Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Beauty and the Boost - Pheromosa is now banned

[Marzbar]

It's not that we want a predictable game, it's that the game is dependent on predictions, and when you have a mon that can run so many viable sets to so great an effect, you're essentially tossing a dice as to which set its running, and in the high chance you get the roll wrong, you're either sacking or significantly weakening a mon, just because you had to make a completely uneducated guess as to which set Phero was running. There's no real skill in that, it's just chance. We want to advocate skill here, not baseless guessing.

As Night Train Lane said above, sacking mons just to scout for sets is why Genesect and Gren (back in the ORAS day) were banned. This shouldn't be any different.

But you should also appreciate the skill it takes to run different Pheromosa sets effectively. The first person who ran Fightinium Z Focus Blast or Normalium Z Hyper Beam sets should get some credit for actually thinking outside the box and coming up with viable sets for Pheromosa.

Instead you're just saying that people running Pheromosa aren't displaying any skill and they just win if the opponent guesses incorrectly. That's not true at all. I would argue running Pheromosa properly actually requires a lot of skill.

Pokemon is full of chance. Smogon can't ban all chance from the game. I'm sorry to tell you that.

(again, not saying Pheromosa isn't banworthy)

 

[Jojobobo]

But you should also appreciate the skill it takes to run different Pheromosa sets effectively. The first person who ran Fightinium Z Focus Blast or Normalium Z Hyper Beam sets should get some credit for actually thinking outside the box and coming up with viable sets for Pheromosa.

Instead you're just saying that people running Pheromosa aren't displaying any skill and they just win if the opponent guesses incorrectly. That's not true at all. I would argue running Pheromosa properly actually requires a lot of skill.

Pokemon is full of chance. Smogon can't ban all chance from the game. I'm sorry to tell you that.

(again, not saying Pheromosa isn't banworthy)

It takes no skill or knowledge to put a Z move on a extremely strong pokemon, once the precedent was set really early with things like the Firium-Z Volcarona set I really wouldn't call slapping a Z move here or there skillful out-the-box thinking. You're also confusing having decent knowledge to create a powerful set with the actual skill required to play the set - though good meta-game knowledge is required to make a good unique set you don't really need to be a skilled player to use the same powerful set.

As Pheromosa will always have the threat of a strong U-turn until you scout the set, the skill to run Quiver Dance sets and the like becomes less because it's all the easier to buck the trend and run setup because of your opponent's fear of the U-turn set. This increases Pheromosa's variability in what it runs and makes it limiting to prepare for as it pays to cover as many sets as possible in a single mon like Toxapex.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

I would have gone with "Moon River*" personally, but this works too. I'll elaborate more on the Bayonetta analogy in a bit, but for now - onto Pheromosa directly.

Pheromosa is, in all honestly, a mon that should have been banned a LONG time ago. Between it's high offenses; a stupid ability in Beast Boost; and a top speed among some of the highest in OU history - it's safe, if not common sense, to realize how little place it has in the vision of a healthy OU metagame. There are also a multitude of features and factors that have slotted perfectly into place for this beautiful bitch to terrorize with, and I will be happy to explain them.

To Start, we have it's 137/137 offenses - and a blistering 151 speed stat to work with. In spite of it's movepool being ultimately limited in isolation, it has more than enough options to mixup with and (oh hey, who here remembers Genesect?) has access to Uturn in a pickle. As has been said multiple times - this puts many a constraint on teambuilding, as one would-be wrong move allows it to exercise a snowballing ability the likes of which is rare to see even WITH competent play here in the OU tier. This is ultimately down to Beast Boost, which gives her a Moxie boost in one of her 3 highest stats just for a player experimenting with natures and EVs more then one normally would. Whilst experimentation would be healthy for OU and the game we play in general, we still have 5 others to experiment this with - and with the lock Mosa' currently has the OU tier in... yeah, it would be defiantly be a breath of fresh air to let others see the spotlight.

With that, Z-moves (and their behavior as surprise nukes) have also come at the perfect time for Pheromosa. Having that ability to OHKO neutral threats like Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor, a thus removing likely glue from an opponent early in, is a feat other offensive Pokemon in OU could merely dream of. Calcs:

• 224+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 321-378 (106.6 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 224+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Scizor-Mega: 306-361 (89.2 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Keep in mind: this is coming from only 224 Sp.Atk investment (Modest nature), and already she's snagged herself a free kill right out the gate. Calcs like these have of course lead to the rise in Toxapex offence, and IMO it doesn't take an IQ higher then Dr. Pootis Spencer to realise that it's a bad idea a symptom of meta centralisation. I do think that Z-Recharge is a bit of a gimmick, but that's just me...

One looking at it's stat structure at face value will likely recognize how frail Pheromosa is alongside it's offenses, and may draw the comparison to the likes of Deo-N. While that analogy holds some water, it's worth noting how Deo-N has more coverage and slightly higher offences, but it's best options (Psycho Boost / Superpower) have it lose some of that power as it tries to sweep. Mosa, on the other hand is rewarded for each kill - and will garuntee itself at least one of those kills vs unprepared teams that try to decipher it's set. Besides, you think being that frail is a downside? Whoopie, you essentially don't have to deal with a weakness spread!

Now some may say that it fails to kill a few things due to it's lack of coverage, and due to the power creep, 137/137 offences should surprise no one. In a way, they're not wrong, and even I realise that Pheromosa is far from your traditional 'stick it in 2nd and kill' sweeper. However, the nature of the UBs basically allow builds made for sweeping to be win conditions without needing a turn to setup. We've seen this with Kartana and Scarf Nihilego, and alas, many of the Mosa sets built through the metas' development make better examples of this then those two combined. Speaking of meta development...

The comparison between Peromosa and Bayonetta

As you can see, I have made a reference to Bayonetta at the beginning of this thread. As a Sm4sh player - I can safely draw the comparison between Pheromosa in Gen 7 OU, and the 'broken' Bayonetta from her DLC debut. I know a lot of this may sound tangential and I apologise for that, but I feel like getting perspective like this off my chest is a good way to go. See, upon her release: many players toyed around with Bayonetta and her kit for a few days, and there were many... less experienced players, shall we say... immediately screaming for a nerf. Sound familiar? People saw Pheromosas' stat structure through the datamine, drew a swift conclusion and bitched for a ban. Once the metagame settled down and other bans were put in place, people learned that Pheromosa as they knew it wasn't as great as they'd first thought. I believe this point is reflective of the 1.1.6 Bayonetta nerfs, and for a while was no longer considered the monsterous top-tier threat of release. This was all until many of her high level players (Saj, jk, Salem, Pink Fresh etc.) began to develop her metagame properly, finding out that she had far more useable tools than the small handful of combo starters that pre-patch Bayonetta needed to win (also, Witch Time). Similarly, people using Pheromosa on their teams had started to fine tune the Specs an QD sets which are factors in to the suspect happening at this very moment.

Now... what am I trying to get at with this? Well... for the minority of you that are anti-ban, keep in mind that tiers and mentalities towards something are never static. I'm aware that Smash and Pokemon are ultimately of two different dynamics, but I thought it would be good food for thought to share with you all.

With all that said: this bitch needs to go. BAN

Besides, something to keep in mind is that this is all BEFORE the youngest generation gets access to tutors... do we want this thing to stick around, only to find out that it'll end up getting access to a crap load of coverage through tutors (See Greninja)? Best not IMO... but I'm getting ahead of myself...

 

[Marzbar]

My point is that Pheromosa needs to be banned because of the combination of its stats, movepool and ability.

NOT because it's "versatile" or "unpredictable."

Starmie can run bulky defensive sets or pure offensive sets, be a spinner or a cleaner, run bolt beam or just its stab attacks, have natural cure or analytic ability, hold leftovers, life orb or focus sash, or even set up gravity. It's versatile and unpredictable. But it's not ban worthy.

Ban Pheromosa but for the right reasons. Not because people predict it wrong and get butthurt.

 

[Niadev]

I honestly don't need to say this because I seriously doubt anybody thinks this thing isn't broken but why not (EDIT: Apparently there's one person who doesn't think it's broken :/)

Pheromosa has perhaps the biggest effect on the tier right now. Reliable checks to it are far and few between (if you rely solely on scarfers to check it, you're bad), and it has a notable effect on some Pokemon's viability - For example, Mega Alakazam is significantly worse because it no longer outspeeds the entire tier - Pheromosa can just come in and take it's sorry behind to the dump, via the Bug Buzz/U-turn delivery service. You might as well use Base Gyara over Mega Gyara because Pheromosa outspeeds it at +1 with Naive or a scarf. Mega Beedrill would be shit even if mosa wasn't in the tier so I won't touch on that. It's easily the best spinner in the game, pushing the already very mediocre Starmie to unviability. And the amount of sets it has? oml. Physical Scarf, Special Scarf, Specs, QD Fightium, QD Normalium, LO Physical, LO Special, AoA Fightium, and probably more (I saw someone use Icium Z QD because fuck Gengar I guess but it was one person so I doubt it's a common set). If you need an offensive role performed, Pheromosa's got you covered. Also wow that's beginning to sound like Genesect

Preparing for it teambuilding wise is perhaps the most strenuous part of building in SM OU right now - Not packing enough checks might as well be an autoloss vs some Pheromosa sets, and even if you do, Pheromosa can still win because it's that absurd of a Pokemon. Toxapex offense is a thing because of this monster, and that alone should say a crap tonne about this thing's impact on the tier, not to mention almost all of Pheromosa's defensive answers have things that make them otherwise subpar choices; Pex is absurdly passive and loses to Normalium Z QD anyways; Tapu Fini also loses to Normalium QD and also takes a tonne from the occasional Poison Jab; Alolawak has no recovery and is worn down by rocks incredibly easily; Volc also loses to QD Normalium Z and takes a tonne from physically inclined sets' HJK, and is one shot by said HJK if rocks are up; most Scarfers autolose to QD or are RKd by ScarfMosa anyways; Scarf Geng has to be preserved or QD +1 Ice Beam KOs after minimal prior damage (also lol @ the rare Icium Z QD), and +2 just flat out OHKOs regardless; the only common priority that OHKOs is MPinsir's Quick Attack and Adamant BandGarde's ESpeed (which needs rocks up to OHKO 100% of the time), and that's not even touching on Psychic Terrain, which I won't mention further because this is the Pheromosa suspect, not the "Blame Lele" party.

As for playing vs it? Letting it get in for free vs something it threatens is dangerous af - Stay in, something important dies, switch out, you risk it Quiver Dancing and possibly ending the game right there. QD is untouchable speedwise after 1 boost, and every kill it gets (which isn't hard if you click the Z move) makes it stronger. Even if it's not the extremely dangerous Quiver Dance set, you have other things to be worry about - Naive/Timid Life Orb or Timid Specs (though idk how many people run Timid Specs) sets get faster and faster with every kill, non QD Fightium or Modest Specs also gets the special boost and is a nightmare for balance not carrying Alolawak or Toxapex, and Scarf also gets more and more dangerous with every kill if it's Naughty/Modest, letting it snowball by just spamming STABs. Staying in vs Pheromosa is dangerous, but switching out is almost as, if not, as dangerous. It also snowballs like crazy if it gets a kill, which isn't helping it's case.

Oh yeah and this is all without mentioning U-turn. Honestly, I've never felt myself missing it if because of how destructive Pheromosa is anyways with FBlast and Bug Buzz, but it's an option.

Looking at the tour scene, it has a 75% win ratio and 40% usage in SPL week 9, with a just over 50% win ratio and #3 most used overall. Though, admittedly the win ratio wasn't anywhere near as high in some previous weeks. I've also seen many matches where Pheromosa picks up multiple kills or just straight up sweeps with QD. Again, admittedly, there are some matches where it only attacks once or twice and does nothing outside of that, but these are usually Scarf Pheromosa.

Literally the only anti ban arguments I can think of are "it's frail" and "it's movepool is shallow", but compared to pro ban arguments, they're not really convincing and are more the only things keeping this thing from being QB worthy.

I highly doubt I'll be able to make reqs because fuck ladder, but if I could, I would vote BAN.

EDIT: Oh yeah and also Z-Focus Blast OHKOs MMeta which is insane

 

[Ads20000]

I'm not really good enough at Gen 7 OU to talk here, but people wanted a devil's advocate so I'm gonna give it a go:

Does Pheromosa really need to be banned? What actually counts as centralisation? Pheromosa does have a number of checks and counters (or that analysis is plain wrong and should be fixed), so it is possible to play around it, and many high-usage Pokemon centralise to an extent in that you have to be aware of certain Pokemon you need to be able to check/counter if you're team's going to get anywhere in the tier (it's why mine doesn't) - isn't Pheromosa the same?

Secondly, once Pheromosa is banned, would this cause more problems than fix? If Pheromosa is banned, what other Pokemon will have less checks and need to be banned if people are to be consistent in their banning, and which Pokemon would need to be banned when these are banned etc? If the banning chain takes out a lot of the tier, will the metagame really end up in a healthier state than where it started? And will this make many more Pokemon unusable than usable since they'll be unviable in Ubers and banned from OU (you can see the negative consequences of the ban-happy philosophy of the UU Council example with many Pokemon being left in BL limbo)?

I hope someone with more experience could build on these themes for a devil's advocate argument before it inevitably gets knocked down (I recognise these are very generic themes which can be used as anti-ban reasons in nearly any suspect test). Cheers.

And no Niadev there's at least one person who thinks it isn't broken but should be banned anyway.

 

[nameless90]

Ban Pheromosa.
I don't want to rehash once more points we have been reading since page 1, but:
(1) It has exactly the movepool it needs to be effective, coupled with stats in the right places (=both offensive stats and Spe);
(2) Its "checks" can be easily overwhelmed because are either bulky, but without recovery (i.e. Alolan Marowak) or bulky, with recovery but slow (i.e. Mega Venusaur/Scizor). Toxapex deserves a mention thanks to the combination of lucky typing + access to both Recover and Regenerator without wasting the Megastone slot. Ghosts in general could be checks if they were bulky.
This Bug can even run items such as Choice Band of Specs to have an easier time towards Stall and semi-Stall.
(3) It outclass even some Scarfers without the +Spe boost and everything after a +1, thus reducing the viability of many monsters on the OU environment. The fact that Scarfed monster can't outspeed Pheromosa at +1 Spe is ridiculous.

===> Pheromosa, while not being as good as Deoxys, it still proves to be too much for the OU environment.

 

[toshimelonhead]

Ads20000 if/when Pheromosa gets banned, Smogon doesn't worry about ripple effects during suspect testing. If something is broken post-Pheromosa, Smogon has another suspect test until OU has a balanced metagame. It does not matter how good a mon might be in Ubers or if Smogon has 20 different Suspect Tests to get to balanced.

For the analysis "Checks and Counters", a lot of those listed can only deal with a couple of Pheromosa variations and not every single Pheromosa set. The difference between Pheromosa and other high powered threats is Pheromosa's ability to take out its own checks under the right circumstances. Poison-types have to worry about Z-Hyper Beam. The current ghosts in OU do not have enough bulk to check Pheromosa consistently, and even Mega Sableye is 2HKOed by Bug Buzz. Gyarados, Mantine, and Pelipper all have to worry about Stealth Rock, and Buzzwole loses to Special Pheromosa. Priority users cannot check Pheromosa under Psychic Terrain and Scarfers cannot check Pheromosa if Pheromosa has a Beast Boost. That's the whole "Checks and Counters" section.

 

[PK Bash]

Props to the council for waiting a decent amount of time before going through with this, fully respect that call.
That said, Phero can gtfo as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not really good enough at Gen 7 OU to talk here, but people wanted a devil's advocate so I'm gonna give it a go:

Does Pheromosa really need to be banned? What actually counts as centralisation? Pheromosa does have a number of checks and counters (or that analysis is plain wrong and should be fixed), so it is possible to play around it, and many high-usage Pokemon centralise to an extent in that you have to be aware of certain Pokemon you need to be able to check/counter if you're team's going to get anywhere in the tier (it's why mine doesn't) - isn't Pheromosa the same?

Secondly, once Pheromosa is banned, would this cause more problems than fix? If Pheromosa is banned, what other Pokemon will have less checks and need to be banned if people are to be consistent in their banning, and which Pokemon would need to be banned when these are banned etc? If the banning chain takes out a lot of the tier, will the metagame really end up in a healthier state than where it started? And will this make many more Pokemon unusable than usable since they'll be unviable in Ubers and banned from OU (you can see the negative consequences of the ban-happy philosophy of the UU Council example with many Pokemon being left in BL limbo)?

I hope someone with more experience could build on these themes for a devil's advocate argument before it inevitably gets knocked down (I recognise these are very generic themes which can be used as anti-ban reasons in nearly any suspect test). Cheers.

And no Niadev there's at least one person who thinks it isn't broken but should be banned anyway.

I appreciate where you're going and what you're doing with this, but neither point is a strong basis for a counterargument unfortunately.
Ok so point one, just because it does have a few checks and counters in theory so you can kinda sorta play around it, doesn't stop it from stifling the game. Sure Mantine checks it in theory, but why use Mantine when you can use e.g. Toxapex? Its a rare scenario to say the least and even then, Toxapex is more often than not a frankly suboptimal choice that you need to use out of necessity, not because it gives any new dimensions to your team. With other centralising Pokemon, at least your responses are actually functional in the context of the team.
Not going to go too in-depth, I think you can see the point I'm making and if I elaborate I'll just be repeating what others have said already. Not much point in that.

Point two is a horrible can of worms I don't want to go anywhere near, but I'm sure you've heard people say "we don't keep broken things to check broken things". To be fair, you raise a valid point as this is the way we've seen metas turn to shit in the past. But I do not agree with your solution. The point you raise is why it is so important to wait a while until we start suspecting things. These days a suspect is more or less a death sentence when it comes to Pokemon that everyone's straight-up lost to more than once because said Pokemon is able to reinvent itself round existing counterplay. Even though such evolution is what makes this game interesting in the first place, but that's neither here nor there.

Brings me back to this suspect: people have been asking for this since... November really, and moaned that the council "wasn't listening". But people need to appreciate that if we start banning things knee-jerk, this is how metagames turn boring. You got to wait for development and evolution before just screaming "ban it". See how it goes and assess if the issue is getting better or worse - especially if the issue is a brand new mon.

So yeah. Good call holding back on this one. Much respect.
That said, it's time for Pheromosa to go.

 

[oookillemd-tan]

I agree with banning pheromosa, but I think the notion of "this thing is so versatile it can beat any of its counters it must be banned" is just not true. Things like toxapex, Tapu fini, Mega-venusaur, gengar are pretty safe checks no matter what set its running, for they can beat bug/fighting/ice coverage. It is true that phero can run Z-Hyper Beam and specs HP electric, but they involve giving up coverage/utility or locking yourself into an abusable move.

The main reason i see for banning it is that once its counters are gone, as mons like venusaur and fini get worn down pretty easily, pheromosa destroys everything else. Z-Focus Blast nukes anything, and the beast boost from after the kill means that focus blast does the same to the next mon. Phero QDing on the switch means that switching is not a good option, and yet staying in on pheromosa would result in a beast boost which can be just as bad. If a team does not have a good check, it just falls most of the time

 

[Avant Heim]

The major point is:There's any thing that can enter on this thing and be safe?

The answer:NO

I'm sure that some of you think that the likes of:Marowak-A,Defensive Volcarona(dunno if this is viable),Toxapex and Tapu Fini wall Pheromosa,the true is: Not really

Marowak-A And Volcarona(defensive to specify): I Know that Marowak-a and Volcarona resist the 2stabs of pheromosa(marowaka is immune to one of then) BUT they take a good chunk of damage from HP Rock after some prior damage,here,have some calcs:

Marowak: 224+ SpA Pheromosa Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 176-208 (67.4 - 79.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Volcarona:224+ SpA Pheromosa Hidden Power Rock vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 284-336 (76.7 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

See?They can't enter fully safely with out having to worry about HP Rock

Toxapex: Now that is a interesting case,there 2 types of scenario for toxapex:Z-Hyper Beam or U-Turn

Z-Hyper beam: a simple case,Z-Hyper Beam with some prior damage and a good damage role can OHKO Toxapex with 24 SpD investiment

+1 224+ SpA Pheromosa Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 265-312 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

U-Turn: Now for a more "deep",Pheromosa can U-Turn in Toxapex in the switch and go to mons that will threaten Toxapex out,like:Tapu Lele,Tapu Koko,Garchomp,Landorus-T,Choice Band Tapu Bulu or Calm Mind+Taunt Fini

Tapu Fini: Fini don't have realible recovery(outside of Z-Haze or Aqua Ring) and il go down to a Poison Jab after some prior damage,and even with only SR in the field,Pheromosa can use a Poisonium-Z set with Poison Jab and get a kill on fini

252 Atk Pheromosa Acid Downpour (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 272-322 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

OverAll:Pheromosa is a very difficult pokémon to stop,and it has a high chance of being banned

 

[Toshiro46]

But you should also appreciate the skill it takes to run different Pheromosa sets effectively. The first person who ran Fightinium Z Focus Blast or Normalium Z Hyper Beam sets should get some credit for actually thinking outside the box and coming up with viable sets for Pheromosa.

Instead you're just saying that people running Pheromosa aren't displaying any skill and they just win if the opponent guesses incorrectly. That's not true at all. I would argue running Pheromosa properly actually requires a lot of skill.

Pokemon is full of chance. Smogon can't ban all chance from the game. I'm sorry to tell you that.

(again, not saying Pheromosa isn't banworthy)

That's not at all what I said. I said that playing against Pheromosa has very little skill involved, because you're essentially baselessly guessing as to which set it has and if you're wrong then you sack a mon or it gets QD off and you're just fucked.

Lol, I know Pokemon has chance, but this is a competitive game. A mon whose best counterplay is guessing right as to which set it's running (because all other counterplay can be played around with by certain sets) is a bullshit mon.

 

[ericaroselia]

The major point is:There's any thing that can enter on this thing and be safe?

The answer:NO

I'm sure that some of you think that the likes of:Marowak-A,Defensive Volcarona(dunno if this is viable),Toxapex and Tapu Fini wall Pheromosa,the true is: Not really

Marowak-A And Volcarona(defensive to specify): I Know that Marowak-a and Volcarona resist the 2stabs of pheromosa(marowaka is immune to one of then) BUT they take a good chunk of damage from HP Rock after some prior damage,here,have some calcs:


See?They can't enter fully safely with out having to worry about HP Rock

Toxapex: Now that is a interesting case,there 2 types of scenario for toxapex:Z-Hyper Beam or U-Turn

Z-Hyper beam: a simple case,Z-Hyper Beam with some prior damage and a good damage role can OHKO Toxapex with 24 SpD investiment



U-Turn: Now for a more "deep",Pheromosa can U-Turn in Toxapex in the switch and go to mons that will threaten Toxapex out,like:Tapu Lele,Tapu Koko,Garchomp,Landorus-T,Choice Band Tapu Bulu or Calm Mind+Taunt Fini

Tapu Fini: Fini don't have realible recovery(outside of Z-Haze or Aqua Ring) and il go down to a Poison Jab after some prior damage,and even with only SR in the field,Pheromosa can use a Poisonium-Z set with Poison Jab and get a kill on fini



OverAll:Pheromosa is a very difficult pokémon to stop,and it has a high chance of being banned

You made some good points and Phero has indeed a good chance of being banned but don't use HP Rock as an argument for that, that move is incredibly rare on Pheromosa and is a slot waste overall because it basically only hits Volcarona trying to set up and Alola Marowak which isn't super common or anything but it's pretty manageable for offense since it lacks recovery and is easily pressured, especially when it's weak to rocks.

 

[MelinCantrit34]

The major point is:There's any thing that can enter on this thing and be safe?

The answer:NO

I'm sure that some of you think that the likes of:Marowak-A,Defensive Volcarona(dunno if this is viable),Toxapex and Tapu Fini wall Pheromosa,the true is: Not really

Marowak-A And Volcarona(defensive to specify): I Know that Marowak-a and Volcarona resist the 2stabs of pheromosa(marowaka is immune to one of then) BUT they take a good chunk of damage from HP Rock after some prior damage,here,have some calcs:


See?They can't enter fully safely with out having to worry about HP Rock

Toxapex: Now that is a interesting case,there 2 types of scenario for toxapex:Z-Hyper Beam or U-Turn

Z-Hyper beam: a simple case,Z-Hyper Beam with some prior damage and a good damage role can OHKO Toxapex with 24 SpD investiment



U-Turn: Now for a more "deep",Pheromosa can U-Turn in Toxapex in the switch and go to mons that will threaten Toxapex out,like:Tapu Lele,Tapu Koko,Garchomp,Landorus-T,Choice Band Tapu Bulu or Calm Mind+Taunt Fini

Tapu Fini: Fini don't have realible recovery(outside of Z-Haze or Aqua Ring) and il go down to a Poison Jab after some prior damage,and even with only SR in the field,Pheromosa can use a Poisonium-Z set with Poison Jab and get a kill on fini



OverAll:Pheromosa is a very difficult pokémon to stop,and it has a high chance of being banned

I think that you're kind of exagerating Pheromosa capabilities. HP rock? Seriously?

Moveset Usage Stats

| Moves | | Ice Beam 93.899% | | High Jump Kick 58.821% | | U-turn 57.061% | | Bug Buzz 43.715% | | Focus Blast 39.950% | | Poison Jab 39.699% | | Rapid Spin 28.534% | | Quiver Dance 23.061% | | Other 15.259% |

That shit isn't even listed lol, and the oppotunity cost of running it is extremely high, you are just checking 2 mons (one of which you said isn't even that common) in exchange of being completely walled by Lando, the most common Pokémon in the the tier, I don't think that anyone in it's right mind would run that so I would call Marowak-A a pretty safe counter (Defensive Volcarona is just a check because it gets 2HKO'd after rocks).

Also, I'm pro ban, but please let's not treat Pheromosa like it's the most broken Pokemon that has touched the tier, because it's not.

 

[Egyptianmego5]

Some food for thought:
So I was reading the OU Council's thoughts on Phero, and they stated 6 counters:

Tapu Fini
Toxapex
Clefable
Alola-wak
Gengar
Tornadus-T

Let's see if they are really counters or not:

You see, one of my teams has a choice specs sets of FBlast/IceBeam/

T-T:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 244-288 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Tornadus-T can't even switch in)
252+ SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 162-192 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO (Lol, even without choice specs it still can't counter it well)
4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 161-190 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO (Yeah...)

Gengar:

4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 140-166 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Need scarf! (seriously tho, are you gonna use a scarf user to deal with phero? sooo unreliable))
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 213-251 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Lol, add some chip and bye bye gengar)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 284-336 (108.8 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Yeah... if you invest more in bulk then you're gonna be too slow and specs HP ground 2hkos every gengar unless you're running 252/252+ AV (lol) and you also need SR outta the field so yeah)

Toxapex:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (Wow, even toxapex falls to the mighty phero, not to mention that it is passive and it is destroyed with dugtrio)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 126-150 (41.4 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery (This set narrowly avoids a 2hko after SR, but just add some chip damage (okay I admit it is a little hard with regenerator) and you get carried through)

Alola-wak:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 270-318 (103.4 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (LOL!)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Marowak-Alola: 188-222 (58 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (still 2hko)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Marowak-Alola: 124-148 (38.2 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Okay, you can take a hit now, but suffer from a suboptimal set and suffer from the fact that you're still 2hko'ed after SR, Oh yeah and you can't constantly switch in)

There's also HP electric

Tapu-Fini:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 120-141 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 71.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (nice 3hko there just ad some chip damage and boom, yeah this one counters choice specs phero but not very well, and I can troll you and run)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 160-190 (46.6 - 55.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Yeah)

Oh wait, Phero learns poison jab!

252+ Atk Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Tapu Fini: 132-156 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Damn, a 3hko again even with max max max defense)

252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Tapu Fini: 172-203 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (lol)

252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Tapu Fini: 180-212 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (lol)

Yeah...

Clefable:

252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Clefable: 356-420 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (TF okay let's get real)

252+ Atk Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Clefable: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


I mean, sure they may counter most Phero's variants but the widely common Choice Specs deals with 4 of those so-called counters, and the rare Choice Band set deals with the other 2 (I also think the Choice Band set also deals with Torna-T), heck, even the LO set deals pretty well with Clefable and Tapu Fini, when you see a Phero it is a guessing game until you figure out its set, seems familiar? (*hint metal bug hint*), and there's no surefire counter to Phero that can counter all of its sets, I would mostly go with Toxapex or Tapu Fini, but if my opponent runs a choice specs set with HP ground and sees that I have a Toxapex on my team, it is really obvious that I'm gonna switch to it and then my so-called-counter becomes just a dead-weight, so I've just fitted a passive pokemon on my offensive team to deal with Phero and it failed in its role, how nice...
The OU council in the OP summed up mostly everything nicely, I would recommend reading their thoughts again.

Oh yeah, one more thing, Scarf Pheromosa late-game is a whole new topic and don't even get me started that Phero learns U-turn

Edit: Admittedly defensive Volcarona deals with Pheromosa quite well, but it dies to SR, rip.

My point is that Pheromosa needs to be banned because of the combination of its stats, movepool and ability.

NOT because it's "versatile" or "unpredictable."

Starmie can run bulky defensive sets or pure offensive sets, be a spinner or a cleaner, run bolt beam or just its stab attacks, have natural cure or analytic ability, hold leftovers, life orb or focus sash, or even set up gravity. It's versatile and unpredictable. But it's not ban worthy.

Ban Pheromosa but for the right reasons. Not because people predict it wrong and get butthurt.

I wouldn't ban mosa for its stats, movepool and ability only, I mean a predictable mosa is manageable even with such stats, movepool and ability. It is just the combination of its stats, movepool, ability, versatility and unpredictability makes it banworthy, Starmie may be unpredictable, but its stats aren't that good, Phero tho...

 

[Sulfurian]

What's interesting to observe is that many are calculating the damage of what they listed as "checks and counters" with various moves that Phero has access to.

Essentially it's why things like protein Greninja and Mega Lucario got banned in gen 6. Is it carrying Z-hyper beam/focus blast with quiver, or is it carrying U turn life orb? Suddenly my check is now a burden. It's not so much "eh 137 offenses isn't new nowadays" but it's the fact that it can completely turn the tide if you don't have the right check for it. Not to mention "well I have to bring this to counter Phero" if you wanted to run something else, and you could still lose because you didn't cover that specific set.

What's also interesting to note is, I wonder later down the line Z moves are what can cause a deal breaker in "unexpected" suspect tests.

 

[Lady Alex]

I don't think there's much to say, since everyone is well aware of what a monster Pheromosa is. Around the time its special sets starting gaining popularity, it was obvious that it was going to be an inevitable ban. It's nice that we're finally taking a step in the right direction, though, and hopefully we don't suspect future mons at the same crawling pace that's been used so far.

 

[SJCrew]

I had several thoughts swimming in my mind as of the posting of this thread, and I've settled on the fact that I won't be posting them all any time soon. One of them was to challenge TDK's skepticism and devil's advocate. Appropriately critical to a fault, I'm going to have to shake my head in diapproval that the counteraguments to Pheromosa's ban are strong enough to warrant consideration, particularly in the face of its game-ending Z-Quiver Dance sets. There is less counterplay to Quiver-Mosa than anything else in OU. Even if we put aside what it would take just to scout its set out, watching the SPL games in which the opponent is a miniscule amount of HP from losing the game outright is a completely discomfiting display of how much unequivocal control Pheromosa exercises over a game after a boost.

I'm not particularly bothered by the summation of Pheromosa's sets, but rather at the utter lack of resources at our disposal to suppress its sheer domiance as a win con.

 

[fightnugget]

'mosaz gotta go. It reminds me of mega luke in xy. At first the physical set was a menace, but when the special sets started to become more popular it was clear that mega skywalker put too big a constraint on teambuilding, just like queen p.

They're both versatile mons but they just sweep/clean. With all the different sets they have they still do pretty much the same thing, but require different checks, and for both mons it's very difficult to predict what you're about to face at team preview.

& mosa has the added bonuses of item versatility, outruns the universe, & has one of the most punishing abilities for an opponent that makes a wrong prediction.

Sorry for all the anecdotal connections to mega luke, I just get very similar feelings when I see mos in preview that I did when m luke first came out and fucked up ou.

I think ou's done all it can to handle pheromosa and if we keep it in the tier we'll find more viable sets for it before we find more reliable checks.

 

[bsu]

i think we're quickly reaching a point where there's not much else to say and people will just post to post and not offer anything new so plz don't just regurgitate what's already been said w/o offering some new viewpoint!!!

to offer something new, phermosa does suffer a bit from 4MSS, having to run bug and fighting stab obviously, ice beam most of the time, and then having to choose between setup/rapid spin/or choosing a coverage from P-jab or various hidden powers. obviously it cant beat every single mon in the tier with just one set, and 4MSS has never been that significant of a force to hold a mon back from being broken (Mega lucario for ex), but it still exists and makes it a little less broken. i feel if talon flame hadn't been nerfed this mon would be way less broken too lol but no point in thinking about that :/

 

[Hugin]

I don't think there's much to say, since everyone is well aware of what a monster Pheromosa is. Around the time its special sets starting gaining popularity, it was obvious that it was going to be an inevitable ban. It's nice that we're finally taking a step in the right direction, though, and hopefully we don't suspect future mons at the same crawling pace that's been used so far.

Eh, I get waiting so they can be sure which of the OPAF things in the tier is worst so they can target that first and be sure that there's no random-ass counterplay someone could figure out to make it non-broken. Going forward though, yeah, let the tier settle from a ban and then target the next thing.

On-topic, it's the speed+Beast Boost. If it had Soul Heart, every scarfer in the tier could come in and threaten it out. That's at least counterplay. Instead, you either need strong priority(and still lose if it's teamed with a Lele), something that can switch in repeatedly through the match(only Toxapex can do so repeatedly), or something that can take a +1 hit. And you still have to worry about Z-sets and U-Turn even in those situations. Ban Deoxys-Bug

 

[Random Passerby]

I would just like to mention that because of Pheromosa's great Speed, priority is pretty much the only way it is going to be revenged (most Scarfters can't even outsped it after a boost). However, Water Shuriken - the go-to method of killing Pheromosa - fails to KO a +1 Pheromosa without prior damage. The other forms of priority ; such as Mega Metagross's Bullet Punch, Choice Band Zygarde's Extreme Speed and Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch all fall short of a OHKO. While Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack does the job, it means you are not running Mega Metagross or Mega Scizor. To make things even worse, Psychic Terrain prevents Priority moves from working.

Secondly, Pheromosa's access to Z-Hyper Beam and Z-Focus Blast has enough power to blow past its checks if they have been weakened. For example, Toxapex can fall to a +1 Breakneck Blitz if it is not at a high enough health. Besides the Quiver Dance set, Pheromosa's can also run Choice Specs and 3 Attacks + Rapid Spin to mix things up so that it is difficult to build yourself a team that is not weak to it unless you put Toxapex and another Phero answer on a team, which I feel is too restricting when there are so many threats in OU. While I might not be a very good player, my opinion is that we need to ban Pheromosa.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Well, it seems we have a near unanimous outlook on this suspect. Lol, seems unprecedented. At least in this thread, for whatever that is worth.

Anyways, not going to step on too many toes and keep it short and sweet.

I'll be honest, early on, talking first month or so, I didn't agree with everyone jumping on the "Ban Mosa" train. At the time, it was not what everyone made it out to be. With that said, it was only because new toy syndrome gave Mosa a tiny bit of a hard time (I'm talking miniscule). However, most of those Pokemon died off with PokeBank being introduced, and thus, Pheromosa blew way the hell up. People got wise, threw Normalium Z on her, and created an extremely restrictive Pokemon for the metagame. Not only are its counters few and far between, in order to counter her, it needs to be the respective set to put a full stop to it. Otherwise, you're screwed. This analogy is not a comparison, but I'm sure peoole will still think it is one, but I see Pheromosa as a far more offensive Aegislash in that it runs multiple sets that can break past its other sets' counters. Meaning, you carry multiple counters, or pack a shit ton of priority mons and hope they don't have a Tapu Lele. All in all, this thing needs to go.

I honestly don't know how anyone can be on the opposite side of this argument, but am more than willing to hear someone out.

 

[Cresselia92]

It looks like there is an overwhelming support in banning Pheromosa, which is quite unprecedented. As such, I would like to know something.

If there is such sheer amount of support toward ban, would it be possible to quicken the suspect process? I pretty much doubt that anyone would say more than what has already been said about this Ultra Beast, so it would make sense to make the suspect end quicker, so that we won't end up repeating the same arguments over and over.

These are just my two cents on the matter.

 

[Jojobobo]

To add to my earlier points, I think part of the problem is there isn't really an effective way to scout its sets. Ordinarily with top tier threats that have several viable sets you can counter different sets across several mons through scouting, however when it comes to Pheromosa that becomes extremely difficult due to it also being a setup sweeper.

Protect? It makes you Quiver Dance bait, especially if it's the kind of mon Pheromosa would have forced to switch out. Substitute? Again you're Quiver Dance bait, made all the worse that your sub is bypassed the following turn by Bug Buzz. U-turn pivoting and manual switching to a counter? Pheromosa can take U-turns even from Mega Bee and live after rocks due to it's resistant, so it doesn't worry too much about that chip damage if they correctly predict your U-turn, and they tend to learn much more about your anti-Pheromosa strategy in the bargain than you do of their set.

This produces a reliance on just one or two sets that handle all varieties of Pheromosa to an extent, which is the very definition of over-centralization. I can't see any really argument to support that Pheromosa encourages a more varied and interesting meta.

I think what really needs to happen, is alongside discussion of Pheromosa, someone needs to parody Tale as Old as Time with Pheromosa relevant Beauty and the Boost lyrics. It's definitely a missed opportunity not to.