Arceus to clean up.
* Xerneas is another strong offensive team companion, and it easily defeats the rare defensive Yveltal.
* Mega Gengar traps a bunch of defensive threats like Lugia.
* Choice Scarf Lunala is a good all-around revenge killer, especially versus Psychic Terrain teams, which prevent Arceus from using Extreme Speed.
* Calm Mind Primal Kyogre is very strong wallbreaker that can switch into a lot of Extreme Killer's checks and deal a lot of damage.
* Tyranitar can trap Mega Gengar and Choice Scarf Lunala with Pursuit.

[SET]
name: Wallceus
move 1: Ice Beam
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Will-O-Wisp / Dark Pulse
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
ability: Multitype
nature: Bold
evs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
* Ice Beam lets Arceus hit Mega Salamence, one of the key sweepers that does not mind status that much.
* Toxic lets it stall a bunch of threats, namely Ho-Oh, Primal Groudon and Lunala, as well as stopping the rarer Calm Mind Arceus-Ghost.
* Will-O-Wisp cripples Swords Dance Arceus-Ghost.
* Dark Pulse can be used over Will-O-Wisp so Arceus is not destroyed by Mega Gengar (Perish Song and Taunt variants eat Wallceus for free without it), as well as being a more solid attack versus Lunala.
* Wallceus can still potentially stall out Arceus-Ghost without Will-O-Wisp, as the latter's +2 Brick Break does not 2HKO from full after Leftovers, so Wallceus can potentially Recover stall for a bit or get a free turn or two for Leftovers recovery on Never-Ending Nightmare / Shadow Force switches.
* Recover keeps Arceus healthy.

Set Details
========
* The increase in Ghost-types means a defensive Normal-type is very useful, and Wallceus fully takes advantage of this.
* Leftovers is amazing for a defensive Arceus forme.
* The Speed EVs let it outspeed neutral-natured Yveltal so Arceus can cripple it with Toxic and Recover stall.

Usage Tips
========
* This set is designed to first and foremost counter Swords Dance Ghost Arceus. +2 Never-Ending Nightmare OHKOes a lot of Pokemon, and this set completely ignores it.
* You can also check other Ghost-types like Lunala with this, but this depends on their set.
* While this set is bulky, don't expect it to switch into the really powerful stuff too readily. Attacks like Double-Edge from Salamence do more than it can handle. Wallceus is not a blanket check to all things physical.
* Really take advantage of Leftovers.
* It's pretty simple to use: use Ice Beam for Salamence (although try not to come in on Double-Edge), Will-O-Wisp on other physical attackers not named Primal Groudon or Ho-Oh, and Toxic for the rest.

Team Options
========
* Pursuit is important, although Pursuit trapping Mega Gengar is tricky.
* Alolan Muk is also a good Pursuit user, although Will-O-Wisp is still annoying for it.
* Tyranitar is also a good option, but Mega Gengar can use Will-O-Wisp to cripple Tyranitar or Focus Blast to KO it, and it cannot hold two Berries at once.
* Other usable Pursuit users include Scizor and Aegislash. Both are quite frankly pretty horrible at Pursuit trapping Mega Gengar, however.
* Deoxys-A can also Pursuit Mega Gengar, but it doesn't fit well with the kind of team that Wallceus runs with.
* Primal Groudon's defensive set works wonders versus Geomancy Xerneas and Primal Kyogre, both of which give Wallceus trouble. Primal Groudon can switch into Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire, but not into Brave Bird or Earthquake.
* Zygarde-C is probably the best all-around physical wall to check Ho-Oh and doesn't need to worry about burns due to Rest and Sleep Talk.
* Lugia and Giratina also take on Ho-Oh very well. The former can outspeed and stall out Sacred Fire and Brave Bird, while the latter forces Ho-Oh to Recover or KO itself due to the immense amount of recoil it will take.
* Keeping entry hazards off the field is very important, since Wallceus is a free ticket in for hazard users, as well as for key 2HKOs. Remember Wallceus can Toxic stall Arceus-Ghost if there are no entry hazards on the field. Mega Sableye pairs very well with Wallceus and can form a Normal / Ghost duo that completely shuts down Swords Dance Arceus-Ghost once Never-Ending Nightmare has been used.
* Special walls will be very handy for Wallceus. Palkia is good for Kyogre, while Magearna walls Geomancy Xerneas and Yveltal. Blissey and Chansey wall most special attackers.
* Defog is tricky to fit with Wallceus, since you can't use a support Arceus forme. Giratina is probably the best Defog user to use with Wallceus. Mega Salamence is also a decent Defog user.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
* Normalium Z gives Arceus a one-off strong attack with 160 Base Power in Breakneck Blitz, but you're usually just better off with the more consistent Life Orb or Silk Scarf.
* Stone Edge can be used to hit Mega Salamence, Lugia, and defensive Yveltal. However, Ice Beam already hits Mega Salamence and Shadow Claw hits Lugia, albeit not as hard as Stone Edge.
* Shadow Force OHKOes Giratina-O, but it is a lot harder to use due to its charge time.
* Fire Blast hits Skarmory, Celesteela, and Ferrothorn but nothing else.
* Facade is a strong STAB move if Extreme Killer is hit with status (which is common, as it is one of the best way to check it), but Extreme Killer is hard pressed for slots as is.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Celesteela and Skarmory**: Both of these Steel-types resist Extreme Speed, are immune to Earthquake, and take a pittance from Shadow Claw or Ice Beam. They only fear Fire Blast, which is rare. Celesteela easily shuts Arceus down with Leech Seed and Toxic, while Skarmory can use Toxic and stall out Arceus with Roost.

**Other Physical Walls**: Zygarde can take attacks apart from Ice Beam with ease and force Arceus out with Dragon Tail or even set up Coil against it. Lugia can tank a boosted Shadow Claw and force Arceus out with Whirlwind. If Arceus does not have Earthquake, then Ferrothorn can defeat it with a combination of Leech Seed, Protect, and Gyro Ball. Bronzong can cripple Arceus with Toxic if it lacks Shadow Claw. Mega Scizor and Buzzwole can both take boosted attacks from Arceus and strike back very hard with Superpower or Hammer Arm, respectively.

**Ghost-types**: Fast Ghost-types such as Gengar and Choice Scarf Lunala can revenge kill weakened Arceus with their secondary STAB moves (Sludge Wave or Psyshock, respectively) or Focus Blast. Giratina can easily take a boosted Shadow Claw and burn Arceus with Will-O-Wisp. Giratina-O can tank a boosted Shadow Claw at full health and force Arceus out with Dragon Tail, burn it, or hit it hard with Draco Meteor. Arceus-Ghost can pick off weakened Extreme Killer Arceus with Brick Break or Focus Blast, but it is a rather unreliable check due to needing to win the Speed tie, not to mention that Brick Break is weak and Focus Blast is inaccurate.

**Pokemon With Intimidate**: Mega Salamence and Landorus-T can both cushion a hit from Arceus with Intimidate and finish off weakened ones. Beware, however, that if Arceus is at high health (above 70% for Salamence or above 40% for Landorus-T) or has Recover, then it can easily set up another Swords Dance and defeat them both.

**Choice Scarf Steel-types**: Choice Scarf Dialga and Solgaleo can both pick off weakened Arceus with Draco Meteor and Sunsteel Strike, respectively, as they resist Extreme Speed.

**Support Arceus Formes**: Standard support Arceus-Water, -Ground, and -Dragon can all tank an Extreme Speed and cripple Extreme Killer with Toxic. Support Arceus-Rock needs to win a Speed tie to avoid being OHKOed by Earthquake, but it can burn Extreme Killer with Will-O-Wisp.

**Strong Special Attackers**: Strong special attackers such as Primal Kyogre, Geomancy Xerneas, and Kyurem-W put a lot of pressure on Wallceus which has very little to retaliate with.

**Boosting Physical Attackers**: While Wallceus is a sturdy physical wall, it needs to watch out for Swords Dance Primal Groudon and Mega Lucario, both of which deal more damage than Wallceus can handle.

**Toxic**: Toxic limits Extreme Killer's time to sweep but outright invalidates Wallceus's ability to stall.

 

[Fireburn]

Don't worry about me trashing Ekiller this time, it probably won't actually happen now!

- People are finally recognising what a piss weak mon this is
- In short, Ekiller finally got knocked down a few pegs, but it deserved that all along - it's gone from overrated fuck to decent

 

[Hack]

Skeletons, while not complete analyses, should be characterized by the same quality and objectivity as everything we strive to make public. As these skeletons will likely be stuck around for a while they have to look good and convey relevant information.

Right now there is a blatant cursing (2 times) in the overview and that part in general oozes of subjectivity and the writer's self interest.

Maybe you think the WIP phase turns analyses to your own personal playground, but simply posting this is a waste of resources that could have easily been avoided.

I propose that Nayrz gives a couple of days to remedy this, if no effect = reassignation. This are just my thoughts, I don't lead qc after all so I might have gotten this wrong (maybe this is super hilarious and I'm just boring?)

 

[Nayrz]

When it comes to WIPs I'll let most things (having an overview like that even in WIP stage is only going to ring alarm bells to the eyes of QC however) slide as it is essentially a whiteboard of information until the QC stage, but if I was to see stuff like this in the QC stage where the skeleton showcases elements of heavy bias and/or wrong information "ekiller is bad" kinda stuff then yes I think the fun ends there and reassigning is the option. Skeletons are expected to have correct information as when it comes to function they are simply analyses done in bullet points over full paragraphs. Let's not trash the place.

As for some early comments I'd need to see some proof of Wallceus being effective before it gets anything done - this song and dance is done at the start of every generation or metagame with Arceus-Normal's analysis and its always a 4/10 option that wastes the time of everyone involved.

 

[shrang]

Where in the overview has it even been subjective at all? Like seriously, the new gen has not been kind to Ekiller at all and people ARE recognising that its lack of power in the face of new things like Zygarde-Complete, and are knocking it down a few pegs. I'm not being biased at all here, merely stating the trend and stating that Ekiller's power output isn't that amazing. How is that being biased? Nowhere in the analysis have I said that it's a bad Pokemon - I even said it's decent (see last line of overview)! If you're going to say that "piss weak" is the same as me saying it's a bad, then you're putting words into my mouth. Zygarde-Complete is also "piss weak" yet no-one would equate that as saying it's shit. Maybe the words "finally knocked down a few pegs" might seem like I hate the Pokemon and am finally seeing it fall from grace or whatever, but really in the end, they really don't mean anything. Don't expect me to write "The God of all Pokemon triumphs over its puny creations with its radiant might" or even "Ekiller is a top threat in S/M Ubers" because that's not reflected in the current metagame (that might change, but that's not the current sentiment). I'm probably one of the few people actually advocating this Pokemon at the moment, so I know full well how good or bad or decent this Pokemon is currently. If you want me to take certain words out of the overview like "piss weak" that's fine, you don't need to threaten to re-assign this, but don't expect me to say it's awesome because that's not what's actually happening. Also to be fair I've joked in Ekiller overviews for like the last two gens and the analyses have never turned out to trash the Pokemon one bit - I'm pretty sure if you look at what I joke about Ekiller and how I actually write about or use the Pokemon are two completely different things.

EDIT: Fine, "overrated fuck" is highly subjective I forgot I actually said that lol

As for Wallceus - Hack and dice both have stated that they want the set written for now. To be fair I'm not sure how good it really is, but it's one of those gray areas and even if it doesn't turn out good after testing, it's something that is good to be flagged in the skeleton so we can actually test it properly.

 

[shrang]

Anyway this is ready for QC. Overview has been edited for political correctness.

 

[Hack]

Comments on overview, will edit in stuff in regards to other parts later.

"- People are recognising that Ekiller's power is short of amazing"
I don't and it's hardly the most relevant thing to start the analysis with.

"- Regardless Ekiller is still very much usable in Su/Mo, especially with rise of Ghost-types, allowing Ekiller some defensive niche outside of ES revenge killing for once"

Having a ghost immunity is indeed very relevant, but the sentence is unnecessarily loaded with subjectivity: "still very much useable" isn't exactly how I'd describe its role in the tier, see below, "for once" is fluff which is not describing anything especially.

"- More threats that fuck this up this gen now, most notably Zygarde-Complete and Scarf Lunala, as well as buffed Speed Gengar."
Sure, it has a few new checks. I don't know if you notice how many F-bombs you drop?? Stop doing that, this is your final warning from me.

"- In short, Ekiller got knocked down a few pegs, but it's still a very decent mon"

My personal opinion about the overview: Ekiller is still the premier offensive Arceus - its priority usage is still as relevant as ever to allow offensive checking of Geomancy Xerneas. This needs to be reflected in the overview. Can anyone honestly make a claim that it isn't the best Arceus for offensive teams?

 

[Vengeance417]

Under the Wallceus Team Options section, you were mentioning other Pursuit users besides T-Tar. Deoxys-Attack is probably one of the best Pursuiters vs Mega Gengar, and is much better at doing just that than Scizor and Aegislash.

 

[shrang]

Comments on overview, will edit in stuff in regards to other parts later.

"- People are recognising that Ekiller's power is short of amazing"
I don't and it's hardly the most relevant thing to start the analysis with. - (1)

"- Regardless Ekiller is still very much usable in Su/Mo, especially with rise of Ghost-types, allowing Ekiller some defensive niche outside of ES revenge killing for once"

Having a ghost immunity is indeed very relevant, but the sentence is unnecessarily loaded with subjectivity: "still very much useable" isn't exactly how I'd describe its role in the tier, see below, "for once" is fluff which is not describing anything especially. - (2)

"- More threats that fuck this up this gen now, most notably Zygarde-Complete and Scarf Lunala, as well as buffed Speed Gengar."
Sure, it has a few new checks. I don't know if you notice how many F-bombs you drop?? Stop doing that, this is your final warning from me. - (3)

"- In short, Ekiller got knocked down a few pegs, but it's still a very decent mon"

My personal opinion about the overview: Ekiller is still the premier offensive Arceus - its priority usage is still as relevant as ever to allow offensive checking of Geomancy Xerneas. This needs to be reflected in the overview. Can anyone honestly make a claim that it isn't the best Arceus for offensive teams? - (4)

1) You might not but gauging from the idle talk around the chatrooms this is actually the sentiment. Most of the time when Ekiller is brought up it's to do with how it's not as good as it was before. I know this because I'm the one who usually ends up going "hey guys Ekiller is still good".
2) That's fine I can reword this
3) Are you actually language-policing me here? What are we in, kindergarten? People drop f-bombs on Smogon all the time. There is a grand total of 1 f-word in that overview, 2 if you count "overrated fuck" from the first draft - and you're the one telling me I'm wasting time and resources in your previous post. - EDIT: So apparently these are going on-site, which I didn't realise, so sorry about that, I'll be more careful with language here-on in.
4) Did you just tell me off for being subjective and then just give a personal opinion? I realise that you're the best player in the tier, but that doesn't stop it being subjective. Regardless, the stuff about revenging GeoXern and other Pokemon will be added, but there is definitely competition for Ekiller in offensive teams, namely from Arceus formes that can actually break down defensive walls that Ekiller has (and always had) problems with: stuff like SD Ghost with its Z move that can actually OHKO defensive walls or at least pile on a lot of damage to Zygarde-Complete (and outright KO base form) without having to rely on niche coverage moves.

EDIT: Disregard the above, I didn't realise this was going on-site - skeleton is fixed now

Re: Deo-A as Pursuit user - I left stuff like Deo-A and fast Pursuit users out for a reason Vengeance417, and that's because they don't fit that well with Wallceus. The rest of the Team Options pretty much outline stall teams, or very heavily defensive oriented balance, which Deo-A doesn't do that much for. I'll put a note in there to say that I suppose.

 

[Nayrz]

Alright so I've had a good look over this, and the only thing I can do is reject it. Bearing in mind that Arceus-Normal is still the premier offensive Arceus, this skeleton doesn't live up to the standards I expect to see for it.

The overview tells me nothing, the information and clarity is lacking across the board, and the language both references to its previous generations (a nono in analyses) AND has a negative tone to it. This actually stretches out across the whole skeleton. If it wasn't already clear from previous QC posts, there should be very little in negativity for this mon. It wasn't S rank in every generation for the shits and giggles. It doesn't have competition with Arceus-Ghost/Ground - THEY are the ones to have competition/expectation to be better than Arceus-Normal in their teams.

The sets themselves need work - the first set has no Earthquake mentions at all. Magic Coat somehow made its way into a slash. The spread is suboptimal - Ekiller wants to be faster than everything below base 100. Recover is not the standard thing to run into, yet the skeleton seems to base its information that way. The sets aren't why im rejecting this however, as they can always be improved via QC input, but its the information related to them. It is contradictory in some areas, almost right after a previous statement:

- With the rise of Ghost-types and Zygarde-Complete, Ekiller finds in even harder to trounce through teams than it originally did
- As such, Ekiller fits better these days as a defensive Pokemon with the ability to still do its thing, which is to late game clean and revenge kill some problematic threats

A late game cleaner has trouble breaking teams? I feel this misses the point entirely. Its claimed that Ekiller is good against Ghosts, but the same Ghost types are numbered as threats to Ekiller and the main reason it is "less viable". It just doesn't add up.

There is still cursing in the skeleton despite being told that the skeleton was going to go on site and not the full analysis, and you acknowledged this but didn't edit it. The Wallceus set has more relevant information (and just more in general) than either Ekiller set - how did this manage to happen? Elaboration, good information and clarity is just completely lacking is what I'm feeling here. Team options doesn't mention as much as I'd expect along the lines of HO teammates (Deo-S/Mence) instead it goes into Tapu Fini, a recently rejected Pokemon. Flygon and Mantine have made their way into the skeleton despite neither of them being proven viable (and im very skeptical of them in the first place).

The C&C ordering is random - Zygarde-C gets boned by Ice Beam yet is the first on the list. Scizor is above Giratina-O despite Scizor requiring Superpower to even attempt to check Ekiller, which it very rarely runs. Defensive Yveltal is a lesser choice in SM and its #2. Primal Groudon sees nothing in this list either despite getting good damage on non-EQ sets, or having SD break the Wallceus set.

The tl;dr here is that it would require too much QC input to get this to the right standards. This is likely the reason it has sat around for so long, but the ice needs to be broken. If this gets the substantial rework it needs, then we might be onto something, but for now:

QC Rejected 1/3

 

[shrang]

1) Tone - Like I've mentioned before, I'm reflecting what I see on the ground, and the tone surrounding Ekiller is not as positive as before, and I think it's appropriate that's shown. If the sentiment that it's epic comes back, then I'm be perfectly happy to change it, but to pretend that people aren't taking a step back from it is digging your head in the sand really.
2) Cursing - Hey, I did go back and take it out. If there's still some in there, it's because I missed it. I'll have another look over it and get rid of whatever I find, or you could just point them out to me to make things easier
3) Ekiller being good against Ghosts yet those mons give it problems - actually it makes perfect sense if you go by what the underlying trend is. Offensive Ekiller (imo) less viable this gen (due to the checks that have been introduced, which includes said Ghosts). It's harder to straight up sweep with something like your bog-standard offensive set, but it is far more practical to defend against these using Arceus's typing and going bulky. For example, Scarf Lunala can revenge kill fast Ekiller much more easily than it can the bulky set. It might seem contradictory yes, but the main underlying message is that (imo again) Ekiller is better going a bit more defensive this gen. You'd probably disagree with that, but we can talk about that.
4) Late-game cleaning having trouble breaking teams - well yes, Ekiller needs more things cleared out for it to clean now that it before. You'd used to have to break X and Y for Arceus to sweep. Now you need to add threat Z to the mix - Ekiller has more trouble breaking through things now yet it's still a late-game cleaner. It's not contradictory at all.
5) Issues with first set - Recover wasn't a standard move on Ekiller in ORAS, but I feel it should be now. If you look at what the first set is trying to achieve, then you'd see why it's the primary option. That set is not your previous Ekiller that was pretty much only usable in HO, you can use this set on more BO or maybe even balanced. As for Magic Coat, it might actually belong better on the fast offensive set due to its purpose in deterring Webs (especially with Webs being more viable now), but come on don't pretend it's a peripheral option. It was used in a lot of tourneys and I'm surprised that it never got even a mention in the ORAS analysis even though it was supposed to be in moves/OO. Like you said, this could be discussed because it seems like you (and presumably the rest of QC) have a different opinion on how Ekiller should be used this gen than what I have. To just reject this and not discuss this seems like a wasted opportunity.
EDIT: As for Speed EVs, what's the point of base 100s? Ekiller has no need to outspeed any of those since none of them resist/immune to ES.
6) Tapu Fini: it's not supposed to be there any more, but it only got rejected like 2 days ago and I haven't got around to removing it yet.
7) Less information on standard Ekiller sets than Wallceus - easy explanation for this: Ekiller sets are quite self-explanatory. They are simple to use, you don't need much explanation on how to use it, really. As for Wallceus, it's something I spent much more effort in trying to work because it was something that both Hack and dice at least wanted to look at, so I added as much relevant information to make testing easier. Yes, I'm aware that these are going on-site and most of that information will probably be cut out later, but I'm offering that right now so you can make an informed decision.
8) Flygon/Mantine: I've mentioned before in chat conversations - problem with Wallceus is that Defoggers are hard to use with it because of team constraints (not being able to use Supportceus and preference for Mega Sab takes out Mega Mence) leaving only Giratina-O (and maybe Gira-A). I'm perfectly happy to take these out if you don't mind there only being a single option for Defog on there. I even said "niche options" in there.
9) Checks/counters: I ordered these in the order of them countering Arceus-Normal specifically, which is why you see Mega Scizor ahead of Gira-O. I can change that if you want that the other way.

Look, I'm sensing a lot of hostility between QC and me over this analysis and people are taking this really personally, and I can perfectly understand this because of my screwing around at the start. I have a feeling that this got dragged on so long is not merely due to problems you found in the analysis - those can be discussed and settled, and I'd rather that happened than just re-assigning this and pretending things never happened.

 

[Nayrz]

If my points regarding a lack of information, clarity, and referencing to the past are taken into account and suffiently dealt with, I have no problems taking my rejection back. I would much rather see improvement over an analysis with time put into it having to be re-assigned, however it still needs the work done to get there.

 

[shrang]

Okay, fixed most of the issues raised

I left the Speed EVs on the bulky set for now, I'm really not sure what the point of outspeeding base 100s is. The only relevant base 100 is Palkia, which Ekiller breaks in half, and none of the base 99s (Genesect doesn't count) resist Extreme Speed. The only reason I can think of is that you can switch into Yveltal and Recover spam for a bit while it loses health to Life Orb and you can pick it off with ES, or SD up before it Taunts you? Regardless, you really shouldn't be switching Ekiller into Yveltal anyway.

 

[Fireburn]

QC Rejected 2/3

 

[shrang]

Way to go to crop out the full story and ignore what a weakling it is:

Here's the full thing:

[10:51:54] #shrang: Arceus used Extreme Speed!
[10:51:54] #shrang: The opposing Espeon lost 32% of its health!
[10:51:54] #shrang: Arceus lost some of its HP!
[10:51:54] #shrang: The opposing Espeon used Stored Power!
[10:51:55] #shrang: Arceus lost 91% of its health!
[10:51:56] #shrang: <censored image link>
[10:52:09] #shrang: this is what you get when you're an ekiller fanboy

 

[dice]

approved 1/3

i didnt read previous iterations but i dont understand why everyones so anxty bc this is fine

 

[Nayrz]

alright these improvements are enough to satisfy me - consider the rejection removed and this as

QC 2/3

 

[Fireburn]

Alright here's an actual check:

Magic Coat can potentially be upgraded to a Moves mention on the Jolly set. Reflecting hazards from Deo-S/Shuckle and potential Wisp/Toxic/Roars is still valuable utility for the offensive teams you'd tend to use Magic Coat on. You should also mention that Shadow Claw gives you a better chance of beating Ghostceus in the 1v1. If you opt to use Magic Coat though then Shadow Claw defaults to being the best coverage option so be sure to mention this.

The Set Details for Wallceus feel more appropriate for Usage Tips. You should also mention that without Wisp you are complete setup fodder for Lucario. Earth Power might be a better secondary attack to help deal with this since Toxic + Recover and Leftovers should be sufficient to handle Ghosts.

OO can be slimmed down a lot I think. Normalium Z can be given a more general mention since it still gives a 160 BP attack with ESpeed to help muscle through some bulkier targets, and I'm not sure its worth giving up a moveslot for Giga Impact. I don't think Punishment is worth it. I would get rid of Calm Mind and Trick Room. Shadow Force can be added to OO since at +2 it OHKOes Giratina-O and has sufficient power to muscle through some Steel-types after some chip (Dialga takes about 70ish percent on average, for instance).

You should also take care to make sure everything is in complete sentences before putting this in G/P since otherwise...they will find you.

QC 3/3

 

[shrang]

Should be ready for GP now

 

[sammao]

On C&C section, maybe you can add Support Arceus forms that pack Wil-O-Wisp as check, notably Arceus-Ground, Rock, and interestingly, Wallcues. Also, you can mention that Dialga holding Shuca berry can take an earthquake and chip for like 50% with Draco Meteor. And you should definitely add Arceus-Fighting as a check regardless of how rare it is these day.

 

[shrang]

To be fair, I can't really think of any Supportceuses that actually regularly run WoW any more. CM and support Ghostceus is crap, WoW Groundceus is balance-killer bait (POgre/Ho-oh/Yveltal), Fairyceus doesn't run it, Rockceus and Wallceus are rare af. I've added a line about support Arceus in general and separated Arceus formes into its own section anyway. I've also added Fightceus into that section, but Fightceus is trash af anyway. I've also added a line about Dialga.

 

[CryoGyro]

Hey, with all due respect, this analysis is far from GP-ready. To check it as it is right now would be quite the headache, so there's cleaning up on your part to be done.

• Listing this first because it's most important: proofread using the Spelling and Grammar Standards. Using it, almost all of your "Pokegrammar" mistakes and some of your standard English should be fixed if you're thorough. If you're trying to find info about a certain topic, use the Ctrl + F function to search for it.
• Those bullet points are incorrect. If you check out other analyses, you'll see that they should be asterisks (*).
• Even though we're using bullets, they still need to be complete sentences.
• Complete sentences are for all sections; that Pokemon - description format you've got in Team Options isn't acceptable.
• We don't call sets by slang terms such as "GeoXern", "Ekiller", and "SD Ghosteus" unless they're very well-known like Extreme Killer. In the aforementioned cases, they should be "Geomancy Xerneas", "Extreme Killer", and "Swords Dance Arceus-Ghost". There are other such slang terms present; I'll trust you to identify them.
• The Checks and Counters section is a mess. There are way too many headings because you list every Pokemon that can check or counter Arceus individually. If you look at other analyses, you'll see that individual 'mons are typically grouped under headings such as Bulky Water-types or Special Walls unless a certain Pokemon is so good at checking that it deserves its own paragraph. Sort the Pokemon like this and describe how they beat Arceus in similar ways. Like I said before, look at other analyses to get a feel for how to write it. Also, do not write the sections as if the title were part of the sentence. For example:

** Mega Sableye **: Lives any attack that Arceus throws at it, can shut it down with Will-O-Wisp and heavily damage with Foul Play

should be

** Mega Sableye **: Mega Sableye can take any attack that Arceus throws at it, shut it down with Will-O-Wisp, and heavily damage it with Foul Play.

If you have any questions, you can PM me or any GP member, or ask us on our Discord channel, which you can find a link to in the Grammar-Prose Team Queue. Thank you for reading.

 

[Nayrz]

shrang

note the above post and fix so this can get moving plz

 

[shrang]

Okay, I've editted according to GP policies. Can someone just check whether I'm allowed to format the Checks and Counters section in the way I did before I send this off to GP again please?

 

[Perry]

in the first set, the evs (184 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe) are wrong. It should be either 184 / 252 / 72 or smthing different - you're getting 532 EVs with the former spread, which is ofc illegal.