Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

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Hello, I was curious if anyone else liked using azumarill as a dragon counter in ou. I personally feel he is still more then capable in these things.
Dragons as a whole aren't really that prevalent in the meta. There's Chomp and CharX, but CharX is neutral to Azumarill's STABs and has decent bulk, while Chomp is usually a revenge killer or rocks setting. Plus, CharX is not that common right now. Salamence exists, but as a DD sweeper it's not being chosen over Gyarados much anymore. Having a Poke just for dragons is not really necessary.
 
Dragons as a whole aren't really that prevalent in the meta. There's Chomp and CharX, but CharX is neutral to Azumarill's STABs and has decent bulk, while Chomp is usually a revenge killer or rocks setting. Plus, CharX is not that common right now. Salamence exists, but as a DD sweeper it's not being chosen over Gyarados much anymore. Having a Poke just for dragons is not really necessary.
I do understand that but I use him for more then just dragon slaying his typing allows for countering and honestly with choice band he can usually knock out some of the scarier mons or force a swap since his bulk can protect him from things like gyarados sweeps and even tho dig is gone. He still holds while I use him as a heavy hitter. Also he gets bulldoze which is usefull against CharX.
 
So... Charizard Y. Fire Blast during Drought KOs pretty much every relevant non resist not named Chansey. In addition, it 2HKOs most offensive pokes that resist it, and a Fire Blast, then Solar Beam on a fini switch takes it out. The point is, 159 SpA backed by a 110 BP move, STAB, and Drought boost means Charizard Y hits harder than almost any other Special Attacker in the tier, and this tier isn't very full of fire resists and full of Steels who don't like fire. In addition, it has decent speed and quite good Special Defense. Unfortunately, stealth rock exists, and takes 50% of its health on the switch in, so defog/rapid spin on one if not two pokes on the team is essential. It's electric weakness is quite annoying with Tapu Koko flying around and Thunder Punch on the two most used megas. Finally, CharY takes up your Metagross/Mawile Mega slot.

Is it worth using CharizardY in the current meta? It's an amazing wallbreaker, especially when there's usually only one fire resist on a given team that isn't hit hard by solar beam. But SR is so prevalent, and finding a viable defogger when Fini adds another electric weakness and is getting less and less play is trouble.

Personally, I still use Char Y. With Lando as the predominant lead, it's easy to lead Char Y and pick up an easy KO on Lando's that don't expect Y, or expect you to switch out, or don't think it's an issue. And at that point, you're fighting a 6v5 and your opponent probably doesn't have SR anymore, so CharY can reign freely.
 
The decline in usage of Latios and Tyranitar also help Zard Y a lot. The reason it's especially dangerous right now is that most teams don't switch into it well at all.

Zard Y is walled by Toxapex unfortunately, so this meta trend of high Toxapex usage on non-stall teams is a big issue. Pairing Zard Y with a Pex lure and a reliable hazard remover is absolutely necessary imo.

One can always try Tailwind over Focus Blast since Heatran and Tyranitar are all it really hits, and the latter is uncommon. Tran isn't that hard to lure so it could be worth trying.
 

Leo

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Charizard-Y is on a weird spot tbh. Offense pretty much has no switches besides Scarfchomp (2hkod) and Zygarde (only switches in once) which makes it really easy for it to spam Flamethrower or Fire Blast and blow everything back. Unfortunately, its low Speed makes it really easy to rkill on Offense so it needs good VoltTurn support to get chances to nuke stuff and a solid defensive backbone to take hits aimed at it. Sash Dug is imo almost mandatory when using Zard, as it traps Chansey, Toxapex, Heatran, Ttar, Nihilego etc which otherwise don't let Zard do its job bar Heatran. Otherwise you need something to lure al of these and remove them from the game. Finally you also need a Spinner/Defogger and in this meta you have very few options to choose from. All of this required support combined greatly limits teambuilding with it and makes these builds pretty formulaic which opens some clear weaknesses and makes it hard to use overall. I've had some decent success with a couple of teams but most of them are very shaky builds I'm not very proud of and whenever I try to find some balance when building with it I usually find myself lacking mons due to how restricted those kind of teams are
 
Can we talk about how M-Mawile is still retarded as ever? Maybe that's an overstatment but the only 2 big "nerfs" that it got this gen are: Toxapex, who forces her to run Knock off if she wants to kill it, and the Sucker punch nerf which isn't even that big of a deal (at least I haven't seen any relevant calcs of stuff that she fails to KO with the nerf, if there are please show me), these are really minor and I don't think that they make her any less viable than last gen. It's not like it can win 6-0 against every team alone but is still retardedly resticitng to team building (like aside from the M-Venu + Heatran core, what deals with this 100% of the time?) and needs very little support to function (Dugtrio traps and kill almost all of her counters).

So I say Quick ban, is not worth wasting a month on a suspect imo, if we can get over with this fast then will be able to focus on the other problematic stuff.
 
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INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
I haven't gotten the chance to teambuilding with mega mawile yet but it has so many interesting options to play with like sub passing to dugtrio(or to avoid dugtrio), or Tapu Bulu giving it passive recovery to it bulk letting it focus more on defense EVs to sword dance and I'd think it'd love Chansey or skarmory to switch out to and stack spikes.

Idk I think it'll fit like a glove on stall teams to slowly pick targets to slaughter and I feel magearna would fit better on HO/balance than mawile anyhow given it has the same coverage options but special and volt switch and we all know how they love mega meta/greninja

Besides mega mawile I'd a spooky way to smash in the face of mega sableye/Chansey stall that generally makes stall mimic itself to a degree.

But outside of that I see it running a lot of niche sets or lure options

Have You tryed Tapu lele or that one ghost fire candle pokemon? It can hit past subs and use wisp or set up its own sub if the problem is sucker punch

Also boomerang should really mess it's world up
 
Can confirm that the newly 70 BP Sucker Punch on a 252 atk adamant Mega Mawile is able to do a clean 90% to Mega Metagross.

No one is safe.

I guess it's safe to say that Heatran and Toxapex will be seeing a surge in usage soon.
 
Another interesting pokemon (albeit one that got less interesting with MMawile) is Scarf Nihilego. It revenge kills the shit out of really important stuff, such as Volcarona, CharX/Y, All Tapus, and anything 4x weak to HP Ice. The obvious issue with it is that it has no coverage options for steel types (once again, Earth power would be gorgeous), and its physical defense is shit. Here's a replay of me getting two very important revenge kills with it against a HO team (I mean, I assume since the Heatran had little to no HP investment): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-543995072
 

Lady Alex

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Can we talk about how M-Mawile is still retarded as ever? Maybe that's an overstatment but the only 2 big "nerfs" that it got this gen are: Toxapex, who forces her to run Knock off if she wants to kill it, and the Sucker punch nerf which isn't even that big of a deal (at least I haven't seen any relevant calcs of stuff that she fails to KO with the nerf, if there are please show me), these are really minor and I don't think that they make her any less viable than last gen. It's not like it can win 6-0 against every team alone but is still retardedly resticitng to team building (like aside from the M-Venu + Heatran core, what deals with this 100% of the time?) and needs very little support to function (Dugtrio traps and kill almost all of her counters).

So I say Quick ban, is not worth wasting a month on a suspect imo, if we can get over with this fast then will be able to focus on the other problematic stuff.
No need. Haven't you heard? We're totally down with absurd generational power creeps since the suspect process in OU is hot garbage.
 
Can confirm that the newly 70 BP Sucker Punch on a 252 atk adamant Mega Mawile is able to do a clean 90% to Mega Metagross.

No one is safe.

I guess it's safe to say that Heatran and Toxapex will be seeing a surge in usage soon.
I mean, it's highest ATK in the game using a SE move. Duh?

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tbh, i'm surprised that doesnt straight up kill.
 
I mean, it's highest ATK in the game using a SE move. Duh?

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tbh, i'm surprised that doesnt straight up kill.
Eh, it's not that surprising. Sure, Mega Mawile has the highest Attack stat in the game, but a 70 BP non-STAB move, even if it's super effective, against the 80/150 physical bulk of Mega Metagross is very unlikely to kill.

Jesus Mega Metagross is fat (80/150/110), it's highest base stat isn't its attack, it's physical defense.
 
Eh, it's not that surprising. Sure, Mega Mawile has the highest Attack stat in the game, but a 70 BP non-STAB move, even if it's super effective, against the 80/150 physical bulk of Mega Metagross is very unlikely to kill.

Jesus Mega Metagross is fat (80/150/110), it's highest base stat isn't its attack, it's physical defense.
Yeah... who thought it was a good idea to give those defenses to a poke with 145 Atk and 110 Spe? That's better natural physical bulk than toxapex, geez.
 
Yeah, Mega Meta actually has better physical bulk than Skarm; it goes unnoticed since it never invests in bulk.

To address what others have mentioned, Mawile does learn Ice Punch and Thunder Punch, but not Fire Punch. Fire Fang is used instead. Ice Punch doesn't really merit a move slot since Landorus-T and Garchomp are both hit incredibly hard by Play Rough.

As for Mega Meta living Sucker, it somewhat makes life harder for Mega Mawile but honestly it's not that easy for Meta to check it. Metagross always gets tossed around in early-mid game and generally takes some sort of damage, be it from Hazards, VoltTurn, Nature's Madness, and whatever other weak neutral hits are around. This adds up after a while, and by the late game it's unlikely that Meta will be above 80%, making Mawile very dangerous.
 
+2 Knock also 2HKOs even if Toxapex gets the Haze off after.
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 215-254 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

I'd say that if you're worried about Toxapex that much just use Thunder Punch, plus it's decent coverage for stuff like Skarmory.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 223-264 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Zap does a little over 30% with volt switch and can somewhat PP stall out sucker punch with roost and volt turn into something that can eat the punches and if You break the sub while they are using focus punch it's now completely free to switch into something that can handle that move

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pheromosa: 153-180 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

224+ SpA Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile-Mega: 154-182 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While it doesn't take it very well I'm sure mawile will slowly invest more into bulk than attack and buzzwole can shake off anything besides play rough and deal 60% back with e quake

Lando can really handle everything it does outside of having a sword dances off or an ice punch and do 80% back with earthquake without being trapped by dugtrio/magetzone/pursuit.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 148-175 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO



Idk I think passive chip momentum control and it being forced to run sucker punch+ 1 non attack move(if it really wants 1 hit kills or wants to avoid 2 hit kills) really should keep it in place to a degree but I could see it smashing holes with one coverage move and having another mon spamming the same type to smash through important cores leaving the rest of the match to be a clean sweep
 

Gary

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I played a little bit yesterday and so far I've been mostly impressed with the all out attacker set, which consists of Play Rough / Fire Fang / ThunderPunch / Sucker Punch. IMO this is the best AOA it can run because outside of Heatran you destroy a lot of common defensive builds, while still maintaining the ability to hit offensive mons with Sucker Punch late game without relying so much on SD to break through Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Pex, and Mega Scizor. Focus Punch is also an option over Fire Fang, as you gain the ability to pop Heatran on the switch while still smacking Ferrothorn but you have a much harder time vs Mega Scizor which I don't really appreciate. Personally I feel like Sub Punch is really sub optimal in the current meta because it forces you to forgo valuable coverage, and it's not like Focus is unviable without Sub anyway, Breloom always ran Focus without Sub throughout BW and some of XY, you just have to play smart.

SD sets are really effective late game but early game especially versus bulkier builds I always feel like Mawile has a harder time breaking without coverage, and vs offense it's pressured to set up. The most optimal SD set atm appears to be SD / Play Rough / Knock Off / Sucker Punch, as it gives Mawile the ability to bust through most Steels at +2 bar Mega Scizor as well as Toxapex and Amoonguss. Iron Head is useless STAB and I only see it being used to OHKO Mega Venu at +2 which already struggles to play around +2 Sucker anyway, and opposing Mawile are practically OHKOed by +2 Play Rough.

Overall, I've actually had a bit of issue finding the right build to fit Mawile on, but I think it will be easier as the meta progresses. Mega Meta and Mega Scizor are still very valuable Megas that offer more defensive utility for teams, because Mawile is surprisingly less bulky than you'd expect, and offensive builds appreciate having something like Mega Meta which can switch into Tapu Lele better, while fatter builds obviously appreciate Mega Scizor more than any other mega. Both sets really like more offensive builds to pressure Pokemon into Sucker Punch range, especially with hazards specifically, but because of Mawile's really subpar Speed and over reliance on Sucker Punch vs offensive teams, it can be really easy to pressure without set up and potentially lose you valuable momentum, so maybe it will find itself on bulkier builds the more time goes on. Regardless, I think Mawile is a very potent Pokemon with a lot of potential as a wallbreaker and a late game cleaner.
 
Is Brick Break a viable option on Mega Mawile?

I mean of course you lost the sheer power of Focus Punch but it sure is a hell lot more reliable if you're running Focus Punch without Substitute. I rather get chip damage off of a wrong prediction rather than be completely useless for a turn.

Focus Punch's main use is to kill Heatran in one hit but it's a risky play that could go wrong very badly or you have to give up an important coverage slot or SD slot for substitute to be on the safer side.

Brick Break basically neuters Heatran by taking a lot more than half its health away and to the point where Heatran is basically useless and can't come in on anything that hits it with neutral damage.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 294-348 (91 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 294-348 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Both the offensive and defensive variants are heavily damaged and are taken out by Sucker Punch anyway. With some Stealth Rocks up and some chip damage done they are taken out in one hit.

Focus Punch is either a risky play or take another move slot up. Is its extreme power so good that it makes the reliable Brick Break not viable in comparison?
 

Colonel M

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First up let's discuss my favorite Mega Mawile set.



Mega Mawile seems to be doing alright in SM. Its raw power is definitely carrying it places, and Swords Dance is still as terrifying to switch-in as ever. The nerf to Sucker Punch and Psychic Terrain being a potential factor does harm Mega Mawile a bit, but it's still a pretty powerful Pokemon that I think will be used effectively once more people have used it more and the meta progresses. Let's talk about my favorite set:

Mawile-Mega @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
- Play Rough
- Sucker Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Focus Punch / Fire Fang

This is one of my more favorite All-Out Attacking variants of Mega Mawile at the moment. Mega Mawile often forces switches, so Focus Punch can be free game to catch anything like Heatran and Ferrothorn on the switch. It also does a significant amount of damage to Skarmory - if you're slower Roost Skarmory will be in huge trouble and Counter is the best move to fight back against you - which still means you'll get a lot of damage in. Thunder Punch is your best move against Toxapex and Celesteela while being an alternative way to beat Skarmory up if you're faster. Fire Fang (and Iron Head) are still acceptable moves on All-Out Attacker as well.

I recommend pairing with Koko; especially if you use Thunder Punch / Fire Fang as Thunder Punch will still do a fuckton to Heatran under Electric Terrain circumstances.
Is Brick Break a viable option on Mega Mawile?

I mean of course you lost the sheer power of Focus Punch but it sure is a hell lot more reliable if you're running Focus Punch without Substitute. I rather get chip damage off of a wrong prediction rather than be completely useless for a turn.

Focus Punch's main use is to kill Heatran in one hit but it's a risky play that could go wrong very badly or you have to give up an important coverage slot or SD slot for substitute to be on the safer side.

Brick Break basically neuters Heatran by taking a lot more than half its health away and to the point where Heatran is basically useless and can't come in on anything that hits it with neutral damage.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 294-348 (91 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 294-348 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Both the offensive and defensive variants are heavily damaged and are taken out by Sucker Punch anyway. With some Stealth Rocks up and some chip damage done they are taken out in one hit.

Focus Punch is either a risky play or take another move slot up. Is its extreme power so good that it makes the reliable Brick Break not viable in comparison?
Focus Punch in general makes you a lot harder to switch into and it puts Skarmory into really bad spots:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 175-207 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory while Roosting: 350-414 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It also helps against scenarios where you're missing Iron Head and need to do significant damage to Mega Mawile (assume already Mega Evolved) and Magearna:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 274-323 (91 - 107.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 137-162 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 255-300 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 128-151 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Obviously the very latter scenario could have Intimidate as a factor, but it just helps demonstrate that you're still hard to switch into.

Focus Punch has its cons, but the problem is simply Brick Break is too weak and doesn't really punish any switch-ins as significantly as you want it to. Brick Break for example 2HKOes Ferrothorn, so that's 2 rolls of Iron Barbs (+ potential Rocky Helmet) against your Mega Mawile. Focus Punch also means you don't have to beat Skarmory on Roosting, so you can afford to be bulkier to help take neutral hits easier as well.
 
So this is gonna be brief because I'm in a rush, but I just wanted to quickly talk about Beedrill. I've been having a lot of fun using it on a Volt-Turn team; it hits pretty hard, and definitely appreciates the fourth moveslot now. It's nice not having to forfeit momentum wasting a turn on Protect. I drunkenly built this team and laddered really briefly, so the replays aren't high ladder, but they're all good games so I think they're worth posting. Considering running Tectonic Rage Duggy because it takes care of Toxapex, which is otherwise a huge nuisance and also on every freaking team.

Anyways, two replays with a Bee squad:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-544497314
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-544492269
 
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