Fardin decided he could take me on without showing any of the calcs. I'd like them shown to know what you're talking about. Running return is just a waste over Dnite's E Speed, as it's better as priority and can come in late and clean. Terrakion with Pinsirite is flying type, so none of your EQ's are hitting him in flight. I get you like to call us all pathetic little kids but I'd like to see the facts before you get up in my bizz.
While Fardin can be arrogant he does give good points.
Fardin said:
Pdon is usually one of the mons it could potentially set up on, assuming that multiscale is still on. It isn't even a switch-in to it, cause dnite will be at +1 by the time it comes in and can either set up again than evolve to ohko with eq, or attack with multiscale on, than evolve next turn and eq again....
Only time Pdon could handle dnite is when it's at full health and multiscale is off...but let's be honest Lol..many pokes could do that
Lets say Pdons switches in on Dragonite as it ddances, next turn Dragonite eqs in regular form.
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 242-286 (60 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yes Pdon lives but what does it do back?
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 125-148 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
All that you have done is broken multiscale while losing your Primal Groudon while Dragonite is still alive and at +1 and that's if edge hits. The only other options that Pdon has is to either burn with Lava Plume which is only a 30% chance or Roar Dragonite out which only delays Dragonite due to its multiscale still being intact. In the end unless you have rocks up Pdon can't do much to Dragonite, and don't complain about no rocks because without multiscale a lot of other mons can be a pain to Dragonite too, multiscale is the main selling point of Dragonite.
Another thing to keep in mind during all of this is that the majority of Pdons are S.def support sets that dont run edge so you cant even kill Dragonite, only phaze or break multiscale while taking a ton from eq opening up the door to other sweepers such as Geoxern.
Fardin said:
Also about zapdos...it has to be close to full health for it to take a +1 sedge from dnite and If it lacks hp ice, it could easily set up again for the ohko, so even that struggles with it...
+1 252+ Atk Pinsirite Dragonite Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaurite Zapdos: 264-312 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That is a very shaky check to Dragonite if Dnite is running edge-quake coverage, which in my opinion is the best coverage it has. Even if edge does miss or rocks arent up or you live the edge...
0 SpA Venusaurite Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsirite Dragonite: 208-248 (64.3 - 76.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It doesn't even kill and has only a very small chance to kill with rocks up. All Dragonite needs is rocks or maybe a small amount of damage to start and then boom, your Dragonite check is gone. The only other thing Zapdos can do to Dragonite is poison it with toxic which does put it on a timer but even then you have to sack half your team before it dies.
Also slowbronite removes one of the Zapdos' most important strengths in thick fat, which while it does give it more defense...
+1 252+ Atk Pinsirite Dragonite Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbronite Zapdos: 226-266 (58.8 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You still are 2hkod by edge while not even ohkoing back...
0 SpA Slowbronite Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 220-260 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You also lose out on being a good pdon check by running slowbronite which is one of the better selling points of Zapdos.
0 SpA Groudon-Primal Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 202-238 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Fardin said:
Also about all the weavile posts....that poke is able to even check regigias and kyruem, 2 previously banned pokes. Everything has an offensive counter, but it can still be broken
Yeah weavile can control Dragonite's damage but you cant switch it in unless something else on your team has already died. Beyond that if dragonite has setup and has multiscale still up...
252 Atk Refrigerate Weavile Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 192-228 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You still have a +1 Dragonite on your hands and you have been forced to switch your weavile out unless you want it to die to espeed. Along with all of that Weavile is weak to rocks so its switchins can be limited. Weavile is an offensive
check to Dragonite, but it definitely is not a
counter.
Fardin said:
Terrak does literally nothing to nite. It can set up on it 1v1 and ohko it with eq the next turn..same goes for koko and many other shit offensive counters that most mentioned
252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 272-320 (84.2 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dragonite lives, dds, and ohkos back.
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 169-201 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pinsirite Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 198-234 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pinsirite is bad. If you even want to get off that much damage you have to mega evolve which removes the eq dodge out of the equation. If you refrain from mega evolving then your opponent might be able to predict the pinsirite mega evolution which then brings it down to a prediction over whether or not you will mega evolve. Even then the Dragonite user might just opt to espeed for damage because normally espeed would do this much.
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 334-394 (103.4 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucarionite Terrakion: 288-339 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
But even if you make the right play you might just end up taking nearly half of your health while giving yourself a sr weakness.
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 141-166 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
One thing to remember along with all of this, Pinsirite Terrak is bad and incredibly inferior to Lucarionite. If you really want to have a pinsirite user like Terrak then you are better off with Lucario or Cobalion. The former having Espeed and the latter having a better defensive typing which allows it to setup easier and a higher speed tier over Lucario.
Tapu Koko isn't even guaranteed to ohko
mega evolved Dragonite with dazzling gleam
252 SpA Adaptability Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsirite Dragonite: 284-336 (87.9 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
That's megad Dragonite. Which means Dragonite has a chance to setup on it, definitely if koko is absolite, and most most definitely if Dragonite has multiscale.
While Tapu Fini can take hits better it isn't in that much better of a situation than Koko.
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Tapu Fini: 154-183 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
That is a good chunk of damage on a mon with no recovery, also...
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsirite Dragonite: 198-234 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Moonblast doesnt even kill after rocks, thus meaning that your Fini can die especially if rocks are up from 2 +1 espeeds, even if it does live it will be at very low health and will be unable to take any more hits from there due to its lack of recovery beyond rest.
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 183-216 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
???
0 Atk Blue Orb Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsirite Dragonite: 195-231 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
??????
Blissey is forced to toxic Dragonite but in the meantime Dragonite is getting another ddance or two...
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey: 303-357 (42.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey: 403-475 (56.4 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey: 502-592 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Slowbronite takes the hits better but allows you to be crippled by the likes of taunt and toxic.
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbronite Blissey: 255-301 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbronite Blissey: 340-402 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO
+3 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbronite Blissey: 424-501 (59.3 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Once again Blissey can't kill Dragonite immediately so there will be a couple turns for ddances, which potentially could lead to your Blissey dying.
VirginiaEscavalier said:
Running return is just a waste over Dnite's E Speed, as it's better as priority and can come in late and clean.
Return is a very viable option, while without espeed you don't have priority you instead get a nice power boost that can muscle through some of Dragonite's checks easier. Return doesn't even have to be put over espeed, it could replace edge if you didn't like missing.
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey: 384-453 (53.7 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
After just 1 ddance you are 2hkoing Blissey, thus ensuring that it cant stall out toxic turns unless it has protect.
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 324-382 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 433-510 (60.6 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 540-636 (75.6 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With Return Blissey isn't looking nearly that solid of a check to Dragonite.
Another check that you didn't mention to Dragonite was Arceus-Water which is what I was running as a Dnite check before the suspect.
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Water: 196-232 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO
While yes it takes the espeed very well...
0 SpA Arceus-Water Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsirite Dragonite: 260-308 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It doesn't even ohko back with ice beam, thus giving Dragonite a chance to ddance again on a recover or just do more damage. But if rocks are up, well...
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Water: 196-232 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
But once again, Return can muscle past it without rocks just as it would for Tapu Fini. Honestly Fini is subpar in comparison to Waterceus with its only niche over it being fairy typing and magic bounce while losing out on speed and recovery.
All of the things I talked about in this post show how unreasonably difficult it is to stop Dragonite from sweeping and how incredibly easy it is for Dragonite to setup and sweep the whole meta and why it should definitely be banned from holding a mega stone.
VirginiaEscavalier said:
I'd like to see the facts before you get up in my bizz.
There they are.
*Edit. Waterceus is forced to run Ice beam in order to stop Dnite effectively which forces it to drop either judgment or toxic assuming you are keeping recover and defog. Either way still limiting and I think I made my point anyways.
