CAP Updates: Revenankh Discussion (Complete)

[Deck Knight]

Just a leadership update, I'm currently asking the ULs/GLs for feedback on what they feel constitutes a "Pokemon's Essence."

This thread offers ample evidence that people can come to multiple conclusions based on what the Pokemon can do and what has historically done.

I think there are enough calcs in this thread to justify the idea Bulk Up is still relevant. Revenank's 105 Attack stat is indeed less than standard Gen 7 Metagame threats, but those other threats tend not to have as strong neutral coverage. Ever since Steel stopped resisting Ghost, if you could actually pull off a strong Physical Ghost attack you were very threatening because the only things standing in your way are Dark and Normal, which are both weak to Fighting. (Steel was too. But the primary Steels in OU have always been Fighting-Neutral w/ options against Fighting e.g. Skarmory, Scizor, Metagross, Bronzong, Jirachi, etc.). In fact, if Banette got access to Close Combat (or even Superpower) it probably would be seen a lot more, its struggles all come down to only having Ghost as a legitimate offensive option (having the defenses of a literal rag doll didn't help either.) Revenankh doesn't have any of those offensive or defensive problems. Heck, if we gave Revenankh Prankster it could in some ways be just as menacing as Tomohawk, with Bulk Up's Defense boost guaranteed to come into effect and Moonlight offering priority healing.

Glare is another path Revenankh has traversed and it also does that fairly well, although paralysis only reducing speed by half instead of 75% limits is usefulness against Scarfers. Reach said Malaconda is generally better at this function, though I think Revenankh has a distinct huge advantage by being able to Glare in the face of U-turners without fear. Shed Skin also means it can afford to get statused instead.

Choice Band Rev is a good meme but it exists mostly because the neutral coverage is there and Rev is really lacking for offensive options with high damage output. Technician doesn't solve that problem because Technician at maximum gets attacks not named Bonemerrang and Gear Grind to 90 Base Power. Technician should not be selected on the basis it makes Shadow Punch usable, I'd much rather we pursue giving Revenankh Shadow Bone or Phantom Force (Z-Move) and discuss more effective solutions.

Which brings us to "neutral coverage exploiter" and the push behind Adaptability, Tough Claws, etc. There's just something I don't like about those abilities, not because they aren't effective but because they seem like too easy a road to traverse. Revenankh's initial playstyle was great because it was so unique and so hard to break. I must admit jas' Poison Heal replicates the sort of fury Revenankh would induce after its initial release by simply refusing to go down easily - though the most effective sets are likely to forego both Bulk Up AND Glare.

In any case, I suggested Sand Rush because far and away, Rev's best allies have always been Pokemon that thrived in Sand rather than Sun or Rain because Rev couldn't tank the boosted Fire/Water moves that came with those weathers. I don't know however if anchoring Revenankh to Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Gigalith as well as Exca on Sand teams is the way to bring it back into meta relevance though. It would certainly be a GOOD Sand sweeper/utility and would offer Sand teams spinblocking protection they don't currently enjoy, seeing as Aegislash is banned, Doublade is too passive, Pallosand and Golurk just compound all the Water/Grass/Ice weaknesses, and Kitsunoh isn't bulky enough to do the role properly.

So with all that in mind, what do people think Revenank's "Essence" is? To me Revenankh has always been unique for its staying power and unique brand of offensive pressure. It's translating that into Generation 7 that is going to take some work.

 

[G-Luke]

Just a leadership update, I'm currently asking the ULs/GLs for feedback on what they feel constitutes a "Pokemon's Essence."

This thread offers ample evidence that people can come to multiple conclusions based on what the Pokemon can do and what has historically done.

I think there are enough calcs in this thread to justify the idea Bulk Up is still relevant. Revenank's 105 Attack stat is indeed less than standard Gen 7 Metagame threats, but those other threats tend not to have as strong neutral coverage. Ever since Steel stopped resisting Ghost, if you could actually pull off a strong Physical Ghost attack you were very threatening because the only things standing in your way are Dark and Normal, which are both weak to Fighting. (Steel was too. But the primary Steels in OU have always been Fighting-Neutral w/ options against Fighting e.g. Skarmory, Scizor, Metagross, Bronzong, Jirachi, etc.). In fact, if Banette got access to Close Combat (or even Superpower) it probably would be seen a lot more, its struggles all come down to only having Ghost as a legitimate offensive option (having the defenses of a literal rag doll didn't help either.) Revenankh doesn't have any of those offensive or defensive problems. Heck, if we gave Revenankh Prankster it could in some ways be just as menacing as Tomohawk, with Bulk Up's Defense boost guaranteed to come into effect and Moonlight offering priority healing.

Glare is another path Revenankh has traversed and it also does that fairly well, although paralysis only reducing speed by half instead of 75% limits is usefulness against Scarfers. Reach said Malaconda is generally better at this function, though I think Revenankh has a distinct huge advantage by being able to Glare in the face of U-turners without fear. Shed Skin also means it can afford to get statused instead.

Choice Band Rev is a good meme but it exists mostly because the neutral coverage is there and Rev is really lacking for offensive options with high damage output. Technician doesn't solve that problem because Technician at maximum gets attacks not named Bonemerrang and Gear Grind to 90 Base Power. Technician should not be selected on the basis it makes Shadow Punch usable, I'd much rather we pursue giving Revenankh Shadow Bone or Phantom Force (Z-Move) and discuss more effective solutions.

Which brings us to "neutral coverage exploiter" and the push behind Adaptability, Tough Claws, etc. There's just something I don't like about those abilities, not because they aren't effective but because they seem like too easy a road to traverse. Revenankh's initial playstyle was great because it was so unique and so hard to break. I must admit jas' Poison Heal replicates the sort of fury Revenankh would induce after its initial release by simply refusing to go down easily - though the most effective sets are likely to forego both Bulk Up AND Glare.

In any case, I suggested Sand Rush because far and away, Rev's best allies have always been Pokemon that thrived in Sand rather than Sun or Rain because Rev couldn't tank the boosted Fire/Water moves that came with those weathers. I don't know however if anchoring Revenankh to Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Gigalith as well as Exca on Sand teams is the way to bring it back into meta relevance though. It would certainly be a GOOD Sand sweeper/utility and would offer Sand teams spinblocking protection they don't currently enjoy, seeing as Aegislash is banned, Doublade is too passive, Pallosand and Golurk just compound all the Water/Grass/Ice weaknesses, and Kitsunoh isn't bulky enough to do the role properly.

So with all that in mind, what do people think Revenank's "Essence" is? To me Revenankh has always been unique for its staying power and unique brand of offensive pressure. It's translating that into Generation 7 that is going to take some work.

I agree with all of these statements, but a small nitpick - I was the one who intially brought up Poison Heal.

 

[Kyubics]

Answering the question about Revenankh's identity will, in my opinion, ultimately decide where this update will end up. I'm not going to answer this question now, but I just wanted to throw out some replays of one kind of update we could give Revenankh. I am not implying that this is what we should do or even that it is the general consensus. I just wanted to prove to some people that this kind of update would make a positive change to Revenankh's viability.

Update Test 1: 'CB Rev is no longer a meme'

Changes (checked with UL before using):

• Revenankh now has the ability Adaptability
• Revenankh can now use Gunk Shot

General Thoughts:

• This update focuses on Revenankh's wallbreaking capabilities. Hammer Arm becomes powerful enough to nuke balance teams that can struggle to switch into it and Shadow Sneak becomes useful for picking off set-up sweepers. The latter can also become a problem for weakened offensive teams as many of the frailer Pokemon found on this archetype take upwards of 40%. This became a focal point of my team which attempted to utilise hazard stacking in order to wear down the opposition for Revenankh to clean. Revenankh's Ghost typing is also useful for spinblocking and preventing hazards from being removed. I only ever clicked a non-STAB move once and never needed to utilise Gunk Shot. Mega Metagross, a prominent Pokemon, seems to have good synergy with Revenankh, as does Tapu Koko, which can provide Volt Switch support to allow Revenankh to be pivoted into Pokemon like Magearna and Ferrothorn. Revenankh is useful for switching into Pheromosa as it takes little from all of its moves and can OHKO with Shadow Sneak. However, Revenankh is easily revenge killed by faster Pokemon if not locked into Shadow Sneak or the opponent is not in Shadow Sneak range. Tapu Lele always forces it out. Overall, Revenankh functions well in the role of a wallbreaker, taking advantage of the few Ghost resists found in the tier and generally breaking down balance teams. Despite this, it is almost always forced out after a kill due to its poor speed.

Replays:

• Vs Drapionswing - Not the best replay, this was my first time using Revenankh and I ended up letting it get Pursuit trapped twice by Tyranitar. However, it forced out a boosted Volcarona with the threat of Shadow Sneak and also spinblocked against Starmie. Blame pokeaim for the Scarf Koko.
• Vs Drapionswing - Ended up losing this by playing badly against Specs Kerfluffle, but Revenankh begins to put in work after getting free switches from Koko. Helpfully dents Skarmory and Mollux but is cut short by a Hammer Arm miss against Magearna (which I speed crept and killed). Shadow Sneak would've been nice late game. Also I lack a good switch-in to Mollux.
• Vs Drapionswing - Revenankh pressured Magearna and eventually knocked it out. I wasn't afraid of Syclant because Revenankh revenge killed it after any hit from Fini. Revenankh could also have won late game with Shadow Sneak if Mega Metagross had somehow died.
• Vs KrazyCake - Revenankh finishes off Salamence and was an option to finish Mawile but I didn't want to risk it having some speed EVs. I misplayed Landorus-T in fear of Sucker Punch but I think Revenankh would've won at the end if Ferrothorn had gone down.
• Vs Heaven Jay - I played badly for the most part but Shadow Sneak proved very useful and ended up getting three kills (the crit on Lele didn't matter btw). Definitely shows that Revenankh isn't dead weight against faster teams.
• Vs Heaven Jay - Jay had to leave halfway through but I thought I'd include this to show the one time Revenankh didn't click a STAB move. A change of animation I guess.

I know that these aren't the best replays and I know that my team wasn't perfect, but I tried to show a little of what this update would do for Revenankh. I don't know if anyone will find this helpful or even the slightest bit enlightening, but I guess if it was good let me know and I can do it again for the other potential updates :D

 

[G-Luke]

Sorry for the doubleposting, but I wanted to point out something important.

I think people are viewing Rev the wrong way. People are trying to justify that Rev is still a good option for sweeping. Which Im just gonna point out its not. It is rubbish on offensive teams that need a sweeper option for various reasons (momentum sap, passive af, doesnt have the sheer bulk to set up on offensive mons, requires to much support). Its not really a good sweeper on balance due to similar reasons said above, and stall does not do sweepers. Against these playstyles it doesnt achieve much sweeping either. Offence breaks it before it can get a Bulk Up off. Balance's pivots can easily wear down Rev before it can set up enough to break the team. Stall straights up walls it. So now we have a sweeper that doesnt fit on the three main playstyles and one that cannot sweep them without otherwise making the team fail against other more efficent threats.

So how do we change that? We stop trying to make Rev a Bulk Up sweeper, as it cannot execute this role in this generation, and instead let it develop into a Bulk Up Stallbreaker. And it currently only needs a few additions (a few moves, a new ability to beat stallmons) to fully flesh out this role.

I know I may come under fire for this suggestion, but the addition of Spirit Shackle could allow it to function quite well in this role.

 

[EPICflygon ( '-')>]

So i completely agree with G-Luke but, imo Revenankh should at least keep its identity as a "set up user" not be exclusively a "bulk up user" in the way of set up!

I also like the idea of it getting spirit shackle its also kinda fitting with its design, but it seems a bit Farfetch'd.

In terms of move poll i would kinda like to see agility on it as rev outs speeds scarf lele with 204+ speed after agility so rev can hope fully OHko.

NOTE: Im only posting move poll because G-Luke brought it up.

 

[En Passant]

Revenankh definitely needs to focus on stallbreaking and bulkiness over trying to sweep, because sometime this generation it will finally be joined in its Ghost/Fighting typing by Marshadow. This freak has 125/125 Attack and Speed, amazing STABs and coverage (plus Poison Jab for Fairies), and access to priority. There's no way Revenankh will ever be able to match Marshadow's ability to wreck face, so it needs to concentrate on taking advantage of its increased bulk (90/95/110 verses 90/80/90) to beat things.

 

[Deck Knight]

There's been some discussion and some custom matches done with Poison Heal Revenankh, and I'd like to share my thoughts on this.

I really want to avoid another DD Pyroak situation. I do not think Poison Heal in isolation rises to that level, however Poison Heal is very, very good. Pokemon that thrive in OU do so because they can carve out a specific niche that the metagame finds value in, and they are the best at filling that niche. I want to compare Revenankh to a Pokemon it will be very similar to historically if it it gets Poison Heal, Gliscor.

Note the only other moves I've assumed here are Phantom Force and Shadow Claw. Shadow Bone would generally remove the Power/Reliable drawback from below, as it can lower Defense and potentially snowball with little to resist it. Sacred Sword doesn't change the output equation much over Drain Punch, and Close Combat while incredibly powerful cuts into Rev's stall potential with low PP and drops to defenses, so it is unlikely to see use on a defensive PH set.

I have not considered the implications of Night Shade or Seismic Toss yet on these sets, but I do not think they would be overpowering given their opportunity cost. I do think other support moves MAY be overpowering in conjunction with Poison Heal, specifically Circle Throw as it does STAB damage and swaps out an opponent, potentially giving Revenankh another opportunity to set up another Substitute. Swords Dance would allow Rev to set up too quickly if combined with Close Combat, the latter of which I would still advocate for as it makes a Choice Band set a viable outlet for Rev's two other Abilities.

Lastly, I think Power-Up Punch would be a suitable and balanced substitution option for Bulk Up on a boosting set by allowing it to retain dual-STAB at the cost of not boosting Defense.

tl;dr I think Poison Heal's strengths limit other choices we might make for Revenankh, but not prohibitively so. More below:

Gliscor: 75/95/125/45/75/95
Ground / Flying

Pros:
Two STABs with good coverage together.
Access to Taunt and reliable healing outside Poison Heal (Roost)
Sufficient mixed bulk but with a focus on Defense.
Useful immunities (Electric, Ground)
Good general support: Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Toxic
Can run a mono-attacking boosting set: Swords Dance
Decent Speed Tier lets it Taunt a large number of defensive metagame threats with minimal or no speed investment.

Cons:
Massive 4x Ice weakness
Water weakness limits its utility against Scald even as a status absorber.
Often relies on Earthquake, which has a lot of different ways Pokemon can become immune to it.
Few options that actually combine with Substitute other than Protect.

Revenankh: 90/105/90/65/110/65
Ghost / Fighting

Two STABs with good coverage together.
STAB Phantom Force and STAB Focus Punch allow Rev to work behind or with Substitute for suitable offensive presence and reading the opponent.
Access to Taunt and reliable healing outside Poison Heal (Moonlight)
Sufficient mixed bulk with a bias towards Special Defense.
Useful immunities (Blocks Rapid Spin! + Fighting)
Good general support: Knock Off, Glare, Toxic
Can run a mono-attacking boosting set: Bulk Up

Cons:
Fairly slow.
Sets up slowly on the boosting set.
Psychic, Fairy, and Flying weaknesses are relatively exploitable thanks to Psychic Terrain and -Ate Abilities.
Individually its STABs are not as simultaneously powerful and reliable than Gliscor's Earthquake.

As long as we can keep these sets of statements true, I think we will avoid the potential "DDOak-ifying" of Revenankh.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Here's a little historical info from Revenankh's creation that may be interesting for those of you weighing out how to proceed with Rev's update. I am not posting this as an instruction to anyone, nor do I have ANY bias or preference in how Revenankh is updated. This is just a little CAP history lesson as it pertains to Revenankh, for whatever that is worth here.

As has already been said here, Revenankh did not have a formal concept, but the idea of being a Bulk Up user was a consistently mentioned thing during Revenankh's creation. At the time, there were examples of viable Calm Mind users in the metagame, but no Bulk Up users really. We posited that the reson for this was because no Pokemon had the right combination of typing, stats, and moves to really make use of Bulk Up in the same way as prominent CM mons. During discussion, Suicune was often mentioned as an archetype for Calm Mind abuse. We were not trying to replicate Suicune on the physical side, but it was the inspiration for the "bulky" aspects of Revenankh.

Another very big part of Revenankh's creation was the "experiment" with its abilities. There was a great deal of debate as to which Ability/Move combination would be most effective for Revenankh -- "LockLight versus ShedRest". At the time, distribution of outright reliable recovery was limited in the metagame, so CAP was reluctant to slap Recover or Slack Off on Revenankh, while also giving it stats and typing to abuse Bulk Up. Keep in mind the Suicune example was a reference point for us, and the thought of Suicune with Recover was roundly considered broken. But we wanted to give our Bulk Up mon something more than just Lefties or Rest.

The combination of Air Lock and Moonlight was theorized to be pretty good, after seeing that Moonlight by itself was not good enough with low PP and the prevalence of permanent Sand in the metagame, with Tyranitar and Hippowdon all over the place. Cresselia was bulky as hell, but still struggled with just Moonlight, or so it was said. By bringing Air Lock into the mix, we thought that might be just the nudge Moonlight needed. By the same token, we felt Shed Skin and Rest could also be viable, with a variable-but-probably-decreased Sleep time being the key ingredient to a winning, but not broken, recovery combo.

The community was divided, and it was greatly anticipated as to which one would be used most in real battles after we were done. You could consider that the first real CAP "playtest". Before then, we just put the pokemon on the CAP server and had fun with our new creation. With Revenankh, we legitimately wanted to see which ability+recovery move would prove to be the best. ShedRest won by a mile. In hindsight, it seems obvious that it would work out that way. But, at the time, it was a not a foregone conclusion. The excitement of that "experiment" also was a big driver in how I pushed CAP policy and process to try and incorporate learn-by-doing into CAP projects as much as possible.

I have no idea how Revenankh's update will go, but perhaps this walk down memory lane will help the rest of you, seeking to chart Rev's new path forward.

 

[reachzero]

After a lot of thinking about this, I've decided to jump on the Poison Heal bandwagon. I have several considerations in deciding this.

Direct Damage Boosting requires maximum investment in attack, and is vulnerable to status crippling

If Revenankh uses Adaptability or Tough Claws, it will have to use max Attack and and moderate to high speed investment to get the most out of its ability. This means not maxing out your special bulk, and that limits the number of things you can realistically switch into. Pheromosa is the best thing Revenankh can easily switch into, good. But this can't be the only good switch in for Rev, since is Pheromosa U-turns out to Tapu Lele or Fini, you're still behind on momentum. What Revenankh really wants to be able to do is to be able to switch in on Mollux, Pyroak, defensive Cyclohm, etc.: weak special attackers. In this regard, Revenankh is similar to Arghonaut: it is designed to do be bulky and do damage, but if it is bulky, it won't do enough damage, and if you build it to do maximum damage, it won't be bulky enough to actually switch in. Even if Revenankh hit reasonably hard, it'd still be slow. What we did for Voodoom isn't going to work here. Moreover, stuff like Mollux, Pyroak and Cyclohm spam status. You don't feel it so badly right now because of Shed Skin, but Tough Claws Revenankh is going to end up useless a lot when it is hit by Lava Plume and burned, or Discharge and paralyzed.

Adding another Tomohawk-weak Pokemon to Sand won't help Sand

I haven't really seen strong Sand teams in CAP anyway, since Tomohawk shuts down so many of the pieces that make them work. Revenankh can't beat Tomohawk or Skarmory, and doesn't help Sand to take Water or Grass type attacks, the issues that plague Sand teams in CAP.

Poison Heal keeps Revenankh close to its roots--Bulk Up

Poison Heal would allow Revenankh to abuse Substitute, which is by far its best solution for not dying to Tapu Lele, Fini, Landorus-T, Tomohawk, etc. A Zygarde-like set of Substitute/(Toxic or Glare)/Bulk Up/(Ghost attack) would allow it to set up on stuff like Mollux and Pyroak without fearing status. It can unashamedly invest in HP and SpD, since it is relying on boosts to do damage. In other words, it functions similarly to Zygarde, but with worse PTank, slighty better STank, and substantially worse speed, compensated by Poison Heal.

Deck Knight has raised concerns that Poison Heal Revenankh would be overpowered. In practice, I think this will work out okay. First of all, the comparison to Gliscor is a strange one, since Gliscor is presently UU and rated as B-rank in the current OU Viability Rankings, which is hardly burning up the metagame. I do think, however, that a Sub/Bulk Up/Status Revenankh set is much better than Gliscor. Here are the Pokemon that I imagine keeping it under control.

--Toxapex: Immune to Toxic and doesn't care much about Glare, totally walling Revenankh, especially with Haze. This is long and ugly PP stall, however.
--Tapu Fini: Moonblast would stop Bulk Up Revenankh for the same reasons it stops Bulk Up Zygarde, easier in fact because it's faster than Revenankh.
--Skarmory with Brave Bird and Whirlwind: already useful for several reasons in the metagame.
--Colossoil: unless Revenankh is running Fighting coverage, obviously. Without status, Revenankh is much more vulnerable to Tomohawk, Bulu etc, however.
--Figdit with Encore

Revenankh is also held in check by its speed, which practically guarantees that it is slower than almost everything that isn't abusing Trick Room, while it is faster than everything than actually abuses Trick Room.

Note also that like Zygarde, this sort of Sub boosting will also be checked heavily by Mega Gardevoir and Mega Altaria if and when those are released.

Poison Heal solves every issue with Revenankh that offensive boosting abilities and Sand Rush leave unresolved, while remaining balanced. It keeps Revenankh close to its Bulk Up-focused roots, and maintains continuity far better than any other ability mentioned so far.

 

[Deck Knight]

While I think Rev could pull off a Zygarge-like set, against Toxapex all Revanankh has to do is run Taunt, which it already gets. Sub/Taunt/Bulk Up/Shadow Claw would be fairly effective against Stall. I believe Skarm still beats it, but is severely weakened in the process - it's worth running Spe 44 EVs on a Taunt set to outrun Skarm.

Poison Heal gives Revenankh a lot of freedom in building its set to team needs. I think this is a positive trait and one common to viable Pokemon.

I'd also like to mention that even Attack-focused Revs can work with Poison Heal. 252+ Focus Punch hits like a truck, and good reads along with Substitute make it a viable option if you want the second STAB over Bulk Up or Toxic.

 

[Bughouse]

I'm somewhat concerned with Poison Heal distracting from Revenankh's main purpose by being too generally strong. It's a crazy powerful ability. Breloom with its mediocre defensive typing and 60/80/60 bulk could run bulky sets that were immensely threatening in DPP and BW. Gliscor with its much better bulk and defensive typing is even scarier. Now we give it to something even more generally bulky than Gliscor and with possibly better yet defensive typing... I'm a bit concerned.

While I hate proposing a signature ability, Comatose would be a much better way for Revenankh to avoid being Statused without giving it double lefties recovery and the possibility of being a DD Pyroak. Also why should we be incentivizing Revenankh to run sub/tect sets? That has nothing to do with Bulk Up at all.

As a downside, Comatose means no more Rest, but it does still have Moonlight and TTar isn't exactly coming in to set up Sand on Revenankh any time soon due to Fighting STAB.

 

[G-Luke]

As the guy to initially suggest Poison Heal, think I should defend my suggestion. Substitute + Bulk Up is actually a very good set, and would replace the more outdated ShedRest Bulk Up sets.

Breloom's Poison Heal sets have been non existent since the start of Gen 6, and Gliscor is currently not that relevant to Gen 7 OU nor the CAP metagame, and I'd argue quite well that Gliscor's defensive typing is better in this meta.

I don't see how Comatose solves much of Rev's issues. Rev's main issue isnt being plagued by status conditions. Poison Heal itself does much more than that for it; I outlined what it did in a previous post.

Also, this DD Pyroak issue that keeps popping up, needs to tone down. DD Pyroak was a rash and complete readjustment of Pyroak's identity. Adding Poison Heal unto Rev does not do what DD Pyroak did.

 

[Wenderz]

I support Poison Heal on Revenankh as I don't think it will be that Dangerous, and maybe less than Zygarde. Revenankh, on a SubBU set, can slowly shut down many threat with either Toxic or Taunt, but faster Taunt by some Pokemon like Tomohawk, Tornadus-T, Fidgit and mostly Tapu Fini makes him useless. Against offenses, Revenankh could have trouble to set-up in front of Wallbreakers or bulky Mon with super effective coverage like Magearna, Mawile or Pinsir. Stall teams have also several way to deal with him: Skarmory, Mega-Sableye with another move than Knock Off, Tomohawk who can stop Rev way before dying from Poison, Toxapex with Haze if Rev doesn't have Taunt (even though it can't do much outside of removing boost) and some UU Mon still revelant in CAP like Clefable, who can heal herself from Poison with Heal bell if she is Unaware, and Togekiss.

A SubPunch set could work well too, especially if we give it other moves like Phantom Force, although it doesn't hit as hard as Buzzwole or the old Breloom.

DD Pyroak had very few counter, if none (Defensive Salamence was maybe the only one because of Intimidate, Latias and Dragonite were close, but Oak had Dragon Claw and Stone Edge, Heatrancountered him only if he didn't have EQ...). Poison Heal Rev in SM clearly doesn't reach the same level.

 

[Deck Knight]

From my most recent PM with KrazyCake:

Thank you for all the great ideas/talks I can see that the general consensus is leaning towards giving rev a competitive so I don't think we need to Pokemon-Go-To-The-Polls just yet, however, I do see a split between what the nature of this ability would be one-half wants a direct boosting offensive ability i.e Adaptability, Sand Rush. While the other half wants a more passive/defensive one i.e Poison Heal. So it really comes down to Bulky Defensive Rev vs Bulky Offensive Rev. So I'd like to provide my opinions on both sides. Before we get into questions I'd like to give my opinions on both sides!

Opinions of a Bulky Offensive Revenankh

This goes without saying but Revenankh would really love some extra power as it's currently suffering because of many power creeps, it's unable to justify its place on most teams and put quite frankly, it hits like a paper bag, so giving Revenankh an offensive ability would really help it make use of its greatest strength it's unresisted STABs this in turn would make Revenakh a very capable fighter. You see Revenakh isn't only weakened by its mediocre attack stat its speed also leaves much to be desired being outsped by almost the whole tier. In terms of offensive abilities to give Revenankh, I've seen quite a lot of interesting ideas but all in all most people seem to be gravitating towards things like Adaptability, Tough Claws, and Sand Rush so I'm going to focus on these three. Adaptability and Tough Claws both directly boost Revenankhs attack Adapt makes STAB moves

Opinions of a Bulky Defensive Revenankh

Revenakh has some very nice defensive stats while not being the best they are


Should we go with an offensive or defensive ability?
In terms of offensive abilities what options are there aside from the abilities on the black list?

 

[KrazyCake]

First of all, I'd like to apologise for my speed; I really wanted to have this posted sooner but irl things came up, I know it's very unprofessional of me to hold if off for this long and I'll do better in the future I hope you all can forgive me.

Thank you for all the great ideas/talks I can see that the general consensus is leaning towards giving rev a competitive ability so I don't think we need to Pokemon-Go-To-The-Polls just yet, however, I do see a split between what the nature of this ability would be one-half wants a direct boosting offensive ability i.e Adaptability, Sand Rush. While the other half wants a more passive/defensive one i.e Poison Heal. So it really comes down to Defensive Rev vs Offensive Rev. So I'd like to provide my opinions on both sides. Before we get into questions I'd like to give my opinions on both sides!

Opinions of an Offensive Revenankh

This goes without saying but Revenankh would really love some extra power as it's currently suffering because of many power creeps, it's unable to justify its place on most teams and put quite frankly, it hits like a paper bag, so giving Revenankh an offensive ability would really help it make use of its greatest strength it's unresisted STABs this in turn would make Revenakh a very capable fighter. You see Revenakh isn't only weakened by its mediocre attack stat its speed also leaves much to be desired, being outsped by almost the whole tier isn't very nice. In terms of offensive abilities to give Revenankh, I've seen quite a lot of interesting ideas but all in all most people seem to be gravitating towards things like Adaptability, Tough Claws, and Sand Rush so I'm going to focus on these three.

Adaptability and Tough Claws both directly boost Revenankhs attack Adaptability boosts its STAB attacks changing the STAB bonus from x1.5 to x2 this would help Rev hit a lot harder with its STAB moves a bit like what Crawdaunt does, Tough Claws, on the other hand, directly boosts Revenankhs attack stat by x1.3 which would change Revenankhs attack from 339 to a whopping 449 when max invested, let me put that into perspective for you maxed Pheromosa has 410 in attack maxed Mega Crucibelle has 405 and maxed non-banded Tyranitar has 403, put simply it's a nice attack stat to have!

Now onto the rather interesting ability Sand Rush this ability doubles a Pokemon's speed when a sandstorm is active and as I've said before Revenankhs speed stat leave much to be desired so giving it rush would be very useful, how useful you may ask being able to outspeed Tapu Koko useful, as Sand Rush would give Revenankh 502 in speed when max invested during a sandstorm, this in turn would make Rev one of the fastest CAP Pokemon sharing this title with Stratagem having this much speed would make Rev a very potent threat during a storm and with max evs in speed it'd be able to outspeed Scarfed Tapu Lele and Pheromosa, but, this brings me to my biggest problem with the ability sandstorm is only tempory and when it runs out what is Revenakh going to do? As we've established before Rev doesn't hit very hard so you'd most likely have to spend most of your turns setting up, so when the sandstorm ends you'll be stuck with the measly 65 speed stat once again those turns you'd use to set up could be used elsewhere i.e breaking through the enemy team. What I'm trying to say here is that if Revenakh did get Sand Rush it'd have to use Glare to get anywhere, a fast glare user would be really scary and I'm just not sure how healthy it's going to be for the meta.

So with those three abilities out of the way, I'm going to talk about the main issue with making Revenankh offensive, this has been said by others before so this isn't anything new, but, back when Revenakh was good it was used to check most special attackers by investing in its bulk if we go down the offensive route we Rev wouldn't want to invest anything in bulk basically wasting it's great defensive stats.

Opinions of a Defensive Revenankh

Revenakh has some amazing defensive stats and is able to check quite a few top tier Pokemon the real thing holding it back defensively in my eyes is its typing (Ghost/Fighting) as it is constantly harassed by fairy types and can hardly hold it's own against them. I've seen some suggested defensive abilities so far but nothing that has gotten as much traction as Poison Heal so this is what I'll be talking about! I must say that I was never a very big fan of this idea at first but after seeing some of the arguments made for it I must say that it's starting to look like a good idea. PHeal good for recovery very good, the fact that Revenakh doesn't get any great recovery options aside from Air Lock + Moonlight is saddening, so in comes Poison Heal to save the day right? My answer to this is probably, you see Revenakh is easily forced out in most battles because as I've said its typing is doing it no favours, Poison Heal doesn't really help with any of that at all, when you see a threat coming in most of what Revenakh could do is set up a substitute and then do what stall it?

What I'm trying to get at is without a substitute up Revenakh can't really do much at least in my eyes, but what I can say is that once Revenankh has a substitute up it's going to be doing a lot it'll be able to wither almost anything down with Toxic and then be able to set up by using Bulk Up this, in turn, would make Revenakh a formidable opponent and an excellent stall breaker.

With that being all said and done I'd like to address one issue I have with going defensive, Revenankh won't be able to make full use of its unresisted STAB combo, revs typing at least from what I think is best used offensively.

Final thoughts

I can see both of these options as being good for Revenakh but the real question is, what do we want to waste? If we went offensive Revenankhs great defences would most likely go to waste, and if we went defensive it's amazing STAB coverage won't get used to its full potential. So tl;dr Adaptability and Tough Claws are great but are held back by Revenankhs really low speed. Sand Rush fixes Revenankhs speed issue but makes it extremely reliable on a sandstorm to get anywhere. Poison Heal is very easy to add to Revenakh and will help it to slowly were down most of its threats, but rev is easy to force out and won't really do much without a substitute up at least in my eyes. With all that said done, I'll leave you lovely people with some new questions.

• Should we go with an offensive or defensive ability?

• If we go with a defensive or offensive Revenankh what specific role should we make it fill?

I'd like to thank all the people who gave replays it was really rather nice of you <3

 

[Garbagery]

defensive ability

it'd fullfil a stallbreaker role. I mean of course it has to speed creep now, but it can handle it with its bulk and bulk ups. The most likely candidate is toxic heal so it'd be like the combination of a zygrade and a subpunch breloom.

 

[nv]

Should we go with an offensive or defensive ability?

• I feel like we need to air on the side of an offensive ability for Revenankh. The reason being is the fact that Rev has such a great neutral STAB combination, hitting almost every Pokemon neutrally with either its Ghost or Fighting STAB. The other reason for this is that I believe Poison Heal (the only ability I see being repped for a defensive Revenankh) is not going to fix the issues being brought up by users, which is that Revenankh is too slow and not as powerful with the power creep that has been introduced in every generation since its creation. Furthermore, I believe we have more "flexibility" when it comes to choosing an offensive ability in terms of movepool updates and whatnot as it already has the tools to be an effective "defensive Revenankh" if it wants (Sub, Taunt, Toxic) as well as having multiple options up for choosing on the offensive side. In conclusion, I believe that an offensive ability will better serve Revenankh's typing and goal as it needs to take advantage of its STABs and decent Attack. This doesn't mean however, that I can't be convinced for a defensive approach so long as Poison Heal isn't a part of the equation.

If we go with a defensive or offensive Revenankh what specific role should we make it fill?

• Since I am wanting an offensive approach taken with Revenankh, I do believe we want to capitalize on its great STAB coverage, as it hits a lot of things neutrally. This is why I personally feel like Adaptability is a fantastic ability choice as it allows Revenankh to take advantage of its fantastic STABs while providing it with an overall power boost. Tough Claws would be an ok option to help power up its coverage, but I feel like we should focus on Revenankh's STABs as that is where it shines the most imo. Furthermore, I feel like we can accomplish a wallbreaker role with Adaptability, which would allow Revenankh to take advantage of its bulk while also abusing its decent base 105 Attack stat.

Hopefully I answered the questions since this is my first time trying to contribute "competitively" to CAP and s/o to KrazyCake for pushing me to make this post n_n

 

[snake]

I think I'm going to have to throw my support behind a defensive ability, particularly Poison Heal. While offensive Revenankh can and would work, as it does have excellent natural bulk, it's main problem is that with its lower speed, it won't get off too many attacks and be able to recover of any damage it takes with uninvested bulk. Strong priority would definitely be an asset with the offensive ability, and the switches that Revenankh can force will help as well.

If we go for a defensive ability, I'd like it to help Revenankh be a stallbreaker most, given its stat bias. I'd also argue that Poison Heal isn't as defensive as it seems. The same switches Revenankh forces allows it to capitalize on setting up Substitute, allowing it to make full use of Poison Heal's recovery. Combined with Focus Punch and/or (maybe) Phantom Force, Revenankh can circumvent its lower Attack stat (which is still decent!) by simply hitting the opponent more times with higher Base Power moves. Poison Heal also allows Revenankh to have more freedom with EVs too. If you want a more offensive Revenankh that hits harder with Focus Punch, dump your EVs into Attack. If you want one whose Subs doesn't break to defensive Pokemon's weaker attacks, dump your EVs into Special Defense.

Revenankh @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Shadow Sneak / Phantom Force
- Toxic / Protect / Bulk Up

Offensive Examples
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Revenankh: 404-476 (125.8 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Pyroak Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Revenankh: 76-91 (19.7 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO

Revenankh @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Shadow Sneak / Phantom Force
- Toxic / Protect / Bulk Up

Defensive Examples
4 Atk Revenankh Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 118-141 (39.2 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Pyroak Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Revenankh: 57-67 (14.8 - 17.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

On mobile, sorry if calcs don't make the most sense, but hopefully you can see what I mean. Bulk Up is possible for stallbreaking, and Focus Punch gives Skarmorh trouble when it's trying to Roost (I'm pretty sure that it'll be hit super effectively after Roost removes Flying-type).

tl;dr Poison Heal gives Revenankh choices (save for the item), which allows it to take an offensive or defensive stance, even with a "defensive ability." While offensive would work, Poison Heal imo is a better option.

 

[Deck Knight]

Where I'd like to focus discussion a little more is that I don't feel other defensive abilities has been fleshed out, and I don't think its proper to start building a poll slate that is essentially Offensive Ability/Offensive Ability/Poison Heal/NCA.

What other Defensive Abilities would work for Revenankh?

I'd like to pursue a few more alternatives before we move on to a vote. Defensive is a direction, not a mandate for Poison Heal.

 

[reachzero]

There are several issues with making an offensive ability work. The worst issues are with Sand Rush, but every offensive ability shares certain problems.

Stat Distribution

Revenankh's BST is a bit low by today's standards, but that by itself is not a death knell--it has about the same BST as Greninja, and of course far more than Skarmory. The issue is that roles are impacted more by stat distribution then by anything else: if you moved 20 stat points from Greninja's Speed to its Defense, it would become noticeably worse. Revenankh's stats are distributed for it to be a special tank--it has much more offensive presence than Chansey or Skarmory, but it is slow and bulky. Precedent suggests that powerful, bulky Pokemon with low speed do not reach OU--good examples of this are Azumarill and Conkeldurr, each of which are also priority users. Granted, neither has Moonlight, but Azumarill in particular has much better defensive typing than Revenankh.

Low Base Power Attacks

Even with boosted attack, Revenankh has low base power attacks to work with, limiting its immediate power. The highest base power Ghost attack it could realistically use is base 85 (Shadow Bone or Shadow Strike), which is ok but a far cry from Earthquake or Wood Hammer. That is fine on a more defensive Pokemon, but hard to accept on a slow attacker, which has to blow stuff up to be effective, a la Alolan Marowak.

Low Speed means investing EVs to hit mediocre benchmarks

Max Speed Adamant Revenankh hits 229, which is enough to outspeed defensive Tomohawk and AV Colossoil (usually), but not though to outspeed CM Naviathan or the Pokemon that like to speed creep it (Zygarde, Landorus-T, etc). Jolly would help, but that would require cutting into Revenankh's power once again. To hit even those benchmarks, however, Revenankh is divesting so heavily from it's defenses that it can no longer be comfortably switched in on even moderate neutral attacks. That transitions directly into the next issue:

Offensive Revenankh lacks opportunities to switch in

Shed Skin or Poison Heal Rev can switch in without much trouble on Mollux and Pyroak, without fear of being Poisoned or Burned. Tough Claws Rev would have no such luxury. Revenankh's best resistance is U-turn, but that means facing a Psychic or Fairy or Flying attack when its counter is brought in , and almost certainly switching out. Without the status protection afforded by one of these abilities, offensive Revenankh would find it hard to even get in. Certainly it could be brought in via U-turn or Volt Switch, but Revenankh doesn't really threaten the things that resist these, certainly not as well as most Psychics do.

All of these factors make a defensive ability a far more efficient way to emphasize what Revenankh does well while mitigating its weaknesses.

 

[G-Luke]

Where I'd like to focus discussion a little more is that I don't feel other defensive abilities has been fleshed out, and I don't think its proper to start building a poll slate that is essentially Offensive Ability/Offensive Ability/Poison Heal/NCA.

What other Defensive Abilities would work for Revenankh?

I'd like to pursue a few more alternatives before we move on to a vote. Defensive is a direction, not a mandate for Poison Heal.

I did bring up Mummy and Filter when I first brought up Poison Heal, and Regenerator was also brought up.

 

[snake]

Sorry about that long plug for Poison Heal Deck Knight. I'd finally gotten my thoughts together about it. I'll post again with some other suggestions to compensate. Since I'm still on mobile and don't have much time, I'll throw them on the wall and hope they stick.

Obviously this one's a powerful ability, but Regenerator would help out Revenankh's ability to act as a pivot. Combine this with Will-O-Wisp, and you've got a solid pivot, if we want to take it that direction.

Another that would work well with Will-O-Wisp is Filter. Since it's really hard for Revenankh to circumvent powerful Psychic- and Flying-type attacks, taking less damage would let it have some breathing room. Filter turns Mega Metagross's Zen Headbutt from a clean OHKO to a 2HKO (89% max I think) on Max HP / 4 Def for reference.

These two abilities should give Revenankh some breathing room with EVs too like Poison Heal. I still support Poison Heal, but these two should probably get some discussion, even if they're really strong. Better to hate on an ability than not discuss it at all.

EDIT: getting sniped is NEATO!!

Fully agree with reachzero's post.

 

[Deck Knight]

So after looking at the Ability List and thinking of a few defensive abilities that might also work for Rev, here's what I've come up with:

Fire Resistance Abilities: Heatproof or Thick Fat

What Fire Resistance does is improve Revenankh's matchups against several offensive and defensive threats, specifically Charizard-X, Charizard-Y, Mollux, Pyroak, Volkraken, and Volcarona. Althrough Revenankh still does not like the potential burns from strong Fire-typed attacks, if Revenankh is behind a Substitute it effortlessly tanks Mollux and Pyroak Lava Plume on defensive sets.

252 SpA Mollux Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatproof Revenankh: 45-54 (11.7 - 14%) -- possibly the worst move ever <-- Rev's Sub could potentially survive two Lava Plumes from Mollux. Pyroak's can't even take it out in 3 hits.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatproof Revenankh: 135-159 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- 69.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery <-- Rev effortlessly switches into Specs Fire Blast. It sets up on Scarf Fire Blast, as it can't even break Rev's Substitute.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatproof Revenankh: 135-159 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- 69.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery <-- But muh Drought... Forcing Zard-Y to run Air Slash over Focus Blast for Rev would be a big deal.

As to the choice between the abilities, Heatproof provides Rev the ability to still heal from Leftovers if it does get burned, while obviously Thick Fat adds the Ice resistance. Revenankh is already pretty good at taking Ice Beams though, and the biggest Ice-type threat, Kyu-B, doesn't care about Ability anyway.

Of course, the Calcs given are for full SpD investment. Obviously with the resistance Rev doesn't need that investment to have its Substitute tank the weaker Fire moves, and if we go with Thick Fat Revenankh gets even more opportunities to switch in on baited Ice-type moves from partners like Dragonite or Landorus-T.

Either way, I think Fire Resistance abilities provide a defensive competitor to Poison Heal, give Revenankh more splashability on viable teams, and it does not entirely overshadow Shed Skin.

- - - - -

I've generally been unimpressed with Filter calculations, and of the immunity ability or other abilities I looked at (Stamina, "Magic" Abilites) I couldn't find any that really fit Revenakh's role. Regenerator is a solid idea, but it's also generically good. It does recover enough to use a Sub though after switching into Stealth Rock, so it does have that going for it.

 

[En Passant]

I mentioned this earlier as well, but Marshadow arguably outclasses offensive Revenankh. Here are some calcs:

Raw Damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 156-185 (45.7 - 54.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Revenankh Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 154-182 (45.1 - 53.3%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Revenankh Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 150-177 (43.9 - 51.9%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 470-554 (137.8 - 162.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Revenankh Shadow Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 372-440 (109 - 129%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 314-372 (92 - 109%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Revenankh Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 248-296 (72.7 - 86.8%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 131-155 (38.4 - 45.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Revenankh Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 152-179 (44.5 - 52.4%)

Marshadow's STABs are just better, even with Adaptability, and Technician Shadow Sneak is not to be trifled with. Tough Claws gets you a fair boost on coverage moves, however...
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Revenankh Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 193-228 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Revenankh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 194-230 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
... it's still barely more effective than spamming STABs at x2 effectiveness.

Relevant Threats

252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 330-390 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Revenankh Shadow Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 254-300 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 126-148 (52 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Revenankh Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 96-114 (39.6 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 184-217 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Revenankh Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 141-166 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 204-240 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Revenankh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 234-276 (56.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 314-372 (116.2 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Revenankh Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 242-288 (89.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 336-396 (118.7 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Revenankh Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 258-304 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Notable threats that are beat by speed by Marshadow and not Revenankh: Tapu Lele, TG Aurumoth, Mollux, Megagross, Cawmodore, Kerfuffle, Syclant
Notable threats that are beat by tanking by Revenankh and not Marshadow: QD Aurumoth, Tomohawk, Celesteela

In conclusion, I guess you could run offensive Revenankh depending on your team comp, but Marshadow is generally superior. I ran all these calcs using Hammer Arm over Drain Punch because it's a power competition. There are likely a decent number of threats that are one beats better than the other based on the power difference and health drain of Drain, but a glance it doesn't change the outcome too much.

 

[KrazyCake]

I'd like everyone not to centre their arguments around unreleased Pokemon i.e Marshadow

You can still talk about it but please don't base your whole arguments around it.

Bringing up Marshadow as a reason why offensive Revenankh is a bad idea is like comparing Buzzwole with Pheromosa, one of them is faster and one is tankier they both still play offensively and are used in completely different ways, so please don't compare the two as they are both two completely different Pokemon.